I was wondering what level of Irish you came out with? I've been on and off it for about a year and at the moment I'm back into it & I'm flying threw it at the moment, so providing I stick with it, what level of Irish can I expect at the end?

Go raibh maith agaibh

(ps i tried to post this message on my phone last night but couldnt remember my password so did it as a guest, so if its in a que to moderate it you can delete it now)

well, at the end of that book, you would know the nuts and bolts of the grammar, but not much vocabulary. You would be in a position to read real things with the aid of a dictionary. But there are always grammatical points that are not covered in a basic textbook, so there would be things to ask on Daltaí too.

After Learning Irish, you could do worse that to go through Caint Ros Muc.

E 2.12: Caint Ros Muc

ed. Arndt Wigger, photographs by Seán de Brún

2004. 2 voll.

€65

A transcription of speech-recordings made in Ros Muc in 1964 (vol. 1) with a complete vocabulary (vol. 2).

A collection of audio recordings from this book is available online.
E 2.12.1: Imleabhar I: Téacs

2004. 2 pll. + map + xxx + 406 pp.

€35

ISBN 185500 193 4
E 2.12.2: Imleabhar II: Foclóir

2004. v + 566 pp.

€35

ISBN 185500 194 2

Hours of audio recordings of the above are available at http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/online/caint_ros_muc/

Go raibh maith agat, I will keep that in mind.

Duine ar bith eile?

David thanks so much for that link to the recordings.

Macfear, I don't know if this is any help or not but since not many replies thought I'd share this. I was told by a guy at a random Irish class I took, before I threw myself into Irish properly that is, that a guy he knew that did it successfully said it takes 3 years of pretty intensive learning and effort to gain full fluency in Irish- by this level of fluency I mean being able to speak naturally, with as near native accent as you can get, and being able to read anything and understand native speakers without much difficulty. I was skeptical thinking that 3 years intensive learning seemed a bit long (I had French in mind but there is no comparison) but I am 2 years in and the more you get on (if you are putting the effort and time in) it is absolutely true about 3 years. You will gain varying levels of fluency along the way though but you just keep on building on it.

So the book was for me a huge part of my study and I couldn't have got on as well without it. But you do need to put in the "few" hours as well..

"A transcription of speech-recordings made in Ros Muc in 1964 "

Transcription in IPA or CO?

And traduction?

Macfear,
I haven't completed this book, but I think I've done equivalent with other books. I think Learning Irish will give you a very good foundation to then go on from. Without speaking with people, you probably could develop a good sense of reading and writing. Listening can be developed through radio, and, well, speaking will be the biggest challenge. But of all the all-in-one books out there, Learning Irish is hard to beat. In many ways the level of Irish depends on you. You will also find that once you're done, you're not really done. I am constantly going back and reviewing basic stuff to reaffirm what I know, or find something that I missed.

Many thanks for the information, it's much appreciated.

Sinéad - Thats interesting, how many hours would you do a day? I spend about an hour a day 6 days a week of formal learning of mícheál ó siadhail. Then I'll spend about 20 mins before bed just looking over stuff/ listening to the recordings, and I keep the book out at work and have a couple of sneak peaks during the day to solidify it. In addition to that I try to watch as much TG4 as I can when I'm in (im not giving up fair city though!), and have just started listening to RnaG now I've enough Irish to understand the jist, i'd listen to it in the background at work probably 3-4 hours a day, just trying to immerse myself in the language. Would that be roughly what you/ your man does? I know everyones different and I'm under no illusions about the time it takes, ive been on and (mainly) off for 3 years already, but only since New Years have I decided enoughs enough and I have to learn it properly, i've set myself until the end of the year to have a good enough level of Irish to read Gaelscéal & have proper conversations - not native-fluent, just enough to communicate day to day in the way I would in English.

Seán - That pretty much sums up my experience so far, im on lesson 23 and my reading is quite good at this stage, my listening is better to the extent I can get the jist of conversations on tv/ radio but my spoken is still very basic. All in good time though. So basically at the end of this book I'll be like I am now only at a higher level, im happy with that, I think I'll take a class when Ive finished this book to improve my speaking. And I am sure I have missed/ forgotten some parts of the lesson's at this stage so I'm sure I'll be looking back for years to come.

A journey Im very excited about!

Go raibh maith agaibh aríst

An hour and 20 minutes a day 6 days a week is a really good effort MacFear. And even with passive listening to RnaG for 3-4 hrs a day every day you will find big difference by end of the year. But if you can, try to really listen to what they're saying on RnaG and how they're saying it and write anything new down..

