A Chairde,

I've started a thread in the Irish Only Forum about learning Irish by using Irish only. I've been studying Irish for some years now and feel I'm somewhere between the beginner and intermediate levels. I feel like I'll be forever stuck at this level unless I made a fundamental change about how I study Irish. I've come to the conclusion that the biggest obstacle for me learning Irish is the constant inclusion of English in my studies, be it using an Irish-English dictionary or discussing things in this forum in English.

I'd like to invite others who may be interested in studying Irish using Irish only to join in the thread and other threads that I hope will be started by like-minded learners. I know this approach isn't for everyone, especially those who may just be beginning the study of Irish or for those who like to discuss various related subjects here in the English language.

Go raibh maith agaibh.

David (formerly known as Bodhrán)

FRC - GRMA

A chairde,

I just wanted to report back here and say how much I'm enjoying studying Irish on the Irish Only Forum and also to thank the other members for their encouragement. I also wanted to let those that have posted to the thread that I'm not ignoring what you've written. It's just that I'm struggling to understand your postings - and it's a good struggle since I feel that I'm learning Irish better because of it. There are many words that I don't know in Irish and I'm trying to learn Irish the way I learned English. That is, when I see a word that I don't know, I look it up in An Foclóir Beag (Gaeilge-Gaeilge) first, by either using the on-line version or the hard copy that I have.

The reason I'm doing this is I want to eliminate English as much as possible while I'm studying Irish. If after trying to understand the definition in An Foclóir Beag, and I still don't understand the word, then I look up the word in FGB, but I would rather not do that since it then brings the crutch of English back into the picture.

So, I want to thank those who have been participating in the Irish-only thread since your help is invaluable to my learning Irish. And I will be responding to what you've written to me there... once I understand what you've said!

And although it's not my position to invite or tell other learners how to conduct their studies, I would be happy to see others, including beginners, to join in the fun. Ok, it's back to the Irish-only forum for me!

Go raibh maith agaibh,

David

(Message edited by rothaí on May 16, 2010)

A chairde,

Just reporting back once again. It's only been a week since I've been posting on the Irish-only forum here, but I can definitely say my Irish is getting better because of it. It's nice to finally shake off the shackles of English while studying Irish.

Faberm also made a posting there, so it's good to see other learners join in. Sinéad has also posted there, but since her Irish is so good, I don't know if she's a learner or one of the fluent ones here. Same goes for Seánw, Taidhgin, and An Chilleasrach . And then of course there's Aonghus, who is so generous with his time in helping us learn Irish.

Anyway, there's a discussion going on at the Irish-only forum about tatoos, which I thought I'd mention since that's always such a popular subject here. I'm having difficulty choosing the right tatoo - it's not for me - but if you have any suggestions, I would be glad to hear them - at the Irish Only forum of course!


(Message edited by rothaí on May 18, 2010)

Oh Sinéad is a learner trust me :) Good on you for keeping the momentum going and yep I can see a difference in your Irish already, I meant to say it to you actually.

I've learned some things from it too- you can think that you "know" a grammar rule for example, and you whizz by it when you are reading it, but then when it comes to writing, you can be careless and forget the rule!! Such as for me, writing a hAonghuis, there is no H before Aonghus here and I do know that, but it slipped in when I wrote it.

So we are all benefiting from your thread Rothaí :)

So there's no aspiration in the vocative before a vowel? Oops,think I wrote a hAonghuis freisin,mo leithsceil!

Don't think we'll forget again!

A Shinéad,

Thanks for the compliment regarding the improvement in my Irish. And I agree with your comments above about learning things by trial and error. I recently read the book "Success Through Failure" by Henry Petroski, which covers the subject of how designs throughout the ages have been improved not by previous successes, but instead by previous failures. Although the book is based on engineering designs, it's an easy ready and was a real eye-opener for me. That is, I think many things in life are learned by failing, not succeeding, including the learning of a new language. I can't help but think how easy children learn language - they do it by trial and error - or to use a stronger, more accurate term, failing.

