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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (April-June) » "Bergdalen" på iriska/"Bergdalen" as gaeilge « Previous Next »

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (212.209.194.26 - 212.209.194.26)
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is there anyone here who understands both Irish and Swedish who can translate the Swedish placename "Bergdalen" into Irish.

The "berg" refers to small rocky outcrops on the edges of an equally small valley (more of a gently sloping field really).

Go raibh maith agat.

/cormac

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 11:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't speak swedish

But I'd suggest, based on your description;

Cnocáin gleanntáin

Cnocán: a small hill (Cnocáin nom. pl.)
Gleanntán : a small valley (gleanntáin gen. sing).

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Like Aonghus, I feel 'Gleanntán' ought to be used, but I'm moving a little bit away with this:

Com na Creige.

Sin, nó / or sticking to it's (Bergdalen) possible roots:

Toll na Brí.

The latter admittedly quite removed from what is needed.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Creag (pl Creige) is better than Cnocán, since it has the attribute "Stony"

Com na Creige has a nicer feel about it for a place name.

Conas ar thainig tú ar Brí mar cuid de, a Sheosamh? (Brí = fuinneamh?)

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

That should be (gen Creige)!

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 01:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Brí mar cuid de?

Brí an aird atá i gceist a Aonghuis.

Chuimhníos ar 'iceberg' agus bhreathnaíos ar leabhar Calvert Watkins. Tugann sé dhá fhréamh 'bhergh-', uimh. 1 & 2. Baineann an chéad cheann leis an bhfocal 'to bury' mar shampla, agus baineann an dara ceann le 'iceberg'. Mheabhraíos ar an ainm 'Brighid' agus ar 'Kanes' Brae' sa bhaile i Sligeach áit a mbímis ag sciorradh le fána ar chláracha den iarainn rocach ar an sneachta fádó.
'to hide, protect' atá ag Watkins ar uimh. 1.
'high' atá aige faoi uimh. 2.

Le -dalen, mheabhraíos 'Gleann Dalláin' > Gleann Cairthe > Glencar (ainm pearsanta é 'Dallán', sin nó 'gallán') sa bhaile, ar an mBéarla 'dale' agus chuaigh chuig Watkins. Bhíos ag cuimhneamh ar 'toll' agus 'tulach' chomh maith ach ag Watkins faoin bhfréamh 'dhel-' = a hollow, mar a bhfuil 'dell' agus 'dale', tá Old H. German 'tal' agus 'neanderthal' (= log abhann an Neander) aige. Chuas le 'Toll' ansin.

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Tomás (198.22.236.230 - 198.22.236.230)
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chormaic, -- Cuir do cheist ar an bhfóram Ghaeilge. Tá Gaeilge agus Sualainnis go fluirseach ag Jonas.

Put your question on the Gaeilge forum. Jonas, who is from Finland, has both excellent Irish and Swedish.

-- Tomás

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Jonas (128.214.107.119 - 128.214.107.119)
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 03:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, a Thomáis!

Well, yes. Swedish is my mother tongue and (of course) the language I use both with my family, my friends and at work. I hope I qualify ;-)

There have been many good translations here but unfortunately all wrong; this is because the information in the first message is wrong.
First, "berg" does not mean anything near "small rocky outcrops on the edges of an equally small valley". Where did you find that description of "berg"?? Sounds like you're thinking of "klippa". "Berg" is simly the Swedish word for "mountain". Naturally, that means that you cannot use "small" when you talk of "berg". (A small "berg" is called "kulle" = English "hill".)

Then on to "dalen". "Dal" means "valley". Of course, "dalen" mean "the valley".

In other words, the natural translation would be:

Gleann na Sléibhte

I hope this help? Could I ask why you need an Irish translation of a Swedish place name? ;-)

Slán go fóill,
Jonas

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 06:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

An fear ceart san áit cheart ag an am ceart a Jhonais. Is maith ann thú!

Seosamh

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (212.209.194.26 - 212.209.194.26)
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agaibh!

Jonas, I want to put a bilingual sign outside my summer cottage in Sweden (Östergötland). The property is known locally as “Bergdalen”, despite the fact that there are no mountains for hundreds of miles (although I believe berg can also mean rock(s)) and the valley is very small (more of a gently sloping field really) with some rocky, forested outcrops on the edges. The house is located at the edge of this field.

Creig = rocky eminence seems to suit the "berg" bit of the name.

Gleann an Creig
Gleann na Creaga
Gleanntáin na Creaga

Any further suggestions?
Jonas, har du några förslag till? :)

Slán go fóill,

Cormac

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

(An) Com Creagach

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (195.67.112.150 - 195.67.112.150)
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus

I like the sound of that :)

But doesn't that make it sound like the valley is rocky, which it isn't. Also my dictionary (Ó Dónnaill) says Com means mountain recess, coomb or cirque (which are small valleys or hollows normally found in mountains). The trouble is Bergdalen isn't in the mountains, its in a regular countryside farming area. Also I should mention that the Swedish has a poetic, cosy feel to it...

Sorry to nitpick :)I do appreciate the help.

