I have been thinking about the numerical decline of Irish in Munster, and also realising the failure to in 1926 to decide to govern the Gaeltacht in Irish was quite significant. Then it hit me - a whole county has to be governed in Irish, and Kerry has a relatively low population. Galway would be harder - as the overall population is bigger.

As the Muskerry Gaeltacht is near the Kerry border, I would:

*create a Gaeltacht comprising the whole of Co. Kerry and the Muskerry Gaeltacht, and the strip of territory in between, as a solid coterminous block of territory. Call it the Desmond Gaeltacht Authority.

*all teachers in the DGA to teach in Irish only. Make them all gaelscoileanna in other words. Checks to be held on this - this business of paying teachers in the Gaeltacht more money when they might be teaching in English to be halted - they would get more for teaching in Irish only. After training up suitable numbers of teachers, the new policy would be introduced gradually, eg year 1 of school all in Irish this year, spreading over 10 years to year 11.

*I reckon 2000 teachers would be needed in total. In general Irish education has an extremely high number of teachers to pupils. I worked on a 1:12 ratio. I would require all teachers to be native speakers, and think Ireland could just about cobble together enough native speakers for the DGA.

*Munster Irish reintroduced as standard in the DGA, with dictionaries, grammar books and all sorts to back it up. Eventually, as the first cohort leaves school, a couple of radio stations and TV stations purely in Munster Irish (including all the adverts - and subtitles are only in Irish) are set up to support the DGA. All teachers to spend a year studying the new standard Munster Irish. (The other areas of Ireland would not be compelled to adopt this.)

*The explicit aim would be to produce monoglot Gaels. Nothing at all would be in English at school, and play rangers would encourage the speaking of Irish in the playground between the children.

*No one not fluent in Irish would be permitted to move to the DGA area - ever.

*As the first cohorts leave school, jobs in Irish would be provided. All public sector bodies including utilities (whether privatised or not) would be required by law to set up Irish-speaking departments, and all new recruits would have to be to the Irish-speaking departments. All public-sector salaries of English-speaking civil servants to be frozen permanently.

*An Irish-speaking university specifically for the DGA is set up. All subjects taught in Munster Irish only. The University itself is a Gaeltacht and all staff including administrators and cleaners are required to operate in English. Speaking English is gross misconduct, resulting in dismissal.

*Public-sector bodies are given a 20-year period after the first cohorts leave the purely Irish-speaking schools to gradually replace all their English-speaking staff. Eg. in 5 years 10% of their staff are Irish speaking. In 10 years 40%. In 20 years 100%.

*In the 20th year, the whole administration goes Irish only. All politicians in the DGA must be Irish-speaking. All laws and regulations are in Irish, and no translation is provided. All letters from schools to parents are in Irish, and no translations are provided. All policemen are Irish-speaking.

*Anyone who wishes to communicate in English with the DGA authorities, including schools, water, gas, electric utility companies etc, must pay a translation fee. If you turn up to parents' evening at school and try to speak English to the teachers, you must pay 100 euros. If you are in court, and you only speak English, you must pay to have the whole proceedings interpreted for you. If you are arrested and in the police station, you must pay 100 euros for an English-speaking police officer to be found (regardless of whether they all speak English or not).

*After the 20th year, all state bodies must communicate with the residents of the DGA in Munster Irish only, including any letters from Dublin or elsewhere.

*In the 20th year, all radio and TV broadcasting in English and all access to English-language cable and satellite TV halted. Everything is now in Irish only. Children's comics like the Beano and the Dandy set up in Irish, together with about 10 periodicals including women's magazines, current affairs, and other interests. A daily newspaper in Munster Irish. The sale of English-language media prohibited by law.

*In the 20th year after the first cohorts leave school, all products in shops to be labelled in Irish only. Anything found in a shop with a word of English on it is legally free of charge.

*A copyediting course at the DGA university provides the skills for good editing of Irish-language materials to make sure no mistakes are made. All publications required to be copyedited for linguistic quality assurance. The DGA tries to produce 100 books a year in Irish, at first focusing on textbooks for the schools and university and then everything else. The sale of English-language books prohibited from the 20th year after the first cohort leaves school.

*Five-years after the first fluent cohorts leave school a new policy is introduced. Those cohorts will be required to bring their children up in Irish. If their children at age 5 enroll in school and cannot speak Irish, parents are required to pay 1000 euros a year to finance remedial teaching in Irish until that is no longer necessary.

*Grants are given by the state for fluent Irish speakers to move to the DGA, as the stubborn monoglot English speakers flee the area. Public protests against the monoglot Irish policy in the DGA become a criminal offence - if you don't like it, leave.

(Message edited by david_w on April 07, 2010)

(Message edited by david_w on April 07, 2010)

Sounds like the plot of science fiction novel (as Gaeilge ar ndoigh), but I would love to see this happening. The An Carn project above in Derry might be interest to you in some aspects of your proposal.

Well, what I suggested was not the same as An Carn at all. An Carn is not governed in Irish. I am sure the Northern Irish tax authorities send them their bills in English. My idea was for a large area to be governed as a matter of course in Irish, to base that on a Gaeltacht dialect, and to ensure all teachers are native speakers.

I had an idea for a novel while writing that plan out above. What if the English speakers rebelled? They could, cheekily, call themselves the New Whiteboys - and it would be an interesting novel how the New Whiteboys were defeated... They could be transported or "curtha an loch amach" - beyond the borders of the DGA Gaeltacht - dumped in Co. Cork in other words...LOL!

(Message edited by david_w on April 07, 2010)

Parents would never go for it, being monoglot anything is limiting, being a monoglot speaker of a minority language in a sea of English quadruply so:
*The explicit aim would be to produce monoglot Gaels. Nothing at all would be in English at school, and play rangers would encourage the speaking of Irish in the playground between the children.


