Out of curiosity, how long could it take for a person to pick up the ability to speak fluent Irish?

That is a "how long is a piece of string" question.

Some never become fluent; others are fluent after a few months immersion (the best, perhaps the only, way to achieve fluency).

I recall in a German class three to four students who had some previous study, and became relatively fluent from spending one summer with a family. They still made quite a few mistakes, used colloquialisms that the teacher thought were less desirable, and were ignorant of the finer points of grammar, but they could actually converse with the teacher about these points without resorting to English. But then most people who pick up a second language, unless they live with that language every day, will say that they will still feel that there are deficiencies.

I've been at it for nigh-on fourteen years and I don't consider my self anywhere near fluent. I have a job that keeps me busy, and I lack extensive immersion (I do attend three immersion weekends a year, but I also take many new students with me who have no Irish). Just a note, I make the most progress when I have time to consistently (daily) read books a little above my level (things geared for middle-schoolers...Rosetta Stone helped a lot as well).

How long if you were to live in a Gaeltacht and speak and hear nothing but Irish? I would suppose between six months and a year.

If that second option is available to you, review the documentary "In The Name Of The Fada" -- aside from being very funny, you can see how Des gets past my level in 6 mos and is essentially fluent by the end of the year (six episodes).

I've wondered this too. I mostly blame my motivation because I've been studying for about 3 years now but it has been on and off. There are months where I'm going hard studying and reading every day and there are months when I don't really do much at all (which not only doesn't help me progress but actually has a negative effect).

I take a class that meets once a week and regardless of how much I study in between classes I still feel that I am keeping up with the class but I wonder at the rate that we're going in the class which will come first, me becoming fluent or my life running out of time.

The hardest thing by far with learning the language is not only do I not have access to immersion (aside from weekends like previously mentioned) but I don't even have people around with as little Irish as me or more to even try any conversation on a day-to-day basis.

On a side note, I have seen "In The Name Of The Fada" and agree it was very funny and also made me jealous. I wish I had the opprutunity to travel to a Gaeltacht area and live there for 6 months only speaking Irish

quote:

The hardest thing by far with learning the language is not only do I not have access to immersion (aside from weekends like previously mentioned) but I don't even have people around with as little Irish as me or more to even try any conversation on a day-to-day basis.

That's my reality. But I acknowledge that as reality and realize my weakest point will be speaking. (But there is Skype, etc.!) Listening is better because of the audio available. And reading and writing can be up to a native level. That's just reality, and I realize that when I find a situation, the previous foundation will make it much easier to be fluent while speaking. Go with what you have, I say.

Aonghus, I am wondering where you can go for 6 months' immersion. As far as I know, nowhere. It would be great if such courses were set up. There are immersion courses in China (eg 3 months, lessons every day, all lunch times spent with the Chinese teachers, living with a Chinese family, and a strict rule that if you are caught speaking English you are off the program - see for example the princeton university summer course in Beijing http://www.princeton.edu/~pib/aboutpib.html).

I haven't been to the Gaeltacht areas in Kerry - compared with Muskerry, can these be considered to offer "immersion" just by living there? I am not sure an outside visitor can become immersed, however long he lives there. So as far as I know Aonghus, there are only "immersion weekends", which are not long enough to do anything.

I wouldn't know; but there are courses of a couple of weeks in length.

I have heard foreigners who lived a period in a Gaeltacht and were fluent. (Indeed I have heard foreigners who were fluent without having set foot in Ireland, ach sin scéal eile)

quote:

I have heard foreigners who lived a period in a Gaeltacht and were fluent. (Indeed I have heard foreigners who were fluent without having set foot in Ireland, ach sin scéal eile)

Much as I would like to have been one of them, it isn't happening for me, I'm afraid. Some people have greater aptitude. I would need a long period in the Gaeltacht myself.

http://www.oidhreacht.ie/cursai.asp

quote:

Deineann Oidhreacht Chorca Dhuibhne freastal ar fhoglaimeoirí Gaoluinne ag gach aon leibhéal líofachta, ó Ghlantosnaitheoirí go dtí an Ardleibhéal agus go dtí Cúrsaí Oiliúna Teanga do Chainteoirí Gaoluinne. Reachtáltar na cúrsaí seo ar fad i gceantar Bhaile an Fheirtéaraigh, i gcroílár Ghaeltacht Chorca Dhuibhne agus áit a bhfuil cáil air maidir lena áilleacht is saibhreas seandálaíochta.

Aonghus, there is an excessive focus on the Irish schoolchildren, so when you look for summer colleges, they are nearly all for schoolchildren. What is that about?

