When using a masculine word in an sentence with the article, is it always prefixed by the "t".?

The example I am thinking of is as follows

Cén t-am an mbeidh an t-Aifreann ar súil amarach?

Would I use the "t" because it is "the Mass" without exception ( unlike ar Aifreann...at Mass or to Mass) or would I be able to say an Aifreann ?

The second question comes from a couple of examples I saw which confuse me.

Fágaigi na cinn seo ar aghaidh na scoile amuigh.
Leave these outside in front of the school

Bhí an pobal cruinnithe ar aghaidh an tséipéil amach.
The congregation was gathered out in front of the door.

Why amuigh in the first example and amach in the second?

Would it also be possible to place the amuigh/amach after "cinn seo" and and "cruinnithe" or is that just wrong.

Any response would be much appreciated

quote:

When using a masculine word in an sentence with the article, is it always prefixed by the "t"?

The letter t is prefixed to a noun that is:
1) masculine singular;
2) follows the article an;
3) in the nominative/accusative case (or common case); and
4) begins with a vowel.

The letter t here is actually a remnant of the article, but over time it has become associated with the following word. The old spelling was int/ind.

You want to use an tAifreann whenever you're talking about "the Mass". You can leave the article out in many cases, but I tend to see the article used more often than not.

quote:

Cén t-am an mbeidh an tAifreann ar súil amarach?

Some minor adjustments: Cén t-am a mbeidh an t-Aifreann ar siúl amárach?

quote:

Why amuigh in the first example and amach in the second?

I think it is just the simple different in meaning of 1) outside, and 2) out (but not necessarily outside). I usually understand movement from amach also, but not necessarily amuigh.

(Message edited by seánw on August 23, 2010)

As Seán says, the meaning differs

Fágaigi na cinn seo ar aghaidh na scoile amuigh.
Leave these outside, in front of the school

No direct link between "ar aghaidh" and "amuigh"

Bhí an pobal cruinnithe ar aghaidh an tséipéil amach.
The congregation was gathered out in front of the door.

"ar aghaidh X amach" is a unit meaning "Directly opposite/facing"

The congregation was gathered facing the Church

Thank you very much for your responses, they have been very helpful.

Cén t-am a bheidh an t-Aifreann ar siúl amárach?

1. a bheidh, not an mbeidh: it is not a direct question, but a relative clause (what time is it that...).

2. An t-Aifreann - yes, because Aifreann is masculine and in the nominative. If it were feminine, or genitive or dative, there would be no t. Ar Aifreann: this is dative.

3. siúl, not súil, and amárach, not amarach.

Fágaigí (or fágaidh) na cinn seo ar aghaidh na scoile amuigh.

To start with, amach indicates motion towards outside (you can't say "towards outside" in English, but you get my drift), and amuigh is static location outside. However, I think there is a further problem in that "ar aghaidh...amach" is a set phrase, meaning "in front, directly in front". I don't think "ar aghaidh amuigh" is a set phrase as such.

I would interpret "ar aghaidh na scoile amuigh" as meaning "ar aghaidh na scoile" (in front of the school, facing the school, opposite the school)+amuigh (outside, statically).

I would interpret "ar aghaidh na scoile amach" as a set phrase "right in front of the school" [here amach does not mean motion towards the outside, but is just an intensifier like "right" in "right in front"].

David

Thank you very much for your response

1. So if I was asking a question such as "will the Mass be happening here" then I would use an mbeidh?

I take it that Cén t-am... acts the same as conas in this context (in that it is a relative clause)?

3. very sloppy typing on my part and I should have caught them when I did the preview, thank you and Seanw for catching them. I also note I stated tséipéil as door. I plead a rather gruelling day at the office as an explanation for these obvious mistakes.

The confirmation that "ar aghaidh na scoile amach" is a set phrase along with the idea of "amach" being an intensifier makes total sense and has really helped.

Once again thank you all.

In the modern spelling, you'd write "an tAifreann" (without the hyphen) if you use the capital letter A, "an t-aifreann" (with hyphen) if you don't.
With a capital letter, the hyphen isn't needed because you seen with the capital A, that the word begins with A and that the t is a part of the article. With the small letter, you need the hyphen because if you write "an taifreann" you'd believe that the genuine word is "taifreann".

