From another thread, I saw this quote and want to expand on it:

It is precisely the real factors of perceived economic benefit and social status/opportunity that caused the first language shift that are the only chances of turning that back. Irish has made some headway in some of these areas (like social status), but has a long, long way to go in others (like perceived economic benefits and advancement opportunities).

My father was Irish and my mother was Jewish. So I've been thinking about these issues for a long time. How and why did the Jews maintain Yiddish as a minority language in Poland, Russia, Romania, etc while also knowing the local language perfectly?

The key is that there is a real and large economic benefit to maintaining a minority language if that language gets you membership in a commercial community. The Jews historically were the merchants of eastern Europe, and Yiddish was the language of the community. If you spoke the language, you had access to business information and friends that others did not.

Follow the money. The Irish learned English because of the economic benefits. It can work the other way as well. And I've read there are already studies showing that those fluent in Irish do better economically than those without Irish, and it was attributed entirely to belonging to a tight-knit group willing to help each other get good jobs.

So a logical course of action is to find wealthy people of Irish descent, probably in America, and convince them that Irish is not only part of their heritage, but useful for creating a business community as well. If they start learning Irish, others will follow.

"So a logical course of action is to find wealthy people of Irish descent, probably in America, and convince them that Irish is not only part of their heritage, but useful for creating a business community as well. If they start learning Irish, others will follow."

Well, I have never had that thought before, but I do believe an awful lot of the future of Irish is bound up with helping the diaspora to learn it.

Yiddish as an international language is also something I have never considered before. What I have wondered about is getting some of the descendents of the Wild Geese on board i.e. non-native English speakers in France and Spain. Too late maybe, but 'twould be a good one if it could be done.

Yes, that sounds like an excellent idea to me. Those Wild Geese descendants have the advantages of NOT speaking English as a first language and perhaps maintaining a higher social status over the centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_the_Wild_Geese

If they're interested in learning Irish and forming international social bonds with it, that would help a lot.

And more broadly, everyone who speaks French and Spanish helps dilute the overwhelming influence of English, giving more room for Irish to survive. Maybe Ireland should invite French and Spanish to come live in Ireland.

Oh no, not French people in Ireland! Travelling to Ireland would become a nightmare :-)
French people don't speak English simply because they're hopeless in languages and because they think the French language is the best one in the world, that's all (and because they mistrust English and American people!).

:-)

That's all fine! The French are natural allies of the Irish language, even if they don't know it. If the French won't speak English, fine, I love them for it.

"creating a business community"

The problem is that such a thing must develop organically. Jews who spoke Yiddish clustered together upon arrival in the US because most of their English wasn't so hot. They learned English in fairly short order, but not before they found themselves in a de facto community of fluent Yiddish speakers. In "the old country" they had been forced into ghettoes of various degrees of officialdom. They could go day to day speaking only Yiddish to cradle-speakers as long as they didn't leave their neighborhoods.

Such is not the case with Irish, and no matter how many people learn it in New York, Paris, or even Dublin it is unlikely that Gaeilge could match Yiddish for community language utility.

Still, every step in that direction is beneficial for the langauge.

quote:

That's all fine! The French are natural allies of the Irish language, even if they don't know it. If the French won't speak English, fine, I love them for it.

lol
Sure they don't know it : most French don't even know Irish exists. When you talk about Irish, most say "Irish? it's a kind of English that's spoken in Ireland, right?". They don't know that another language is spoken there. And by the way, many French people think Ireland is more or less a part of England since people speak English there (the French mentality, caused by several centuries of propaganda : 1 country = 1 nation = 1 language, so they don't understand what happens when there are several nations or languages in a country).

