I'm looking of the traduction on the sentence "the girl who I kissed".

I think it's maybe "an cailín a phóg mé", but it may also mean " the girl who kissed me".
On a dictionnary, I saw : "to kiss = póg a thabairt", but I don't know how to make a sentence with this information.

"An cailín ar phóg mé" I think. The "ar" makes the difference. Anyone confirm?

An cailín a phog mé is ambiguous. You can use an cailín ar thug mé póg di/dithe or an cailín ar phóg mé í.

If the meaning isn't clear, you can also say:

An cailin a dtug mé pog daoithe (I kissed)
An cailin a thug pog domh (who kissed me)

"An cailin ar phog mé" sounds wrong to me.

And to say "the girl that kissed me", would you say


an cailín ar thugadh póg dom aici (not sure of the words order)

an cailín ar phog sí mé

Is the "subject+indirect relative particle + verb + subj + direct complement" patern the general way to state the difference between the subject and direct object complement in no lenition rule can state it ?

Edit :I hadn't seen whad lugaidh had added

(Message edited by hugo75 on April 10, 2011)

(Message edited by hugo75 on April 10, 2011)

quote:

an cailín ar thugadh póg dom aici (not sure of the words order)

this one may be grammatically right, but I doubt any Irish speaker would say that, it's very complicated and doesn't sound natural, in my opinion :-)

An cailin a dtug mé pog daoithe (I kissed)
An cailin a thug pog domh (who kissed me)

I don't understand why there is an eclipsis on the first "tug".

Depending on the dialect, tabhair in the past tense can be treated grammatically as a present tense verb in, e.g., the dependent form (similar to, e.g., an ndeachaigh, an raibh, an dtáinig, ⁊rl.). Since the first example that Lughaidh gave involves an indirect relative clause, which would result in eclipsis to a present tense verb, and tabhair is being treated as such, it is lenited... (In the standard, it would be an cailín ar thug mé póg di)

If you could'nt use an indirect object, what would you say?

an fear ar mharaigh mé é the man that I killed
an fear ar mharaigh sé mé the man that killed me
(according to what sean said)

(don't care about the meaning of the sentences)

(Message edited by hugo75 on April 10, 2011)

(Message edited by hugo75 on April 10, 2011)

an fear a mharaigh mé
an fear ar mharaigh mé é

Btw you wouldn't need to say "the man that killed me", because if he killed you, you can't write nor say anything more lol

Well, Lughaidh, you might need to if you were playing a video game or something :-P

There are two options for the personal pronouns with verbs. In this case you have a choice between "phóg mé" and "phógas".

So, without ambivalence, and with only a small change in the English, "the girl whom I kissed" becomes "an cailín a phógas."

Since such a sentence brings other words to mind I give them here: "an cailín a phógas go dil dúthrachtach."

An cailin a phogas may mean "the girl who kisses" as well (in different dialects) so it creates a new problem :-D

In olden days when Gaelic League organisers or Timirí were trying to urge people to learn and use Irish again the English speakers who did not want to be bothered re-learning the now despised language took great delight in posing such conundrums as "What's the Irish for an arm?" "And a hand?" "A foot?" "A leg?" "Come out from under the table" etc in order to fend off their tormentor's enthusiasm. "There you are" they would say, "Gaelic doesn't have as many words as English."

Yet as second-language learners we have to address the difference between our mother-tongue and Irish every time we use Irish.

And "using it" is the key. Ní stiúgaí de theanga i gcónra í an Ghaeilge. Is éasca agus is taitneamhach í a úsáid.

Tuighe a bhfuil tu a mhiniu seo ins an thread seo?

Since written messages containing humour are notorious for causing unintended offence let me say Lughaidh that you are right. I had not thought of the old relative form of the verb.

Your own solutions offered above are also correct: An cailin a dtug mé póg daoithe (I kissed)
An cailin a thug póg domh (who kissed me)

I think the CO might recommend the following:
An cailin ar thug mé póg di (whom I kissed)
An cailin a thug póg dom (who kissed me)

Your use of "daoithe" highlights one of the defects of the CO. While "di" is OK for the 3rd person feminine of "de" it is not for "do" where "daoi" or "daoithe" would be better. I'd prefer if all the prepositional pronouns derived from "de" had a slender "d" and all of those from "do" a broad. so "daoi" and "daoibh" should replace "di" and "díbh" where "do" is involved.

An cailin a phogas may mean "the girl who kisses" as well (in different dialects) so it creates a new problem :-D

I think "pog" wouldn't be lenited

Wouldnt the difference be:

an cailín a phógas = the girl that kisses (ulster)
*a phógann (Standard, Munster)
*a phóganns (Connacht)


an cailín gur phógas = the girl that I kissed (munster)
*gur phóg mé (Cannacht, Ulster)

A phoganns is possible in Ulster too.

quote:

I think "pog" wouldn't be lenited

Relative forms in -as may be lenited or unlenited in Ulster (according to An Teanga Bheo) : an cailin a pogas = an cailin a phogas.

"an fear a mharaigh mé
an fear ar mharaigh mé é

Btw you wouldn't need to say "the man that killed me", because if he killed you, you can't write nor say anything more lol"

So, when the antecedant is subject, is there always a doubt?


(Message edited by hugo75 on April 12, 2011)

There's a doubt when the subject is "mé", muid, sibh... all these pronouns and words that have the same form in the nominative and in the "object form" (accusative).
But some pronouns do change : tu/thu, sé/é, si/i, siad/iad.