'Cén t-am a mbeidh .....'

"A mbeidh" is fine here. The above is a relative clause but you can use either the indirect or the direct relative forms in time clauses.

'So cén t-am a bheidh' or 'cén t-am a mbeidh' are both grand.

quote:

you can use either the indirect or the direct relative forms in time clauses.

That's something worth knowing. Are you sure? I did not know that before but I'm pleased to learn it. (Where did you find it, Sineadw?)

Does that mean we could say

Cén uair a chuaigh sé abhaile?

and

Cén uair a ndeachaigh sé abhaile?

Knowing when to say a chuaigh and a ndeachaigh is one of the bugbears of the "c-word" questions.

quote:

The above is a relative clause but you can use either the indirect or the direct relative forms in time clauses.

Cinnte, ach ní bhaineann tú feidhm as le huair.

I saw it in Ó Siadhail and it's what the voices in my head do be telling me (imaginary conamara voices) but I'm sorry I really should have checked if this is the case in all the dialects.

This is the relevant text under 'Indirect Relative Clauses' on pg. 82 of 'Learning Irish' by Ó Siadhail.


start/

(iii) if the clause refers to:

Time:

Sin é an t-am a raibh Cáit anseo

Similarly: an lá 'the day', an tseachtain 'the week' an uair* 'the occasion', etc.


*an uair 'the occasion, the time' may take either a direct or indirect clause: an uair a bhí tú anseo or an uair a raibh tú anseo 'the time you were here'

/end



The asterix is for the footnote he has at the end of that page

The limitation I mention I am only referring to uair. Perhaps Conamara has an exception to this, but it is not very common then.

Lars has:

The antecedent must be a general term of time / place / reason / and way. A direct relative clause is equally possible here.
e.g.: áit = place, slí = way, caoi = manner, dóigh, fáth = reason, am =time, lá = day, oíche = night, etc. (uair however is not usual)
The antecedent can also occur in questions, e.g.: cén chaoi, cén fáth (Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú? = How are you?)

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/satz4.htm

"Cá huair" and "cén uair" are given in Ó Dónaill as interrogatives in addition to "Cathain". I have the impression that all three take the direct relative:

Cá huair a chonaic tú é? (not a bhfaca)
Cathain a rinne tú é? (not a ndearna)
Cén uair a gheobhaidh tú é?? (not a bhfaighidh)

Am I right or wrong -- at least according to An Caighdeán Oifigiúil? [I assume it is not a crime to ask what An Caighdeán recommends.]

The grammar books (Cruinnscríobh/Leabhar Gramadaí Gaeilge) which teach the caighdeán in the main both say it's the direct relative with uair. So if you are adhering to the caighdeán then direct it is.

So I suppose we just need to find out how it goes in Munster and Ulster! Lughaidh and David, are ye around?

Go raibh maith agat, a Shinéadw.

What about the words for "when?" and "what time?"

I have only heard "cathain" in Coolea (followed by a direct relative clause) for "when?"

I have only heard "cad é an t-am é?" for "what time is it?"

I am not sure that cén or cé na exists at all in traditional Cork Irish. I can't find any examples in Peadar Ua Laoghaire's works.

Come to think of it "cén saghas duine é" is found as "cad é an saghas duine é" in PUL's works.

Another thing, is words for "where?" Nearly all the examples I have are of cá or cár, and the Cork form "canad" is actually extremely hard to find in Cork literature, and I have only four examples. I can find it normally as a one word response rather than introducing a whole clause, eg "canad, a Thighearna?" "Where, Lord?" in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 17:37). I also found "Canad? arsa mise" in Mo Sgéal Féin, and "Canad, a Nóra?" in Séadna. For a whole clause, cá or cár would be better, but I found this, the fourth example, of canad, and the only one with a full clause to follow in Luke 22:9, as translated by PUL:

Luke 22:9: Canad is toil leat go n-ollamhóchaimís é?

This is the passage where in the King James Version it says: "And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?"

