Dear Ailín and others:

I want to take advantage of the joining of Ailín, a very qualified person, to ask some questions that have long bugged me: how to say “who” and “what” in all persons. Of course I am focusing on Cork Irish, but any interesting answers will be most welcome!

I saw in Séadna chapter 20, this sentence: “D'airigheas-sa duine 'ghá rádh gurab iad rudaí na síobhraí, 'ná aingil an uabhair agus na deamhain aeir”. OK, it means “I heard someone saying that the elves are the fallen angels and the demons in the air” or something like that. I don’t know what air-demons are, so I can’t get a precise wording.

“is iad rudaí” is the fascinating bit. I am assuming the following:

What am I? etc (imagine a child’s cartoon, with a picture of a cat, and a balloon saying “what am I? I am a cat”; you don’t often ask “what am I?” but it must be possible to say it).

What am I? = cad mise? OR cad é rud mise?
What are you? = cad thusa? OR cad é rud thusa?
What is he? = cad é siúd? OR cad é rud é siúd?
What are we? = cad sinne? OR cad iad rudaí sinne?
What are you plural? = cad sibhse? OR cad iad rudaí sibhse?
What are they? = cad iad súd? OR cad iad rudaí iad súd?

The reason I ask this is that I asked detailed questions on this on my last trip to Ireland, and was told by a very educated person that the putting “iad rudaí” into the questions would be wrong, but after that I came across the sentence in Séadna, and now I am thinking that “cad iad rudaí sinne?” would be right. Think of a picture of two birds. “What are we? We are robins!” “Cad iad rudaí sinne? Is iad rudaí sinne ná spideoga!” Right? Any thoughts?

What is this? “Cad é seo?” or “cad é rud é seo?” But can you say “cad so?”

Who am I? These are easier. There are examples in Cork literature attesting the fact that “cé hé mise?” has a “hé” in the middle:

Who am I? Cé hé mise?
Who are you? Cé hé thusa?
Who is he? Cé hé siúd?
Who are we? Cé hiad sinne?
Who are you plural? Cé hiad sibhse?
Who are they? Cé hiad súd?

Now: Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne specifically discusses this on page 371, and accepts “cé hiad sibhse?” as correct but adds that it is not normal to put the “hiad” in with “sinne”, preferring “cé sinne?” to “cé hiad sinne?”, but I am wondering if it is just because real examples are lacking, and there is less of a native-speaker sense when it comes to an odd sentence?

Any thoughts on all of this?

Bump.

quote:

The reason I ask this is that I asked detailed questions on this on my last trip to Ireland, and was told by a very educated person that the putting “iad rudaí” into the questions would be wrong, but after that I came across the sentence in Séadna, and now I am thinking that “cad iad rudaí sinne?” would be right. Think of a picture of two birds. “What are we? We are robins!” “Cad iad rudaí sinne? Is iad rudaí sinne ná spideoga!” Right? Any thoughts?

These feel wrong. I'd expect at least an article

Cad iad na rudaí sinne?

“D'airigheas-sa duine 'ghá rádh gurab iad rudaí na síobhraí, 'ná aingil an uabhair agus na deamhain aeir”.

- Yes, the form "gurab iad rudaí" is most interesting.

The first thing that occur to me to say would probably "Cad é atá ionainne?", "Cad iad na rudaí iad sinne?" or "Cé na rudaí sinne?". Finding concrete examples from the literature might be hard though I reckon our best bet is Corpas na Gaeilge. I'll have a look tonight if I get a chance. The first version above may be more authentic "Cad é atá ionainne?", but I don't know for sure.

I wonder also if the language would sanction "Cad is sinne ann?". You can certainly use it with an abstract noun anyway: "Cad is grá ann?"

I'm also thinking that one of those old translations of philosophy texts An Gúm did way back in the thirties might have the expression "What are we?".

Cad so? - that's sounds acceptible to me at least.

As for the examples quoted from Ó Sé, they all sound pretty normal. You can use the é, being the fo-ainmní or "subsidiary subject" with mise, tusa, etc. All of which seems to be the norm for native speakers. The Christian Brothers (16.44) give examples with the fo-ainmní and without it.

Aonghus,
What do mean by mean by "bump"?

He's just giving the post a bump back up to the top of the queue.

Is there a dictionary somewhere of all this Daltaí-speak?