If the French were to associate Irish with Breton, Flemish, Basque, Catalan, and the other non-French languages spoken in their territory they might not prove very friendly or supportive. Because a French force landed in Killala in 17?? does not mean they would be any more tolerant of our Irish Revival than the English. We've got to do it ourselves, a chairde. Muid fhéin! As ár stuaim féin. :-)

I met a French woman last year who had pretty good Irish.Even if she was struggling to find a word she never went into French or English,just kept plugging away.I met her on a course.In retrospect,her huge advantage was not having very fluent English.

There's a handful of people who speak Irish in France, yes. There are exceptions...

But as Taidhgin said, if Irish had been spoken in France, it would have been treated as Breton or Corsican are, ie. everything would have been done to make it disappear.

But you could look at it the other way too: the French might be delighted to support Irish in Ireland exactly because they see it as analogous to Breton in France: a threat, no matter how small, to the majority language. They'd love to see English get more competition.

Maybe the French government would even pay for some Irish language schools or teaching materials! Bheadh sé sin go hiontach.

But back to the idea of getting wealthy Irish Americans to speak Irish: it would be a huge boost to the prestige of Irish if the Kennedys sent their kids to the Gaeltach each summer.

"But back to the idea of getting wealthy Irish Americans to speak Irish: it would be a huge boost to the prestige of Irish if the Kennedys sent their kids to the Gaeltacht each summer."

Now that WOULD be SOMETHING! Anyone got enough contacts to suggest it to them?

quote:

But you could look at it the other way too: the French might be delighted to support Irish in Ireland exactly because they see it as analogous to Breton in France: a threat, no matter how small, to the majority language. They'd love to see English get more competition.

They see English as a threat in the French-speaking countries, but to them it's normal that people (everybody) speak English in English-speaking countries.

quote:

Maybe the French government would even pay for some Irish language schools or teaching materials! Bheadh sé sin go hiontach.

That would never happen. They close schools every year in France (they say it's to save money, but we don't see any change) and they reduce the number of teachers posts every year for the same reason. They wouldn't give a single pingin ruadh for a foreign language (especially a minority one)...

quote:

But back to the idea of getting wealthy Irish Americans to speak Irish: it would be a huge boost to the prestige of Irish if the Kennedys sent their kids to the Gaeltach each summer.

that's true... it'd be a good idea !

"We've got to do it ourselves, a chairde. Muid fhéin! As ár stuaim féin. :-)"

No doubt about that, but a bit of outside glam helps encourage the folks at home who are influenced by that sort of thing. ;-)

To her eternal credit "our" President, a Soilse Máire Mhic Giolla Íosa, in her first year of office when faced with a clash between her Irish language course in Gleann Cholm Cille, Co Thír Chonaill, and attending the Royal Dublin Horse Show in Dublin as guest of honour chose the former. What a furore that caused. Great publicity for Oideas Gael and a reminder of the importance of Irish and the shift in social status from the RDS "types" to the new "Republic of Ireland" types.

Now there's a question: if a certain VIV - very important visitor - accepts an invitation to come to Ireland (South) will we be allowed to accord her full honours in our language or will we be expected to confine ourselves to hers? Will she accord us the honour of including a few words and phrases of our language as the Pope did long ago? Will the crowds be as big? Or will the visit be "low key" and over before we know it?

Now if she went to the Gaeltacht and spoke Irish.

Don't get me wrong. I thank the God above that all the developments are towards peace and justice. I am fully in favour of anything that confirms the new relationships. an tsíocháin, an chóir (difficult word that) agus an comh--mheas: peace, justice, and mutual respect.

I don't think the cúpla focail is beyond the competence of QE2.

After all,QE1 had a little Irish grammar/phrase book.

It still exists ,I believe.After the pleasantries - cad is ainm duit,conas tá tú etc - it read 'Abair i Laidin,le do thoil'.

Luckily most educated Europeans had Latin.But its amazing how Yiddish has survived both the hostility of anti semites and that of Zionists.Amazing too how the latter revived Hebrew.Perhaps if David Marcus had a prominent role in reviving Irish years ago the outcome would have been better! He was certainly our best Jewish Gaeilgeor.

