When you're writing:

"..which Rónán is after sending to him"

using 'cur ag'

is it

"atá Rónán tar éis a chur aige"

or

"atá Rónán tar éis cur aige"

Usually after 'tar éis' it is the infinitive -verbal noun- you use yeah? But with the extra 'aige' I'm not sure do I need to add the 'a' particle and if I need the séimhiú?

Hope someone can help! Thanks a mil.

Here is the form you are looking for:

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/verbnom1.htm#tareis

and

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/verbnom1.htm#verlPerfekt

Now I would use chuig with this one, so it would be:

... atá Rónán tar éis a chur chuige.

I think only "atá Rónán tar éis a chur chuige" (or "aige" in Connemara, parts of Ulster) is correct.

Thanks Seán.
Why 'chuig' though? In Conamara they tend to use 'ag' instead of 'chuig' (I saw on another thread a while ago that Lughaidh said ag derives from chuig, I think Ó Siadhail says this too). Ah then again I did say I was 'writing' this in which case 'chuig' yes I agree :P

Okay.. so going with 'atá Rónán tar éis a chur aige/chuige'

As it's the relative and if it was a feminine noun like 'litir' Rónán had sent would it then be:

"atá Rónán tar éis a cur aige/chuige"

As litir is fem. then no séimhiú? Or would you always need the séimhiú?

I think you've misunderstood the origins of the a in this sentence. It's not the third-person possessive adjective, it's a worn-down form of the preposition do. This is clear from the non-relative equivalents of these sentences:

Tá Rónán tar éis é a chur aige/chuige.
Tá Rónán tar éis í a chur aige/chuige.

What happens with the relative is that the object gets "extracted" and placed at the front of the clause. So the leniting a remains even though in other contexts it wouldn't be necessary (e.g. Bhí sé tar éis cur isteach ar chead pleanála).

At least that's my understanding of the grammar principles involved. I'm sure Ó Siadhail has more.

In written Irish a distinction is made between den and don even though in some Connacht dialects neither word is heard. Something like "gun" or "dhon" is used for both, in speech.

Similarly the words "ig" and "g" and "ag" etc are heard in speech where in writing you would be expected to distinguish between "chuig" and "ag".

I have always believed it better to learn the written language, i.e. An Caighdeán Oifigiúil, as well as your chosen dialect. Writing words like "fáirnis" instead of "faisnéis;" "muirilte" instead of "muinchille" or "cileán" instead of "cineál" is of little help to the many learners who want to pass their Leaving Cert in Irish.

In Ulster chuige is cut off too (and maybe everywhere?). Writing it out, I would use chuige.

a chur is the infinitive, if you have a direct object, you place it before it, like Domhnaillín said.

Thanks for the examples , can see now why the séimhiú will always be there.

Yep my own approach has been to learn CO and Conamara together- it's confusing, sometimes slow, but it's every bit worth the effort. I'm only 9 months learning so hopefully I'll get the balance right in time.

Since there's no Leaving Cert in my future and never will be, I'm focused on acquiring active knowledge of Munster Irish and passive knowledge of the other dialects (including CO). The only time this really causes difficulties for me is when trying to help other learners who only understand CO. (I've been warned by more advanced learners that "If you really want to be taken seriously, you have to use CO", but I haven't reached that point in my correspondence yet.)

"If you really want to be taken seriously, you have to use CO"

I wouldn't be taking a statement like that seriously that's for sure!

Unlike English there is no such thing as poorly written Irish in my opinion (i.e. when written by native speakers with their correct spellings and grammar relevant to their dialect), so if a native speaker writes 'aige' instead of 'chuige' I wouldn't blink an eyelid at it. Though I would make an effort at this point to write 'chuige' myself just as I am not a native speaker. And to be honest that is how I learned the 'cur ag' phrase- a teacher I had last summer wrote it in an email to me, and this is a native speaker from Indreabhán whose Irish I would find hard to parallel!

The only enemy of Irish is this 'pidsean' stuff coming up.. that's what worries me about the future of Irish.

If it's "litir" then it would be:

An litir atá Rónán tar éis a chur chuige. The "a" here isn't a possessive so "cur" is lenited even if "litir" is feminine. It is a preposition, the same as in the sentence "Cad é atá tú a dhéanamh?", ie. the preposition "a" that you use before the verbal noun when the objects if before it.

However you can also say this :
An litir a bhfuil Rónán tar éis a cur chuige.
Here "a" is the possessive (then see that you use "a bhfuil" instead of "atá").

Thanks Lughaidh. I'm still a bit confused though. Why does "a bhfuil" make the "a" possessive instead of a preposition? Is it anything to do with "a bhfuil" being used in the indirect relative maybe?

A Shinéad, that's exactly it. Compare these two versions with the simple past:

An litir a chur Rónán chuige.
An litir ar chur Rónán chuige í.

In the first case, you have a direct relative clause. In the second, the relative clause is indirect, and so requires a resumptive pronoun. In the case of "An litir a bhfuil Rónán tar éis a cur chuige", this resumptive pronoun is possessive (i.e. a) rather than accusative due to the nature of the infinitive construction.

Aye, it's the use of the possessive that triggers the use of the indirect relative (ie. "a bhfuil" and not the direct relative "atá").

Thanks so much for the explanations! I've written this up in my grammar folder and understand the gist of it.

Can't say I'd even heard of a "resumptive pronoun" before now though !

It is also called a back-referencing pronoun (forainm iartheachtach).

"An litir atá seolta ag Rónán chuige."

=the letter thats been posted by Ronan to him?


An féidir leat é sin a rá, a shaoithe?

How rare are sentences like:

*An litir a bhfuil Rónán tar éis a cur chuige.
*An litir ar chur Rónán chuige í.

I can't find a single example in my electronic files of Munster Irish. Granted, it is hard to search for, but I looked at all instances of "ar" followed by a verb. Looking at all instances of "a" followed by a verb would take longer, as the examples would be too numerous.

Part of the reason for these types of indirect relative clauses are the ambiguity of "An fear a bhuail mé", which ambiguity can be cleared up by saying "an fear ar bhuail mé é", but then in Munster you can say "an fear a bhuaileas".

Are these types of constructions more common in Ulster?

quote:

I can't find a single example in my electronic files of Munster Irish.

Well you wouldn't, would you? Munster Irish marks the indirect relative with go/gur instead of a/ar.

Is fíor duit.

Cuireadh in iúl domsa (ar an bhfóraim so, ambaiste) go ndéarfá i ndordaireacht na Mumhan;

"An fear gur bhuail mé/bhuaileas é"

Measaimse.

are you sure about:

an fear gur bhuaileas é

I understood Domhnaillin reply as meaning that the munster use of go/gur obviated the need for the construction we are talking about.

To my mind the "é" at the end there is just a mistake

I was getting confused - yes, that's why I've never seen constructions of the type of "an fear ar bhuail mé é"

excuse my ignorance, what does dordaireacht mean?

I am looking for the clearest translation of the phrase "watched over" as in watched over by God. Similar ideas would be "cared for", or "in Gods hands" but I would prefer "watched over" if that translates clearly. I have gotten a number of different answers for this from other sources and would be very grateful if someone has an answer they feel confident in. Many thanks.

faoi choimirce Dé