mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (April-June) » 1999 » Fictional Irish-Latin offshoot language « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Selina
Posted on Friday, September 10, 1999 - 05:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm a writer and I'm creating a civilisation that originated on the north-west coast of Ireland around 800AD. Many of the founders came from a monastic background so I envisage them ending up speaking a language that's a mixture of Irish and Latin. Any idea what that would sound like? its grammer etc? I know no Irish.

Incidentally, would Séamus be a possible name for my founder or was that not in use then? Anyone know?

And is 'Rodhlann' a real name and what would its translation be?

Thanks.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Máire Ní Ógáin (fwout.corel.ie - 194.106.141.209)
Posted on Friday, September 10, 1999 - 12:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You might find something along those lines in a recently reissued book called The Secret Languages of Ireland... I think I recall some sort of Latin/Irish hybrid being discussed in it. I'll check it out and tell you more if I find it.

Rodhlann would be pronounced Rolan as in Roland without the D, so that's probably what it's a translation of.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Madra (1cust193.tnt4.bos2.da.uu.net - 63.22.97.193)
Posted on Monday, September 13, 1999 - 01:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Selina,
There actually was a Latin form peculiar to
Ireland. It is sometimes refered to as
Hiberno-Latin or Insular Latin. A good place to
start looking is a book called Medieval Ireland,
The Enduring Tradition, by Michael Richter. This
book should give you some ideas and also other
places to look for this form of Celtisized
Latin.............................................
..........................................

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Madra (1cust193.tnt4.bos2.da.uu.net - 63.22.97.193)
Posted on Monday, September 13, 1999 - 01:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Post Script:
Look in the index under language, and check out
the bibleography..............................

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Máire Ní Ógáin (fwout.corel.ie - 194.106.141.209)
Posted on Monday, September 13, 1999 - 04:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, I checked it out... there is a whole chapter in The Secret Languages of Ireland by R. A. Stewart MacAlister (reprinted by Craobh Rua Books, Armagh, 1997), p89-122 "Bog-Latin," which details how this Irish-Latin hybrid was formed, who used it etc. and there are several pages of vocabulary, too. It was mostly a slang, not a proper language.

If you're writing a book in English, I'd imagine the best way to go about handling these characters and their Irish/Latin language would be to have them speak in normal, non-idiomatic English and create a small vocabulary of Irish/Latin words peculiar to them.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Selina
Posted on Thursday, September 16, 1999 - 07:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks, Máire. I have, amazingly, read that book. I should probably go back to it, but since I didn't take notes or anything like that I can't have found it very relevant. It was the sum total of my university library's catalogue entries under 'Irish language'. I guess there's no great demand for such things in Tasmania.

Creating a small Irish/Latin vocabulary isn't going to be easy. I will have to search the smaller bookshops for an Irish dictionary, my Latin is next to non-existent, and, well, I established in my head certain made-up names for political institutions and the like before I'd even decided on having my society originate in Ireland. They're well-entrenched. How Irish do 'jafusila' 'dluxi' and 'samaryen' (pronounced SAH-mar-yen) sound?

And how much of what I learn about modern Gaelic is going to be relevant to ninth-century Gaelic?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Máire Ní Ógáin (fwout.corel.ie - 194.106.141.209)
Posted on Thursday, September 16, 1999 - 12:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Virtually none of it... no more than modern English would prepare you to read or write Old English.

The names you mentioned don't sound Irish at all, I'm afraid. I would have guessed at Arabic! Irish doesn't use the letters 'j,' 'y' or 'x' at all except in words stolen from English in the last thirty years or so.

I would definitely recommend getting hold of The Secret Languages of Ireland again and stealing a few words from the Irish/Latin vocabulary list and just incorporating them into normal English.

Alternatively, there's a chapter in the same book on Irish Traveller (Gipsy) vocabulary, then called Shelta, a lot of which sounds fairly Irish, but incorporates a lot of exotic sounds, too - maybe you could get away with that.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Selina
Posted on Friday, September 17, 1999 - 03:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Alternatively, I can always argue language drift. The novel is set in the present day, so the language has had twelve hundred years to change.

Okay, I'll get back the Secret Languages book and look for words I like the sound of. If it doesn't sound right, I won't be able to get used to using it. If that fails, I'll just derive them from Latin (at least then I and my readers will feel the meanings through cognates).

Researching from half a world away on a limited budget it proving awkward. Can this discussion group answer for me more general questions such as 'Can I expect my monastical founders to be conversant with Aristotle?'

Is there someplace else on the internet I can find people who know about medieval Ireland, because I have many more questions. The information simply doesn't exist in libraries where I am.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

seamus o'murchu (207.79.70.74 - 207.79.70.74)
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 1999 - 01:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I remember reading in collection of translated works of Saint Aquinas (a penguin book)that the church before his time was comfortable only with PLato's works. Aquinas' innovation was the translation and reconcilitation of Aristotle with church teaching. He was suspected of heresy, but his views eventualy became orthodoxy. I believe he died on the trip he was making to defend himself at some sort of tribunal. Insular Celts would be behind the curve regarding these continental events.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 1999 - 02:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Peter Berresford Ellis wrote a book on the Celtic Church which you might find useful:-
Celtic Inheritance ISBN 0 09 471370 7, published by Constable
I don't agree that Insular Celts would be behind the curve, since some Greek and roman literature was preserved in Ireland and brought back to Europe by missonaries. But I think the works of Aristotle were brought back by the Arabs.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.


©Daltaí na Gaeilge