Could you add another hour a day and set it aside for reading books, etc. by Conamara writers? I'd keep it consistent for now and ignore the other dialects as much as possible for another while. Gaelscéal will be a walk in the park for you if you aim for higher--- have Ó Cadhain, Ó Gráinne, Ó Máille, Ó Conaire srl as your goal and keep working harder til you can read them.

Good plan, I'll have a go, it'd be difficult for me to squeeze any extra reading to be honest (im also studying for work based exams :-/) but I'm sure I could spend a couple of hours at the weekend reading Cre na Cille srl.

Maith agat aríst

You might want to watch Cré na Cille:

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=6293

Do chuala go bhfuil "subtitles" as Gaelainn i gCré na Cille. An fíor é sin? Má tá a fhios ag éinne.

Tá, Cróga.

go raibh maith agat a Chead_ite. Tá sé go hiontach.

Ní fhaca mé an scannán sin ariamh, grma, feicfidh mé anois ach ní cheannfaidh mé mar tá sé ro-daor sílim, beidh mé ag fanacht go dtí go bhfuil sé ar an teilifís aríst!

Tá roinnt samplaí as ar youtube

http://www.youtube.com/user/rosgireland

'Dhá Scéal: Two Stories'

http://www.cic.ie/item.aspx?id=992

An dá scéal acu le Máirtín Ó Cadhain agus aistriúchán ar na scéalta sa mBéarla ag gabháil leo.

Hello, dia dhaoibh,

I have worked through this course of Micheál Ó Siadhail, too. In my point of view, it is not suitable to chosen a local Gaeltacht dialect with the special feature to delete a syllable in words with central "th". If I would have known more about the Irish language before and this course, I would have preferred a book which is based on Standard Irish. It is fact that regional influenced Standard Irish is the form mostly used in writing and also in speech. Even in the Gaeltacht, the speech is shifting towards the Standard. The original local Gaeltacht dialects are mostly spoken by older speakers or within a few of the strongest Gaeltacht places. A Gaeltacht woman whom I know well has acknowledged this.

Therefore I think that it is nonsense today to teach a local dialect. I was rather confused when I saw the capital where they explain the differences to the Standard. It is enough to give some recordings of such speech in order to understand local dialects.

I would recommand "Teach yourself Irish" and then "Speaking Irish - taking your skills beyond basics".

Sin í mo thuairimse.

Le deá-mhéin, Alex

I would have to disagree with you there Alex.
To me the standard CO is artificial.

Dialects Rule ! :)

Is it better than English? I wish I knew a dialect really well but, being a Jeaicín, all I know is the CO. Should I steer clear of the Gaeltacht? And run if I see a real Irish speaker approaching? I think after 60 or more years the CO is just another dialect. "Artificial" is not an appropriate word. Apart from terminology every word and structure recommended by the CO is "correct" in some part of the Gaeltacht or in the earlier versions of the language. Then there's the much overlooked "teir ná toirmeasc" sentence. This is a "deilín seanchaite" however and best left ina chodladh mar ábhar.

quote:

It is fact that regional influenced Standard Irish is the form mostly used in writing and also in speech.

By non-native speakers...
Of course non-native speakers of Irish are more numerous, but it doesn't mean they speak the reference language. Most English speakers, in the world, aren't native either. But someone who wants to learn English will try to spend time in an English-speaking country. He won't try to talk like a Frenchman or like a Spanishwoman who's learning English... He won't try to keep speaking like a learner...

quote:

Even in the Gaeltacht, the speech is shifting towards the Standard.

I've not noticed that from the people I heard...

quote:

Therefore I think that it is nonsense today to teach a local dialect.

So you think the best solution is to teach only a "dialect" who is only spoken by learners (and that has been created in offices in the 1950s)?

quote:

I would recommand "Teach yourself Irish" and then "Speaking Irish - taking your skills beyond basics".

Most of the people you can hear in "Speaking Irish" are native speakers and speak their dialect. So it's a bit in contradiction with what you wrote above...

By the way, if you speak Standard Irish, what pronunciation do you use? Since there's no standard pronunciation...
And where will you attend to Gaeltacht courses to improve your Standard Irish? There's no Gaeltacht where people speak Standard Irish...

To me it's better to do what learners of all other languages do, ie. try to speak, as close as possible, like native speakers. And to learn from them. If you want to talk an artificial language, try Esperanto...

Well said Lughaidh.


Ofcourse not all Gaeltacht residents are Irish speakers. And there are many native Irish speakers who raise their children through English. So they would be speaking the standard Irish.