So when you mention above how you'll never forget about whether to aspirate the vocative before a vowel, you've come to that conclusion because of a failure (I hope the word doesn't come across as rude). I bring this up because this is what I experience on a daily basis now that I've taken the opportunity to participate on the Irish-only forum. I'm learning much faster, and better because of my failures. Again, it's success through failure, as Petroski would say. And that's the only thing that matters to me when it comes to learning the Irish language - success.

Ah rothai, that's like a breath of fresh air. I must get that book on ebay or the likes, sounds really interesting.

Just wanted to say that I modified my approach to studying on the Irish-only forum. I found that there are just two many words that I don't know to be able to use Foclóir Beag (FB) alone. So, I now use Foclóir Gaeilge Béarla (FGB) as a go-between and progress is going well.

But I made a very pleasant discovery thanks to Taidhgín's help. While reading the Aon Scéal thread on the Irish-only forum, I couldn't understand what "áirithe" meant, even after reading it's definition in FB(Irish-Irish) and FGB (Irish-English) So, I mentioned, in Irish of course, that I didn't understand. Taidhgín took the time to explain in simple enough Irish what it meant by using an example of going to a restaurant and voila - tuigim anois - go raibh milliún maith agat a Thaidhgín!

Just thought I'd mention this method of learning - that is - having it explained in Irish I think is far more valuable than translating into the shackles of English.


(Message edited by rothaí on May 22, 2010)

Rothaí, you're doing well. Just wondering, alongside the practice you are getting here on Daltai, are you finding time to read some simple enough novels to increase your vocabulary or what other methods are you using at the mo?

Sinéad,

I've been studying Irish on and off for about the last 9 years or so. I've had the privilege of studying with the Daltaí organization here in New Jersey. The many excellent teachers with Daltaí have introduced some beginner books to us at times and I have picked up my share of books along the way. The best part of taking classes with Daltai was the interaction with the teachers and their ability to get those of us who applied ourselved off to a good start.

Currently I'm revisiting Buntús Cainte series and trying to make a concerted effort to make that quantum leap into a full-fledged intermediate learner, whatever that means . I've always had this idea that if I can eliminate English from my study of Irish, I could actually learn the language. I got the idea from the Daltai teachers, because all of them, to a person, converse with their students in Irish only. Of course sometimes they need to instruct using English as would be expected with beginning students.

So, I want to continue that learning process that started with the Daltaí teachers and apply the same ideas here. I think it's unfortunate that there are very few Daltai students (and no teachers) that post here at this site, when, during any given semester, there are dozens of students in the classes. I've always wondered why that is. Is it because the postings here can at times be too academic for the average student? Is it because many of the discussions here center around using the English language to discuss an Irish word?

Well, enough about me.... agus tu fein?

David


(Message edited by rothaí on May 22, 2010)

Rothaí, as you must know I am delighted to help a learner who is willing to take that leap into the Irish language and allow speakers of Irish to make themselves understood without having to resort to English.

Exposing your level of Irish to the gaze of other Irish-speakers requires courage. In the hurried world of the Gaeltacht good Irish speakers will just groan at the prospect of not merely responding to your request but also having to find words that you may understand. Most revert instantly to English. That should never happen here. Irish should be welcome here.

There are many good phrases you could use on this side of the Clár Iomrá that would help you on the Irish-only side. I am thinking of these:

Conas a déarfá é seo i nGaeilge: = How would you say this in Irish?

If you don't like "conas" say "cén chaoi a ndéarfá" or "goidé (cad é) mar a déarfá" etc

Gabh mo leithscéal ach ní thuigim é seo: "quote quote quote quote quote "

Rinne mé aistriú ar an abairt deacair sin i snaithe Béarla. An bhfuil an ceart agam? = I have translated that difficult sentence in an English thread. Am I correct?

