I'm making some basic notes on Clare Irish with help from some books, etc. I'm interested in making notes and information of how Irish was spoken in Clare, I'll up to date from time to time.

I'd also appreciate it if anyone can share any information of what they know about the Clare dialect, or if appearntley native speakers still exist, what year the last speakers lived etc.

One of the reasons why I am interested in writing some notes on Clare Irish since my great grandparents were farmers and native Irish speakers from West Clare.

I'd appreciate any input, by the way the dialect I speak is Conamara Irish and I aim to speak like a Conamara native speaker.

Basic information:

Clare Irish was a mixture of Kerry and Conamara Irish, its just like how Mayo is a mixture of Donegal and Conamara today. The north was more Conamara type.

1 - ''mh'' and ''bh'' was prononced ''V'' in all cases just like Muskerry Irish.

2 - Clare Irish was both a synthetic and analytic dialect, it depended on the speaker if he/she preferred which form it also depended on where in Clare.

Common prepositions:

agam, in north Clare the shorten form ''am'' was used as well.
agat, ''at'' was used as well.
aige
aici, prononced like ''aice''
agaibh was prononced like ''aguv''or ''agub'' in some places, I'd guess this would have been north Clare since there is similar prononciation with ''bh'' prononced like a ''b'' in Conamara. But in Conamara ''agaibh'' is prononced ''agwee'.
acu = 3 different prononciations were used; aca (same in Kerry) ak-uv, and ''acab''. ''Acab'' is also Conamara Irish.

''Do'' = your, was prononced ''t'' before vowels just like everywhere else in Ireland apart from Donegal. It also says in the book that they use to say ''to'' before consonants even but I think ''do'' started to take over.

In South Clare, aspiration occured after ''insan'', but in North Clare eclipses occured.

South Clare = insan bhaile
North Clare = insan mbaile

They also said ''leaba'' for bed like in Conamara, where it is leabaidh in Donegal and Munster.

I'm not sure what they say in Mayo, would be interesting to find out.

The link below contains an article on Clare Irish:

http://www.archive.org/stream/toddlectureserie191royauoft/toddlectureserie191roy auoft_djvu.txt

Are you reading Nils Homer's book?

I think there were considerable differences between say Loop Head and the very north of Clare.

Have a look also at Seán Ua Súilleabháin's chapter on Gaeilge na Mumhan in Stair na Gaeilge and Brian Ó Cuív's Irish Dialects and Irish Speaking Districs where he alludes to similarities between Clare and Waterford Irish.

Check out also Leabhar Stiofáin Uí Ealaoire published by Comhairle Bhéaloideas Éireann. Review here:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/20522190

Wagner also examined speakers from Clare. See Volumes I and II of LASID.

Be careful of these points you make above!:

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1 - ''mh'' and ''bh'' was prononced ''V'' in all cases just like Muskerry Irish.

Both /w/ and /v/ occur in West Muskerry and Corca Dhuibhne for "mh" and "bh" in intial position!

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aca (same in Kerry)

Aca? No. It's pronounced "acu" in Kerry with strong stress on the second syllable and the first reduced to a schwa.

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They also said ''leaba'' for bed like in Conamara, where it is leabaidh in Donegal and Munster.

Both "leaba" and "leabaidh" are used in Corca Dhuibhne. Clare is in Munster!

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Both /w/ and /v/ occur in West Muskerry

Ah come on, Muskerry is known for mostly prononcing ''mh/bh'' as V most of the time.

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Aca? No. It's pronounced "acu" in Kerry with strong stress on the second syllable and the first reduced to a schwa.

Well, you would be the last person I'd argue with when it comes to Kerry Irish since you speak Kerry Irish...

But I am sure I remember learning somewhere that in Kerry that ''acu'' is prononced ''Aca'', but ''acu'' in Muskerry. It could be a subdialect thing in Corca Dhuibhne?

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Both "leaba" and "leabaidh" are used in Corca Dhuibhne.