Lughaidh,

Generally speaking...if a French speaker has reasonably good English, would they prefer to speak English to someone with passable French (but not nearly fluent) or continue in French, even though the accent might not be good etc.?

quote:

Generally speaking...if a French speaker has reasonably good English, would they prefer to speak English to someone with passable French (but not nearly fluent) or continue in French, even though the accent might not be good etc.?

If I understand what you mean, I think it depends on the person : someone who loves English will prefer to speak English (as I prefer to speak Irish than another language with someone who speaks Irish too, for instance).
But most French people, I think, will prefer to speak French because they're too lazy to make an effort to speak another language. And in France there is some odd mentality, French people feel ridiculous when they speak a foreign language, and use foreign sounds and accents. In language classes (in schools), the pupils who try to have a proper accent and to pronounce the right sounds, are laughed at by the other pupils (that happens in the Breton and Occitan "Gaelscoltacha" as well, for instance). If you don't want to be laughed at, you have to have a flat French accent in all languages. That's one of the reasons for French people to be hopeless in languages :-)

Going back to your question : One significant example I saw this year in the university I worked in : the teachers of German (native speakers of French) would always speak French to the German language assistants (native speakers of German, but fluent in French), although both were fluent in German, and are supposed to like speaking German...

The only teachers and assistants who speak together in the language they teach, are the teachers of minority languages (Breton, Welsh, Irish...), even though it's not their mother tongue. As if it were more important to speak the language as much as possible ; while teachers of German don't care... maybe the teachers of minority languages are more passionate than the teachers of "widely used" languages... Just my own guess.

Here's a list of famous Gael-Mheiriceánach whose descendants might be interested in attending a gaelscoil:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_Americans

Probably more important is the following list, because the politicians love to play up their Irishness in the press:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_American_politicians

If there's one thing the Irish excelled at in America, it's politics. And they politicians are probably easier to contact than some wealthy industrialist.

Is é seo an pobal a chruthú.

Lughaidh,what you describe vis-a- vis French people learning a foreign language is uncannily similar to my classroom experiences in Ireland and the UK.Pupils who made a valiant stab at French vowel sounds or 'nasalisation' were hooted out of it by their classmates.Even more so if teacher lavished praise on them.

Likewise girls and boys returning from Coláistí Samradh would keep up their newfound fíor-gaeilge for a bit.But they soon copped on - nobody likes a smart ass. Sometimes even the teacher would give them the cold shoulder.

This 'embarrassment' factor is worse for children than adults and I suppose is culturally conditioned.Being mediocre at 'foreign' languages is a sort of badge of national virility.Tony Blair,par example,is fluent en Francais.But I bet that wasn't mentioned on the British embassy press handouts when he was in Washington,tucking into his freedom fries.Slán go foil.

quote:

Lughaidh,what you describe vis-a- vis French people learning a foreign language is uncannily similar to my classroom experiences in Ireland and the UK.Pupils who made a valiant stab at French vowel sounds or 'nasalisation' were hooted out of it by their classmates.Even more so if teacher lavished praise on them.

I didn't know that ; I knew students at Coleraine University who had studied French at school before, and their accent was quite good or even very good for some of them. Maybe they were exceptions...

What MacDara says about students learning French is certainly true in my school, where people speak French with their normal accents for fear of being laughed at.

I remember when...about twenty years ago...I was in An Rinn, sitting in the pub "Seanchai" Evylen O Donnahue the proprietress(Bhi moran Gaeilge/Bearla aici!) when a group of French tourists drove up in their rented Mercedes cars and they came in and sat down and wanted to know if there was a French-speaking waiter to take their food order from a menu written in English/Irish!!!
Well, since I'm a French-speaking Gaeilgeoir, I volunteered to be the waiter and I took their food orders in French and gave their orders to Evylen in Irish!!Then I said to the French, "J'espere qu'il n'y rein perdu dans la traduction!!!"
That's when the French discovered they could speak some English!!