Rothaí, you posed this question earlier and while you have partially answered it yourself I would like to respond:

quote:

I think it's unfortunate that there are very few Daltai students (and no teachers) that post here at this site, when, during any given semester, there are dozens of students in the classes. I've always wondered why that is. Is it because the postings here can at times be too academic for the average student? Is it because many of the discussions here center around using the English language to discuss an Irish word?

I think these are wonderful sites, an ceann Gaeilge amháin and an ceann dátheangach / bilingual.

Unfortunately it is in the nature of a bulletin board or discussion forum or chat that true communication does not take place. Face to face people would seek to be polite. In the fleeting glance that passes for reading online a hurried response may be written perhaps in jest and devastation results.

If a learner writes a sentence in Irish and instead of just getting a response in Irish from another learner is asked:
"Are you a native speaker?"
"What dialect is that?"
"Surely the word ###### is not used like that."
and so on.

Questions like those are akin to asking a musician after a violin recital: is that instrument in tune?

My own response is likely to be just as discouraging in as much as I know I write too much and use more advanced grammar. I'm a learner too. It is just that I began more than sixty years ago. When reminded to write in simple Irish by a learner such as Rothaí I can do it and I am delighted to be of help.

Finding an all-Irish melieu is not easy on the Internet. There are some. www.studybase.com for example does not cater for beginners but welcomes intermediate and advanced learners of Irish.

With regard to this Irish and English board I have learnt much and I have appreciated the contributions of so many excellent scholars and academics. The study of Irish proceeds apace and all of it is valuable and needs to be encouraged and supported.

From an antiquarian point of view there are many dialects still to be studied, recorded, described, taught, and used so as to enable the younger generations to aquire them. There are numerous manuscripts to be studied and rescued from oblivion. There are hundreds if not thousands of excellent books in Irish unknown to the present generations waiting to be transcribed (not changed!) into our present-day script and spelling and then recorded so that they may be listened to with pleasure. RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta could ease off a bit on the "Irish" music played mostly by people who have not a syllable of Irish between them and throw a few euros to good readers who could read these older books on air in the original dialect. Most are out of copyright. Such a scheme would give financial support to people with good pronunciation in the various dialects.

All these topics are relevant.

Finally there is a new world emerging that is waiting to be described in Irish: now conas a déarfá: fraud -- banksters -- corruption -- the rich get richer -- while they laugh at the poor -- invasion -- withdrawal of troops -- etc etc. Tá a lán le rá fós. Abraimis as Gaeilge é.

I presume "oscailte" in the Irish-only forum title means open to all topics provided the discussion is in Irish?

And that "general discussion" really means "about some aspect of the study and learning of Irish."

quote:

I presume "oscailte" in the Irish-only forum title means open to all topics provided the discussion is in Irish?

Sin an tuiscint a bheadh agamsa air. Ach tá an sórt sin ruda bogtha go saol na mblaganna, cuid mhór.

http://www.google.com/reader/shared/user/14211347917317080531/label/Gaeilge

Ar fheabhas, a Aonghuis, níorbh eol dom a leithéid a bheith ann.

A Thaidhgín,

You always have some of the most inspiring postings - thank you! The phrases that you supplied above to help work between the two forums are very helpful. And your insight into the why's and how's of this site ring true. My remarks above about the dearth of Daltai students wasn't meant to be a lamentation but instead a longing for other like minded students to join in the studies here. But I like how you always tend to keep things on the positive side.

I do want to continue with my experimentation of studying on the Irish-only forum - so what am I doing here on the bi-lingual side? Well, I think you were the one that suggested using the bi-lingual side as an aid in advancing on the Irish-only side. Initially, I resisted that idea, but I tried what you suggested and I'm glad I did. The help that we've receive from members like you and Aonghus is invaluable - I really mean that. It's very much like an extension of the Daltaí classes. And there are others here that have also been helpful to me - I think some of them might be on "sabbatical!"

Anyway, please keep the ideas coming, such as the phrases above, if you don't mind. I don't ever want to take your or Aonghus' and others' help for granted, but I will take it gladly and do appreciate it!


