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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (September-October) » Archive through October 02, 2010 » Some queries « Previous Next »

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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 09:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

1. Cumasach - can this mean "portly, on the large side"?

Séadna chapter 23: duine uasal breagh groídhe cumasach dob’ eadh an fear d’osgail é: I am assuming groí means "hearty, spirited" and cumasach means "portly".

Norma Borthwick's translation was "the man who opened it was a fine, brave, portly gentleman". I am not sure why "brave" is in here, unless it is some kind of translation of groí. And shouldn't the translation start from the back of the adjectives? A portly, hearty, fine gentleman?

2. Buille beag - this can mean somewhat, as in: tá an tráthnóna buille beag glas ann féin, the evening is a bit chilly. [Although I tried to use "buille beag glas" in Músgraí, and the "native speakers" didn't understand it and told me it was wrong. ]

So what about: bhuail an ceann buille beag réidh ar an ndorus: is buille here used as "knock": he gave a quiet little knock on the door? Or does "buille beag" mean somewhat here? he knocked the door somewhat quietly?

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 947
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2010 - 06:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I would think "portly" is a mis-translation. Cumasach means capable, of good ability, able etc.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10260
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 03:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

is buille here used as "knock": he gave a quiet little knock on the door?



Yes.

With regards to the other, I should think that the translation is not word for word. They are all adjectives which suggest a solid, friendly person: I think "brave" is being used in that sense.
From dictionary.com

brave
1.
possessing or exhibiting courage or courageous endurance.
2.
making a fine appearance.
3.
Archaic . excellent; fine; admirable.



groí [aidiacht den tríú díochlaonadh]
breá, láidir, croíúil.

cumas [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
ábaltacht, neart (cumas a bheith ionat; bheith i gcumas rud a dhéanamh; níl sé ar mo chumas).

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 127
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 05:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

1) duine uasal breagh groidhe cumasach - a fine well-mannered hearty strapping man. Note that there should be no síneadh fada on the i in groidhe. The vowel is understood to be long anyway under the pre-standard spelling system, although orginally short and then lengthened due to the loss of the intervocalic frivative.

2) tá an tráthnóna buille beag glas ann féin - buille beag fuar, buille beag déanach, buille beag luath - a bit cold, late, early etc. A common construction in Corca Dhuibhne and Amhlaoibh Ó Luínse has at least one example: "Muarchuid acu déanta lena n-aghaig soir, b’fhéidir buille beag soir-ó-dheas; Many of them (were) made facing east, slightly in a south-easterly direction, (SAL:23)". Buille beag - an adverbial phrase placed before an adjective.

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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 11:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Carmanach, the spelling I gave of these sentences from Séadna was as given in Séadna, 1904 edition! PUL often wrote things like groídhe - he didn't fully conform to the "pre-standard spelling system".

Yes - that was a great example from Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh. I would like an electronic version of SAL.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 170
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 10:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Be that as it may, I think most writers in the pre-Caighdeán Oifigiúil era would not put a síneadh fada on the i in words such as groidhe, croidhe, luighe, suidhe, cómhnaidhe, groigh, etc though you well may see a síneadh fada in some of the manuscripts. As for the pre-standard spelling system, I mean the broad set of spelling conventions handed down since the Classical Irish period and used in Dinneen's dictionary among other texts.



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