I am thinking canad is easier to use before the copula, otherwise cá+the copula becomes cár (cár toil leat?), which looks awkward.

Anyway, they are the only four examples of canad I can find.

Sineadw,

I am the source of the confusion, not you, but I think there may be dialectal differences. Mo Sgéal Féin by PUL had this:

Ar dhaoine a bhíodh eirighthe suas féin ní bhíodh bróg ná stoca ach amháin Dé Domhnaigh, nuair a bhídís ag dul go dtí an t-Aifrean, nó an lá a bheidís ag dul i n-áit éigin as
baile.

you can see "an lá a bheidís" does not fit Ó Siadhail's rule.

There is also this:

Ní fheaca riamh ach cíos d'á árdughadh gach aon uair a thuiteadh léas, nó gach aon uair a dheineadh an tineóntaidhe aon fheabhas do chur ar an bhfeirm le n-a shaothar féin.

PJtoronto:
there is no masculaine/feminine/neutral in the irish language really. The reason you are putting the t in front of the word 'aifreann' is because to pronounce an followed by a vowel would be difficult, so we use the t before the vowel in this case

Leave these outside... would be fág iad seo amach os comhair na scoile.

the use of 'ar aghaidh' would be when you are referring to position as in "I am in front of you in the queue", or 'lean ar aghaidh', meaning "carry on"

Fagaigí means you plural leave, fág means you (single) leave

the congregation were gathered outside the door of the church:
Bhí an pobail cruinníthe os comhair doras na seipeile

no neuter in modern Irish, but it has masculine and feminine.
an tAifreann is masculine and has "t" when it's the SUBJECT.

the following are all feminine (I hope!) and don't have a "t" AS SUBJECT of sentence.
an aill, an aois, an adharc, an abairt

eadaoin

Mar sampla nua:
Chuir sé uaidh Peadar agus Eoin: “Imígí,” ar seisean, “agus ullmhaígí dúinn an cháisc go n-ithimid í.”Dúirt siad leis: “Cárbh áil leat go n-ullmhóimis í?”
(Lúc 22:8-9, (Bíobla Má Nuad)

Is ionann "cén" agus "cad é an" ó cheart, sílim.
cé [mír cheisteach]
cad é an duine nó an rud (cé hé sin? cén chaoi a bhfuil tú?).

cén
cé2 + an.

@toomey: this is what the Christian Brothers Grammar has to say on the topic of gender:
6.6 Inscne: An t-ainmfhocal, an t-alt, an forainm pearsanta, an forainm réamhfhoclach
agus an aidiacht, sin iad na ranna cainte a ngabhann inscne leo. Ní hionann inscne agus
gnéas. Le nithe beo (daoine, ainmhithe, plandaí) a bhaineann gnéas, ach is focail a bhíonn i
gceist nuair a thráchtar ar inscne. Tá dhá inscne sa Ghaeilge, baininscne agus firinscne. De
ghnáth freagraíonn focal firinscneach do rud fireann, agus focal baininscneach do rud
baineann, ach ní i gcónaí é. Focal firinscneach is ea cailín agus focal baininscneach stail;
agus tá na mílte focal firinscneach agus baininscneach ann mar ainmneacha ar rudaí gan
ghnéas mar cloch, cosán, sonas, eagla.

Another data point: a 1937 edition of Lúcás translated by Uillima Ó Domhnaill in 1602:

Cia an áit i n-ar toil leat go n-ullṁóċaimís é?

quote:

The reason you are putting the t in front of the word 'aifreann' is because to pronounce an followed by a vowel would be difficult, so we use the t before the vowel in this case

Not necessarily so, since we use the simple article an in the feminine case. Example: an aimsir. The t is just a remnant of a previous form of the article. Probably the best argument for why it was retained was to differentiate the masculine and the feminine.

quote:

an tAifreann is masculine and has "t" when it's the SUBJECT.

Subject and object. This is usually called the common case, or the nominative/accusative case.

Subject: Tá an tAthair Naofa ag teacht chun na Breataine.
Object: Éistim an tAifreann go minic.