I know there is a 2 week course for adults in Ballyferriter, but I am not a child anymore, and don't want to sit in classes. So for me its one-to-one lessons only.

But there ought to be a residential long-stay college for adults of various levels, where you can get immersion. I'm not sure anyone wants to spend any more money now though...

quote:

What is that about?

That is the market!

I am sure you could find somebody in one of the Gaelatchtaí who would provide board, lodging and classes. Especially in winter!

I suggest you contact Oidhreacht Corca Dhuibhne.

Go pearsanta, bhíos ag foghlaim Gaelinn do dhá bhliana go dtí seo. Ní raibh sé ach an bhliain seo cáite go rabhas-sa níos tuiscineach (more comprehensive?) i maidir le mo chuid Gaelinn, nuair a raibh níos mó am saor agam.

Níl mé baileach cinnte céard ba mhaith leat a chuir in iúl le bheith "níos comprehensive"

Tuiscint níos fearr?

Nó an amhlaidh go raibh tú níos cuimsithí i do chuir chuige?

There's a lady from somewhere in Eastern Europe working in our local shop and she keeps a notebook of phrases in Irish. She uses them with all and sundry and when anyone responds with a new phrase she asks its meaning, tries to reproduce it, probably writes it down in her own way, and says it back to you when next you come in. She verifies phrases with other customers and is quite proud of her ever-lengthening list. Her customers are surprised at her interest and also amazed at their own knowledge of Irish remembered from schooldays. They are pleased to add to her list and teach her as much as they know. Every day. Her interest in learning Irish has made her much less of a foreigner to us.

Fáinne óir uirthi!

Dála an scéil, an bhfuil tú cinnte nach as Lár na hEorpa di?

Get a job on a farm.

Seanw a farmer told me 'there's no work in farming now,not like the old days.you just open one gate and shut another.'

But don't quote me I beg you.A job on a farm indeed.

Taidghín,I heard of such a woman i nGaillimh.I wonder is she the same person?

Nílim in ann an tír arb as í a litriú i mBéarla, Poblacht na Seice.

MacDara: I doubt it unless bilocation, dé-ionadas, is possible.

I came across another eachtrannach a few years ago, ón Ind nó less -- or is it an India -- who could speak a little Irish fairly well. He had far more phrases at his command than your average pass LC of 1999.

I asked him why he had learnt it. His English was liberally sprinkled with Dublin expletives but he had been a bar manager in a well-known watering hole and as he put it himself he got so sick of these Dublin bleep bleeps switching to Irish at closing time to annoy him that he decided to learn their code and found that they knew little or no Irish beyond the few nonsensical phrases they could remember from school. It was easy for him to address them in Irish and deprive them of that satisfaction.

Shades of Dónall Mac Amhlaoibh and "Dialann Deoraí" where two navvies took to reciting the Lord's Prayer in Irish at each other, each taking alternate phrases pretending they could speak Irish and were just as good as the other non-English speakers who did have their own native language.

Peter Maurin said, “There is no unemployment on the land.” It's out there, but you've got to find it. I just mention it as a practical way to get close to someone who speaks Irish. For instance, on the boat over to Árainn Mhór (Conamara) there was an Polish man who learned Irish just by being part of the boat crew. So there are ways to ingratiate yourself with Irish speakers.

The longest course duration I'm aware of is a single one month course with Acadamh na hOllscolaíochta Gaeilge in An Cheathrú Rua, although technically you can go longer at Oideas Gael. I met some people from both Canada and the USA there who were going to be staying for six weeks or more as part of some exchange programme, although some class repetition was involved.

Unless you're well off and can afford to move to the Gaeltacht (or stay there for a year like Des) it's hard to have long term immersion as a learner. It's not like most languages where you can just go to an urban area and be surrounded by the language.

Are there many personal tutors about in Ireland?

What have you in mind by "a personal tutor"? What would you expect? There are any number of teachers offering "grinds" to those preparing for exams but the idea of a student learning Irish for its own sake outside the state or university examination systems is seldom encountered. I myself was one such learner.

Probably an unrealistic idea but I was thinking of a private tutor outside of class hours. Someone you pay for one on one sessions. For example, I have two 75 minute classes a week plus one 30 minute one on one conversation/Q & A session per week and it's not nearly enough...

quote:

Nílim in ann an tír arb as í a litriú i mBéarla, Poblacht na Seice.

Sin, mar a mhearóidh Michal duit, Lár na hEorpa! Ón Íoslainn go dtí Sléibhte na Urals críocha na hEorpa, ón Rinn Thuaidh go dtí caolais na Darndanelles...

