Comments on the site pretty predictable. Pity. It is a good piece. May be more in the letters pages, hopefully with some depth.

It's a good article... negative comments don't surprise me. Part of the battle is re-educating some of these brainwashed twats away from their fake 'eastenders', 'jerry springer' culture.

We need an Irish language secret society ;0)

That is probably part of the problem. Irish language speakers in the Galltacht are pretty much a secret society, not from choice but from being ignored, and frequently only recognising each other by shibboleths!

Not sure that's what they'd call it in the Gaeltachts a Aonghuis.
According to wikipedia, Shibboleths can also be customs or practices, such as male circumcision.

I mean a secret society to promote the irish language and awareness of its history and culture not a society whose sole aim is to enslave the world in debt by turning countries into corporations that can be culturally liquidated.

Treise leat a Aonghuis, tá sé sin iontach tábhachtach, chomh maith le bheith iontach beacht agus an-dírithe.

Ní fios cén cíoradh a tharraingeoidh sé ar an gclár so. Beidh siad ag scríobh, rud ab annamh leo!

Asarlaí, people in the Gaeltacht know each other - they need no means of recognition. The point is that Irish outside, and even in weak Gaeltachts, can be invisible. Which is what reinforces the anglophone myths. What we need is not a secret society, but a more confident bunch of Irish speakers, inside and outside the Gaeltacht.

This article is one such sign. I hope to see more, and to see a real debate which moves beyond the usual "Irish is dead, no it isn't" spirals.

Comments pages in general can be a real mess. You can make multiple posts and pretend you're another person. Some people like to just stir the pot. I don't think they reflect a true panoramic view of opinion. Plus there are people who simply don't read online, or comment online. It is a false/incomplete picture.

quote:

What we need is not a secret society.

Yes! What we need is an out-in-the-open, everywhere-you-turn-is-another approach. The main problem now is that the Irish community is still "over there" or unknown to some people -- they see it having no connection to their lives. Often not knowing someone/something breeds a fear and prejudice. Soon if the Irish speaking kid is your neighbor, you may think it is great. You realize he isn't trying to rule your life, but just trying to give his language some legs. There needs to be more public awareness and presence. There needs to be more of a public view that it is related to their lives.

I'm glad to see an article like this in a major newspaper, although there is always a risk that some people will use it as 'evidence' that the battle to preserve Irish has been lost.

"Look, even the academic gaeilgeoirí are saying Irish is in trouble!" etc

When they talk of 'revising and strengthening' Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge, what did they suggest? I don't remember that part from the sociolinguistic report.

Hope to see some letters about this in the IT.

Page 539:

22.6.8 SCÉIM LABHAIRT NA GAEILGE
Moltar an scéim a leasú chun:
1. Go léireofaí do thuismitheoir(í) sula saolófaí a gcéad pháiste go mb’fhéidir leo clárú leis an scéim.
2. Go léireofaí céard iad na cleachtais teanga atá an scéim a mholadh.
3. Go mbeadh tréimhse na scéime teoranta do theaghlaigh a bhfuil leanaí acu san aoisghrúpa ó aois faoi bhun bliana go dtí seacht mbliana.
4. Gur féidir le teaghlaigh nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge ach ag duine amháin de na tuismitheoirí tairbhe a bhaint as an scéim, ar an tuiscint go bhfuil straitéis teanga oiriúnach á leanúint ag an teaghlach, .i. gur Gaeilge amháin a labhraíonn an tuismitheoir ag a bhfuil Gaeilge leis an gclann agus go dtacaíonn an tuismitheoir
eile leis an straitéis seo.
5. Go mbeadh na leanaí ag freastal ar sheirbhís cúram leanaí atá ag feidhmiú trí Ghaeilge go hiomlán sa chás go bhfuil an bheirt tuismitheoirí ag obair go lánaimseartha, nó sa chás nach é/í an tuismitheoir ag a bhfuil Gaeilge atá ag déanamh cúraim den chlann sa bhaile.
6. Go n-íocfaí deontas €5,000 in aghaidh na bliana ar feadh thréimhse na scéime, le gach teaghlach a chláraíonn faoin scéim chun cabhrú leo íoc as na costais chúram
leanaí atá i gceist nó chun cur ar chumas an tuismitheora ag a bhfuil Gaeilge aire a thabhairt don chlann sa bhaile.
7. Gur trí chuairteanna ar na teaghlaigh sa bhaile a dhéanfar measúnú ar éifeacht na
scéime.
Moltar go mbeadh gach teaghlach a bhfuil cónaí orthu laistigh de na limistéir éagsúla
Ghaeltachta i dteideal cur isteach ar scéim leasaithe SLG, ach nach gcuirfear as an
áireamh, de bharr aon athruithe a dhéanfaí ar na limistéir reachtúla amach anseo, aon
teaghlach atá i dteideal tairbhe a bhaint as an scéim reatha faoi láthair.