Not sure such laws would be remotely legal:
*No one not fluent in Irish would be permitted to move to the DGA area - ever.


This is in violation of the Irish constitution:
If you are in court, and you only speak English, you must pay to have the whole proceedings interpreted for you.


Irish speaking parents would move out of the area rather than risk it:
*Five-years after the first fluent cohorts leave school a new policy is introduced. Those cohorts will be required to bring their children up in Irish. If their children at age 5 enroll in school and cannot speak Irish, parents are required to pay 1000 euros a year to finance remedial teaching in Irish until that is no longer necessary.



I had a much simpler plan many years ago, with some elements similar to your plan.

1) every school in the country should become a gaelscoil. They should begin with the lowest grade after a 5 year period of notice to the teachers. Every subsequent year, the subsequent grade would be added so that the children who are starting school in Irish have a consistent program all the way through.

2) everything the government does should be required to be done in Irish FIRST. All publications would be written in Irish then translated into English and not the other way round. All court proceedings should be in Irish only with the government providing English translators as required by the constitution (this would provide many jobs for Irish speakers speaking Irish).

3) print and broadcast media should receive a stipend for publishing/broadcasting 50% of their content in Irish. There should be a larger stipend for publishing/broadcasting 75% in Irish as well.

Not that that should be regarded as the whole picture, but I think if those three things were done, the language would be in a much stronger position 20 years down the road.

Antaine, I understand your points. But to make the Irish language the stable language of a large area, the approach I outlined would be the minimum necessary. In the spirit of interesting debate, rather than argument, I offer the following.

Your other points:

*parents would never go for it. Reply: I am not talking about parents going for it. I am talking about using the power of the state to change the realities that they live in. Quite simply, they would have to deal with the state in Irish or pay translation fees. They would have to bring their children up in English or pay for their education. It wouldn't be a choice.

*violation of the constitution. Reply: never a problem when it comes to what the state wants to do. Membership of the EU violates Article 1 of the constitution. Sure an amendment (a third) to the constitution was brought in to allow Ireland to sign up to the Common Market (as it was then), but then that shows the state can bring in amendments where it feels like.

* every school in the whole of Ireland should become a gaelscoil. Reply: there are not enough native speakers and not enough teachers for that. The PDF at http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/stat_2007_2008.pdf shows there are 67805 primary and second school teachers - this number would require every native speaker (of all ages, including children and pensioners) in the Gaeltacht to become a teacher. It could only be done the way you say by having non-native speakers teaching through Irish.

*everything should be in Irish first. Reply: my idea is that an area is created where everything is through Irish ONLY. Providing Irish translations of EU regulations in the Galltacht is a waste of money, as no one reads them, and a waste of resources, in that the people spent translating such things would be better deployed in the media or education sectors. It makes no sense whatsover to tie up large numbers of Irish speakers in jobs that do not advance the Irish language. Worse, providing Irish translations of EU regulations is just tokenism - it is not complemented by a genuine strategy to make Irish the normal spoken language in the state. In my Desmond area, all court proceedings would be in Irish only.

*media receiving a stipend for Irish. Reply: well, in my Desmond area, the government would simply make sure enough media were available. But linking it to a Gaeltacht area (my area amounts to an extension of the Dunqin-Ballyferriter Gaeltacht) would ensure those media were in good, natural Irish. Just offering stipends across the 26 or 32 counties simply generates mountains of bad Irish - a point demonstrated by Gaelscéal recently.

My idea links Irish to a Gaeltacht, because without a Gaeltacht, the quality of Irish and the strength of support for Irish will diminish rapidly. That is why currently Irish in the Galltacht is not supported - while maybe it should be, the idea has always been to retain WHOLE AREAS where Irish is the normal community language. Your approach Antaine, is an approach to a post-Gaeltacht Ireland where the state tries to support the language everywhere, with nowhere being a Gaeltacht. In fact, Antaine, after the Gaeltacht dies out, the Irish language is simply going to be take off the curriculum in Ireland except for specialist Gaelscoileanna. I simply feel the Irish authorities should not allow the Gaeltacht to die out. Period. Defend it. Extend it.

(Message edited by David_w on April 07, 2010)

Are you at all interested in the responsibility that 'the Irish authorities' may feel to the rest of the country?

If the Irish government were to adopt even half of the things that you propose (within the DGA), Munster Irish would certainly flourish.

>>Are you at all interested in the responsibility that 'the Irish authorities' may feel to the rest of the country?


Yes, but they would be creating a Gaeltacht county to preserve Irish for the whole country. There would be a place people from 31 counties could visit to practice their Irish. It would improve the whole thing for everyone.

>>The University itself is a Gaeltacht and all staff including administrators and cleaners are required to operate in English.

I meant to say... "in Irish"

I think that local leadership should be taken when it comes to re-establishing the Irish Language. The same goes for the economy, since our government is in such a state.

(Message edited by seamás91 on April 07, 2010)

quote:

Public protests against the monoglot Irish policy in the DGA become a criminal offence - if you don't like it, leave.

Gaeilge, Gaeilge über alles!

Here's another idea: beatings with tally sticks for anyone speaking English!

Where do you come up with this stuff!? Madness.

It'll never happen because there's no demand for it. Most people in Ireland are more than content to have English as their first language.

quote:

If their children at age 5 enroll in school and cannot speak Irish, parents are required to pay 1000 euros a year to finance remedial teaching in Irish until that is no longer necessary.

Ireland is in financial ruin and you're fantasizing about these crazy scenarios. Get a grip.

Hi, what I outlined was the minimum to really make Ireland the ordinary language of an area - which is the stated national policy of the government since the 1920s. As it is, national policy has slowed the dissolution of the Gaeltacht. Probably without the support that has been given, there would be no Gaeltacht anywhere by now. But I am talking about the long-term survival.

