I came across Muna mhiste leat on Gaeltalk. In TYI (dillon) they say that Mara gives urú. And in Ó Dónaill it says mura gives urú as well and has "Mura miste dom a rá." gan séimhiú.

So is Muna mhiste a typo?

Thanks in advance.

quote:

So is Muna mhiste a typo?

No, this would be "murar mhiste leat" in the CO with conditional form of the copula.

The r in munar/marar/murar (all three being found in Munster) is frequently lost in the past indicative and conditional mood. Indeed, Ó Sé (636) only gives "mara" + lenition - with no r, for past and condtional.

quote:

And in Ó Dónaill it says mura gives urú as well and has "Mura miste dom a rá." gan séimhiú.

Be careful. You seem to be confusing mura before a verb and mura before copular forms. Mura only eclipes (urú) the consonant of verbs - not the copula. Mura in the present tense (the example you quote from Ó Dónaill) quite correctly has no lenition - it's the present. In the past or conditional it would be "murar mhiste dom a rá" but in speech the r is very commonly lost - the lenition however stays to show what tense/mood is being indicated! Before a vowel in copular forms it becomes "murarbh" - murarbh éan é but murab in the present: murab éan é. Ó Dónaill and the Christian Brothers (chapter 16) will give you a fuller description of the copular forms.

Thanks Carmanach.

It looks like I need to get this Christian Brothers book.

I have compiled a list of typos from lessons 6-10 in Gaeltalk and plan on emailing it to them as hopfuly to help them out, but as I am just a learner, I was wondering if anyone better at the language than myself would mind if I emailed it to them to see if I am mistaken on my corrections. Or should I just post the email here?

Cróga, I think the book may be out of print but you can access an online copy here: http://ec.europa.eu/translation/irish/documents/christian_brothers_comprehensive _irish_grammar_ga.pdf

quote:

Or should I just post the email here?

Yes, I think that would be better than giving out personal contact details here.

(This is the email of correction for Gaeltalk. If I have corrected anything that should not have been, please let me know.)


These are some typos and irregularities that I found from lessons 6 through 10

6-

Grammar

: an scoil (school) fhuar
an bháisteach mhór


I was wondering if that shouldn’t be an scoil mhór and an bháisteach fhuar ?

7-

dialogue

tabhairt cuairt written but tabhairt chuairt pronounced.

cad ar mhaith leat written but cad ba mhaith leat pronounced.

You use Labhrann (Munster )for the present, but labhróidh (Standard) for the future

Vocabulary:

Taábhairne

Muúna - extra ú

Revision - Understand and translate:

(3) cad gur mhaith leat , but cad ar mhaith leat in dialogue.

.

9

Dialogue

Dúiche spelled, but Dúthaigh pronounced.

Sí de spelled, but Sí dhe pronounced.

Vocabulary

Go n-éieíeirí couple extra vowels here


10

Dialogue

Déanfaidh mé sin in the dialogue but, déanfaidh mé é sin in Vocabulary.


Vocabulary
(these 3 have extra letters)

bhronntananaisí

Ba mhaith leíléi

Iildaite

An mó for "how much" but have an mór in dialogue

Revision

Vocabulary second set, question 2:

2. "Ask the cost of a jumper" - you give the answer as "an mó an ionar seo" with the r missing on an mór

I hope that this helps. If I am mistaken on any of my correction, I apologize.

Cróga, you'll find the Christian Brothers' Grammar a crashing waste of money - it is all about Standardised Irish and is nothing to do with Cork Irish. In fact, even if you are interested in Standard Irish, you'll find that Lars Braesicke's site better and more informative than the Christian Brothers' Grammar. See http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm

dúthaigh is fine for dúiche - that is the Cork form
sí dhe is fine for sí de - the d should be lenited at least in pronunciation after a vowel
cad ba mhaith leat - this is right
labhrann labharfadh
déanfaidh mé é sin - is right
an mó - how much? an mór - is it big?

an mó an ionar seo? - I think Carmanach would be best on this one. I only know "an mó atá air an ionar seo?" I am not sure about "an mó" without "atá air", but there is no "r" missing from "mó".