(Message edited by rothaí on May 22, 2010)

A Shinéad,

In regard to what else I'm using to study with, I'm just getting back to using Turas Teanga. I don't know if you're familiar with that book,CD and DVD combo, but it's very well done and very contemporary. It's at the intermediate level so you may be too advanced for it.

Couldn't agree more with what Taidhgín has said about more transcriptions of the old manuscripts needed and accompanying cds with those, and cds with modern books. There are so few cds going with books out there! How great would it be just to add a cd of the author reading his own work- like Joe Steve Ó Neachtain. I think that it would open the books up to even more learners like myself and wouldn't native speakers be madeup listening to the stories in the car, or wherever? So everyone would benefit.

Rothaí, the reason I ask what other aids you are using to learn Irish is because I wanted to see what is working for you and what isn't as you mentioned in another thread that you are making a concerted effort now to up your level of Irish. And that is great because 'active' learning is the key thing that will take you from a state of going along learning bits and bobs here and there, to actually learning it and ending up fluent. I'm not being preachy at all, but I wish someone had told me that! For a few years after leaving college I was dipping in and out of Irish, as in listening to Liam O'Maonlaí cd that came with Irish Independent, listening to some programmes on TG4, etc. and a good friend of mine who is one of the best primary school teachers in the country would drop things into texts and conversation all the time which was also a brill help. It pushed me on too as she had these friends from college who had studied Irish and I was jealous (in a good and tormented way) at how they could speak away in Irish. But yeah at that stage that was the height of it, and I could have gone on like that for 20 years and still not have ever achieved fluency.

So couple of years ago I had this one chance I thought after coming back from doing a postgrad abroad and I got a job in a factory in Conamara for three months. It was extremely naive but I went to conversational classes every week alongside that which bridged the gap. But still progress was just okay. Around that time I met someone else who had gone back to Irish herself and she had great command of the language and she said that the secret to it for her was reading as much as possible. And all that comes with that. Words, grammar, recognising those new words on the radio, being able to use them yourself, etc. (as how you do in your own posts on the Irish only forum). And I think that is the secret to becoming properly fluent.

quote:

... she had great command of the language and she said that the secret to it for her was reading as much as possible.

I agree completely, at least through my experience. Based on someone's advice I bought some books and went at it. I think my abilities in the reading/writing field have increased much through this. There are many reason why this is happening, but the greatest aid I receive is seeing some rule put into use. It brings the theory into the practical realm and hopefully makes my writing more natural. I try to aid my speaking by reading each sentence. I do this because I can read faster than I speak, so if I just mumble in my head, or even read out in my head the English translation, I'll be much slower at my pronunciation, which is already very slow because of my isolation. I highly recommend in addition to reading posts here to get a few short books at first. Some come with CDs as well, so you can hear the speakers read in a natural way.

A Shinéad agus a Sheáin,

Thanks for the advice - you both have good Irish and obviously your learning strategy worked well, but I never expected that your predominate mode of learning was from reading. I also like to learn by reading, but I thought what has been missing in my studies is verbal exchanges or listening to others speak. But based on what you both said above, it looks like if I focus on my reading skills, that I can learn Irish that way also.

But there's something about reading that seems missing. It's as though the reading doesn't sink in. It's also as though I need a better way to have what I read sink in, and I think it's that whole "success-through-failure" mechanism that works for me. That is, when it comes to learning something new in Irish if I exchange Irish either written or spoken with others, what come about in that exchange is at least some word or phrase that I don't know. But by struggling with the word or phrase, and the all-important help from the other person or persons in that exhange, the knowledge sinks in. I'm sure of this because the next time I hear the word or phrase that I previously didn't know, it's stored in my mind somewhere and I can "mentally" see it. I can even remember the situation where I learned the word or phrase.

I wonder if others "see" it that way also. In other words, how do we actually learn anything in Irish? What is that mechanism? Once I determine what that mechanism is, that's what I'm going to employ for my studies in Irish. I'm also convinced that resorting to English translations, either in words or phrases,is the biggest obstacle of all when it comes to learning Irish. But I also have to be pragmatic and realize that I can't learn Irish soley by Irish since there is such a scarcity of learning materials in Irish only.