You are right, that if there is not the political will to do what I have outlined, then the Irish language is doomed over the course of this century.

In a really patriotic political culture, campaigns against policies to restore the Irish language would be viewed as unacceptable. Don't forget that the Establishment has the ability to force its policies on people - and they do. I don't want to move into other areas of discussion, but the cultural revolution since the 1960s in most countries and more recently in Ireland has been more or less forced on the nations involved. There are arguments pro and anti, but undeniably state power has been brought in to force the issue. Saying the "wrong" thing can invoke a prison sentence in a much more "robust" response than anything I am suggesting re: the Irish language.

>>Ireland is in financial ruin and you're fantasizing about these crazy scenarios. Get a grip.

It is true the recession has gone on for a couple of years now, but the actual recession is over. True the recovery needs to get stronger, but I would still prefer to stay away from the more alarmist scenarios. As a columnist in the Irish Independent said yesterday, Ireland doesn't need to pay back its debt - most countries just outgrow their debt via economic growth and inflation - it just needs pro-growth policies.

We could look back in 5 years time and the world be mired in depression, but we could look back in 5 years time and see a recovery well under way, with budgets balanced and national debt falling as a % of GDP. Ireland is an extremely wealthy country, and it is too early to write it off. Quite simply I am saying that education in the Gaeltacht be availably only in Irish - maybe those who want something else should go private - as education in English would simply be unavailable. Coercive policies, indeed much more coercive policies, are the norm elsewhere in the political cultures of Europe and North America...

I agree Danny. It's like a micromanagers dream come true. David, you've complained about the government getting involved in people's education etc. and said you're libertarian. Doesn't sound very libertarian.

quote:

I don't want to move into other areas of discussion, but the cultural revolution since the 1960s in most countries and more recently in Ireland has been more or less forced on the nations involved. ... Coercive policies, indeed much more coercive policies, are the norm elsewhere in the political cultures of Europe and North America...

So should they be forced back. people who "convert" at the point of a gun, don't convert. In fact, they'd probably leave. Just make sure the exits are marked well in that Gaeltacht!

(Message edited by seánw on April 07, 2010)

Well, it's not libertarian. Libertarianism would involved abolishing state education, closing down all national and local education authorities, and leaving it up to schools and parents what they wanted to provide and what parents were willing to pay for. But as you have guessed - there is not the public support for libertarianism either. People like subsidies. Now if the state is going to subsidise anything, the national polity has the right to impose some goals too. Why should people have Public Sector jobs in Ireland - and speak English all the while? In a libertarian state there would be (almost no) state sector, and no state goals either. What I don't support is the state duty's to finance things, while the things are hurtling in the wrong direction.

Libertarianism is a spectrum with only the most strict side advocating abolition of state schooling. It's a mote point, though, because every Irish citizen has the right by their Constitution to abolish state education in their lives. The place to look is not at setting up a new bureaucracy, i.e., my plan, but at "renewing the face" of the current one. A real goal would be getting people into office which support the Irish speakers and could put a voice to their desires while inspiring the English speakers to embrace their ancestral language. How do you inspire complacent people?

I see and accept all your points - but then the game will be over some point in the century. I am just glad there are enough good speakers to last my lifetime. I should be quite happy when I get my pension if I have conquered the somewhat steep heights of Gaelainn na Mumhan.

You know, from a libertarian perspective, if the Irish people are happy with English, then that's it. And when I was in Cork city - nice city though it was - it struck me as not being very distinct from an English city. I didn't feel abroad there. In a bookshop, I asked about Irish language books, to be told "there might be some in the foreign language section". I asked, "is Irish a foreign language then?" I could understand then why Irish-language activists got so passionate - it must be infuriating dealing with people in Irish cities who refer to Irish as a foreign language! And, you guessed it - there were no Irish books, even in the foreign language section.

I love bookshops and shopping for books was a crushing disappointment in County Cork. I imagined I might walk into a secondhand bookshop and find hundreds of books in seanchló, just waiting to be scooped up by yours truly. But in fact - donas an sgéil ar fad - you could have got more Irish-language books in the secondhand bookshops in London - at least you could have got some, which is more than the zero available in Cork!

Really, I was daydreaming with my plan - I know the Irish politicians would never go for it. But the only way to restore the position of Irish would be to make it the necessary language. Your idea of cajoling people just doesn't work. I did actually wonder, seeing a house for sale on the Great Blasket Island, whether an English speaker is going to take over that island - you see in the absence of determined policies, they are just going with the flow - downwards.

Join the club, David. There's a lot of alienation and soul searching these days. Don't let the malaise of this time defeat the desires to promote Irish. There are people who want to learn and are succeeding. Seek them! A drop in the bucket in time fills the whole thing.

quote:

I see and accept all your points - but then the game will be over some point in the century ... But the only way to restore the position of Irish would be to make it the necessary language. Your idea of cajoling people just doesn't work.

I wouldn't say cajoling. Most people change their behavior, especially to a more challenging path, based on the inspiring actions of their neighbors, not on high theories and ideas. That is, most people change when they see high theories and ideas put into practice by a very few couragous people. That's a hard fact. "Inspiration" is what has always gotten people moving (or a gun).

Swan song or renaissance is a matter of attitude. Only one attitude, when tempered by reality, will move the people. The people already don't care, so the threat of loosing Irish won't move them to action. Therefore you have to inspire that care within them.

>>Join the club, David. There's a lot of alienation and soul searching these days. Don't let the malaise of this time defeat the desires to promote Irish.

It can be shocking to see people openly undermining the Gaeltacht. I was flabbergasted on Oileán Chléire to note just how many English people (not Irish people speaking English, but English people) there were living permanently on the island - none of them with any intention of learning any Irish. It seems totally cheeky. Yes, you are right Seánw - it is easy to reach for the coercive option - of saying they shouldn't be allowed to be there. But I still wanted to ask them, "What are you doing here?"