Cormac

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chormaic, maidir le 'com' a bheith sa sliabh ag an Dálach, it basically means 'hollow'. You may note that the Coombe in Dublin's Liberties is quite removed from the mts. while your own waist doesn't have to be near the mountains either and yet it is similarly termed 'com'. Imagine a person lying on their side on the beach. The hollow at the waist, or where the waist ought to be, is the matter described.

Ádh mór.

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (195.67.112.150 - 195.67.112.150)
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat a Sheosaimh!

I take the point about 'com', but does 'Com Creagach' mean that the small valley (hollow) is itself rocky or is it bordered by rocky outcrops at its edges?

cormac

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (195.67.112.150 - 195.67.112.150)
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

BTW Seosamh, am I right in assuming you are from Leitrim...It's very beautiful there...

cormac

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Jonas (213.243.174.107 - 213.243.174.107)
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chormaic, jag har alltid gott om förslag ;-)

"Creig" does not really fit with "berg". As I said, the Swedish word for "creig" is "klippa". Other suitable words for "rock"/"Creig" are "bumling", "flyttblock" or in some cases "sten". All depending on the actual "creig" in question of course, the words above are not always intechangeable. But "berg", no. When someone talks about a "berg" you are expecting at least 400-500 meters, often more. If it's much higher and placed in the Nordic countries it's a "fjäll", if it's lower it's a "kulle". Everything larger than a "kulle" and outside the Nordic countries are known as "berg".

Of course, if you want to use "creig" because it fits the surroundings I see absolutely no problem with that, but it will not be a translation. No matter how hard I try, I cannot give you another alternative than "sliabh" for "berg".

"Dal" is a different story altogether - I do think "gleann" is the most appropriate in most cases but here we have a choice in Irish. The reason is that Irish has more words to describe a valley than Swedish has so we can pick from different options in Irish. With "berg" that is not the case since Swedish has at least as many different words as Irish, all with a somewhat different meaning.

By the way, have you read the books by Jan Guillou about "Arn Magnusson". They take place in Götaland in the 12th century and are really readable. How come you bought a summer cottage in Sweden, any connection? Which is the closest town to your place, chances are I've been there.

Slán go fóill / Ha det så bra
Jonas

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (195.67.112.150 - 195.67.112.150)
Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 05:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is as Ard Mhacha mé, ach tá mé i mo chónaí sa tSualainn le deich bliana.

Now back to complicated question about the name...you're probably right that perhaps a literal translation would not work, what is required is more of an adaptation (even if i still believe "berg" can mean rock, type in "berg" here for example: http://www-lexikon.nada.kth.se/skolverket/swe-eng.shtml )
Anyhow, I'll try to describe the place a bit better, in Swedish:

Torpet ligger på vägen mellan Bankekind och Björsätter, 20 minuter från Linköping. Det ligger i en försänkning/dal i ett berggrundat område. I försänkningen ligger nuförtiden åkermark/bruksjord. I sluttningen ligger vårt torp. Alltså det är inga storartade berg vi talar om men grunden är av berg. Men det finns några rätt kraftiga kipppartier som sticker rakt upp ur marken i skogen längs kantan av själva dalen. Dessa är allt från ett par meter upp till 45-50 meter. Gud va' kompliceratat detta har blivit. Är det bättre om jag skickar bilder kanske ;)

Slán go fóill

Cormac

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Jonas (213.243.176.148 - 213.243.176.148)
Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Aha, du bor i Sverige! Det förklarar hur det kommer sig att du har ett torp där. Jag har aldrig varit i Banekind eller Björsätter men i Linköping har jag varit ganska många gånger fast det nog är nästan tio år sedan jag var där senast.

Your Swedish is really perfect but in order for the other contributors to this discussion I'll write in English. As you know, there are some combined words in Swedish in which "berg" is used to denote "rock" as in "bedrock" but just the word "berg" in itself is not. The examples at http://www-lexikon.nada.kth.se/skolverket/swe-eng.shtml are quite good but I still wouldn't use "creig" for anyone of them. It is of course true that we talk of "berggrund" and "hälleberg" for the bedrock. I must admit straight away that I don't know the Irish for "bedrock" but I wouldn't think it's "creig". On the other hand, it's perfectly true that there are lots and lots of place names around containing "berg" although the elevation in question is neither a "berg" nor a "kulle", often just a "backe". Back home in my own town we have "Skutberget", hardly ten meters high. The island "Bergö" never exceeds fifty meters and so on.

Still, having read your description of the place I wouldn't recommend my first suggestion, "Gleann na Sléibhte". I'm still sure it's the best literal translation, but it would hardly suit the place. An Irish speaker hearing the name would wonder where the "sléibhte" are. ;-) Place names are quite hard to translate in many cases. We don't call Stockholm "Log Island", Belgrade "White City" or Inis Meáin "Middle Island". Probably a real Irish place name suited to the enviroment would be the option?

Ha det så bra / Slán go fóill,
Jonas

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (195.67.112.150 - 195.67.112.150)
Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Maybe I should just call it Baile Uí Dhonnaile :)

For those of you who didn’t get the Swedish description, here’s one in English:

A gently sloping, small valley. The valley is cultivated land except for elevated forested parts (that look like wee islands in the cultivated land). These forested parts also contain large rock formations and outcrops (5-45 meters high) and are located mainly at the edges of the valley, but also in it. Literally Bergdalen would be “The valley of the rock(s)”.

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