Subject and Object - of course GRMA

eadaoin

This from a grammatical amadán but 'an aimsir' is easier to say than 'an aifreann' at least i mo thuairim.And native speakers haven't a clue what gender nouns are meant to possess.

A Mhacdara, you are right about the "easier to say" idea and the knowledge of some -- some -- native speakers.

The ~~ir at the end of aimsir is a signal that the t is not needed: an aimsir.
The broad ending of the other word ~~eann indicates that a t- is required: an t-aifreann

Native speakers may not have the English terminology for the language but they have heard the words used in context and know instinctively when to make the changes. On the other hand I watch TG4 every evening and I see native speakers with good education who would have had to emigrate in years gone by. I think they know more about the grammar of Irish than "amadáin" like me or ...

quote:

This from a grammatical amadán but 'an aimsir' is easier to say than 'an aifreann' at least i mo thuairim.

Well, explain me why "an aimsir" would be easier to pronounce than "an aifreann". It's "an" followed by an "a" in both cases. So I don't see "an a-" would be easy in one and not in the other...

quote:

The ~~ir at the end of aimsir is a signal that the t is not needed: an aimsir.

well, then what is your opinion about "an t-aistritheoir", "an t-úinéir"... ;-)

quote:

The broad ending of the other word ~~eann indicates that a t- is required: an t-aifreann

if you think that -eann indicates the noun is masculine, then what about "an bhoireann", "an bheann"... ? ;-)

sorry guys, I really should have said that I'm just giving you my perspective as a native Irish speaker (Leinster born and bred, but taught by munster and connacht teachers also, having spent numerous summers in gaeltacht areas in both provinces). I am probably speaking a variation of the provinces and it's like a big melting pot. However, I think some of you are referring to some very old irish text books and some of your grammar rules are no longer used (or as strictly adhered to) in normal dialect!! Just thought I was being helpful... didn't mean to start a deep intellectual furoe!!!

In terms of gender, obviously people and animals are either male or female, I didn't word myself very well there.... it was the middle of the night here....but for 'things' I was taught to deal with all nouns depending on how the word ended, the rule was: "caol le caol, leathan le leathan", which means broad with broad, slender with slender, this refers to the last consonant of the word. This way meant I didn't really associate a noun with being masc. or fem. and just focused on the ending. I suppose it's hard for me to explain the grammar rules in an academic way because I learned to speak and write Irish by using the language and learning the exceptions as I went along, so sometimes I don't actually know the reason why I say something that particular way in Irish!!



slán agus beannacht ó Éirinn!!

Thank you Aonghus:

PUL: Canad is toil leat go n-ollamhóchaimís é? - this uses the present copula

Dómhnall's 1602 NT: Cia an áit i n-ar toil leat go n-ullṁóċaimís é? - present copula

Maynooth Bible: Cárbh áil leat go n-ullmhóimis í? - conditional copula

Riobeárd Ó Catháin's 1858 NT: Cé an áit ann ar toil leat sinn dá ullmhúghadh? - present copula

Riobeárd Ó Catháin's NT was not a new translation, but rather an update of the 1602 Dómhnall NT into 19th century Clare Irish.

I understand there are some unnatural features of the Irish of PUL's translation, and presumably some of the others, in order to translate the Douai Bible more literally (using the method of "dynamic equivalence" between words). For example, he has "san lá san" instead of "an lá san", in order not to leave an original Greek word untranslated. He used a Greek version as well as the Douai, or so he said in one of his letters.

It is possible the Maynooth version is in natural Irish, and the other three are jumping through hoops to try to keep the copula in the present in order to match the Greek. Does anyone have any knowledge of that passage of the Greek NT?

Of course the Maynooth phrase could have been put in the present by saying "cárb áil leat", but I think this -rb business is quite rare - I can't find any examples of these -rb things (cárb, inarb, fénarb, lenarb, trínarb etc) in Cork literature. It would have to be a very specific sentence in order to get the -rb in.

