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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (April-June) » Plural pronunciation of deartháireacha « Previous Next »

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RobinF (66.87.137.230 - 66.87.137.230)
Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I must have listened to the tape a hundred times and I can't match this one -- my dictionary (Foclóir Scoile) says the singular is [d'arha:r'] or [d'r'aha:r']. Plural -eacha.

The tapes (in Ulster irish) seem to add 'uh-ha' (sorry, no schwa in this font, I guess) for the plural form, but Learning Irish suggests -i:?

And, when I say it, I end up with too many syllables..I'm not sure where they come from, but this word is killing me!

Can someone try to spell this out in English (I know, everyone hates to do it, but maybe if I can see the e-x-p-a-n-d-e-d pronunciation, it'll make sense?) -- Go raibh maith agaibh! -- Robin

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.109.164 - 159.134.109.164)
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 04:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

This is how mise says it:

Jer Hawr Uck A


People in Ulster don't pronounce "ch" in the middle of a word. eg.

buachaill -> boohil

If it comes at the end of the word, they turn it into "a".

brónach -> bróna


It's just how their accent works. For instance, I myself don't pronounce a "t" at the end of a syllable or word. eg.

just -> jus

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Celtoid (64.12.116.136 - 64.12.116.136)
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Agus mise: "drawer uh kuy" (closest I got).

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RobinF (192.18.101.5 - 192.18.101.5)
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 11:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agaibh -- that's exactly what I needed. I think I've got it now. I don't know why this particular combination threw me so badly.

As for buachaill, my tapes (Irish on your Own) do seem to have a faint 'ch' in the middle, but when it's said quickly, it disappears. Thank you!-- Robin

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OCG (82.69.43.174 - 82.69.43.174)
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 08:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

My version:

DRE-HAWR-UH-HAH

A bit like that anyways...

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jimNuaEabhrac (67.81.112.66 - 67.81.112.66)
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

This has been bothering me, is there any logic to the "a" at the end of some plurals being "ah" and some being "i:" ?

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.109.128 - 159.134.109.128)
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 08:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

...Haven't you notice the total lack of logic in the spelling system altogther? plumber receipt debris.

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Jonas (213.243.178.60 - 213.243.178.60)
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 09:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

This has been bothering me, is there any logic to the "a" at the end of some plurals being "ah" and some being "i:" ?

Hm, I don't quite understand the question. Plurals ending in í are of course pronounced /i:/ while those ending in a is pronounced /a/. This is the case both in the standard and in most dialects. If you develop the question I'll try to answer in more detail.

Haven't you notice the total lack of logic in the spelling system altogther?

Well, it isn't that unlogic is it? I admit that it is more complexed rules than for most other European languages but compared to English it is simplicity itself.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.109.128 - 159.134.109.128)
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

My argument:

When you see a word in English or in Gaeilge that you've never seen before, you don't know how to pronounce it.

Gaeilge ofcourse is a lot better, ie. fadas, much less irregular spellings (plumber), but still there's ambiguity when it comes to stress and diphthongs.


Another thing: Both English and Gaeilge have aids embedded in them for people just learning the language. The other day I was watching TG4; there was a game show on, and I heard the presenter say "planéd na núiseanna". I didn't have a little leprechaun on my shoulder that said, "Hey, he's saying, Pláinéad na nDuiseanna". I, as a proficient know-er of the language, had to interpret it myself. You don't have the following in the written languge:

plainéad na núiseanna
Fioc mise an adhb

You have:

plainéad na ndúiseanna
Phioc mise an fhadhb

This is absolutley unneccessary... but just think of the havoc it would cause for learners of the language!

Even in English:

their there they're
sole soul
your you're

There's no need for them! In text messages, Gaeilge or English, you'd see:

R u der yet?is der friend gona be der?

And similarly in Gaeilge.


But... then there's stress. A spelling difference is necessary with:

to too two
for four

Without distiguished spellings, we wouldn't have a clue about the stress, and thus ambiguity would insue!


Here's my opinion:

The written language of English and Gaeilge are both crap, but they are adequate.

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Jim,NuaEabhrac (130.156.27.75 - 130.156.27.75)
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks so much for taking time to respond to me. Yesterday was father's day and busy. I am at work now and can't properly formulate my question but....

I just gave a listen to dialog 6 from "learning irish" and it sound like "busanna" definitely has an "i:" at the end. I will quote the proper apendix after the kids are in bed tonight.

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (212.209.194.26 - 212.209.194.26)
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jim, on the top of page 11 of Learning Irish it says:

"All plural forms of more than one syllable ending in -cha, -nna, nta, -oga are pronounced as though spelt -chaí, -nnaí, -ógaí, ... "

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.242.196 - 213.94.242.196)
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 11:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

NO WAY!! Not with mise in anyway! What dialect is that?!

I pronounce them as a flat 'a', as in "dad".

I suppose it's definitely possible that some people talk like that though; the Glasgow accent sounds pretty funky to me, they seem to stick í at the end of a lot of their words. Their vowels are very different to mine too!

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Jonas (213.243.178.60 - 213.243.178.60)
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

You are both perfectly right. It does say so in Learning Irish, I remember believing it to be some kind of standard myself when I first learned Irish. It's not. Yes, that pronunciation is indeed the one in Cois Fhairrge, but it's definitely not the general pronunciation.

Learning Irish is an excellent book as long as the learner remember that it teaches one specific dialect of Irish - some learners think that the Irish in Learning Irish is the "correct" Irish and that speakers of other dialects make mistakes when they don't follow Cois Fhairrge. When they do so, they automatically seal themselves as both arrogant and uninformed in the eyes of many Irish speakers. Unfortunately Ó Siadhail isn't always specific enough in pointing out that he only teaches one of many dialects.

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RobinF (192.18.101.5 - 192.18.101.5)
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

It gets me into a lot of trouble -- the lessons that I started with are Ulster dialect, but I'm going through Learning Irish for the "meat" of the grammar and such. I'm perfectly ok with having two pronunciations for things, but it does confuse the heck out of me trying to figure out how a new word is pronounced.

Mostly, I'm sticking with the "rules" from my first lessons and just realizing that the Cois Fhairrge dialect is different. Often, the phonetic pronunciations in LI are very different than those from the dictionaries as well.

I'm sure I mangle pronunciations more often than not, but it will all work out in the end, I hope!

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Jim,NuaEabhrac (130.156.27.75 - 130.156.27.75)
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

That clears it up for me, go raibh maith agaibh!

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Celtoid (205.188.116.136 - 205.188.116.136)
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I've also noticed that, although the Irish in "Teach Yourself Irish" isn't pronounced that way, you can hear some of the speakers on the tapes doing it! I think Ó Siadhail's pretty clear about the fact that he's teaching a certain dialect. He just isn't always (though usually) clear about the difference between the dialect and the standard.

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