Of course I agree that in speech there is no CO. We all have to choose between cuireag, cuireav, and cuiriú and so on. The best thing to do is choose one dialect and stick with it for pronunciation. Although I tend to imitate the dialect of the person I'm listening to or speaking with. If I hear "go húntach" I expect "cím" and "cloch sa mhuirilte" whereas "go hí-ntach" invites "feicim" and "muinchille". Alas and alack I am less familiar with the northern dialects although I read Na Rosa go Brách and liked the richness of the language in it. Rotha Mór an tSaoil also: "gan an dara suí sa bhuailidh ai'm" ach dul chuig an bhfoclóir go minic.

There's less of an excuse nowadays for Irish speakers not to have good pronunciation with all the audio props available. Some just don't hear the difference however: spéir v spare etc

quote:

There's less of an excuse nowadays for Irish speakers not to have good pronunciation with all the audio props available. Some just don't hear the difference however: spéir v spare etc

The big problem with Irish is that most speakers are learners learning from other learners often having little or no connection at all to native Gaeltacht speakers. In none of the major European languages will you find that to be the case. Learners of Italian, for example, are only too eager to get their hands on a real live native speaker from Florence or Rome or Turin to converse with. The simple fact of the matter is that learners will almost always fall back on their own native language - English in the case of Irish people - unless they have native Irish speakers around them to correct their mistakes and help them progress, and also to whom learners can listen and pick up things themselves. In essence, you have two distinct groups which are most apparent at Oireachtas na Gaeilge, the annual Irish language festival: the Gaeltacht people sit at their end of the bar and converse among themselves, the Gaeilgeoirí from Dublin and elsewhere in Anglophone Ireland sit over at their end of the bar, with little or no mixing between the two. It's the same thing, year in year out.

With Irish, you are also battling against nationalist mythmaking: all Irish people are "Gaels" and "Celts", Irish is Ireland's native language so every Irish person is a native Irish speaker just by being born in Ireland, English is the language of England and the "Saxon oppressor" and has no place in Irish culture or national identity, etc. You'd be amazed at how many people just swallow that kind of stuff without thinking.

That sort of thing can get out of hand at times: I used to hang around with a guy who spoke less than fabulous Irish himself and yet would dismiss any Irish person who either couldn't or didn't want to speak Irish as an "Englishman". When I asked if that meant that his own mother and father who couldn't speak any Irish were therefore not Irish, he was left not having a word to say!

quote:

To me it's better to do what learners of all other languages do, ie. try to speak, as close as possible, like native speakers. And to learn from them. If you want to talk an artificial language, try Esperanto...

I couldn't agree with you more, Lughaidh. As for the CO, I believe it does have a use; in legislation and official State documents and public notices and stuff but that's about it in my opinion. Unfortunatley, though, few learners seem to have twigged that the CO was never intended to be spoken; it's a writing style for official documents. There is no standard spoken Irish. That's why as a student one must focus on one of the living dialects. Native Irish speakers lacked any power of their own for centuries and so a standard spoken Irish was never devised or agreed upon.

(Message edited by carmanach on February 07, 2011)

quote:

In essence, you have two distinct groups which are most apparent at Oireachtas na Gaeilge, the annual Irish language festival: the Gaeltacht people sit at their end of the bar and converse among themselves, the Gaeilgeoirí from Dublin and elsewhere in Anglophone Ireland sit over at their end of the bar, with little or no mixing between the two

That might have little to do with the language. Presumably the Gaeltacht people are the performers at the Oireachtas and the Anglophones are their audience. I bet if you examined the Gaeltacht end further you'd find a Kerry group, a Donegal group, and a Cois Fhairrge group. Further up the bar you'ld find the university dons and Cumann Merriman. Finally you'ld find the employees of Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, paid to be there, who would find comfort in the company of their colleagues. Consider an Irish wedding: no matter how many Paul Joneses are called the various families gravitate to each other. You enjoy your pint best with people you know well. Otherwise you have to answer forty questions on all kinds of topics and you're trying to find out who is who among "that other crowd." I like to speak Irish with friends not with strangers.

quote:

Presumably the Gaeltacht people are the performers at the Oireachtas and the Anglophones are their audience.

That's not necessarily true. You will find native and non-native speakers in both the competitions and the audience.

quote:

I bet if you examined the Gaeltacht end further you'd find a Kerry group, a Donegal group, and a Cois Fhairrge group.

True, but I've often seen people from Conamara and Corca Dhuibhne chatting away to one another at the bar and in the corridors. Rarely will you see the Dublin Gaeilgeoirí speaking with the Gaeltacht people. Your point about people preferring to drink with those they know is a valid one but I suspect also that most of the Dublin Gaeilgeoirí would find it hard to understand what the Gaeltacht people are saying and the Gaeltacht people would probably get tired after a few minutes of having to speak slowly and use simple Irish so that they could be understood.