They probably see that most of the Irish locals don't speak the language regularly anymore, so why should they make the effort? I doubt the decline of Irish on Cléire was caused by English homeowners.

And it should be said, the most enthusiastic people I met when I was there were the couple who run the hostel. A man originally from Wexford (but who spent time in England) and his English wife. I think she was from Sheffield?

The group most responsible for undermining Irish and the Gaeltacht over the past century or so are Irish people themselves. Usually locals. Not English, not Americans, not Poles.

You'll never know, since there is a threat to Gaeilge, there might just an insurgence (a gradual one) of irish people wanting to learn there mother tongue as illustrated in the other Celtic Nations. Besides, even if the language dies out it can still be revived thanks to decades of literature, audio recordings, tv and radio archives, newspaper archives, srl. Smaonaigh faoin sin.

Danny makes some very good points about our own indifference and apathy.And yes,Risteard agus Sinéad are a lovely couple,taking a great interest in Gaeilge out on Oileán Chléire.You can probably sense the 'but'coming along......


Last time I was there the general store 'An siopa beag' was being run by a couple from the north of England.I couldn't get a room in the hostel run by Risteard & Sinéad and my B&B was run by a South African lady.All fine folk too,but it cut down my chances to be a'caint as Gaeilge.

A while back I met an English guy who told me -very proudly - that his house, near clondrohid,Co Cork,was in the Gaeltacht.

'Didn't know it was Irish speaking' I replied.'Oh yeah, they all spoke it when i first came in the 70s and my kids had to learn it at school.It's dying out now ,thank God'

That was my first experience of 'Cognitive Dissonance'.But I think he was more confused than me!Ar an taobh eile ,I know an Irish guy who moaned like hell about his neighbours in Gwynedd speaking Welsh.Would to God we were more like our Welsh cousins.

Some nice fiction there, it would make a good book.

i agree with elements and some of the replies, they should increase all schools to Gaelscoileanna as fast as they can fill the posts available. increasing support should be given to the Gaeltacht's to maintain it as the everyday language but the fact is you cant tell people what to do, they have a right to live their life whatever way they want, they aren't there for the rest of our entertainment

Interesting someone mentioned (jokingly) about the hitting with the sticks to any child speaking English, but thats exactly what the schools did in the 1800's to any child caught speaking Irish, and that worked pretty well in instilling English in the people.

While my first reaction is 'what a load insanity' this article is, the fact is if Irish was introduced with the same vigor it was taken, we might actually get somewhere, so while I dont agree with most of the article I cant help but feel a tougher stance needs to be taken in regards to Irish

@macdara, that breaks my heart when I hear of people talking like that re: the englishman in Clondrohid

Remember you'll catch more with a spoonful of honey than a barrel of vinegar.

There are some things about Irish and those speaking it and learning it and interested in it that amaze me. There is a wide spectrum of knowledge of Irish throughout the population and indeed throughout the diaspora. It ranges from "My granny knew Irish I wish I did" through to those who can use the "cúpla focal" and then right up the scale of fluency to those who speak it fluently and can read and write Irish. In parts of the area called "gaeltacht" it is the community language and can be heard in the Church, the pub, the shop, the school, and the Garda Station. Unfortunately in "the hall" at a public meeting if one "very important person who knows no Irish" (VIPWKNI) is present everyone feels constrained to speak English. Hence if visitors chance upon such a meeting they come away with the notion that "no one speaks Irish there". Ergo: Irish is dead.

The situation is far more complex. There is an educated strand of Irish society who can speak Irish well and they are to be found everywhere. They are not sufficiently numerous to create an Irish-speaking enclave but they exist and use the language. More and more of them support the Gaelscoil movement.

Learners who approach such people, fluent speakers of Irish with an excellent knowledge of the grammar and literature, with the question "But are you a native speaker?" are likely to give offence and immediately shut down any chance they might have had to exchange a few sentences in Irish with a good Irish speaker. All the emphasis on seeking out a "native speaker" is likely to curtail the average learners career in using Irish or in getting anyone to speak or listen to.

Obviously if you are a linguist seeking to add to the sum of human knowledge by all means you should get other Irish scholars to introduce you to the best remaining native speakers of particular dialects. For the rest of us however who just want to cheer ourselves up by making contact with others having a similar interest to ourselves that question is best left unasked.

Irish people are happy to support and promote Irish without compulsion, punishment, or hatred. There's enough of that in other parts of the world "known to us all!" The Gaelscoil movement is succeeding and it is voluntary. Parents are not compelled to send their children to a Gaelscoil.

Now we need a similar Irish-language movement for the teens to twenties age group and another for adults.

The more "ócáidí" where Irish can be spoken the better. "Cumann Merriman" is good but you'd need a Ph.D. in Comparative Opacity to be welcome there. The Oireachtas brings native speakers and fluent learners together each year. An Cairdinéal Ó Fiach used organise pilgrimages to Gaelscrínte i gCéin and anywhere he went he attracted crowds of Irish-speakers to follow him. What is there for the ordinary Seán and Síle Citizen?

Each generation of youngsters must find their own way of enjoying Irish. The older generations can help with money and encouragement: GAA clubs for example could do more and there is need for a dedicated Irish language centre in each region if not in every major town. Could the Orange Order and the Freemasons provide a template?

The one essential is that it be appealing, enjoyable, rewarding, and voluntary.

Quote: And when I was in Cork city - nice city though it was - it struck me as not being very distinct from an English city. I didn't feel abroad there. In a bookshop, I asked about Irish language books, to be told "there might be some in the foreign language section". I asked, "is Irish a foreign language then?"