Are they suggesting that it's limited to families with children age 7 and below?

- Grants for naonraí

quote:

It is clear that a bilingual capacity is a positive personal asset. On the other hand, the promotion of bilingualism will erode the social use of Irish in the minority Gaeltacht community. Bilingual social practice is inherently problematic and disadvantageous for the minority language.

I think this is something that really needs to be addressed.

I am not certain if it is even possible to have a bilingual group of people. And it might be a waste of time to create that type of policy.

Yes, an individual can be bilingual. And yes, you can have a group of bilingual people. But can anyone think of an example where a group of bilingual people continually switch between languages equally and not begin to favor and use one language more than another?

If the goal is to truly strengthen the Irish language, then my personal belief is that an Irish only policy is going to be the only course of action. If you give English and Irish an equal standing, in an environment that is already English friendly or quickly becoming, people are going to use English first.

quote:

Are they suggesting that it's limited to families with children age 7 and below?

Yes. That is when the assistance is most needed and fruitful. The current scheme sets in too late - when speech habits are already formed and confirmed in school.

quote:

But can anyone think of an example where a group of bilingual people continually switch between languages equally and not begin to favor and use one language more than another?

Switzerland certainly comes close. I would think any border region would apply also. But favoring is hard to measure. I am of the view that one language is always primary, but not necessarily all the time. I do not think there is such a thing as true simultaneous bilingualism, but certainly some people get close to it. I think the best philosophy is to divorce English from the remnant psychology of it coming from English oppression and influence, and instead emphasize that it is the international language. As with any educated society, one has its native language, and one has the international language. Amongst yourselves you use the native language. With others you use the international one. This is how it should be approached in school, I think. It will take a long time, though, for this attitude to trickle down in society.

quote:

I think the best philosophy is to divorce English from the remnant psychology of it coming from English oppression and influence...

I will agree with this statement because this is something that I am guilty of myself. I have a hard time letting go of the past when I think about English/Irish language relations. I will agree that I must stop looking at the English language as "oppressing" Irish in the modern world because it is not. However, the relationship between the two is unique in it was the "oppressive" nature of the English which forced the dwindling down of Irish that we see today.

But since we all seem to agree that Irish is a living language here, let’s use a medical frame of reference.

Irish is very sick, it could be fatal. The doctors aren't certain because it is still a little too early to tell. All the doctors are pretty confident they know the cause of the disease (English in one form or another). But they would rather treat the symptoms of the disease because it is safer and easier to do than actually trying to treat the cause of the disease for the patient.

Their treatment of a bilingual Ireland has been the same since the 40's. And it hasn't gotten any better; instead Irish has been dying slowly and painfully. Like a cancer patient who was once big and strong but now nothing but a shell of their former glory.

It is good a dream. It is a noble dream. But it is only dream. If Irish is going to survive, and by some miracle grow in strength...it cannot, nor will not, be with a bilingual approach.

The reason that this bilingual approach continues to fail is that Ireland forgets that it is no longer a small semi-isolated island in the Atlantic. She is part of the new global community. Her people are looking out into the world and they are not seeing the Irish language. And why are not seeing it? Well, one major reason they are not seeing the Irish language is that when the world looks into Ireland, they are not seeing the Irish language.

The world will truly recognize the language, when Ireland truly recognizes the language.

And I should have clarified my statement about any bilingual question above...I apologize.

I meant can anyone think of a truly bilingual community where people use a minority language with equal standing?

In the article, I think this is the question the author was trying to bring up.

Situations like Switzerland, Montreal, the Texas border...you are going to find that bilingual communication is possible between two major languages. But when we are talking about speaking major languages such as Irish, or some Swiss regional dilact...they throw them out the window and use the more spoken major language instead. That's what I was getting at in my question.

A Sheáin, when you say "Switzerland", what are you thinking of exactly? It's certainly true among the German-speakers, who are in a stable diglossic situation (dialect in informal situations, Standard German in formal). But members of the different linguistic communities there don't actually mingle that much and, when they do, the lingua franca is likely to be English. (One of the most common complaints from French-speaking Swiss, for instance, is that the German they learn in school bears no resemblance to the Alemannic their neighbours actually speak.)

