I have gradually become more disappointed with this 1961 work, although it remains the only proper treatment of Cork Irish. Ailín Ó Súilleabháin's post re: nic vs. ní in surnames raised another issue about the Irish in this book. So far I have identified the following problems:

1) Treatment of lenition and eclipsis, especially with the verb gheibhim. He suggests "ní bhfaighim", but I know this should be "ní fhaighim" in Cork Irish.
2) Following the recent comments by Ailín on another thread: he is wrong to say nic is not used in Cork Irish, and is wrong to say mhic lenites surnames.
3) He claims in the introduction to his book that "cé acu" occurs as "cé acu acu" in Cork Irish, but I have a feeling he is getting confused. Cioca (=cé acu) means "which", but cioca'cu means "which of them?", so that cioca and cioca'cu are not entirely equivalent. At least that is my assumption, and now I have noted he makes slip-ups, I won't regard his book as a cast-iron source.

Any more comments on TYI?

What is the final verdict on the meaning of the word "clann"? On page 28 it says:

clann - children (coll.), family

Is "family" the primary meaning of the word clann and is "children" merely a colloquial meaning? This was discussed on here a few years ago and if I remember correctly, most people were of the opinion that the word clann does NOT mean family.

At school we always used the word "clann" for "family",and the odd time we would use "muintir" and "teaghlach" but "clann" was always the most common term.

For "children",we always used either "leanaí" or "páistí".

Clann is correctly used for one's children (but it is widely used in the wider sense of family)


Mo chlann - my sons and daughters

That "coll" may mean collective rather than colloquial

http://www.potafocal.com/Search.aspx?Text=clann

clann [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
páistí aon lánúine; cine, sliocht (Clann Dónaill, Clanna Gael).

To David Webb above:

"1) Treatment of lenition and eclipsis, especially with the verb gheibhim. He suggests "ní bhfaighim", but I know this should be "ní fhaighim" in Cork Irish."

- Diarmuid Ó Sé says the following of the negative particle ní before verbs based on /fai/: ní + bh + f "roimh na foirmeacha úd den bhriathar atá bunaithe ar /fai/ faigh- féin, go háirithe san fháistineach agus sa mhodh coinníollach, m.sh. ní bhfaighidís aon chead é a dhéanamh, agus san aimsir chaite, m.sh. ní bhfuaireadar an chaoi. Is minice ní dh'fhaigheann ná ní bhfaigheann san aimsir láithreach áfach". So it would appear that ní bhfaigheann appears in Corca Dhuibhne at least though not as common as ní dh'fhaigheann. (Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne: section 597).

"2) Following the recent comments by Ailín on another thread: he is wrong to say nic is not used in Cork Irish, and is wrong to say mhic lenites surnames."

- When did I say that nic is not used in Cork Irish? I said no such thing. Mhic does indeed lenite the initial lenitable consonant of a surname, except for those beginning with c or g.

"3) He claims in the introduction to his book that "cé acu" occurs as "cé acu acu" in Cork Irish, but I have a feeling he is getting confused. Cioca (=cé acu) means "which", but cioca'cu means "which of them?", so that cioca and cioca'cu are not entirely equivalent. At least that is my assumption, and now I have noted he makes slip-ups, I won't regard his book as a cast-iron source. "

- cé acu acu /k´okə ku/ is widely attested in Munster. Ó Sé says the following: "Deirtear cé acu acu nuair nach luaitear na rudaí a bhfuil rogha eatarthu cé acu acu atá bhuait?, cé acu acu é sin?, cé acu acu ab é féin?" (section 716)"

I am puzzled as to why you would think that a book aimed at learners of Irish should be "the only proper treatment of Cork Irish"? Ó Cuív's The Irish of West Muskerry gives us a phonological analysis of a speaker of the dialect. While there seems to be no single linguistic text dealing with the morphology and syntax of West Muskerry Irish apart from Seán Ua Súilleabháin's article in Stair na Gaeilge which mentions it in passing there are nevertheless many articles in Éigse, Ériu etc. dealing with same.