Yes, there is no Standard pronunciation. In speech, I would call the form based on Standard writing regiolects like "Connacht/Ulster/Munster Standard Irish". Yes, I have myself heard some native speakers from the Gaeltacht. And some of them showed heavy influence from English in their accent. Between numerous Galway citiy and Galway Gaeltacht speakers, I have hardly noticed differences. I have noticed strong differences to a Standard based form mainly from Ulster speakers.
I have read and heard that younger Gaeltacht speakers tend to speak more regiolectally.

Compared to Standard German in Germany, Standard Irish is very few artificial. But somee reforms in writing were indeed a radical break in tradition which was a mistake. Standard German, however, was in former times and still is in Switzerland like a foreign language for most people.

It is MY point of view that it is more use for non-Gaeltacht people to speak regiolectally. I myself do so. This means I use to pronounce words close to its writing in the Standard. If you are living in a (strong) Gaeltacht area, this is a different case.

Of course, the best way to learn is from native speakers, without doubt. But, let us say, a native Italian speaker will not tell the foreigner to take over dialectal forms, but lead him or her to well dominated Standard Italian. If you are living in an area where an Italian dialect is still in widespread use, then you might adopt dialectal Italian.

I can not say from what I have seen that Gaeltacht and non-Gaeltacht people do not mix up. In clubs of the Gaelic League, I have seen visitors with and without Gaeltacht background talking to each other. In the Merriman Company, I have seen both at one table, too, while chatting. In Galway, I have even seen people from the Gaeltacht coming into the city to take part in activities in the Gaelic League's Club.

But there is one point to criticize: At the Ceili of Merriman Company, Irish speakers did not sit together among themselves often enough in my eyes in order to talk in Irish. Perhaps it is not the right way to speak English only if one person at the table has few or no Irish at such events. One could speak Irish and sometimes give the neighbour a summary in English of what has been talked about. Irish speakers ought to practice bilingualism when speaking publically. I myself have given a German folk song at the Ceili and gave an introduction in Irish followed by an English one as some visitors had little or no Irish.

Sin í an phríomhaidhm ná go mbeidh an Ghaeilge ag leanúint mar theanga bheo labhartha gan í a bheith á labhairt le tionchar Bhéarla ró-throm.

Alex

quote:

from the Gaeltacht. And some of them showed heavy influence from English in their accent.

then they aren't Gaeltacht speakers...

quote:

Between numerous Galway citiy and Galway Gaeltacht speakers, I have hardly noticed differences.

Maybe because the Galway city speakers are Connemara speakers who've moved to Galway...

quote:

Compared to Standard German in Germany, Standard Irish is very few artificial. But somee reforms in writing were indeed a radical break in tradition which was a mistake. Standard German, however, was in former times and still is in Switzerland like a foreign language for most people.

Standard Irish looks to be a foreign language to Gaeltacht speakers as well. Ask them what they think about school Irish...

quote:

But, let us say, a native Italian speaker will not tell the foreigner to take over dialectal forms, but lead him or her to well dominated Standard Italian. If you are living in an area where an Italian dialect is still in widespread use, then you might adopt dialectal Italian.

But there's no real reason for that. I've learnt Donegal Irish and with other Irish speakers I speak Donegal Irish, even if they speak Standard or Connemara or Munster Irish. And there's no problem.

quote:

In Galway, I have even seen people from the Gaeltacht coming into the city to take part in activities in the Gaelic League's Club.

Fine. However, I often heard people saying that when they use their Standard Irish in the Gaeltacht, the local people answer in English. (When I use my Donegal Irish in the Gaeltacht, they never answer in English...).

quote:

In my point of view, it is not suitable to chosen a local Gaeltacht dialect with the special feature to delete a syllable in words with central "th".

But he tells you all about it and gives you the pronunciation with the th included also, so I don't get you gripe.

quote:

It is fact that regional influenced Standard Irish is the form mostly used in writing and also in speech. Even in the Gaeltacht, the speech is shifting towards the Standard. The original local Gaeltacht dialects are mostly spoken by older speakers or within a few of the strongest Gaeltacht places. A Gaeltacht woman whom I know well has acknowledged this.

I strongly doubt that anything in Learning Irish is obsolete amongst even the youth who are natives. Even if the Standard greatly influences the dialects, dialects don't disappear (all things being equal).

quote:

I was rather confused when I saw the capital where they explain the differences to the Standard.