Paraguay would strike me as a better model if I knew more about it. From what I've read, knowledge of both Spanish and Guaraní is almost universal, despite the greater prestige of Spanish due to its international importance. Senegal is also a good example; practically the entire population is fluent in both French and Wolof and they mix them freely in everyday conversation, since using only "pure French" comes off as snobbish.

If I understood Seánw correctly...he was using Switzerland as an example of a community that is famous for its multi-linguistic flexibility because its borders force it to be able to deal quickly in French, German, Italian, and Swiss.

I wasn't very clear with my original question; I should have said something like "examples where minority languages are used equally among major languages instead of the major languages tending to taking over the minority language usage in the name of convenience."

I have no first hand experience, but Luxembourg seems to be an example where a minority language (Letzburgisch) competes on an almost equal footing with German and French.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=lu

Ah sweet Luxembourg,

I was hoping someone would bring them up. As they seem to the world's poster boy for multi-linguistic balance and harmony...LOL

They are not really as balanced as they say they are. If you look at the language distribution, what happens is that even though they have the ability to easily switch the three they don't do it. Instead, what you see is that certain languages dominate certain social areas.

Now, I will give them more credit than most. That I know of, their education system is the only system that accepts that in order to teach children to be multi-lingual, you have to use a unilingual approach.

Jan Ullrich tried this model with some success her Lakota language revival strategy. However, she ultimately began to see the same results that can be found in modern day Luxembourg. If I remember correctly, the model requires unilingual instruction for a period of time and then unilingual instruction in other language in order to establish an equal fluency.

For example...

A student’s education will be in the following order of languages:

Letzburgisch, German, French

Letzburgisch, French, German

But just like the children of the Lakota, what happens is that the first language tends to become the spoken or primary language of usage, while the other language tends to gravitate to some societal role or function.

For the Lakota, children were taught English then Lakota. English remained their primary language of usage, but an extreme increase in the use of Lakota started to develop among the communities such as signs in the Lakota language and literary works in the language increased.

When they switched the order to first Lakota and then English. As expected, the children started using Lakota as their spoken daily language, and a similar affect with English was seen. However, because of the English dominance in the US, the children quickly began to stop the use of Lakota and instead began to use English only right out of school.

There are now Lakota only schools, and they are seeing a massive increase and preference for the Lakota language by the children, but again as soon as they leave the Rez, or as often them “closed system” they are forced to conform to the majority because they are not recognized or respected.

If Ireland is going to push a bilingual policy on their people, there are plenty of ways to do it. But they have to stop this one step at a time method that they like to use so much and start calculating two or three steps ahead at all times.

Eabhrais agus Araibís?

Do chinnúint, I am beginning to think your handle ought to be written as one word - dochinnúint.

You seem to take a perverse pleasure from pointing out what won't work.

I for one would be delighted if we were - even in the Gaeltacht - anywhere near what Luxembourg has.

By the way, speaking from personal experience, what language I use depends heavily on the opportunity to use it.

My primary education was all Irish, secondary and third level all English, and my first professional years immersed in German.

Which I use now depends on what I am doing, and with whom. Opportunities to use Irish professionally are rare for an embedded software engineer. But in other areas of my life I use all three.

quote:

You seem to take a perverse pleasure from pointing out what won't work.

I take that as a compliment actually.

It is not a perversion, more and a natural talent for finding flaws. Also, policy and contract review is something a do quite a bit of these days...so it could be a bleed over from my professional life.

I honestly don't do it to belittle, rather I do it to strengthen or at least address what I believe to a question mark that could turn into a weakness.

And the sad truth is the entire Irish language situation is just filled with flaws and weaknesses in my opinion.

Now, I am not Irish. I am an outsider. I have no political pull, nor do I have the ability to direct anything one way or another. All I can do is bring the issues I feel need to be address to the attention of hopefully someone who does and is willing to listen to me.

If this gives me the title of "negative, critical, cynical, nay sayer" or any other bad name I am certain many here have called me...then I will wear this title with pride because it may not be much, but I am doing what I can to help.

Look, I have nothing but respect for those who are trying to do something for the language...even if I nay say it.

But the problem I have seen taken by Ireland is that when it comes to the policy, is that they are breaking the first rule of policy creation. You don't write a policy for the "moment." You write a policy for the moments that you can reasonably foresee coming.

And Ireland isn't doing this.

They are so busy trying to get new Irish speakers that they are not keeping the Irish speakers they have. And this is the real problem.