"Clann" does mean "family" but only in the sense of one's children "to get married and raise a family". The mother and father, aunt, uncle etc. are not included in "clann". A good native speaker would say "mo mhuintir" which can also mean "my parents" depending on the context. "Líon tí" is another word commonly used in the sense of "household", and even has the plural "líntíocha" in Corcna Dhuibhne. Ó Duinnín makes no mention of "clann" meaning the "nuclear family" - mammy, daddy and three point four children, and he was from Rathmore not a million miles from the Cork border. The use of "clann" to mean the extended family would appear to be the invention of school teachers.

YES!!!
Happy to see that I'm not the only one who hammers that...

Indeed, the Scots seem to use "clann" in much the same way as we use "páistí" or "leanaí": prògraman clainne; children's programmes, leabhraichean airson clainne (or cloinne??); books for children, etc. The Welsh cognate "plant", is used in a similar way, "Planed Plant" or "Planet Kids" being a popular children's television show on S4C. I think both words originate in the Latin "planta". Other words for "infant" in Irish are "bunóc" and "naíonán".

Of course "clann" in the sense of the common descendants of a particular ancestor, means literally, the descendants or offspring of a certain individual: Clann Dónaill, Clann Suibhne, etc.

quote:

- When did I say that nic is not used in Cork Irish? I said no such thing. Mhic does indeed lenite the initial lenitable consonant of a surname, except for those beginning with c or g.

er … I think David was referring to one of the people who wrote Teach Yourself Irish.

Ah yes, of course, apologies to David.

Carmanach,

1. Thanks for the comments on eclipsis of faighim in Kerry. I am focusing exclusively on Cork Irish, especially on that of Peadar Ua Laoghaire - and he had "ní fhagann". See his translation of Matthew 12:43: "Agus nuair a théigheann an spioraid neamhghlan amach as an nduine, siúbhlann sé tré áiteana feóchta ag lorg suaimhnis, agus ní fhaghann sé é". For this reason, "ní bhfaigheann" is for me a Kerryism.

2. I didn't say you were wrong on "nic". When I said "he was wrong", I was referring to Myles Dillon, who said "nic" is not used in Cork Irish. Also, I had not appreciated the point that Mhic does lenite surnames that do not start with C or G. Thank you for clearing that up. It can be difficult to pin down these fiddly points, and Myles Dillon muddies the water by giving an illustration with a surname not starting with C or G.

3. I may be wrong on cioca'cu - I am "glued" to the works of Peadar Ua Laoghaire, and I have found no "cioca'cu" there - but I am thinking that PUL may have had a kind of "cleaned up Cork Irish", ie, what he regarded as a educated form of it? For example, he uses léigim and not leogaim, tarraingim and not tairgim etc, and so it is an open question whether PUL actually pronounced the things like that, or whether he regarded cioca'cu, leogaim and tarraingim as mistaken??

Brian Ó Cuív's The Irish of West Muskerry is a book on phonology that I used every day, but it is not a grammar book. So I use a combination of The Irish of West Muskerry, Teach Yourself Irish by Myles Dillon and also the transcription into leitriú shimplí by Shán Ó Cuív. But the spelling in Mo Sgéal Féin and Séadna often reveals the forms that PUL used, and some conclusions can be drawn therefrom. I noted truaghmhéileach in Séadna last night, and not truaghmhéalach, so I drew the conclusion the l is slender in Cork Irish. Things like that.

Teach Yourself Irish by Myles Dillon does indeed deal with the morphology and syntax of West Muskerry Irish! And as you said, there are many articles in Éigse and Ériu on Cork Irish - I have found a number by Osborn Bergin.

The English word 'family' is often used in Ireland when referring to the children of a couple.

"So and So has 5 in family" i.e. 5 children.