An mór í an ionar seo - is this jumper big?

I was basing my mó vs mór on tyi Lesson XXIV

An mó (how many)
An mór (how much)

An mór a thugais dó?

how much did you give him?

An mó peann atá sa bhosca san?

How many pens are in that box?

I hope Carmanach will answer this query, a Chróga. The only time I tried asking for something in a shop in the Gaeltacht with "an mó", the shop assistant asked me whether I was speaking German - the situation is such with Polish staff in all the shops you will never need to ask "how much is X" in Irish... ar an ndrochuair...

David, you said the Cristian brothers book was no good, and gave a link for a standard book. Have they made any grammar books for Munster. I feel like I have asked this before, but the answer has eluded me once again.

quote:

: an scoil (school) fhuar
an bháisteach mhór


I was wondering if that shouldn’t be an scoil mhór and an bháisteach fhuar ?

I don't see where the problem is. You can say that a school is cold and an bháisteach mhór for a particularly heavy fall of rain.

quote:

tabhairt cuairt written but tabhairt chuairt pronounced.

ag + verbal noun + lenition is common in Corca Dhuibhne at least. In West Muskerry Irish, I don't know what the norm is (or was) but it's possible that both lenition and lack of lenition occur in speech depending on the speaker. That may explain the anomaly you point out.

quote:

cad ar mhaith leat written but cad ba mhaith leat pronounced.

"Cad ar mhaith leat" would appear to be a genuine typo.

quote:

You use Labhrann (Munster )for the present, but labhróidh (Standard) for the future

Labhrann is indeed the primary form in Corca Dhubhne as well as labharfaidh in the future but just be careful here that West Muskerry doesn't have both forms.

quote:

cad gur mhaith leat , but cad ar mhaith leat in dialogue.

"Cad gur mhaith leat" appears to be a typo. "Cad ar mhaith leat" is unusual. Certainly in Corca Dhuibhne at least, the b in ba is frequently not pronounced so that one hears "Cad 'a mhaith leat?". Are you sure you can hear an r in the dialogue?

quote:

Dúiche spelled, but Dúthaigh pronounced

Dúthaigh is the normal Cork and Kerry form. Dúiche occurs in the Déise, however.

quote:

Sí de spelled, but Sí dhe pronounced.

In Corca Dhuibhne and many other places in Munster as well, I imagine, forms of the prepositions de and do are very commonily lenited following a noun or pronoun ending in a vowel. Not showing the lenition when it occurs is not a mortal sin, though.

quote:

Déanfaidh mé sin in the dialogue but, déanfaidh mé é sin in Vocabulary.

Both forms occur in speech. Not a mortal sin either!

quote:

An mó for "how much" but have an mór in dialogue

The mó in An mó? such as "An mó míle slí as so go Trá Lí?" has nothing to do with the adjective mór but is in fact "An iomdha?" historically and realised as "An iomaí?" in the west and north and "An mó-mú?" in Munster. "An mó?" is the most common way of saying How many? in Corca Dhuibhne but note well that it actually means "Is it many's the X?": An mó duine athá ag dul 'on Bhuailtín anocht?" is literally "Is it many's the person who is going to Ballyferriter tonight?" which is the normal way of saying "How many?" Note also that "An mó?" is always followed by the nominative singular.

An fada as so go Trá Lí? - How far is it to Tralee?

"An mór?" in such phrases as "An mór an Ghaelainn a labhraid siad le chéile?" is just the present interrogative of the copula followed by the adjective mór. Note that one could not use "An mó?" (an iomdha) here as it is only used for things, persons etc that are countable.