Ok, but leabaidh is more common?

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Clare is in Munster!

So?

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Ah come on, Muskerry is known for mostly prononcing ''mh/bh'' as V most of the time.

"I'll come on", so. I've tried to help you out. If you don't want my help and advice. That's fine. You clearly know more than Brian Ó Cuív. Fair play to you.

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You clearly know more than Brian Ó Cuív. Fair play to you.

Yeah, I'll stick to Brian Ó Cuív books, you shall stick to your comics.

"Bed" is pronounced something like the english "Loby", but there is a change in the vowel sound after the L.( Is this called a dipthong??).Its hard to explain. Any recomendations on sites to post recordings so I can say the word??

I'll stand corrected with ''acu'' prononced as ''Acu'' in Kerry, but I don't know where I saw a phonetic of ''acu'' as ''aca'', somewhere.

An Teanga Bheo, Corca Dhuibhne, mar shompla.

You could argue that the CO is loosely based on Clare Irish, as a compromise between Munster and Connaught.

For example: conas atá tú? - that is not a current Gaeltacht form (= conas tánn tú?), but Holmer's book shows the Clare form was conas atá tú?, but the t was lenited and the whole thing said as:

/konəs ə'hɑ: hə/

I think forms like bhíomar, with broad r, were good for Clare, and I don't know about táimid style forms with a short vowel in the -id ending, but these may have been a Clare thing too.

Overall, I wish they had gone with one dialect and done it properly, even if it had been Clare.

You can get some information about Clare Irish from Riobeard Ó Catháin's New Testament 1858 - an update of Uilliam Domhaill's New Testament into 19th century Clare Irish. I think a PDF copy of that book may be on archive.org somewhere.

What about duaidh sé for d'ith sé, that was a Clare thing.

Before I went to Muskerry the first time I thought "acu" was pronounced acú, I hadn't clocked the fact that the u is short. The u is short like the u in the English word "put". It is not akoo. Or it even sounds like a stressed schwa: ə'kə

"Overall, I wish they had gone with one dialect and done it properly, even if it had been Clare. "

-- I totally agree.

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Or it even sounds like a stressed schwa: ə'kə

Yes, and the spelling of that is ''aca'', thats where I got it from!

I've seen Munster speakers in past that write acu as aca because thats the way its prononced in Muskerry.

Donegal: acu
Galway: acab
Kerry: acu
Muskerry: aca

I wonder how its prononced in Mayo?

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I've seen Munster speakers in past that write acu as aca because thats the way its prononced in Muskerry.

"aca" is in no way an accurate representation of the actual pronunciation in either Corca Dhuibhne or West Muskerry. "aca" is nothing more than a leftover of the classical spelling convensions used in the Early Modern Irish period and still in use by many authors down to the early twentieth century and before An Caighdeán Oifigiúil was devised in 1958. Both Brian Ó Cuív and Dinneen have it as do many Cork and Kerry authors from the same period. Ó Cuív uses many other classical spellings which it is blatantly obvious are not meant to accurately portray actual pronunciation in real time in the speech of native speakers from the region: "saothrughadh", "leanbaidhe", "modhamhail", "gréasaighe", "slighe", etc. etc. etc. which is precisely the reason Ó Cuív uses the phonetic script to show how they are actually pronounced. Those spellings reflect the Early Modern pronunciations when intervocalic fricatives were still articulated by the literary classes.

"aca" (or "acu" as we write it today) is pronounced /əˈku/ in West Muskerry and Corca Dhuibhne and throughout the rest of Cork, Kerry and Waterford not /ɑkə/ as the spelling "aca" would suggest. See sections 209 and 241 of The Irish of West Muskerry and Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne by Diarmuid Ó Sé.

Now instead of coming on here and addressing me in the condescending tone of your previous posts, you might actually take the time to read the texts I've already cited.

You're right, according to O Sé, people say "acu" or "aco" in Corca Dhuibhne.