Ní Daltaí speak é sin, tá sé fairsing ar líne. Is amhlaidh nach bhfeictear teachtaireachtaí ó dhaoine, nach bhfuil cláraithe leis an gclár, i gcónaí sna torthaí cuardaigh.

Níor airíos riamh go dtí an lá inniu é, caithfidh mé a rá.

Iomlán an scéil: http://www.ehow.com/how_4825162_should-bump-forum-thread.html

In Ó Dónaill under 'rud' he gives a meaning of rud as 'of living creatures':
na rudaí beaga: the little ones
an rud óg: the young thing
an rud (beag) bocht: the poor (little) thing

And looking up síofra (síobhra) he gives: 1. elf, sprite and 2. elf-child, changeling 3. weaklng

So given elves are small young creatures rudaí na síobhraí to me seems like 'the beings of the elfin community'/'the elfin ones' type meaning

Sorry Sinéad but I think David has this pretty well explained on his blog see here: http://www.corkirish.com/wordpress/who-and-what
"rudaí" being part of the predicate in a copular expression.

Very philosophical post David :) Nicely done, I'm going to have to read it a few times to get my head around it.

Another possible form popped in my head on the way home from work today: "Cad is ea me?"

An peil Ciarraíoch. Caid is ea é.

Bhíos ar mo chaid = I was as drunk as a skunk

Carmanach and others,

you are right, PUL used that construction, cad is XXX ann?, in the translation he did of the Four Gospels. See John 18:38, where the translation of "what is truth?", in the conversation between Pontius Pilate and Jesus, is given as "cad is fírinne ann?"

I would like to find more examples of things like "gurab iad rudaí na síofraí", in PUL's works, but I am now thinking that the choice of "é (an) rud" and "iad rudaí" in such sentences depends on how many things are being equated to the thing being discovered.

For example, in Book 1 Chapter 13 of Aithris ar Chríost, PUL's translation of Thomas à Kempis' Imitatio Christi, we find: "taisbeánann an cath cad é an saghas sinn": temptation shows us what we are. Despite the fact that "sinn" is plural, the "what" is singular "cad é an saghas".

Whereas in "gurab iad rudaí na síofraí", PUL is specifically saying the elves are fallen angels AND demons of the air - he equates them with two categories of things.

What I mean (and I am not sure, I am thinking aloud) is that "the elves are fallen angels" would just be "gurb é (an) rud na síofraí na aingil an uabhair". But the addition of another thing (deamhain an aeir) that they could be requires the plural of rud.

This means that if I factor this point of you into my original post, "what are we?" would be "cad é rud sinne?", assuming only one thing is the reply: is é rud sinne ná spideoga.

So the plural would only be required where more than one category is intended in the answer. If you imagine a picture of cats and dogs: cad iad rudaí sinne? This question requires at least two categories in the answer: is iad rudaí sinne ná cait agus madraí.

As for "cad é rud" versus "cad é an rud" - I think this is similar to the examples given on pages 194 and 195 of Gnás na Gaedhilge by Cormac Ó Cadhlaigh, where it is explained that "leigtear an t-alt ar lár...roimh an ainm is faisnéis nó is adhbhar cainte i raidhtibh 'is', nuair nach beag de mhíniú ar an ainm an fochlásal aidiachta a ghabhann leis" - which I take as meaning that the article can be dropped out in copular usage when the qualifying clause suffices to identify the noun. Examples include "b'i céad bean í a tháinig chun an doruis" - where there is no need to say "THE" first woman - and "is é biadh is deise d'ár bhlaiseas riamh é" and "siné aithne a bhí acu air" etc. These "cad é rud" style sentences are slightly different, but you can still see how the article often drops out.

sineadw, it is quite creative to assume "rudaí na siobhraí" means "the beings of the elfin community", but that is not the meaning. There are lots of examples of rud or saghas being used in these copula of classification sentences. I think my quote from Aithris ar Chríost in another message in this thread in the message queue for approval by the moderator makes this clear. What is or was unclear is why rud was plural in the sentence on the siobhraí, but I think that is clear to me now too. I'd be interested Sineadw to see if you accepted my view as written in the other message - maybe we can discuss further when my message shows up.

Yep, accepted, but I'm not really the best to help you with this anyway, I wouldn't have taken that meaning from it unless it was pointed out to me! But anyway from what you've said I'm seeing it now as meaning 'the stuff of' - as in what they are.