Hi, we are naming our first born Seán after my father. We are eager to use one of two spellings - Shaughan or Seaghán - and would really welcome any views on which version is most traditional / authentic.

Based on a search of the National Archives, in 1911 there were 361 people in Ireland with the spelling Seaghán but not one person called Shaughan. This seems to indicate that Seaghán is more traditional but I suppose that there is a chance that Shaughan may have predated this version and have lost popularity by 1911.

Our son was born on 9 December and will be the first Ó Móráin for seven generations and I'm going to really make an effort for him to be bilingual from the time he starts speaking so want to get his Christian name right!

Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir, Pádraig

Seaghán is a legitimate Irish variation of Seán. "Shaughan" is an anglicization of the Irish name.

How many people called Seán were there in Ireland in 1911?

Foclóir Gaedhilge agus Béarla (Dinneen, 1927) has a heading for Seán which later mentions Seaghán as an alternative. If Seaghán had been more prevalent in 1927, I would have expected the headword to be Seaghán with Seán mentioned as an alternative.

Of course, many things could have changed between 1911 and 1927, but another look at the archives might be the answer.

112 for Seán

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=se%C 3%A1n&county=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&submit=Search

40 for Sean

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=sean &county=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&submit=Search

7 for Seon
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=seon &county=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&submit=Search

Many of these from people who gave their full name in Irish.

346871 for John.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=john &county=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&submit=Search

Many of these will have been called Seán but John officially.

Seaghán = 361
Seán = 112

Seaghán wins! (So much for Dinneen. )

I suspect some of that may be due to archaising. People who wrote their names in Irish in 1911 were making a point, and may have chosen a spelling that was deliberately far from John.

But for someone in an English speaking environment now, Seaghán probably makes sense, and may be less subject to mispronunciation.

Hi,

Thanks for your help with this. I had thought that Shaughan may have been the origin of Shaun, similar to Seán having been derived from Seaghán - what do you think?

P

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Seán having been derived from Seaghán

This type of news, that Seán isn't original at all, must be very troubling to name-purists that mock those who have name-spelling variations, which is so common here in the States (Sean, Seán, Shaun, Shawn, Shawneen, etc.)

I wonder how many other cases of Irish names exist where the name purists are wrong. How about Patrick?

Dayvide

Pádraig,

there are many variants in English and Irish of such a common name.

Trying to work out which derived from which with all the spelling changes over the centuries could be tough. Pick one you like, and think will be pronounced as you expect, and run with it!

@Bodhrán - original? For a Hebrew name imported by the Anglo Normans and again by the English?


And as for Patrick, which is a nickname from Latin.....

(Purists are often wrong).

quote:

Purists are often wrong

Conas deirtear "impure purist" - saoithin neamhglan?

And my nickname is originally French, a combination of Beauregard and Ronald - BeauRon, which has been gaelicized to Bodhrán - how's that for originality?

(Message edited by bodhrán on December 28, 2009)

Very original. But did you check the dictionary?

bodhrán [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
duine bodhar.

De réir na seanscéalta is íne is mar seo a leanas a bhí sé:

Mac Bhodhair Uí Laoghaire ba ea Bodhrán. (Boidhrín an mac eile.)

De bharr Bodhrán a bheith de shíor ar thóir bhan do chuir a athair isteach i mainistir é. Ní raibh Bodhrán ró-shásta leis an socrú nua, áfach, agus d'fhiafraigh sé dá athair, "Conas is féidir liom bheith i mo mhanach agus ag an am céanna leanúint ar aghaidh liom craiceann a bhuaileadh?"

Do dhear agus do dhein an t-athair uirlis speisialta dó. Do thug sé an uirlis nua dá mhac agus adúirt, "Seo dhuit anois, a mhic, is fíor nach bhfuil an creathadóir airgthe fós ach má dhéanann tusa agus do chumas samhlaíochta bhur seacht ndícheall, déanfaidh an píosa craicinn seo an gnó, mar a déarfá. Buail leat!"

Agus b'í sin an cnaguirlis ar a gcuirtear "bodhrán" sa lá inniu.


Sin é mo scéal agus más bréag uaim é, ba bhréag chugam é, ní mise a chum ná a cheap.

Scéal agus craiceann air...

quote:

Seaghán ... I suspect some of that may be due to archaising.