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Yeah, I'll stick to Brian Ó Cuív books, you shall stick to your comics.

I'm also at a loss to explain why you take it upon yourself to message me while I was on Facebook the other evening looking for information on Clare Irish and then arrogantly dismiss me when I endeavour to supply you with same here.

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I think forms like bhíomar, with broad r, were good for Clare, and I don't know about táimid style forms with a short vowel in the -id ending, but these may have been a Clare thing too.

The preterite first person plural forms with a velarised r in An Caighdeán Oifigiúil may well have been taken from the classical spellings in use up to then. The classical paradigms of the main irrregular verbs are given in the back of Dinneen's dictionary and in Stair na Gaeilge. Palatalised r is found throughout Cork and Kerry. Ua Súilleabháin in Stair na Gaeilge says that both palatalised and velarised r occur (8.30) in this form in the Déise. As regards táimid style forms, -amuid was more common in north Clare, -imíd in the far south.

If I'm not mistaken Ailín you started to help me in a condecending way. There is no need to talk to me like an idiot. Just read the post again. All I said was ''Ah come on, Muskerry is known for mostly prononcing ''mh/bh'' as V most of the time.'' in a lighthearted way, I didn't mean anything by it you get that most of the time on forums, and then you start going on that I know more than Brian Ó Cuív etc??

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You can get some information about Clare Irish from Riobeard Ó Catháin's New Testament 1858 - an update of Uilliam Domhaill's New Testament into 19th century Clare Irish. I think a PDF copy of that book may be on archive.org somewhere.

Are you sure the text you mentioned is actually in Clare Irish as spoken during that period?

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What about duaidh sé for d'ith sé, that was a Clare thing.

Interesting, but duaidh sé was not confined to Clare. I remember reading it in at least one eighteenth century manuscript from Wexford.

Níl ann ach míthuiscint a Ailín, go raibh maith ad as an eolas a thugann tú anseo seasta. Gabh mo leithscéal.

Is éasca a tharlaíonn argóint ar an bhfóram seo, thug mé faoi deara ar seo cúpla bliain ó shoin freisin. Ní thuigim cén fáth ar chor ar bith.

Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat a chara.

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If I'm not mistaken Ailín you started to help me in a condecending way. There is no need to talk to me like an idiot.

When exactly did I speak to you "like an idiot"? You're the one who came on here and made erroneous suppositions. I then tried to correct these and got no thanks for doing so. If that is your attitude, I will refrain henceforth from offering you any assistance.

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Just read the post again. All I said was ''Ah come on, Muskerry is known for mostly prononcing ''mh/bh'' as V most of the time.'' in a lighthearted way, I didn't mean anything by it you get that most of the time on forums, and then you start going on that I know more than Brian Ó Cuív etc??

"Ah come on" suggests that I was somehow being disingenuous or in jest. I wasn't. You then say "Muskerry is known for mostly prononcing ''mh/bh'' as V most of the time" without explaining what "V" actually means. In fact on closer examination of what Ó CuíV says of the phoneme /v/ in West Muskerry, he states that at the beginning of a word or syllable or following initial /g/, the sound approaches the labio-velar /w/ of Southern English. Ó Sé mentions both the labio-dental or bilabial fricative as well as the half-vowel /w/ for Corca Dhuibhne (section 9). Which has more weight; your personal opining in "Muskerry is known for mostly prononcing ''mh/bh'' as V most of the time" or the statement of a respected Irish language scholar and linguist? "Known" by whom, exactly?

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Níl ann ach míthuiscint a Ailín, go raibh maith ad as an eolas a thugann tú anseo seasta. Gabh mo leithscéal.

Maith go leor, a chara. Caithimíst tharainn é mar scéal. Bhí an post deireanach seolta agam seara bhfeaca an ceann san is deireanaí agat. Dia leat.