"an t-aifreann"... to explain much more eloquenty than I:

t-prefix (an réamhlitir t)
spelling:
preceding s: ts capitalised: tS
preceding a vowel: t-a, t-e, etc. capitalised: tA, tE, etc. e.g. an tÉireannach = the Irishman

pronunciation:
The s after t-prefix is not spoken: an tsráid [tra:d']

use:
1.preceding nouns with a vowel after the article an
◦in the nominative/accusative with masculine nouns, e.g.: an t-úll = the apple
(not in the genitive and dative, e.g.: craiceann an úll = the skin of the apple, ar an úll = on the apple)
2.preceding nouns with s- after the article an (instead of lenition of the s; occurs only if it's followed by a vowel or l, n, r)
◦in the nominative/accusative by feminine nouns: an tsráid = the street
◦in the genitive by masculine nouns: an tsagairt = of the priest
◦in the dative, i.e. after many prepositions + article
■in Connacht and in the standard only by feminine nouns, even if eclipsis would be required: ar an tsráid = on the street , but not by masculine nouns: ag an sagart = by the priest
■in Ulster by feminine and masculine nouns: ag an tsagart = by the priest
■in Munster by feminine and masculine nouns only after the leniting forms den (de + an), don (do + an), sa (i + an): don tsagart = to the priest
3.preceding numbers with a vowel after the article an in the nominative/accusative no matter if it's followed by a feminine or masculine noun: an t-aon bhád amháin = the one boat, an t-aonú .....deag, an t-ochtú, an t-ochtódú, an t-ochtar, an t-ocht. (not in the dative: ar an ochtar)
4.preceding s- after -n, if -n occurs in another word than the article (e.g. colloq. in Árainn an-tsean = very old instead of the standard an-sean), often after aon (colloq. aon tsúil = an eye ; probably etymolog. wrong, in analogy to the t-prefix after the article, standard: aon súil)
Sometimes this occurs in names, e.g. after Clann = Family : Clann tSuibhne = MacSweeney Family

the above passage taken from: http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm


a website which I think you will find very helpful for all the rules of Irish grammar

it is wonderful that there are still people who love the language... so many take it for granted here

@Toomey

The Christina Brothers Grammar is still the authoritative text for correct grammar.

An bhfuil tú ag séanadh go bhfuil inscne fós sa chaint? An bhfágann daoine "na" ar lár sa ghinideach baininscneach? Ní dóigh liom é.

I gcead duit, is fearr cloí le tuairimí údarásacha nuair atá foghlaimeoirí ag lorg comhairle, seachas tuairimí phearsanta.

Is féidir gurb é a bhi i gceist aige nach rabh's ag achan chainteoir duchais cad é ata in ainm bhaininscneach agus in ainm fhirinscneach, labhrann siad gan smaoiteamh, i ngan fhios daofa, ghnionn siad na hathraionnai toisigh agus usaideann siad é agus i gan smaoiteamh cad é a chiallas sé o thaobh na gramadai do.
Ach nil mé cinnte an bhfuil sin fior, mar go dtearn achan chainteoir Gaeltachta staidéar ar a' Ghaeilg ar scoil... sileam go bhfuil's acu uilig cad é an duifear eadar baininscneach agus firinscneach...

quote:

The Christina Brothers Grammar is still the authoritative text for correct grammar.

For Standard correct grammar...
What native speakers use is correct grammar as well, although not standard.

Absolutely, Lughaidh.

(Native speakers by *your* definition! Which is not every fluent speaker nor even, regrettably, every speaker from the Gaeltacht)

quote:

And native speakers haven't a clue what gender nouns are meant to possess.

This is simply an inaccurate statement since native speakers spend their days producing probably thousands of instances of applying accurate agreement to nouns based on their gender. Native speaking children do this as well. Most of them probably couldn't explain it grammatically, but they could probably tell you it is natural or unnatural. This is not unique to Irish. We from the outside look in and try to sift out the logic -- endings, sound patterns, etc. -- it won't always be that easy. Language is not always logical. Some words will be a certain gender based on language changes which occurred hundreds of years ago. The only tip I can give is memory. Some of the short-cuts will work, but mostly you've got to remember the gender of every word. Luckily God gave us a wonderful brain which assimilates this into long-term memory, and then we produce them like natives!