Lár na hEorpa, Oirthear na hEorpa, Iarthar na hEorpa - níl iontu san ach coincheapa suibíochtúla, dálta na hEorpa í féin.

I recommend a private tutor as an excellent way of improving your Irish. I myself had a tutor a woman from An Cheathrú Rua for 3 months for one and a quarter hour sessions once a week. We only did spoken Conamara Irish and I would repeat the words after her and then write them down in a notebook. I asked her about different subjects weather, food and all other colloquialisms. I'm sure an ad in the Irish Echo or contacting the Irish Associations in the cities will find you a native speaker willing to tutor.

Réimse tíreolaíochta atá i gceist; agus teorannach cinnte leis an Eoraip.

Baintear mí-fheidhm as an téarma chun cuir síos ar réimsí níos lú polaitíochta, ach sin ceist eile.

quote:

Réimse tíreolaíochta atá i gceist; agus teorannach cinnte leis an Eoraip.

Ach níl teorainneacha cinnte leis an Eoraip! Ní réimse ceart tíreolaíochta ná mór-roinn ó cheart í an Eoraip ach cuid do mhór-roinn na hEoráise.

Géillim duit, sórt.

Ach leanfaidh mé orm ag tabhairt lár na hEorpa ar an tSeic, mar a bhí riamh, mar atá fós, agus mar a bheidh go deo!

(Tá ann a chuireann an Ghréig in Iarthar na hEorpa, agus an Pholainn san Oirthear, ach nílim ina measc! An teoiric atá agam ná go mbraitheann sin a an eite ónár tháinig an deachtóireacht is déanaí i Stáit. Eite dheis -> Iarthar; eite clé -> Oirthear. )

quote:

I recommend a private tutor as an excellent way of improving your Irish.

If this was available to me I would absolutely try private tutoring.

Any native speakers in the NJ area of the US please let me know if you would be interested in private tutoring...

Paploo,
Try looking up the people here:

http://www.daltai.com/classes/mid_atl.htm

A pity in France I cannot find anybody interested in Irish around me . The only people I know who practise Irish are in Paris or as everybody knows here in Brittany (i.e. Lughaidh). Too far from me!
Nevertheless I stick to it and do my best . But it's rather hard. good to be in touch (virtually) with you all, though!

Jehan, move to Brittany!

I'd love to ! beautiful country ! but I might as well move to Ireland, directly into the gaeltacht . That'd be more practical !

I know people who have learnt Irish in about 3 months - in CCÁ in Belfast.

Takes going every night and doing everything elese possible as well.

What is CCÁ?

Cumann Chluain Árd - it is an Irish language learning society / social club.

It is open in the evenings Mon, Wed, Thurs, Sat (at least it was when I was there last).

There are formal (exclusively oral) classes three nights a week as well as a host of other activities.

Famous as the last stronghold of pre-standard spelling and an adherence to Gaeltacht Irish, especially Donegal Irish - although all types of Irish will be heard.

Many people are members having learnt Irish exclusively orally in the Cumann - many from a young age.

O - there is of course a bar.

The Cumann has existed as an exclusively Irish speaking place for 70 years - and still going.

Cumann Chluain Árd has only ever taken one 'deontas' - and that was for the new bar.

Great Guiness and Harp - dont expect anything else - and if you want it to be cleaner - there is a mop out the back - away you go.

Ggn, maybe I'd learn more Irish in Belfast than in the Gaeltacht?

I would not necessarily say that - but there are some advantages.

1. 2 centres where Irish is spoken
2. A number of very Irish speaking pubs
3 a variety of social events from religous groups to sport to entertainment - every night of the week.
4. classes of every type available every night of the week - even in the morning.

There are some big disadvantages to learning in an urban enviroment however.

There are many Gaeltacht speakers in Belfast but a wide selection of Irish is to be found - no one can escape influence from the Irish spoken around them ... for example.

Ggn, I might one day spend a few months in Belfast just to attend - there are no classes at all in the Cork Gaeltacht... my only doubt being whether the people of Belfast would welcome an Englishman learning Irish... I suppose as long as I am speaking Irish they won't even know I am English... but it does seem there is more enthusiasm in BF than elsewhere in Ireland - I don't think such facilities are available in Cork for example.

I think you'll be fine unless you start talking about how Ireland and the UK should be one nation. The usual tact is required.

I believe they do stuff in Corca Dhuibhne, though. If you're looking to learn a Munster dialect, that might be a better bet.

That said, I've not been to either place. I'm guessing the Belfast facilities are more extensive, but that's just a hunch...

