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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (September-October) » Archive through October 18, 2010 » Claochlú « Previous Next »

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 871
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2010 - 04:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Do bhí leadrán orm inné gur ghlacas ceann desna abairtibh tosaigh is ansa liom agus chuireas Gaelainn uirthi. Cad iad na tuairimí atá agaibh?
quote:

Nuair a dhúisigh Gregor Samsa as taibhreamhaibh míshuaimhneacha maidin áirithe, fuair sé féin claochlaithe ar a leabaidh go míolra anchúinseach.


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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 673
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2010 - 04:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tús maith, leath na hoibre!

Ba chóir an scéal go léir a aistriú go Gaelainn.

Dála an scéil, creidim fhéinig gurb é siúd an scéal is foirfe dá scríobhadh riamh, nó geall leis.

Nó an mbeadh moladh eile agat a shárodh an ceann san?

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 872
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2010 - 11:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ní fhéadaim ach a rá leat go gach uair a léim aon ghiota den scéal san is éigean mé féin a chosc ar an scéal uile a léagh ó thús arís. Níl éinní atá foirfe ar an tsaol so, ach níl a shéanadh ar an éifeacht atá leis seo. Ní leogfadh an eagla dhom iarracht a dhéanamh ar aistriuchán iomlán. An mhórchuid d'uair a chaitheas ach ag cur Gaelainne ar "ungeheuren Ungeziefer"!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10361
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, October 01, 2010 - 03:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

An mhórchuid d'uair a chaitheas ach ag cur Gaelainne ar "ungeheuren Ungeziefer"!



Nach iontach mar ar fháisc sé áilleacht as alltacht!

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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 01, 2010 - 04:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Well it would be interesting to know what the best translation for Ungeziefer is. Translating it into English is not easy either. An interesting article on this is at http://www.nvcc.edu/home/vpoulakis/Translation/kafkatr1.htm - some English translations say "a vermin". But of course, "a vermin" is totally incorrect in English, as vermin is a collective noun. Insect, bug, don't fully grasp the horrible nature of vermin. I note that in English you can say "piece of vermin", but that is really an insult between people rather than a description of a creature. Maybe "a verminous creature" is appropriate in English?

I ask this, because if "míolra" means "vermin" it is probably a collective noun. I note that in Ó Dónall's dictionary, there is no plural of this word, adding to the impression it is collective, just as vermin is in English.

Míolra is not in Dinneen's dictionary, but I think it is some kind of variant of the plural of míol.

Dinneen's dictionary has cú cnámha or seadán for vermin (the former meaning louse and the latter parasite). O'Neill-Lane's English Irish dictionary says "míola beaga" in the plural or treadáin in the plural - obviously translating vermin as a collective noun. Treadáin seems to be the same word as treaghdán in Ó Dónall's dictionary, which means "nit", with treaghdánach listed as treaghdánach meaning "nitty, verminous".

Of course, míol beag would not be very good, as that link I gave above says the German means huge and disgusting piece of vermin, so "beag" would not encompass that. But míol mór means "whale".

Can anyone express a definite opinion as to whether míolra is collective? What about feithid anchúiseach?

But I love the word claochú, which I was not familiar with - it rolls around the mouth wonderfully! I hope you carry on with the book.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 877
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 04:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Yeah, I was concerned that míolra was solely collective, although there is precedent for pluralisation of derivatives in -ra (e.g. mian "ore" > mianraí "minerals").

Fríd would be a possibility except that the modern meaning seems to have narrowed to "true bug" (i.e. Hemiptera), which is too specific for Kakfa's purpose.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10394
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 04:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I think the evidence is that míolra is Plural.

http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=m%C3%ADolra

Céard faoi "míol uafásach"

Then there is arracht:

arracht [ainmfhocal firinscneach den tríú díochlaonadh]
créatúr uafásach ollmhór agus cuma bhagrach air, anchúinse.



claochlú is a compound, hiding the word "cló" form.
Not sure where the "clao" part comes from.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10395
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 04:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=0&searchtext=claochl%C3%BA&fin dlet=+&findcol=&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1

quote:

coímchloud
u and o, m. Vn. of con-imchloí. Very variable in form. claechládh claechlódh claechlúdh, IGT Verbs § 64 .



Perhaps I'm incorrect in seeing cló there.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 275
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 05:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

No I don't think "míolra" is plural but more like a collective noun. We find the suffix -ra in many other words: cúlra, sásra, innealra, sceanra, gléasra, líonra etc.

By the way, "míol" is best translated as meaning "animal" or "creature" and not "vermin". Hence, we have "míol mór" - whale, "míol buí" - hare and "míol leapa" - bedbug.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10397
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 05:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Perhaps your'e correct.
There are a one sample in the corpus:

Gurb é a ndíocas díocas le hainmhí bocht rua , más ' míolra ' féin é , a chéasadh agus a chur chun báis . -- Anois,

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 276
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 05:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Well, take a look at Ó Dónaill and Dinneen and see for yourself

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10398
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 05:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

No I don't think "míolra" is plural but more like a collective noun.



Can one apply a collective noun to one member of the collective?

An bhfuil samplaí ag an nDálach?



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