They don't have a "what next" concept built into their plan. All they are focusing on is how to increase their numbers in the future...they have completely overlooked the problem of once they get a new generation of speakers, they loose them because these people see and feel no practical purpose for the usage of the language.

If they want to increase in the numbers, and solidify the usage of the language in Ireland, they need a Irish only strategy. For all things. Ireland will adjust to the new Irish only groups coming in the future, and the world will adjust an Irish only Ireland.

How long are they going to keep trying to a strategy that has failed consistently for almost 70 years now? That's not nay saying...that is a plea for justification of logic. Because I understand it takes time, but how long are they going to wait before they except it isn't working?

Here's David Crystal's formula, taken from Wikipedia:

In his book 'Language Death' [he] proposes six factors which may help a language to progress. He postulates that an endangered language will progress if its speakers:

1. increase their prestige within the dominant community
2. increase their wealth
3. increase their legitimate power in the eyes of the dominant community
4. have a strong presence in the education system
5. can write down the language
6. can make use of electronic technology

Do_chinniúint,

how to be discerning without being discouraging has ever been the Irish language re-(sur)vivalists' version of the quadrature of the circle.

(Message edited by ormondo on December 30, 2009)

I think this strategy will work if your goal to increase the usage of the language within a defined border, such as a community or country.

Number 3 is what I am talking about...

Increase their legitimate power in the eyes of the dominant community.

He is talking about situation like a Gaeltacht or Reservation where the people within the community have enough pride in their language to fight for the recognition and acceptance by the rest of Ireland or the US.

But people are now responding to the pressures of a broader sense of worth, the global community.

What are the common complaints for being said about modern Irish?

You hear things like:

No one speaks Irish.
What's the point?
Everyone speaks English.
English is the global language, Irish is not.
English is the language of commerce and business.

Partially true, partially not. Depends on the context.

Blah blah blah...

This suggests that the Irish people are looking at how they are being seen in the world community, and they are not seeing a world accepting the Irish language. The world will not respect the language until the Irish demand it from them.

Ormondo,

I am not certain I fully undestand what you mean?

If you are implying that by the very act of discerning, one is discouraging, then I disagree.

But I am not certain if this is what you were implying?

The common complaint I hear from those who earnestly want to speak Irish is there are few opportunities to use it. If people had this, or knew how to get it, there may be less complaints about it being worthless. It would seem rather worthless to everyone but a linguist to learn a language to never use it.

quote:

I am not certain I fully undestand what you mean?

Perhaps, how to acknowledge the truth of the matter (to formulate the strategy) while not causing those in question be give up in defeat -- impossible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle

(Message edited by seánw on December 30, 2009)

LOL...

Why do I hear my father in my head laughing and saying "you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't." ;-)

well, trying to get at the heart of a bleak situation (even with areas of hope or small success) will always have one skirting discouraging territory.

"they have completely overlooked the problem of once they get a new generation of speakers, they loose them because these people see and feel no practical purpose for the usage of the language."

If Irish had a practical purpose...a real one that meant something to the Irish people...we wouldn't be having this discussion as the language would stabilize and grow on it's own. The government has to come up with plans and schemes to convince, cajole and/or browbeat people into using Irish because, at the end of the day, they really don't *have to* speak it.

They should be focusing their efforts on giving Irish a raison d'être that doesn't involve "pride," romanticism, or benefits-of-being-bilingual that could be had just as well or better from another *major* language.

If there were even one or two areas (dealing with the post office, for instance) the average Irishman encountered in their daily lives for which Irish was a necessity, people would be learning it and using it. Until it can be said that, "you can't X without Irish" of at least one thing meaningful to a broad swath of Irishmen, then this is a losing battle. Once such a statement can be truthfully made, the language will be well on the road to recovery.

I am reminded by some of the above statements regarding speaker retention of the story of Sears, Roebuck and Co in the US. In 1965, it had 80% of the market and had driven its competitors out of business. The top 10% income bracket shopped at Nordstrom and Macy's, the lowest 10% at Two Guys and K-mart.

They became so obsessed with attracting new customers from the K-mart crowd (by adding cheap, low quality goods to their lines, decreasing focus on hardlines and increasing focus on softlines) that their "middle 80%" became disenchanted with the store. Slowly but surely, their base customers evaporated, competitors sprang up to chew up formerly Sears-dominated sectors (such as Home Depot for tools and Best Buy for electronics).

Today, K-mart (literally) owns Sears.