Then I must say that you were uninformed about the Standard then. I believe Mícheál gives full disclosure at the beginning of the book. And keep in mind that the Standard is a spelling standard. Every sentence in a book could and probably is a dialectical expression. Once you get some knowledge under your belt about the Standard and your dialect, it is pretty easy to convert them back and forth. Also people don't always write what they speak because of the influence of the Standard on the writing which they learned in school.

quote:

Most of the people you can hear in "Speaking Irish" are native speakers and speak their dialect. So it's a bit in contradiction with what you wrote above...

And the transcriptions in the back is written in phonetic Irish, that is, not the Standard spelling (for the most part).

quote:

If you want to talk an artificial language, try Esperanto...

There are better ones to choose!

I think incorporating the Standard in with a dialect is not difficult, and is not as extreme as some make out in debate. In some case, the two are too different to be reconciled, so you have to choose. But in other cases, the two are very similar, e.g., madrá and madadh. Now I'll use madadh, and I doubt anyone who has studied Irish, or spoken it for very long will have trouble with it. The same applies to the synthetic and analytic verb forms. People learn and they know it. I don't see any dialectical confusion amongst the people I interact with, and if they don't know, I am sure they look it up, as normal people do. So there is this false situation created that people and their dialects are sort of not understanding each other unless they have the Standard. I have never come across it. Relating to Learning Irish, it would be a first choice book for someone interested in Conamara Irish. There's just no debate there. If you need to be informed about the Standard, you can get all the forms through your big dictionary. Very simple, I think.

Well, I have asked if they are from the Gaeltacht when speaking to people in Galway city. Therefore I am sure not to have always heard if somebody has a Gaeltacht background or not.

I am sure, too, that English influence has crept into the Gaeltacht, except for the strongest ones. The most evident change is the pronunciation of the broad r. Almost all native speakers I heard pronounced it like an English r and rarely like a trilled one. The Gaeltacht woman whom I know well said to me that the trilled r has been common in former times in Muskerry and has shifted to the English-like one in more recent times.
The speakers in the course "Learning Irish" trill the broad r, but on the DVD of "Speaking Irish", the native speakers do not.. By the way: Not all speakers on this DVD are native speakers. When in Ireland for the first time, I did not trill the broad r either because I would have appeared as being exotic.

For the beginner, the concept of writing dialectal forms and explaining the variations to the Standard is rather confusing. Another disadvantage of this course is that the vocabulary is not primarily aimed at everyday talking. "Teach yourself Irish" is focussing more on colloquial Irish. Yes, Micheál Ó Siadhail luckily has mentioned that the central "th" may be pronounced in other dialects. I have chosen to do so either because it is closer to spelling. In my first post to this thread, I have not yet found the suitable term "regiolect". But this term is indeed suitable for spoken Irish based on Standard spelling.


Alex

(Message edited by AlexderFranke on February 07, 2011)

quote:

By the way: Not all speakers on this DVD are native speakers.

That's true. There are native speakers, and learners with a high level of Irish. The book points out most of those people, by saying stuff like so-and-so picked this up by learning Irish in Conamara. None of them are "standard" speakers, though, and some of them show quite rare dialectical features, e.g., áiteachaí (double plural).

quote:

Even if the Standard greatly influences the dialects

It doesn't.

quote:

Esperanto...


There are better ones to choose!

As artificial languages? Well, Esperanto is the most spoken. Anyway an artificial language is an artificial language... to me it's not interesting.

quote:

The most evident change is the pronunciation of the broad r. Almost all native speakers I heard pronounced it like an English r and rarely like a trilled one.

Funny. I've never heard any native speaker who pronounces r as in English, except some younger speakers from Munster. Actually, listening to the r's is one of the ways to know if a speaker is native or not (since almost all native speakers use one-tap alveolar r's and almost all non-native speakers use the English r's).

Now the Irish broad r's aren't trilled (except some r's by older speakers) : they are one-tap alveolar r's. But still they aren't like English r's at all.

quote:

When in Ireland for the first time, I did not trill the broad r either because I would have appeared as being exotic.

One-tap alveolar r's would have just sounded native... It is the English r that is "exotic". I've never used English r's in Irish (I wouldn't even manage, maybe).

Lughaidh,

I remember you saying at one point that some dialects of Irish used to have four r sounds (perhaps I'm wrong). I always hear the one-tap broad r and the slender r (I don't know how to describe slender r in linguistic terms).

What are (were) the other two r sounds?

Thanks.

Crazy that you, Lughaidh, notice things differently. Perhaps you have mainly been speaking to speakers from the fíor-Ghaeltacht.