A good drill, which is akin to something I experienced with German, is saying the words with the article. Now a lot of books don't do this, but instead give you an m or an f. I think, though, this is a better method since it is what you would recall in your mind. (Recalling m's of f's, or f's or b's, in your mind can certainly be fun when trying to speak or write!)

an aimsir weather
an t-amhrán song
an t-arán bread
an buachaill boy
an cailín girl
an chathaoir chair
an doras door
an fear man

Etc.

It might be easier to memorise something in the genitive, when the article switches

tuar na haimsire
ainm an amhráin
blas an aráin
hata an bhuachaill
hata an chailín
cúl na cathaoireach
cúl an dorais
hata an fhir
hata na mná

(And I'll confess to having checked some of those)

Sure. And the bonus of memorizing the genitive form of some of the words!

On the point of "native speakers and noun gender", it is likely that the original system of noun declension has begun to fade - and this may be addressed by the new Caighdeán in discussion.

Seánw said "This is simply an inaccurate statement since native speakers spend their days producing probably thousands of instances of applying accurate agreement to nouns based on their gender. "

Actually, Seánw, this is not necessarily true, and this is the crux of the debate. Had that been true, there would be no discussion of whether noun declension is starting to go... Gender is hit and miss in the Gaeltacht now -- it is not true to say that most native speakers maintain consistent declension patterns and genders -- partly because other dialects and the Caighdeán are heard in the media, creating a certain amount of confusion within each Gaeltacht as to what the right forms are. If you say "an t-ainm" or "an ainm" - no one is going to even notice this - as the forms are both used in parts of Ireland and so it has muddied the waters to a great extent. As for lenition after feminine nouns - lenition in the Gaeltacht is also hit and miss. Sometimes there and sometimes not. You can even hear rival forms being switched in the same sentence.

It can be interesting to ask native speakers what noun plurals are - and find they either say they don't know (the usual response), or they give the Standard Irish version, or they give some older version. Try asking a native speaker what the plural of aghaidh is - I know, I did it over the past month - and you will get a number of different responses (including, níl a fhios agam) - at the very least, such questions lead to a lot of discussion. The answers I got in the Cork Gaeltacht were 1) don't know; 2) aghaidheanna; 3) aighthe; 4) the word is not used or not needed in the plural.

There are words that are likely to be declined correctly. I don't think anyone would say "an t-aimsir" for "an aimsir", but then there are plenty of others where confusion abounds, especially among younger speakers. Try dlí (feminine in PUL's works) for masculine vs. feminine. Ag déanamh an dlí or ag déanamh na dlí? I think both forms would be found - and few native speakers would want to be pinned down on either.

Why is there confusion? You could say it is because the native speakers do not have a lot of written and audio material (eg via TV) in their own dialects consistently, and so they have become unclear on the forms. And yet there were no newspapers or TV in 16th century Ireland, and they managed quite well then. For a start, it is likely that some variation on genders and declension forms has existed for centuries, but apart from that, while there were few printed books in Irish before the late 19th century, it was a very verbal culture. There were manuscripts of course, but what I mean is the tradition of telling stories. The oral tradition. The seanchaidhthe of each area would gather people round and recite stories, and so there was a strong literary aspect to the culture, even if that literature was oral literature. And of course where people only speak one language, they tend to speak it better - a monoglot speaker would know what the Irish for "faces" was - or at least would know what he would say. Whereas, a bilingual speaker largely exposed to English might be a little hesitant on less frequently used forms, and probably accept a number of a variants or even ad hoc forms.

Interestingly, when Osborn Bergin asked Peadar ua Laoghaire now sléighe, the genitive of sleagh (spear, sleá in Standardized Irish) was pronounced in his edition of Don Quixote in Irish, quoted at http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c24/c24-280-284.pdf, he replied: "I think the gen. I have heard was “slethe ”, but I am not sure. Try and get it from some very old speaker." The Simplified Spelling version of PUL's Don Quixote transcribed this words as shlehi. So if PUL was unsure of some of the genitives, it is scarcely surprising that many native speakers today would not be clear on many of them either...