There is a form "An mó" that does come from mór: "An mó Éirinn ná Albain?" where we have the comparative degree of mór. "Is Ireland bigger than Scotland?"

quote:

"Ask the cost of a jumper" - you give the answer as "an mó an ionar seo" with the r missing on an mór

This appears to be a definite mistake. As for "ionar", I've never heard it used in speech or seen it written by any modern Gaeltacht writers. If it's masculine it should be "an t-ionar". Anyway, "geansaí" is the normal word for a jumper or jersey. Ask the cost of a jumper - iarr costas geansaí orthu, iarr orthu cad é an praghas athá ar gheansaí? is what you would expect to hear.

quote:

Cróga, you'll find the Christian Brothers' Grammar a crashing waste of money - it is all about Standardised Irish and is nothing to do with Cork Irish.

I didn't say that the Christian Brothers' Grammar is a text devoted to Cork Irish nor do they themselves claim it to be so. The original poster didn't state at the top of this thread that he was interested specifically in the Irish of County Cork. True, the spelling and grammar of GGBC are standardised but the pardigms are all taken from writers such as Peadar Ó Laoghaire, Séamus Ó Grianna and Máirtín Ó Cadhain as stated in the introduction. One would not go to such as text to look for specific examples of West Muskerry Irish; it is designed as a overview of the written language as a whole. As for it being "a crashing waste of money", you're entitled to your opinion but it's not one I share. I believe that it is a very fine text indeed and would recommend it to anyone. I would also recommend strongly that students would study one of the dialect monographs IN ADDITION TO an Graiméar. That has been my own approach for many years.

Thank you Carmanach. That helps a lot.

They actualy say "cad ba mhaith leat"

In thier dialogue for "an mór" (which I should have given in the first place) they give :

Sarah: Gabh mo leithscéal. An mór an t-ionar seo?

Máiréad: Tá €50.00 ar an gceann sin agus €65.00 ar an gceann ildhaite

But in the vocab they give

an mó = how much.

This is why I was confused, I wasnt sure which was correct, the an mó or the an mór

Carmanach, i was under the impression that verbal noun+lenition depended how tightly the vn and the noun formed a tight unit. Especially where the vn is a general noun whose meaning is not clear until the noun is added. But there is variation: as far as I know it is "ag imirt chártaí", but you can find "ag imirt cártaí" in PUL in one passage.

I wasn't sure how to respond to tabhairt cuairt. First because the Cork form should be cuaird. Second, I wondered what cuairt was - genitive plural? I was expecting "ag tabhairt cuairde". Without the full sentence, it is difficult to say more.

I had never heard of ionar either...

Cróga, I'm sorry I messed up on "an mór" -- I had a feeling Carmanach would have a good handle on that. His explanation of "an mó" from "an iomdha" is right - "iomdha" means "many a". So: an mór atá ar an ngeasaí? I have frequently swapped "an mó" and "an mór" back and forth in my mind and i expect I will confuse them again in the future...

€50 - Cróga, I wonder how they pronouced this? I believe the EU has decreed that the euro has no plural in any language. In England we don't use the euro, so we are less clued up on these things (we would say "fifty euros"), but in Ireland, they seem to say "fifty euro".

€50 - deich n-iúró is dathad?

I made up iúródhanna as the plural of this word for myself, but it is strictly a self-invented word!

@ David, this is the paragraph for tabhairt cuairt.


Tá Sarah ag tabhairt cuairt ar Thigh Tábhairne chun bualadh le muintir na h-áite agus chun aithne a chur orthu. Tá sí chun deoch a bheith aici agus éisteacht leis an gceol. Labharfaidh sí leis na daoine chun cleachtadh a fháil ar an nGaeilge a labhairt le muintir na Gaeltachta. Is é Liam fear an Tábhairne agus tá Máire ag cabhrú leis.


(I dont know how to put quotes in those cool boxes like so many of you do.)

@ Carmanach , whats a dialect monograph?

quote:

An mó (how many)
An mór (how much)

An mór a thugais dó?

how much did you give him?

An mó peann atá sa bhosca san?

How many pens are in that box?

An mó (from "an iomdha" = is it many's the) + nominative singular, used with objects, people that can be counted into units: An mó duine/bó/focal/tigh/amadán/oileán athá ann? = How many?