I have heard pure native accents mainly from speakers of Central Donegal and sometimes from Central Conamara. In Muskerry, I have heard accents heavily influenced by Irish English from younger native speakers.

I am not 100% sure if they have pronounced the broad r exactly like in English. But I am sure to have noticed strong differences even between native speakers as to the English influence in accent. The accent of many native speakers seemed to me to be nearly the same as that of Irish English speakers.

Mar sin féin, ní iontas é an scéal sin nuair atá an Béarla mar theanga ollmhór timpeall na tíre. Is gá aire a thabhairt nach n-éireodh tionchar an Bhéarla ró-throm.

Alex

(Message edited by AlexderFranke on February 08, 2011)

quote:

I remember you saying at one point that some dialects of Irish used to have four r sounds (perhaps I'm wrong). I always hear the one-tap broad r and the slender r (I don't know how to describe slender r in linguistic terms).

What are (were) the other two r sounds?

the double broad r is a trilled r (more than one tap) ; the double slender r may be a longer slender r but I'm not sure, I think it has disappeared a while ago, I don't know how it sounded.

quote:

Crazy that you, Lughaidh, notice things differently. Perhaps you have mainly been speaking to speakers from the fíor-Ghaeltacht.

Yeah, people from NW Donegal, from Connemara, from Inis Mor, from Kerry (English r) and from West Cork (English r).

quote:

The accent of many native speakers seemed to me to be nearly the same as that of Irish English speakers.

What do you mean with "accent"? The general prosody, or even the consonants and vowels?

quote:

Yeah, people from NW Donegal, from Connemara, from Inis Mor, from Kerry (English r) and from West Cork (English r).

Lughaidh, no one uses an English r in Corca Dhuibhne nor in Uíbh Ráthach when Irish was spoken there nor in West Muskerry, when the language was spoken as a community language by all. I don't know what put that in your head. Corca Dhuibhne for example has a flapped broad r and a fricative slender r. Nothing "English" about it.

As for the other poster saying that there is no discernible difference between the pronunciation of natives and non-natives, that is patently untrue in most instances. True, there are learners of a very high standard whose Irish is difficult to distinguish from that of real Gaeltacht people but such learners are very rare indeed. It is important not to confuse the Irish of the strong Gaeltacht areas with that of the weak ones. One thing I notice down south in the weak areas is how school Irish takes over from the local dialects when the language ebbs away and is no longer a community language. This is because the school becomes the only place where Irish is used at all and so it's out with "Gaelainn" and in with "Gaeilge" or "Gwaylguh" with Anglophone pronunciation. I've noticed that sort of thing in Clear Island where the older people have native pronunciation but the younger people speak with an Anglophone pronunciation if they even speak the language among themselves at all which is unlikely nowadays.

It's important to bear in mind as well that much of the original Irish phonology survives in the English of some areas where Irish has recently become extinct. This can be heard in parts of west Cork and Kerry; places like Béarra and Sheep's Head, for example. Such traits as the local English has absorbed from the phonology of the previous Irish generally only last a generation or two at most before vanishing. Younger people are unlikely to have the Irish flapped r of their parents, for example, though it can depend on the education level of the person and their exposure to the outside world.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but isn't there a special rule for retaining the English r sound in loan words? (somewhat like the t sound in the word 'tae')

For instance, I remember being perplexed as an unsuspecting beginner by the retroflex English r in the word 'rang' on a tape accompanying Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish". And don't broadcasters on RnaG also pronounce 'raidió' with the English r?

Would anybody be able to comment on that?

quote:

Lughaidh, no one uses an English r in Corca Dhuibhne nor in Uíbh Ráthach when Irish was spoken there nor in West Muskerry, when the language was spoken as a community language by all. I don't know what put that in your head.

What put that in my head? Hearing people from there who pronounced like that!
My teacher was from Dunquin, she was about 35 y.o. Native speaker. I can even tell you her name (but in a private message or by e-mail) if you want to know.
Same thing with my teacher from Muskerry, he was from Muskerry/Ballyvourney, about 30 y.o. maybe, native speaker. I can tell you his name too...

quote:

Corca Dhuibhne for example has a flapped broad r and a fricative slender r. Nothing "English" about it.

Looks like not 100% of the speakers use them, then.
By the way, if I remember well, the singer Seosaimhin Ni Bheaglaoich (from Corca Dhuibhne) uses "English r's" most of the time when she sings in English.

quote:

For instance, I remember being perplexed as an unsuspecting beginner by the retroflex English r in the word 'rang' on a tape accompanying Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish". And don't broadcasters on RnaG also pronounce 'raidió' with the English r?