Carmanach, what is "Early Modern" Irish? I understand Classical Modern Irish, which may be the same thing, was the last phase of Middle Irish, which began around 1200 - Seathrún Céitinn was still adhering to some of the Middle Irish stuff, at least in terms of the fact that he was not writing in any early 1600s dialect, but in an ossified form of Irish. But I think Classical Modern Irish refers to the distinctive features of the final form of Middle Irish, around 1400-1600. Correct my dates and understanding of the classifications if wrong.

So at what point were the fricatives lost? Rahilly implies around the 14th century, I believe. So Céitinn did not have those fricatives either, but they were ossified in spelling, just as the "gh" in "thought" is ossified in English. By the time of the Gaelic Revival, there were very few books in Irish, other than the Bible and the Book of Common Prayer (which the Roman Catholics disapproved of for unrelated reasons), so they looked back to Céitinn for an example of how to write good Irish. But the fact that many of these spellings were old even in the 17th century is clear from some 17th century writings by Theobald Stapleton, I believe, where he used -ú for -ughadh and things like that.

Another consideration is etymological spelling. This can be taken very far or not far at all. Dinneen wrote in the preface to his dictionary (I forget whether the 1907 or 1927 version) that -ughadh had to be kept, because the -gh appeared in pronunciation in the preterite and imperative, eg aimsigh, aimsiughadh. I think some people will appreciate that point, and others won't - especially as not all dialects pronounce the -gh as far as I know...

As for acu being /ə'ku/ or /ə'kə/, well, I don't think the notion of ə as a stressed vowel is accepted, as it is by definition the neutral vowel, but it can be pronounced /ə'kə/, at least if you listen to the recording of Mo Sgéal Féin done for me by a native speaker in Muskerry, you will hear that. I think it is just a question of how much lip rounding you put on it. You could say that /ə'kə/ is just an allophone of /ə'ku/. Carmanach is right that "aca" is not a good representation, as that would be pronounced /ə'kɑ/...

As for Muskerry pronouncing bh and mh as v most of the time - I m afraid that is untrue, at least not all the time anyway. They may pronounce them more often as v than other dialects, but medial bh and mh often/usually drop out, depending on what vowels and consonants are surrounding, but the issue is highly complex. There is a good section on this in IWM. I like the fact that cosmhail/cosúil is pronounced /kosvilʹ/, as the v remains after an s, but a footnote also says that /ko'su:lʹ/ can be heard, and my hunch is that most people would have /ko'su:lʹ/ today...

Carmanach, Riobeard Ó Catháin specifically says he did not translate the NT afresh, but merely updated Domhnaill's 1602 New Testament into Munster Irish, and he was from Carrigaholt in Co. Clare.

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Carmanach, what is "Early Modern" Irish? I understand Classical Modern Irish

Well, I think conventional terminology talks of the Early Modern Irish period, also known as the Classical Irish Period, as being between the 13th and mid 17th century or thereabouts, the spelling conventions of which were carried right down to the early twentieth century in fossilised forms.

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As for acu being /ə'ku/ or /ə'kə/, well, I don't think the notion of ə as a stressed vowel is accepted, as it is by definition the neutral vowel, but it can be pronounced /ə'kə/, at least if you listen to the recording of Mo Sgéal Féin done for me by a native speaker in Muskerry, you will hear that. I think it is just a question of how much lip rounding you put on it. You could say that /ə'kə/ is just an allophone of /ə'ku/. Carmanach is right that "aca" is not a good representation, as that would be pronounced /ə'kɑ/...

Well, I suppose the final vowel in acu may approach /ə/ in rapid speech though Ó Sé gives only /ə'ku/ or /ə'ko/. Either way, that final vowel is always stressed. When you say "I don't think the notion of ə as a stressed vowel is accepted", I presume you're talking about the first vowel not being stressed.

Lughaidh will correct me if I'm wrong but I think in Gaoth Dobhair acu is /uku:/ or /oku:/ with stress on the first syllable.

http://www.aughty.org/pdf/glortha.pdf

Ní bheadh sé i bhfad ar shiúil.

Suimiúil.