It does seem to me that the Irish government is making the same types of policy decision that Sears did (although with Irish not coming from an position of strength, making the decline in the face of competition much more swift).

Dunno how to do the quote thing, sorry.

"The common complaint I hear from those who earnestly want to speak Irish is there are few opportunities to use it."

I respectfully disagree. I have the opportunity every time I open my mouth.

There is a reason my dog will just politely wave her tail at you when you ask her if she "wants to go out?" But say to her "Ar mhaith leat dul amach?" and she goes ballistic and charges the back door...

When I say to my kids "gabh mo leithscéal, ach...." and I hear back "na bac leis" without them missing a beat...yes, these be my opportunities.

Apologies for the dodgy spelling...the point is you have the opportunity anytime you open your mouth. Some just choose not to avail themselves of it.

quote:

Thus, as a result of all these circumstances the present sociolinguistic situation of Catalonia is very complex. The situation of a people's language which has not achieved fully normal use and has a relatively small number of speakers in the international context coincides with the fact that the mother tongue of many citizens in the territory of Catalonia is Castilian, which they prefer to speak, and thanks to which they have often contributed significantly to enriching Catalan culture itself, a contribution which has similarly been made by citizens whose mother tongue is another language. This situation therefore requires a language policy which effectively helps to achieve the normal use of Catalonia's own language and which at the same time guarantees a scrupulous respect of the linguistic rights of all citizens.

http://www20.gencat.cat/portal/site/Llengcat/menuitem.21576464db9e81e7a129d410b0 c0e1a0/?vgnextoid=d287f9465ff61110VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0aRCRD&vgnextchannel=d287f94 65ff61110VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=detall&contentid=fd19657030672110Vgn VCM1000008d0c1e0aRCRD

One could substitute Ireland/Irish/English easily into the above. The Catalan law looks interesting. A Federal Ireland, with a Gaeltacht provincial Government would be nice!

A Federal Ireland, with a Gaeltacht provincial Government would be nice!

Taitníonn an moladh seo go mór liom - agus ní ag magadh atá mé! Laistigh den chúige Gaeltachta bheadh an Ghaeilge i réim i ngach gné den saol poiblí - gan leisce, gan trócaire, gan ghéilleadh do lucht an ah-sure-'t-will-do-achais agus lucht an cop-on-and-speak-English!-achais.

Agus bheadh an rogha ag Gaeilgeoirí lasmuigh den chúige Gaeltachta iad féin a chlárú mar bhaill den chúige céanna agus a ngnó oifigiúil a dhéánamh tríd an gcóras Gaeltachta.


Do_chinniúint, what I meant was that there is a very fine balancing act required.

quote:

I respectfully disagree. I have the opportunity every time I open my mouth.

Driftwood814, I agree with you. I still hear the complaint, though. And I agree that it may not be founded, but in some cases it may. Some people are go-gettters, others followers. The followers won't "go get" their Irish, so it needs to be brought to them by the leaders.

quote:

If Irish had a practical purpose...a real one that meant something to the Irish people...we wouldn't be having this discussion ...

I think it is best to focus on human language as one whole, verbal and non-verbal, and transcending any one language. We need to communicate, but we needn't communicate in any single manner. We are hardwired with language, but we needn't speak in any single language. English is not necessary, and neither is Irish. This is true, and we know this because we have the deaf, dumb, and blind, and we have a multiplicity of languages, and we have a running conversation in our heads which never needs a "language", so to speak. Now people may perceive a need based on a very strong habit of communicating in a particular way, and this is very real. So with that clear, how do you create an atmosphere in which people choose Irish, at least for part of their communication, and create an Irish habit? I think we are getting somewhere with meaning, because Irish now is in no position to subvert English as the major language of commerce. And, for the most part, people express a desire for Irish because of a desire for meaning. If it lacks this, then it will mean nothing to the Irish person.

quote:

So with that clear, how do you create an atmosphere in which people choose Irish, at least for part of their communication, and create an Irish habit?

Sin í an cheist! The answer will differ by person, region and situation. The article deals with how best to support a key environment - areas and communities in which Irish is already the majority language. Losing the Gaeltacht will severely affect meaning elsewhere.

Yes, and that there have to be different approaches for the native speakers and the learners, who will find different meaning in the action. And an aspect of meaning for some is preserving the Gaeltacht.

quote:

"you can't X without Irish" of at least one thing meaningful to a broad swath of Irishmen

How about:
"You can't be part of/accepted by the country's Gaelic cultural, intellectual and political elite without Irish" ?

A fantasy? Yes :) But it would be a massive motivation.