Initial r may be pronounced like English r sometimes even in strong dialects (Donegal sometimes). Before that (older speakers) it was a trilled r (except when the r was lenited).

Thanks for your comment, Lughaidh!

Indeed, on the "Learning Irish" tape the same speaker uses both English and Irish r's in the word 'rang', sometimes preferring one, sometimes the other, with no apparent reason, and I would say without being aware of this inconsistency. So perhaps we are dealing with two allophones that are equally valid in some cases (e.g. initial position)?

Not that I'm obsessed by this particular sound. It's just curious how the language works. :)

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Indeed, on the "Learning Irish" tape the same speaker uses both English and Irish r's in the word 'rang', sometimes preferring one, sometimes the other, with no apparent reason, and I would say without being aware of this inconsistency. So perhaps we are dealing with two allophones that are equally valid in some cases (e.g. initial position)?

Yes that's it, at least for some speakers.

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What put that in my head? Hearing people from there who pronounced like that!
My teacher was from Dunquin, she was about 35 y.o. Native speaker. I can even tell you her name (but in a private message or by e-mail) if you want to know.
Same thing with my teacher from Muskerry, he was from Muskerry/Ballyvourney, about 30 y.o. maybe, native speaker. I can tell you his name too...

Well, I can tell you that English style r is certainly not the norm. There are younger people, yes, particularly women, who will use that English style r. You can hear that from a certain newsreader, for example. It depends very much on the individual and what sort of upbringing they had. It doesn't surprise me that someone in the 30 - 40 age group would have such English pronunciation but listen to the older people and you won't hear any English r's.

As for Muskerry, the language is so weak there now that you would be surprised to hear anything other than English pronunciation.

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Looks like not 100% of the speakers use them, then.
By the way, if I remember well, the singer Seosaimhin Ni Bheaglaoich (from Corca Dhuibhne) uses "English r's" most of the time when she sings in English.

Indeed she does. I was chatting with a colleague of mine about this and he himself brought up Seosaimhín Ní Bheaglaoich without me mentioning her! He agrees with me that such r's are not part of the traditional dialect and says that nowadays there are still good traditional speakers in CD but also a number of mediocre speakers. In light of all that, it would be inaccurate to say that Corca Dhuibhne or Múscraí have English style r's.

Generally speaking, you do agree with me. I did not say that English-style pronunciation is the rule today.
But I have myself noticed: The younger the native speakers, the more often English influence in Irish speech occurs. And the weaker the Gaeltacht is and/or the less far away from non-Gaeltacht area it lies, the more often English influence occurs.
Even from young speakers, I have heard no English influenced features at all from those ones from Gweedore/Gaoth Dobhair. In Central Conamara, it is most probably the same.
From other Gaeltachts, I have heard such speech mostly from people aged 40 or 50 and upwards. But when looking at a report about a cooperative in Gweedore and surrounding area, you will notice remarkable differences between young and older speakers even there.
The most terrible does it sound if slender r is pronunced as English-style r what I have heard almost exclusively in Dubblin.
On the other hand, the Gaeltacht woman I know says that Irish English speakers do not always pronounce the r exactly like speakers from England. Irish in Muskerry is and is not weak. For most people, it is not the general community language any more whereas the situation is better in Coolea/Caol Aodha than Ballyvourney/Baile Bhúirne. I have read an article that reports that Ballyvourney is enduring as a Breac-Ghaeltacht since the 20ies. On the other hand, there are some renitent families left and most people do not want to loose Irish so that Muskerry becomes equal to the national average.

Mar sin féin, sin í an príomhscéal go fanfaidh an Ghaeilge labhraithe mar theanga dúchais amach anseo. Sílim go bhfuil athruithe éigin dosheachaint faoin mBéarla mar theanga ollmhór in Éirinn.

Alex

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But I have myself noticed: The younger the native speakers, the more often English influence in Irish speech occurs. And the weaker the Gaeltacht is and/or the less far away from non-Gaeltacht area it lies, the more often English influence occurs.

True and that is exactly what we would expect as the language gradually disappears. English is strongest in the weaker Gaeltacht areas because English is the dominant language there. In fact for places like Ballyvourney and Ballinskelligs and most of the Mayo Gaeltachtaí for example, "Gaeltacht" is a misnomer. Irish has not been spoken as the main community language in either of those places for a quite years.

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From other Gaeltachts, I have heard such speech mostly from people aged 40 or 50 and upwards. But when looking at a report about a cooperative in Gweedore and surrounding area, you will notice remarkable differences between young and older speakers even there.

Yes, and in Corca Dhuibhne it is generally those above fifty years of age who still retain indigenous phonology. Usage is very mixed below that age.