Rothaí gan bó

Quote Rothaí "I'm sure of this because the next time I hear the word or phrase that I previously didn't know, it's stored in my mind somewhere and I can "mentally" see it. I can even remember the situation where I learned the word or phrase"

I completely agree with that, you are going the right way about it, definitely speaking and writing the Irish to others and getting feedback is fantastic as is how that helps you remember. It's an important part of the learning process without a doubt.

With the reading I do it two ways, I read stuff by good writers be they native speakers or not, and absorb it in a relaxed and passive way, no work or effort. Then the other method is active. I choose the stories/ articles etc. that I like and really look at what they are doing, while also translating what they have written into English and writing down that natural turn of phrase for again.

I think combining all these things over say 2 years will get you to a really good standard, whereas only doing one it could take you decades to learn. That's really what I was trying to help you with, as in it can be done effectively in a shorter period of time if you're using loads of different methods.

One nasty side effect is that my writing in English is deteriorating the better I get at Irish! After a year I'll come back to English and give Irish a break :D hehe

Oh yeah I listen to twice as much Irish as I do read in Irish, so I'm not saying reading is the most important. They're equally important.

from my own experience with French and Spanish, reading is great for increasing your vocab.
I THINK it works best when you have a good bit of the language, though I only had tourist Spanish when I started to read.
I found (for me) it's better to read a novel than short stories, because in a novel, the words and phrases repeat, so there's less dictionary work! Or at least, short stories by one author - reading Muiris Ó Suilleabhán i láthair na huaire (if you meet "íor na spéire" every second page, it sinks in about the tenth time!!)

eadaoin

My wife pretty much taught herself English by reading novels - whodunnits, mostly.

Go raibh maith agaibh. I appreciate the advice. I think I need to supplement my Buntús Cainte/Learning Irish/Turas Teanga with a good novel. I've read some very basic ones, like Dúnmharú ar Dart, which uses only the vocabulary found in Buntús Cainte. It was an easy read because of that.

I have a Book/CD combo called Triobloid which I will get back to, having left off after the first couple of chapters.

if you're into ríomhairí agus cluichí ar an ríomhaire, you might enjoy "Vortex" by Anna Heussaf - it's quite short, I think it's written for teenagers, but being a 60-odd-year-old geek, I enjoyed it.

eadaoin

'Na Comharsana Nua' le Éamonn Ó Loingsigh is one you may enjoy. I found this léirmheas as well so you'll be able to get an idea of what it's about to see if you're interested in the story:

http://www.gaelport.com/sonrai-nuachta?NewsItemID=1366

Don't think you are in Ireland are you? If you are, Cormac Ó Loideáin writes a brilliant article in Foinse every week, well worth picking up some of his turns of phrases. I keep all of his articles. Even if you don't understand all of it straight away, you can pick up some special things.

Thaitin Vortex go mór liomsa freisin.

Tá roinnt úrscéilíní den déanamh céanna ag Iarla Mac Aodha Bhuí atá go maith.

Rothaí,
I agree with much you're saying. Reading shouldn't be it, or in a vacuum. To get the back and forth, watch TG4, listen to the radio, and speak with people in a class if you have one. A good book has good dialogue. You'll also find some good banter etc on blogs, albeit with a bit of delay in the dialogue. I admit freely that I miss a good deal of nuance. I read a sentence last night that I understood in its parts, but not in its whole. I got the sense of the thing and moved on since I realize that I have to stifle my own temperment to want to know every nuance of the minutiae. I wouldn't rule the book options out, though, since it still is a bit more portable than the computer, and probably easier on the eyes. Diversifying your "portfolio" surely means greater chances of success.

Go raibh maith agaibh as an eolas.

A Shinéad, tá ceart agat, táim i mo chónaí i Nua Ghersí.