An mór a thugais dó? = literally "Is it a great deal that which you gave him?" i.e. "How much did you give him?". You could also use "beag" with the copula: "Is beag a thugais dó/Ní mór a thugais dó" = You didn't give him much, you gave him little

For abstract things and things that cannot be counted out into distinct units, such as varieties of material as well as countable things you Cé méid + noun?

Cé méid duine a chonaiceabhair? = How many people did ye see?

Cé méid féir a chuireabhair? = How much grass did ye sow?

Cé méid leabhar athá aige? = How many books does he have?

Cé méid leitean a dh'ithis? = How much porridge did you eat?

An mór an gabháltas talún athá thoir acu? = How big is the holding they have over beyond?, literally "Is it big . . ."

Note carefully that the nominative singular follows Cé méid? when we are talking about countable things: Cé méid duine?. With abstract notions and materials such as gainimh, cruithneacht, plúr etc. that are not easily countable, the genitive follows Cé méid?: Cé méid gainimhe (gainí) athá agat? = How much sand do you have?

Well, I think it should be "ag tabhairt cuairDE".

"tá sí chun deoch a bheith aici" strikes me as a literal translation from English. I don't have the experience in Irish to say that it is - and this is where Carmanach is vital to the list. It's probably just fine, but it is just something I would like to get confirmation on.


Ar an nGaeilge - well as discussed before, you said you are learning Cork Irish, and Gaeltalk is based in the Cork Gaeltalk, and I don't know why they didn't say "ar an nGaelainn".

quotes in boxes are thus:

\ quote {}

remove spaces and put your text in the parentheses.

Cróga, you sent me the sound file of what they said on Gaeltalk.

€50 - they said caoga euro, but I was unaware of caoga pronounced /kaig@/, but it is listed in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne as a variant.

quote:

remove spaces and put your text in the parentheses.

thank you David.

quote:

Sarah: Gabh mo leithscéal. An mór an t-ionar seo?

I've never heard of such a construction for "How much is it?". To me, it means "Is this jumper big?".

quote:

Máiréad: Tá €50.00 ar an gceann sin agus €65.00 ar an gceann ildhaite

Shouldn't that be "ildaite"?

quote:

Carmanach, i was under the impression that verbal noun+lenition depended how tightly the vn and the noun formed a tight unit. Especially where the vn is a general noun whose meaning is not clear until the noun is added.

Perhaps so but I haven't heard or seen it explained that way. You may be right as Ó Sé says that lenition is used in many "common phrases" which would suggest fossilised expressions. A colleague of mine says otherwise if I remember correctly and Pádraig Ua Maoileoin also said that ag + verbal noun + lenition is the norm, if I'm not mistaken.

quote:

Tá Sarah ag tabhairt cuairt ar Thigh Tábhairne chun bualadh le muintir na h-áite agus chun aithne a chur orthu. Tá sí chun deoch a bheith aici agus éisteacht leis an gceol. Labharfaidh sí leis na daoine chun cleachtadh a fháil ar an nGaeilge a labhairt le muintir na Gaeltachta. Is é Liam fear an Tábhairne agus tá Máire ag cabhrú leis.

"Ag tabhairt c(h)uairte" but "ag tabhairt cuairt ar thigh tábhairne" is what I would expect. "ar an nGaelainn" is strict Munster of course. "Gaeilge" is unknown in Munster apart from the very north of Clare, if I'm not mistaken.

Dialect monographs = the texts published by the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, etc each of which deal with the phonology (DIAS) or the phonology, morphology and syntax of a particular Irish dialect (ITÉ, etc). Essential reading for any student of the spoken language.

quote:

…I don't know why they didn't say "ar an nGaelainn"

Actually, they do say "ar an nGaolainn" in the recording. For some reason, they stick with "standard" spelling, despite the actual pronunciation of the words in the sound files.

quote:

"tá sí chun deoch a bheith aici" strikes me as a literal translation from English. I don't have the experience in Irish to say that it is - and this is where Carmanach is vital to the list. It's probably just fine, but it is just something I would like to get confirmation on.