David W. With all due respects to your obvious love and command of the Irish language, I think you are being a bit too harsh on Cork, city and county. I just don't know where you're coming from when you say 'you didn't feel abroad there'.
Why would anyone interested in books 'as gaeilge' hand them into a second-hand store? I have books that have been handed down in my extended family and I certainly wouldn't part with them. I am confident that those to whom I will be leaving them will keep on that tradition in my family.
You obviously didn't look in Liam Ruiséal Teo, 49-50, Oliver Plunkett St, Cork for Irish language books. If you looked in Easons, Waterstones, then you most likely drew a blank. So whats new?
I generally don't buy into these sorts of arguements/discussions on daltai or anywhere else. I can see the good and bad points about my home town but at the end of the day 'the savage loves his native shore'. There is great work going on in Cork, city and county to promote our native language (as indeed there is around the country)in spite of the odds. I'll leave it at that.
DMD

A macfhearghail,the weird thing about the man from Clondrohid was that he understood the 'cachet' having a place in the Gaeltacht brought with it.Maybe too it added somewhat to the potential selling price of the house,at least during the boom.I was thus unprepared for his next comment.

A Danny,Janet/Sinéad had quite a strong west country - eg Devon/Cornwall accent when I met her.


I'd like to second DMD especially regarding Liam Russell teo.A great shop for Irish books.

quote:

I love bookshops and shopping for books was a crushing disappointment in County Cork. I imagined I might walk into a secondhand bookshop and find hundreds of books in seanchló, just waiting to be scooped up by yours truly. But in fact - donas an sgéil ar fad - you could have got more Irish-language books in the secondhand bookshops in London - at least you could have got some, which is more than the zero available in Cork!

I'm afraid that is my fault, David, as I snapped up six or seven of those I saw during my last visit. I had no idea they were the last secondhand Irish books in all Cork or I'd have left you one.

quote:

I was flabbergasted on Oileán Chléire to note just how many English people (not Irish people speaking English, but English people) there were living permanently on the island - none of them with any intention of learning any Irish. It seems totally cheeky.

I know many here wouldn't agree but I firmly believe the right to settle in a Gaedhealtacht area should be restricted to people who can speak the language and make clear their intention to use it.
Such an area could, in fact, be extended beyond the boundaries of present Gaedhealtachtaí into adjacent, sparsely populated areas to encourage settlement by Irish speakers into them.
I really don't see how this puts anyone out - the Gaedhealtachtaí are a relatively small part of the country.
If Nigel from Dublin 4 can't get permission to build his dream holiday home overlooking the Atlantic in a certain location because he has no intention of using the local vernacular all he has to do is travel a few miles up the road to an English speaking area.

quote:

A while back I met an English guy who told me -very proudly - that his house, near clondrohid,Co Cork,was in the Gaeltacht.

'Didn't know it was Irish speaking' I replied.'Oh yeah, they all spoke it when i first came in the 70s and my kids had to learn it at school.It's dying out now ,thank God'

That man is filth. A 20th century planter.

quote:

there is need for a dedicated Irish language centre in each region if not in every major town. Could the Orange Order and the Freemasons provide a template?

Minus the mumbo-jumbo element of the above organisations that's a good idea. A focal point for Irish language and cultural activity in communities.
I think membership would need to be kept relatively small - restricted to people with real ability in the language and, perhaps, knowledge of Irish Gaelic culture.
If membership of such an organisation became desirable in the community it would be yet another incentive for people to take up the language.

I looked in Liam Ruiséal (as the shop is not officially called) - and there were almost no Irish books there. None in the second hand section upstairs, and a few CO book downstairs. I was specifically looking for antiquarian book in sean-chló.

I am purchasing all I can online - while giving Dublin Bookbrowsers a wide berth! I recently purchased Fir Mhóra an tSean-Phobail (1941 Waterford) for $24 -while Dublin Bookbrowsers were offering it for $186.

quote:

Interesting someone mentioned (jokingly) about the hitting with the sticks to any child speaking English, but thats exactly what the schools did in the 1800's to any child caught speaking Irish, and that worked pretty well in instilling English in the people.

Exactly, that's why I mentioned it.

Interesting article here:

"Some kind of gibberish": Irish-speaking children in the National Schools, 1850-1922.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/%22Some+kind+of+gibberish%22:+Irish-speaking+child ren+in+the+National...-a093027778

quote:

A Danny,Janet/Sinéad had quite a strong west country - eg Devon/Cornwall accent when I met her.

Now I remember. My bad. I think it was Devon now that you mention it.

Those who would advocate a policy of excluding non-Irish speakers from moving into the Gaeltacht need to consider the reality that the majority of current Gaeltacht residents do not speak Irish. What should be done with them? The only way such a policy could even be contemplated imho would be to redraw the Gaeltacht borders. Something that has supposedly been in the works since 2003. And still we wait. The only areas where this would still be feasible would be so-called Area A Gaeltachtaí (proposed by NUI Galway...Area A, B, C) like Inis Meáin, Ceantar na nOileán, Camus, Gort a' Choirce and a handful of other regions. In other words, places where Irish is still widely spoken across all age groups (although less so amongst the younger age cohorts).

"Here's another idea: beatings with tally sticks for anyone speaking English!"


hey, don't knock it...it worked last time =P j/k

Actually the tally sticks were a consequence, not a cause, of parents feeling their children would be better off without Irish.

'Bhfuil tú ag cnuastóireacht, a David, nó i do léitheoir cíocrach?

Táim féin idir eatarthu. Is mó mo spéis i dtéacs ná i leabhar, ach bainim pléisiúr áirithe as na leabhra a bheith i mo ghlaic agam freisin. Cheannaigh mé sean-Bhíobla Bhedel ón Astráil le déanaí bíodh is go raibh teacht agam air i bhfoirm PDF ó chianta.

Tá sé iontach baolach a bheith leabharbhách, nach bhfuil!