The French enjoyed their meals, and they learned some Irish also!! People are people!! It just depends on how one deals with them!!

Harp

Great story Harp.Actually the French girl I referred to went to An Rinn also.She attended Daonscoil na Múmhan a couple of times.I was meant to go one time ach ní raibh misneach i mo croí,faraor and I funked it.But if i ever get the money again......

Wow, I just ran across this article accusing gaelscoileanna of elitism and racism:

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/education/october-08/Ireland-s--Gaelscoilean na--Creating-Educational-Divide.html

This is wonderful for the Irish language: to be perceived as something desirable and hard to get, and yet actually be open to anyone to learn.

The historical irony is intense, but it's great news for the language nonetheless.

"elitism and racism:"

that's stupid since gaelscoltacha are happy to welcome foreign-born children...

But it is a useful stick, and hard to counter - it is like asking "have you stopped beating your wife yet".

Yes,critics of Irish can come at it from two angles,often in the same conversation.

On the one hand every year thousands of parents are claiming their kids are dyslexic and thousands more students opt for Pass Irish/foundation.Results are poor and not improving in the English medium schools.


Ar an taobh eile....if you send your child to a Gaelscoil,very likely you are a crypto racist at worst and a snob at best.It can't be that you want your children to have fluency in Irish,because the critic doesn't want it for his children and therefore cannot understand this motive.

It may be that some parents send their kids to a Gaelscoil in order to access a decent all round education - which should be obtainable in a National School but isn't - ach sin scéal eile,surely? At least some hostility to Gaelscoileanna is being generated by other schools , i mo thuairim.

There is certainly an element of that. (And I think the Teachers unions and Department of Education are not too pleased at the proof that enthusiastic teachers get better results....)

... enthusiastic teachers fluent in Irish and willing to speak it in front of the children ... What is the point of "Come on now, a pháistí, we're going to do Gaeilge now" etc Children are so clued in and receptive that a phrase need only be used once in context for it to be known the next time and the beauty of using Irish in context is that it will always be remembered in association with a particular activity. Who does not remember "clé, deas, clé" or "an bhfuil cead agam dul amach" etc Every teacher could do a lot to show respect for Irish and let the children know how much they value the language themselves.

Don't forget the Gaelscoileanna that ended up in court (An Daingean, Daingean Uí Chúis, Dingle) or in a boycott (Sraith Salach, Recess). Every Gaelscoil has to endure hardship and sacrifice to succeed. They are left in old buildings for years but they illustrate the real meaning of "school" -- it is not the building it is "spiorad agus meanma an chomhluadair agus pobal na scoile". They also reveal how strong the desire is to learn the language again.

Sending your children to an Irish-medium school when your neighbours are sighing that their children "can't" learnt the language is an extraordinarily brave and thoughtful action and invariably reaps a tremendous reward for all concerned. Old Ireland is not dead yet and the best is yet to come. Guímis bua agus biseach ar an nGaeilge, ár dteanga dílis féin.

Many immigrant children being bilingual already in an Eastern European or African language and English do very well in Irish. I talked to such parents about it and was told that their children were coming first in the class in Irish as well as other subjects. Having no complexes they made the effort and succeeded. I am sure enthusiastic teachers of Irish could tell more about this phenomenon. I suspect many other teachers use the presence of immigrant children in the class to reduce the amount of Irish taught. Am I right?

I don't know Taidghín,as you say we need more feedback on here from teachers.Also alumni of Gaelscoileanna,that would be a big help.

I do know a teacher from a very poor part of inner city Dublin who says his best scholar of Irish is from the Democratic Republic of Congo.This boy is doing well,considering his 'life chances' ( as sociologists say) have so far been rather few and paltry.From war torn DRC to crack addled BAC - maith an buachaill.