I can't say for certain whether such usage is an anglicism or not but it would appear to be so. I always feel like asking people who say "Bhí cúpla deoch againn", "Agus an n-ólabhair iad?". Of course, you will hear and can always say "tá sí chuin deoch a chaitheamh/dh'ól". Something else that appears to be a calque of English is "cógaisí/piollaí/drugaí a thógaint". "Cógaisí a chaitheamh" would appear to be more native but rarely used nowadays due to the influence of English. Many learners assume that the verbal noun in "ag caitheamh tobac" for example is literally one and the same as "smoking". It isn't! It's "consuming", "using up".

Carmanach, you said it is "ag tabhairt cuairde", but "ag tabhairt cuairt ar thigh tábhairne". I'm sure you're right - I am just trying to understand.

is that connected with a rule mentioned on Lars Braesicke's site, as follows:

quote:

lenition is not used with nouns as the object of the verbal noun:
if an indefinite noun follows the verbal noun and is given a further attribute. e.g.: Tá sé ag léamh leabhar maith = He is reading a good book

Is "ar thigh tábhairne" a "further attribute" in Lars' parlance? Does that explain it? So the attribute can be a an adjective or something else.

Also, I am wondering if PUL's "ag déanamh oibre sagairt" is a violation of this rule? maybe the rule did not obtain in older forms of Irish?

But conversely, I am wondering if the rule explains "ag tabhairt aghaidh soir ar Chorcaigh". There is no genitive on aghaidh, but maybe "soir..." is the "further attribute"? I had previously just assumed that "aghaidh soir" was to be understood itself as an adverbial phrase, but now I am not sure.

Ag caitheamh tobac, and ag ól tobac

quote:

Is "ar thigh tábhairne" a "further attribute" in Lars' parlance? Does that explain it? So the attribute can be a an adjective or something else.

Yes. That is a common and widespread rule. Not just in Munster. The Christian Brothers also mention this:

9.30 Ní úsáidtear ach oiread an ginideach d'ainmfhocal éiginnte cáilithe atá faoi réir ag ainm briathartha a bhfuil an réamhfhocal a, ag roimhe: ag déanamh obair mhaith (an obair, aon mhaith): ag tabhairt drochmheas (pingin ar bith); a mholadh ceol cláirsí (amhráin Ghaeilge). Ach ag treabhadh na páirce bige,ag léamh ár leabhair Ghaeilge.

The qualification they mention can be an adjective or adjectival phrase or the equivalent of such.

In "ag tabhairt cuairt ar thigh tábhairne", you could take out "ar thigh tábhairne" and replace it with "geairid" without upsetting the syntax: ag tabhairt cuairt gheairid.

quote:

Also, I am wondering if PUL's "ag déanamh oibre sagairt" is a violation of this rule? maybe the rule did not obtain in older forms of Irish?

Yes, PUL seems to be following an older rule. Certainly following a compound preposition, the norm used to be to put each element in the genitive but such usage is rare nowadays.

quote:

But conversely, I am wondering if the rule explains "ag tabhairt aghaidh soir ar Chorcaigh". There is no genitive on aghaidh, but maybe "soir..." is the "further attribute"? I had previously just assumed that "aghaidh soir" was to be understood itself as an adverbial phrase, but now I am not sure.

Ag tabhairt aghaidhe BUT ag tabhairt aghaidh soir ar Chorcaigh. The rule would extend to adverbial phrases also, they being the "further attribute".

quote:

Ag caitheamh tobac, and ag ól tobac

Ag ól feaigs, mhuis!

I say 50 Euro too in Irish and English. But not all Irish people say that when speaking in English they add the s to the end. Although I think the majority of English speakers in Ireland say it correctly (unlike the British). In Irish it comes naturally to say it correctly- As we don't add s to make the plural unlike English/French.
The idea is that every country that uses the Euro will spell and say it the same. With different languages creating the plural of nouns in different ways it's better not to have a plural form.