Tá an ceart agaibh, a Aonghuis agus a Abigéil, is leabharbhách mé, ach ní fhéadaim á thuiscint, cár imigh na seanaleabhair Gaelainne go léir? Cad 'na thaobh go bhfeictear chomh hannamh san ar díol iad? Táim ag cnuastóireacht na seanaleabhar, mar a dúraís, ach táim ceapaithe ar iad a léamh céim ar chéim fé mar atá a dhóthain aimsire agam chuige. Is féidir libh líosta mo leabhar a fheiscint ar http://www.corkirish.com/wordpress/archives/691 - mar a bhfuil "HARD COPY" scríofa in aice an leabhair, tá sé ceannaithe agam cheana féin. Is é an leabhar is áille a cheannaíos le déanaí ná cóip "Blátha an Bhóithrín" ag Seán Tóibín ó Ghaeltacht Phórt Lairge. A Abigéil, an airís riamh teacht thar "Leath-bhliain san Eilbhéis" ag Oisín Ó Siochfhradha? Scríofa in 1951, is dialann turais go hEilbhéis é, agus b'fhéidir go mbeadh suim agatsa ann...

(Message edited by david_w on April 09, 2010)

quote:

Cad 'na thaobh go bhfeictear chomh hannamh san ar díol iad?

Toisc, go hiondúil, go bhfanann siad san teaghlach a cheannaigh iad.

(Message edited by aonghus on April 09, 2010)

The key(good) point made here has got lost in the fascist language of force.

You cannot force anyone to learn Irish, but you can make it attractive.

The key point in "David W"'s rant was the concentration of resources, and allowing for public use of Irish.

The main problem with Irish is not the low numbers of people able to speak the language (because it is not that low really), rather it is the fact that the language is not spoken in public. The idea of concentrating on an area is good. Incentivisation, not threats is the key.

There is no point in paying people because they CAN speak Irish. The reward has to be for public USE of Irish. I would be in favour of scrapping PRSI (whilst still giving the benefits) for both employers PRSI and employees PRSI in shops, restaurants etc for all front of house employees in a defined geographic area. This would be in circumstances where Irish is the language used between staff, and with the public, unless the customer wants to use english.

This would give Gaelgoirí the opportunity to use Irish publically. A lower rate of VAT on purchases through Irish, whilst difficult to enforce, might be a good incentive for customers to use Irish. Some arrangement for large stores to have some benefit from having customer service desks available in Irish could work also.

Daithí

I am afraid Daithí, I turned off after the word "fascist" - it is a catch-all term of abuse for anything someone doesn't like.

David,

Much of your post could have been taken directly out of a Ailtirí na hAiséirghe pamphlet from the 1940s! It was a fascist organisation founded by gaeilgeoirí in 1942. Gearóid Ó Cuinneagáin. Breandán Ó hEithir (Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, Comhar, RTÉ) was a supporter. Ernest Blythe (Irish Volunteers, IRB, Conradh na Gaeilge) too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailtirí_na_hAiséirghe

Daithí's comment isn't out of line.

quote:

No one not fluent in Irish would be permitted to move to the DGA area - ever.

quote:

The University itself is a Gaeltacht and all staff including administrators and cleaners are required to operate in Irish. Speaking English is gross misconduct, resulting in dismissal.

quote:

Public protests against the monoglot Irish policy in the DGA become a criminal offence - if you don't like it, leave.

Ailtirí na hAiséirghe actually went one further and proposed that the speaking of English in public be a criminal offence!

Danny agus David , in the words of the 'Scousers' - Harry Enfield 'Calm down! calm down!'


A good book about the Language issue and Aiséiri is The Speckled People by Hugo Hamilton.His Da forbid the use of English in the house.With the best intentions he caused his children a lot of grief as they lived in Dublin.Brilliantly written,from a child's viewpoint and very poignant.


Hamilton was on some late night tv show a while back.Of course the other panellists seized gleefully on his book as an example of all that was wrong about Ireland before the sainted Celtic Tiger.

But then the author went 'off message' and said that Irish speakers are now discriminated against in many subtle ways.He described this process as 'soft xenophobia'.The presenter managed to shut him up by quickly asking supplementary questions and - before the poor guy had a chance to reply - turning to the other panellists.Phew,that was a close one.Perhaps some other writer could develop this theme?

I have a couple of ideas:

1) Why not reward diaspora who reach a certain level of Irish by granting them Irish Citizenship? It could be set up where they/we could pass a certain level of conversation and written exam to qualify. It would promote tourism, interest, etc .

2) Irish speakers must speak Irish to their children. I was in Tyrone last week and met a native speaker from Galway (she's a 30ish) mother of two. She goes to Monaghan every day to teach in an Irish school, yet speaks English to her kids. I asked her why and she said, "I haven't started yet, but I really need to do that very soon". If Irish is important to people, then they should speak it to their children. One child is 5 and one is 2. I encouraged her to just begin speaking to the 2 year old and the 5 year old would want to get into the conversation. If I had known ANY Irish when my children were little I would have spoken it to them. I did so with Spanish and now my 25yr old daughter is near fluent and my 21 yr old son is learning. He remembers things from childhood.

These are just a cúpla smointe,
Faberm

Danny2007, I already said to Seánw that I was just daydreaming about a plan for Irish (the other daydream, which won't happen either is the state setting up a new town of 10,000 - designed for 100% Irish services from the outset - but people wouldn't have to move there if they didn't want to). Someone called Daithí just wanted to restart the debate.

I've never heard of Ailtirí na hAiséirghe before. How significant was this organisation? What is the definition of the word "fascist"? Did this organisation advocate genocide? I don't think so, so I am not sure about the relevance of such words.

We must remember that Irish has been supplanted by English by its being the only language that is necessary. Most of what I said - and get this! - is actually how English has replaced Irish. The Language Act is a recent thing, and for a long time, you actually had to speak English to get state services in Ireland - and for a long time there was no TG4. Actually the state bureaucrats had to speak Irish up to the 1970s - but they have dispensed with that!