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The most terrible does it sound if slender r is pronunced as English-style r what I have heard almost exclusively in Dubblin.

Irish has been extinct as a native spoken language in Dublin probably since the early nineteenth century. The Irish language enthusiasts of modern Dublin are all native Anglophone learners of Irish who almost all use English language phonology in their spoken Irish. There are a handful of individuals in Dublin who call themselves native speakers but these are almost all the offspring of learners themselves and their Irish is therefore on the whole indistinguishable from that of learners. A big give away is the almost total lack of lenition and eclipsis in the Irish of Dublin neo-natives or a best a hazy understanding of such. Few Gaeltacht speakers, you will find, are confused about where lenition and eclipsis should occur.

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On the other hand, the Gaeltacht woman I know says that Irish English speakers do not always pronounce the r exactly like speakers from England.

No, they don't but nor do the vast majority of Hiberno-English speakers pronounce their r's like indigenous Irish language r's either. I'm not aware of the slender fricative r being used in any Hiberno-English dialect. Flapped r's do survive among the older generation in places like west Cork and Kerry. Hiberno-English was certainly influenced by Irish in its early history but that influence was brief and of limited extent in most of Ireland. A common fallacy that is trotted out in these arguments is that the phonology of Hiberno-English is one and the same as that of Irish meaning that whatever some learner of Irish says must be correct. The fact that dialects as far from each other as those of Tory Island and Clear Island can share so many phonological features absent from Hiberno-English and the fact that most Anglophone learners of Irish have such difficulties with native Irish phonology shows that the fallacy I mention above is exactly that.

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I have read an article that reports that Ballyvourney is enduring as a Breac-Ghaeltacht since the 20ies.

I find that hard to believe. I would imagine that Ballyvourney would have retained its Fíor-Ghaeltacht status well into the 1960s.

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Mar sin féin, sin í an príomhscéal go fanfaidh an Ghaeilge labhraithe mar theanga dúchais amach anseo. Sílim go bhfuil athruithe éigin dosheachaint faoin mBéarla mar theanga ollmhór in Éirinn.

Do shéid daoine a gcuid Gaelainne uathu agus do ghlacadar an Béarla chucu féin mar go raibh gnó acu dho. Níl aon ghnó ag éinne don nGaelainn san aimsir seo againne. Nil aon cheangal ar éinne Gaelainn a labhairt agus tá Béarla ges na' héinne. Fágann san go n-imeoidh an teanga mar theanga dhúchaiseach.

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On the other hand, the Gaeltacht woman I know says that Irish English speakers do not always pronounce the r exactly like speakers from England.

umm I wonder if I do...

Is canteoir dúchais Gaeilge thú, a Bhríd:)

I do not want to say that there is no reason to worry about. But Irish is fat from being lost in most of the Gaeltacht districts although English has spread in everyday life. In Ballyvourney/Baile Bhúirne and Dingle/An Daingean, I have seen it myself. I would classify the Gaeltacht of today as strongly bilingual area with a few Irish-speaking places. In a pub in Ballyvourney/Baile Bhúirne, I have seen a meesagebord with private advertisements mostly in Irish. And nearly everybody understood Irish. In Dingle/An Daingean, I have seen many private signs in Irish and have heard Irish in a supermarket. I am worrying the most about most parts of Mayo Gaeltacht. The official Gaeltacht status of a few Galway city suburbs, however, does not make sense any more.

But even in Galway city, there is a bit of a Gaeltacht under the cover. I have one time experienced a special surprise in an ordinary pub. At first the barkeeper hesitate to speak back in Irish. When I did not give up, I have finally heard wonderful Irrish from him and a few other guests followed to chat in Irish towards me. I thought why on earth they hide their Irish until it is awakened. From talks I know that they did not come from the Gaeltacht.

Many languages have experienced influence from prestiguous or powerful languages. The grammar of many European languages is much influenced by Latin. The right way is in my point of view between a corrupted language and putting the demands for good speech too high.

Le a chríochnú, tarraingíonn an cúrsa ó M. Ó Siadhal pictiúr ón nGaeltacht agus ó chainteoirí Gaeltachta nach bhfreastalaíonn i gcónaí leis an réaltacht ón lá atá inniu ann.

Go n-éirí bhur nGaeilge libh.

Alex

Lughaigh:

Are you talking about a sound of "r" like in Spanish? "pero" - which is like a one hit of the tongue, and the "rr" which is like "perro", which has multiple hits of the tongue. I had heard on my Tús Maith courses that the "r" does indeed sound like the spanish "one hit" r. I thought maybe that was only a northern thing.

Slán,
Faber