Me too. John is archaic also, even though it is the English standard right now. How long will the silent H hold on? In general, I believe the older Irish descendent is Eoin. Right? I'd say pick what you want, just keep in mind what your child will experience due to spelling and pronunciation. Find a balance between your originality desires, and the conservative reality that people often function well with common names. But hey, how can you go wrong with any form of Seán!

As for purists, whose willing to pull out the 12th century manuscripts and check the form then? The Norman French of that time was probably two syllables which was quickly fading, or maybe even the two forms existing simultaneously.

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In general, I believe the older Irish descendent is Eoin.

From the latin, yes. But it is sometimes confused with the native Irish Eoghan (which Ó Corráin & Maguire gives as "born of the yew")

(Message edited by aonghus on December 28, 2009)

Now we're getting into deep and somewhat muddied waters. Which reminds me that the late Eoin Ó Tuairisc (an Irish language writer of some note) from Ballinasloe in Co. Galway started off in life as Eugene Waters.

Is (or was) this use of Eoin as an equivalent for Eugene common?

Woulfe connects Eugene and Eoghan, but they are not connected etymologically. I see Eoin only for John (and its variants). I would imagine just by the sheer similarity of them that there might have been/be confusion. There seems to be a bit of that when it came to assimilation of foreign names into Irish.

I agree with Seánw when he alludes to how the boy will feel. When learning to read and write he will have to deal with shaug--han when all the others have easy one syllable names such as Sam, Roy, Jeff, Jon, Rick, Ben, Kev, Jack, or Brad. Not many boys are called Sue.

I met an American in Dublin once who told me his name was O'Brien. Then he told me he had changed from O'Dougherty / O'Dochartaigh which he deemed difficult to spell and explain.

Think of the name Ó Sé which is longer in English O'Shea and used to be Ó Séaghdha. The fewer syllables the better seems to be the rule "out there".

I think Seán (or Shaun / Shawn) would be nice but why be a minority within a minority. Even in English-speaking Ireland "Seaghán" would cause eyes to roll. What is the rule in computing KIS --

Lots of youngsters are called Shane which may also derive from Seán. People may have failed to notice that the fada over the a instead of the e. There is a word "séan" meaning joy.

The schoolyard is a very cruel merciless place. Think of the child fending for himself. Children want to be the same as all the others.

There seem to be a number of naming practices at work in Ireland today: the traditional family names; the Saints' names, Bible names, television, literary, and pop-song names. In recent years Irish language names such as Caoimhe, Saoirse, Niamh, Aoife, Aoibhinn, Sonas, Cian, Caoilfhionn, and so on are becoming popular. Carrying a name like that one would expect the owner to be able to speak Irish. Sadly the pronunciation hardly lasts a generation, becoming Keeveh etc.

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Think of the name Ó Sé which is longer in English O'Shea and used to be Ó Séaghdha. The fewer syllables the better seems to be the rule "out there".

It seems to me that this comes down to respect for the language in question (and confidence in it from speakers).
Take French for example - it's an esteemed language in the English-speaking world so bearers of even quite cumbersome French names (from an English perspective) wouldn't dream of modifying them to accommodate those who have difficulty with their pronunciation and spelling.
Why would they? The fault lies with the person unable to handle the name and not with the intricacies of the French language.

But in the case of Irish the situation is reversed.
Bearers of Irish names often feel a great deal of embarrassment at having names which the monoglot English-speaking majority find difficult to pronounce and so will accept the most grotesque mispronunciations (even going so far as to adopt them themselves e.g. Diarmuid "Dermot" Gavin).
If their mistake is pointed out to those who mispronounce Irish names the blame is put squarely on the language - How dare Irish have its own distinct pronunciation and orthography!!
The substitution of the stately "Ó Séaghdha" by the meaningless, bald-looking "Ó Sé" is an aspect of this same problem.

quote:

Lots of youngsters are called Shane which may also derive from Seán. People may have failed to notice that the fada over the a instead of the e. There is a word "séan" meaning joy.

I'd imagine "Shane" is simply the northern pronunciation of "Seaghán" - "eagh" = /e:/ as in "breagh", "deagh" etc.
It makes sense to use it (perhaps without the síneadh fada) to indicate that pronunciation instead of using "Séan" which is easily misunderstood.

quote:

Shane which may also derive from Seán

Shane is a form of Seán, reflecting the northern pronunciation.

Here ye be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_%28name%29

quote:

Shane is a form of Seán, reflecting the northern pronunciation.

Yes that's right.
I could have sworn I wrote more or less the same thing in my post.
I must have forgotten to do it :)