Danny, you pick up on my "fascist" policies:

1. no one not fluent Irish to move to the Gaeltacht - well everyone studies Irish in school and I have been flabbergasted by the sight of English people in the Gaeltacht. Actually there are new houses in Coolea, inhabited by people with no Irish, so those people are actually sabotaging the Gaeltacht - they don't have to go there. Actually if the Gaeltacht is not for Irish speakers only and is not ruled exclusively in Irish, then the concept is compromised.

2. A university all in Irish. This idea is of an "institutional Gaeltacht". An education organisation all in Irish, with all staff required to speak Irish. People would not need to apply for employment in it if they didn't want to speak Irish. Isn't the Údarás an "institutional Gaeltacht"?

3. Well, yes, I overstepped the mark by saying public protests against Irish should be a criminal offence in the DGA. I admitted this in my post on 7 April three days ago. Daithí wanted to go back to the conversation of 7 April.

But I repeat: without insisting on Irish in certain areas, the language is going nowhere. Don't tell me it will survive as the Caighdeán Oifigiúil after the Gaeltacht has gone. I don't believe there will be political support for the teaching of Irish when there is no longer a single village that speaks it.

not so. David W makes some good poimts about concentration of resources. I was not calling David W a fascist. I was saying that the language of coercion cloaked some good ideas. delete the word "fascist" from your mind and read on.

Daithí, thank you for your post! Yes, I like the idea of eliminating PRSI. I think maybe a new town founded with government support for Irish speakers could be free of PRSI. It would be an interesting approach.

No offence David W, but eliminating PRSI for a small number of shops, resaurants and other businesses which are open to the public, is an achievable aim. A new town for 10,000 is not. Better take small steps than none at all.

Life is too short for arguments with people I don't know, so
I'll retire from this one graciously.


Daithí

(Message edited by admin on April 11, 2010)

I would support "an .... organisation to run all in Irish" We already have many of those in the Gaelscoileanna.

We don't have many others outside the sphere of education and the media and we should. Now that the State is aquiring property of all kinds from banks and developers there is an opportunity for imaginative Irish language organisations to get the use of luxury hotels to create centres of Irish in many parts of the country.

Think of it. A residential course for adults in the Tip-top Hotel of the area of your choice. A bit like the Ashokan Centre in New York only with an Irish-speaking staff.

How about "one year of national service through Irish" before going into employment or on to further education?

Another idea would be our heritage. Create pageants in Irish in the old castles and in yet to be constructed old villages that would show life in earlier times -- as Gaeilge. Insist on employing Irish-speakers.

Does Gael-linn still do its business through Irish? All of it?

A problem with getting Irish-speakers to do menial jobs is that most of today's Irish-speakers have university degrees and would treat manual or menial work with distain. They want to be on television or in print or at the top of the classroom or lecture hall.

We need a system that would operate thuas seal thíos seal -- like the kibbutzim. Tabhair bliain de do shaol don Ghaeilge. Ní dhearúdfaidh tú choíche é.

Unfortunately businesses that start off with the best of intentions to use Irish soon find -- if they are successful -- that they can make serious money working in the other language and they gradually leave the idealism of their youth behind them...

I would like a residential course for adults. The Gaeltacht currently caters solely to children - logical in the context of the national education system where everyone studies Irish at school, but less useful for me!

When I was studying Russian at school I heard of an Orthodox monastery in Paris where all the monks spoke Russian all day - and it is possible to stay there and brush up your Russian.

Can you imagine if the Ministry opened a residential school on the Great Blasket, open all year round, for adults (and children as well), with all staff speaking Irish and lessons and activities available also in Irish. It would be great.

quote:

I've never heard of Ailtirí na hAiséirghe before. How significant was this organisation?

It was significant enough to win council seats and receive over 10,000 first preference votes in the mid 1940s. The 1945 local elections, if I recall correctly. It faded in the late 50s. It was a fascist party. Its sympathies were with the Axis powers in WWII. It sought to create a one-party, totalitarian state.

Only last year, a man named R. M. Douglas released a book called "Architects of the Resurrection:
Ailtirí na hAiséirghe and the Fascist ‘New Order’ in Ireland". It's a fascinating read.
http://www.manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk/catalogue/book.asp?id=1204397

quote:

no one not fluent Irish to move to the Gaeltacht - well everyone studies Irish in school and I have been flabbergasted by the sight of English people in the Gaeltacht. Actually there are new houses in Coolea, inhabited by people with no Irish, so those people are actually sabotaging the Gaeltacht - they don't have to go there.

And I say again, you can't prevent people from moving in when most of the locals don't speak Irish habitually. FFS! Most people in Cúil Aodha don't speak Irish and it was like that before the big immigration wave hit. You can't blame outsiders for not having a sense of urgency for learning IRish when many of the local residents themselves don't (or won't) use it with them. I imagine many go out of their way to use only English with newcomers, even one with some Irish.

quote:

But I repeat: without insisting on Irish in certain areas, the language is going nowhere. Don't tell me it will survive as the Caighdeán Oifigiúil after the Gaeltacht has gone. I don't believe there will be political support for the teaching of Irish when there is no longer a single village that speaks it.

It's too late for that. It's too late to insist on anything. But it's not too late to stabilize Irish in the fíor-ghaeltacht, in my opinion. Coercion has failed, that much is clear. I'm always surprised when people say "when the Gaeltacht is gone". Who said that the outcome is pre-determined? If people in the Gaeltacht want to keep Irish then they'll keep Irish alive. English and English speaking newcomers aren't a new phenomenon.