Seánw, I would show tact in Belfast, but I think tact is required all round - there is a peace process on, and it is a two-way process, not a one-way process - the idea is that both Irish nationalism and Ulster Unionism are accorded parity of esteem - and it is a goal of the Irish language movement in the North that Unionists be invited and encouraged to learn Irish. There is an organisation, I think called Ultach that specifically encourages that.

I am pretty positive that there are Irish classes in Múscraí - the local development compay should be able to help.

As to Belfast, whilst one is adviced always to use common sense, I cant see a problem.

There are some very 'neutral' classes etc. but these are unlikely to bring you into contact with the 'living' language.

I think there are occasional classes in Muskerry - I don't think there are continuous classes - and the existence of Irish classes in the Gaeltacht, for locals presumably, is indicative that the Irish is on its way out - and I don't think anything as intensive as what you outlined in BF is available.

I agree, Corkirish. I actually think that the Irish language is an important part of the peace process.

quote:

I agree, Corkirish. I actually think that the Irish language is an important part of the peace process.

How so?

Carmanach, it is because it is possible for Protestants to take interest in the language separately from political issues. Culture and heritage issues allow for something more meaningful than just politics, something objectively interesting that moves on from stale arguments.

Yes, finding a common cultural bond outside religious and political questions. Now obviously language is bound up with these two, but if they look at the movement's history, they will see that it is more diverse than some would have you think. I also think that Ulster Irish has some unique bonds with Scottish which could help people who have that background (or part of it) to engage in Irish culture without a sense of betraying their heritage. Every person is different, but Irish in the north is slowly breaking the artificial bonds it has been put into by both sides. And I think that a debate about key questions in the north could be fruitful through the medium of Irish as well. Also any Unionist with sense can see that the policies in Scotland, Wales, and England have been more accommodating of minority languages of late than in their own backyard. The stranglehold on the north needs to be loosened, and any northerner who has a head can see beyond the ideology that they all are being treated differently than their countrymen on the other island.

Isn't it true that Scottish Gaelic began from (Ulster) Irish Settlers who spoke some form of old or middle Irish? I thought thats why they spoke a Gaelic language in the highlands as opposed to the Brythonic languages spoken on the rest of Great Britain.

I don't remember where I read that. Probably Wikipedia so I'm not sure of its accuracy or not.

On a somewhat side note, does anyone know how easily a speaker of Ulster Irish can speak to someone speaking Scottish Gaelic? Is it comparable to someone speaking Italian and Spanish to each other?

(I don't have any experience with any of the above language except for the little bit of Irish that I know but I've heard that Italians can speak with people speaking Spanish and vice versa enough to get by)

Yes, that is how it got there. I don't know about mutual intelligibility. I have heard stories of people communicating. Keep in mind, though, that even in Donegal only a certain portion of that population use the features common to Scottish Gaelic. They are mostly centered in north Donegal.

Seeing as Irish was never the preferred language (indeed, most had no knowledge of it) of Protestant settlers in northern Ireland (note the lowercase n) it's not surprising that few have any interest in it. Its associations with violent republicanism have only added to the suspicion many feel towards the language. In my opinion this is regrettable, but not surprising.

The reality is that Protestant involvement in the Irish 'revival' has been overblown in an attempt to portray the language (or rather its most vocal defenders?) as non-sectarian and 'open to everyone' and not the sole preserve of rabid republicans. Which is true. It's not sectarian. However, trying to portray this to the point of blatant revisionism is unfortunate.

And that's despite the involvement of Davis, Revd Neilson, Hyde, Comyn, MacAdam, Rose Young, Ó Gláisne and others over the years...



Four books which cover these subjects (Protestant revivalists, Irish in NI, Protestant learners today etc) in detail include:

Belfast and the Irish Language (Four Courts Press, 2006), edited by Fionntán de Brún

The Irish Language in Northern Ireland: The Politics of Culture and Identity, Camille C. O'Reilly (MACMILLAN PRESS, 1999)

The Symbolic Significance of the Irish Language in the Northern Ireland Conflict, Lisa Goldenberg (The Columba Press, 2002)

The Irish Language in NORTHERN IRELAND, edited by Aodán Mac Póilin (ULTACH Trust, 1997)


I've read all four. The book by de Brún in particular is excellent and The Irish Language in Northern Ireland (Mac Póilin) is particulary interesting because it is a series of essays (read 'The unionist government and the Irish language 1921-1943 - fascinating stuff). Some of the contributors are Protestants who have learned Irish and now use it daily. One is even an unrepentant unionist!

The less politicised the language becomes the better, but I'm not holding my breath.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on November 15, 2010)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on November 15, 2010)

quote:

The less politicised the language becomes the better, but I'm not holding my breath.