Cén bhail atá ort? - how are you i dtuaisceart an Chláir

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v-060409-29m38s-rilennaagusteipeanna.mp3

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v-290309-29m35s-rileannaagusteipeanna.mp3

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v-220309-29m24s-rileannaagusteipeanna2.mp 3

Tag : Caint an Chláir, Imleabhar 1, An Chéad Chló 1940.
An tAthair Seoirse Mac Clúin.

Creidim go bhfuil / mbeidh clár ar Clare FM ar an Ghaeilge sa Chontae.

Dúirt cara liom (teangeolaí ar an Ghaeilge) gur chuala sé neart Gaeilge i nDúlainn deich mbliain ó shin.

Léigh mé an tseachtain seo chuaigh thart go bhfuil cainteoirí dúchas ann go fóill i nDeisceart an Chontae.

Seans gurb as Inis Oírr iad nó as Gaeltacht na Gaillimhe, níl Gaeilge ar bith ann i nDúlainn níos mó.

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Léigh mé an tseachtain seo chuaigh thart go bhfuil cainteoirí dúchas ann go fóill i nDeisceart an Chontae.

Chuala mé faoi sin freisin, ach cén áit sa deisceart go baileach?

(Message edited by The_lilywhites on October 21, 2010)

(Message edited by The_lilywhites on October 21, 2010)

>>>When you say "I don't think the notion of ə as a stressed vowel is accepted", I presume you're talking about the first vowel not being stressed
------------------------------------------------------

No. I am talking about the second vowel. None of the excursus on Irish phonology accept /ə/ as a stressed vowel. So when it seems to be heard, it must be that the rounding on /u/ has slipped off slightly.

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Dúirt cara liom (teangeolaí ar an Ghaeilge) gur chuala sé neart Gaeilge i nDúlainn deich mbliain ó shin.

An ionann sin is a ráidht gurb as Dúlainn iad? Sin an cheist. Más as Conamara nó as Ciarraí nó as BÁC iad...

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None of the excursus on Irish phonology accept /ə/ as a stressed vowel.

Mmm nach bhfuil sé ann i nGaeilg na Rinne?

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Mmm nach bhfuil sé ann i nGaeilg na Rinne?

/(ə)ˈku/ a thugann R. B. Breatnach i Seana-Chaint na nDéise II ach deir sé i bhfonóta gur chualaigh sé /(ə)ˈkuː/ go minic aige cainteoir amháin.

Ba as Dúlainn iad, cé gur féidir go raibh baint acu le hInis Oirr.

"Chuala mé faoi sin freisin, ach cén áit sa deisceart go baileach?"

Carraig a' Chobhaltaigh.

Tá an Ghaeilge sin cloiste agam - an-difriúil ó Ghaeilge Thuaisceart an Chontae, an-chosúil le Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne.

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/(ə)ˈku/ a thugann R. B. Breatnach i Seana-Chaint na nDéise II ach deir sé i bhfonóta gur chualaigh sé /(ə)ˈkuː/ go minic aige cainteoir amháin.

Chan é an focal sin a bhi i gceist agam... sileam go rabh /ə/ ar an Rinn ins na focla "tu" agus "mé" agus rudai eile mar sin, so is féidir go rabh béim ar na siollai sin. Caithfidh go bhfuil an freagar in "The Irish of Ring" ach ta mé rofhalsa le ghabhail a chuartu sin :-)

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sileam go rabh /ə/ ar an Rinn ins na focla "tu" agus "mé"

/u/ agus /i/ nó /e/ fé seach i gCorca Dhuibhne nuair is cuspóir iad. Dhéanfadh schwa doibh i gcaint thapaidh, is dócha. Is fíor dhuit maidir le Rinn Ó gCuanach. Luann Seán Ua Súilleabháin sin in Stair na Gaeilge (lch 502). Deir sé, ámh, go bhfuil foirmeacha go bhfuil guta fada, leis, ann sa suíomh céanna.