If the will to keep Irish alive in the community is there then it will remain. No amount of English or english speakers alone can change that. If there is enough pride and perseverance in Irish then it will withstand all the forces massed against it. I see no reason why Irish can't continue to survive in the Gaeltacht. It comes down to will. Like that native speaking woman from Galway who hasn't started speaking Irish to her children. That's her loss. She has an opportunity most Irish people in 2010 don't have, yet it seems she may not make the most of it? Replicate that situation a few hundred or few thousand times and then you see the real cause of decline. There's nothing stopping a mother with fluent Irish from using the language with her child. If they choose not to, then it's just not a priority for them and that's all there is to it. Blame the native speakers who are throwing the language away. Don't blame people from England or Poland or Dublin.

I am not sure that "most people in Cúil Aodha don't speak Irish". The Gort na Tiobratan division (= Cúil Aodha) has around 40% daily speakers of Irish - but less frequent speakers probably bring the total above 50%. The Church is all in Irish. I am not sure what the impact of the lack of facilities in Cúil Aodha is. There is no shop, no post office and no pub. While people do speak Irish in their homes, you would need to know them to know that, as there is no "public square" or place where you meet them (other than the Church and the schools). Granted, the facilities are in Baile Bhúirne, not too far away. Would a pub in Cúil Aodha bring the Irish speakers together and create a public arena where Irish was heard, or would it have a weakening affect, attracting non-Irish-speaking workers to the village? Another of my daydreams is opening an Irish-speaking pub in Cúil Aodha...

Ar aghaidh leatsa!

Of course significant amounts of monolingual English speakers can change the language of an area in one generation. It's happened in Wales where English has replaced Welsh in some previously Welsh speaking areas in the local school, the community council, pub etc. Dún Chaoin is an example of unrestricted development of holiday homes to the point there are more holiday homes there than fulltime residents. Lots of strangers living in a Gaeltacht area is going to change the language dynamic in the local school, GAA club, soccer club, community council and pub. As the native Irish speakers have to deal with these people every day invariably they will speak English to them andthen speak English to other Irish speakers. I agree with Taidhgín and David _w that a year round residential course is important. As for setting up a town of 10,000 Irish speakers why can't Dublin try and set up an Irish speaking neighbourhood now that would be eminently possible.

I think Danny2007 could very well be right. Perhaps it IS the native people who are throwing away the language. They have the ability to put signs in their shops, actively try to speak Irish to any and all who will give it a go,etc. Many of the people that I discuss speaking Irish with in Ireland just sort of give me a weird reaction...sort of like they don't want to speak the little they can speak.

I bought a little pin in Doire at the Culturann that says "Cupla Focal" on it. The idea is to put it on and then others who see it might speak to you in Irish. There is also a small fainne that is silver that the shopkeeper told me is to be worn if you're an intermediate speaker. And then there's the gold fainne that is to be worn by more fluent speakers.

I thought that was a great idea. The idea won't work however if learners and other speakers don't give it a go. The question is whether native speakers would even recognize it and help the learner.

Just a couple of thoughts,
Faberm

quote:

why can't Dublin try and set up an Irish speaking neighbourhood

Yes and no. The authorities would be terrified of being accused of "apartheid" and "linguistic segregation" if not "racial segregation."

Already in Dublin one has only to mention the names of particular suburbs to conjure up images of the communities who live there.

For example

Area AAA has wealthy communities with big houses, posh cars, and old money. Not much interest in Irish there.

Area BBB are not so wealthy but own their own homes and worked in the professions and the Civil Service. Lots of Irish there due to their rural origins and their educatioon.

Area CCC consists mostly of social housing. Not very much private housing. Poor school attendance, unemployment, etc. Great enthusiasm among a minority for the Irish-medium school partly to enable their children to achieve objectives the parents missed out on and especially to get away from the downward peer-pressure of many of the others in the neighbourhood.

Area DDD is comprised mostly of newly-built but not yet paid for apartment blocks as well as social and private housing. Large numbers of new-Irish are accommodated there and the sudden pressure on schools has caused consternation in the Department of Education and has forced the Catholic Church to admit that there is no point in it setting up Catholic schools in areas where most of the population are either non-catholic or lapsed.

Now where might you think of setting up an Irish-speaking neighbourhood?

Irish is strongest where-ever Irish-medium schools are already successfully established. I think the only way to establish an Irish-speaking suburb is to establish some other language-centred businesses and services in these areas and to promote regular "ócáidí" (events) to involve the teens and twenties.

The most important thing is to keep the "mugadh magadh merchants" away i.e. those who will take the grant for the promotion of Irish and spend very little on Irish itself but run activities mostly through English. Bilingualism? Good for the community but of little value in creating an Irish-speaking environment. On the other hand the presence of the polyglot immigrant community has made it easier for Irish-speakers to gain recognition.

>>>there is no point in it setting up Catholic schools in areas where most of the population are either non-catholic or lapsed.

Er... they could always integrate into Irish culture?

I better start going to mass and integrate into Irish culture myself one of these days.

I have a silly story about the problems of being a lapsed catholic in a part Dublin where there is very little choice as to the patronage of the school you send your child to. This conversation took place recently in Irish between myself and my daughter.

Iníon: Bhí muid ag caint ar scoil inniú faoi Noah agus a bhád. An bhfuil an scéal sin fíor?
Athair: Measann a lán daoine go bhfuil ach b'fhéidir go bhfuil teachtaireacht éigin ann ar aon nós. Bhí beirt ainmhí de gach cineál ann - mamaí crogall agus daidí crogall, cur i gcás. Cén fáth?
Iníon: Ní gá le crogaill dul ar an mbád - tá snámh maith acú.
Athair (ag gaire): Drochshampla b'fhéidir! Sioráf?
Iníon: Bhí an uisce an ard, más gá le sioráf dul ar an mbád.
Athair: Sin an fhirinne!

Hmm... cén fáth níor bhuail Noah na muiscítí?