Nor am I. It suits both major parties in the North - the DUP and Sinn Féin - as a football to show there own tribe that they are committed to principles, at a time when they are forced to compromise on other more painful matters because Westminster is tightening the purse strings.

As far as I know, genealogical research normally shows that the 2 communities were not separate in the past - certainly nothing like as separate a they are today. Most Roman Catholics have Protestant ancestors too. Most Unionists have Roman Catholic ancestors too. So the Unionist people are descended from Irish speakers.

In my case, my Trainor ancestors were from Co. Down, where I am descended from a Nicholas Trainor married to a Mary Cunningham. I am also descended from Patrick Turbitt of Co. Tyrone, but there are Daly's and Callans on the Turbitt side too. I think this is the norm in Northern Irish genealogy.

Yes, I too suspect that the more passionate learners in Northern Ireland are also the stauncher Republicans, but it is better for the Irish language not to be associated too firmly with one very particular political point of view. I have to admire the way the language has blossomed there without government support -- as a libertarian, that is interesting to me.

Part of the reason it has blossomed in the face of government antipathy is just that - as a badge of identity and as a concious exercise in reclaiming nationality. That makes it difficult to extricate it from politics - on both sides.

http://ga-ie.facebook.com/people/Cumann-Chluain-Ard/100000444638332

Facebook CCÁ.

http://www.culturlann.ie/

Cultúrlann.

http://www.androichead.com/

An Droichead in South Belfast.

"Cultureland" as it's known locally :D - I was there. Fantastic facility.

I ordered a book from "An Ceathru Póilí" (the bookshop on the Cultúrlann's ground floor) about 2 years ago, and got it through my letterbox two days later, postage-free (within the UK, of course). A few months later I went out of my way to visit the bookshop - but the whole groundfloor was closed to business due to some kind of refurbishment work. Still, I was allowed to browse among the books at my leisure - but not allowed to buy one. I'll be back though.

Corkirish/David: "...the existence of Irish classes in the Gaeltacht, for locals presumably, is indicative that Irish is on its way out..."
In Gaoth Dobhair, "croílár Ghaeltacht Thír Chonaill", there are Irish classes - aimed not at "locals" (all of whom would have Irish) but at the large number of "immigrants" during the Tiger Years: the non-Irish speaking children of returning emigrant native-speakers; the newly retired non-Irish speaking descendants of emigrants; the Eastern Europeans; the occasional politician trying his best... (Which is not to say it's not on its way out).

http://www.ccmr156.com/

Cumann Mhic Reachtain i dtuaisceart Bhéal Feirste.

http://tinyurl.com/34s65ql

Gaeltacht Bhóthar Seoighe (nó Pobal Feirste) mar a deir siad féin.

http://www.linenhall.com/programme.asp

Linen Hall Library.

The bars you are likely to hear Irish spoken in Belfast city centre are Kelly's Cellars and Maddens.

Most (all?) GAA clubs in Belfast will run Irish classes.

There are IME schools throughout the city, almost all of whom run Irish classes.

This by the way is a list of places to learn Irish in the official Gaeltacht.

http://www.udaras.ie/index.php/1176

There is a vibrant Irish speaking community in South Derry - they have classes - http://www.ancarn.org/

There is some Irish in Derry City - http://www.culturlann-doire.ie/

There is also some Irish in Newry, Armagh City and Downpatrick (http://leathchathail.com/) but you would not go to learn Irish there.

http://www.glornamona.com/

Glór na Móna's website.

They have plenty of things on the go, lots of classes etc.

Perfect example of a group working on the ground.

quote:

I haven't been to the Gaeltacht areas in Kerry - compared with Muskerry, can these be considered to offer "immersion" just by living there? I am not sure an outside visitor can become immersed, however long he lives there. So as far as I know Aonghus, there are only "immersion weekends", which are not long enough to do anything.

Well, I know of a man in Corca Dhuibhne who is Lithuanian or Latvian, I think, and has lived there for years. He came to Ireland before the "Celtic Tiger", liked the place, learned Irish and settled in the locality. I remember chatting with him once years ago and then being amazed when someone told me afterwards that he was from Lithuania. I would never have guessed. I think moving to a Gaeltacht area wouldn't be feasible unless you have some sort of job that brings you into contact with local people. Otherwise, you'll rather cut off from the locals, unless you get involved in voluntary work. Of course, in CD you'll always be a "stróinséir" but I think that applies to all rural areas.

quote:

Of course, in CD you'll always be a "stróinséir"

... well at least for a couple of generations