I have looked carefully into the linguistic study of the Gaeltachts and built my own opinion about this matter.

From what I have seen even in weak Gaeltacht areas all is not lost. If we take into account usage, attitide towards Irish and abilities in Irish, it is obvious that the level is above the national average. About 80% of young people still have reasonable command of Irish even if not all of them have perfect or native Irish.

Therefore I hope that not many districts will be put out of the Gaeltacht. I think that this would be a fatal signal towards the habitual Irish speakers and will accelerate the downward trend in the whole region. The only districts which I would put out of the Gaeltacht are those which do not show any more any significant difference to the average of the non-Gaeltacht areas of the county or in which there is an obvious hostility of the majority towards Irish.

In nearly every Gaeltacht district the level of ability still allows an easily possible recoverage in contrast to the rest of Ireland. There is rather the problem to increase the usage of whatever Irish the people know and to limit unfavourable linguistic behaviours. This is also true in non-Gaeltacht areas, but with the difference that increasing usage will result in partial regaelicisation within Gaeltacht districts.

Furthermore I would conduct a linguistic study of Galway, Tralee, Killarney and Letterkenny city in order to examine the impact of the neighbouring Gaeltachts. In order to stabilize the Gaeltacht areas the neighbouring cities and districts should be included into the Irish language policies. There only Gaelscoils and bilingual schools should be existing and English-medium schools should be closed step by step.

Ar aghaidh leis an nGaeilge! Ciallaíonn foghlaim ón Chatalóin foghaim an bua a bhaint amach!
Alex

In my opinion there are 3 types of Gaeltacht areas:

Fíor-Ghaeltacht = areas where Irish is the main language

Strong Breac-Ghaeltacht = areas where English is the main language, but Irish is still there

Weak Breac-Ghaeltachtaí = areas that is Irish speaking as Japan

Strong Breac-Ghaeltacht areas = Cúil Aodha, Rath Chairn, Na Forbacha

Weak Breac-Ghaeltacht areas = Achill island, Burtonport

The ''strong breac-ghaeltachtaí'' should remain, but the weak ones should go because its obvious now Irish is well gone in them areas.

Where wpould you place An Rinn on the spectrum - I have never visited ?

I agree with Alexanderfranke when he says "The only districts which I would put out of the Gaeltacht are those which do not show any more any significant difference to the average of the non-Gaeltacht areas of the county"

I still maintain that even the weakest Gaeltacht area has more speakers and daily use than any Galltacht area certainly in the 26 counties.

Ring and most of mayo don't even deserve weak Gaeltacht status.

I do not agree that An Rinn or Achill or the Irish-speaking areas of Mayo should be expelled from the Gaeltacht.

As far as I can see the plan is to search for areas where Irish is actually used and based on such criteria almost any one -- ONE -- urban Irish-medium school would have a greater enrolment than three or four Gaeltacht schools combined.

Add to that the problem of English in the Gaeltacht. How to teach it. Supposedly the parents and the community teach the Irish at home so the school needs to concentrate on the other language.

Problems. Problems.

I think Irish is coming on so well in some urban areas that new thinking needs to take place: such as the provision of a well-funded Irish-language centre on the lines of the Alliance Francaise / Goethe Institute / Institute Cervantes where books, films, CDs, courses, ionad buail isteach, adult classes, naíonra, etc etc etc can be made available in all major regional towns.

There should be warm comfortable places where people can assemble and meet without having to pay a fortune for alcohol. Whatever happened to tae agus ceapairí at the Oíche Chaidrimh. (Actually don't look up the dictionary for that one. I mean a night of conviviality -- as Gaeilge)

Those in charge would need to be ruthless in insisting that all employees speak Irish. Too many cousins of a coursin's friend who don't actually speak Irish get jobs in GAA clubs and can't be shifted even if the Committee want to make Irish more widely used.

As for redefining the borders -- I'd be happy with Tonn Clíodhna, Tonn Tóime, Tonn Ruaidhrí and ---- what's the other one? All Ireland but follow the spoken Irish.

quote:

Ring and most of mayo don't even deserve weak Gaeltacht status.

That's untrue. An Rinn, although not having a particularly high % of habitual speakers overall, is actually a lot stronger than many other Gaeltachtaí in the 5-9 and 10-14 age cohorts. According to the census data anyway, many of the people in these age groups in Rinn use Irish outside of school. In many other Gaeltachtaí, most only use it at school. Rinn stands out in this regard so they must be doing something right.

In my opinion, all of the communities in the suburbs of Galway should lose their Gaeltacht status. Retaining Gaeltacht status won't do a damn thing for Bearna or Claregalway or Moycullen. Everything from Na Forbacha west along the coast should stay.

I would also remove official Gaeltacht status from all the districts in Uíbh Ráthach, Kerry. These two blocs are the most glaring examples imho. One could also argue that Achill and other parts of Mayo, plus certain townlands in southwest and mid Donegal should also lose their status, but the two regions above could be removed with justification tomorrow.

If the meaning of 'Gaeltacht' is to retain any meaning, any dignity, then the suburbs of Galway need to be taken out, at the very least. Irish is probably only the third or fourth most widely spoken home language in these areas. If it's not done, then they may as well do away with official Gaeltacht status ENTIRELY and work strictly on an all-island basis. It will have lost its meaning. 'Gaeltacht' will have shifted from being defined as an 'Irish speaking district' [meaning 80%+ daily use] or a 'partly Irish speaking district' [meaning 25%+ daily use] to something like 'district where Irish is spoken by someone. Anyone.' Which means every county in the country could qualify.

They may as well say 'Only 5% speak Irish in _______ (take your pick), but it's good enough for us.'

Danny, in the weak Gaeltacht areas, the Irish that is transmitted to a small percentage is natural, traditional Irish. You can't compare 5% speaking Irish in a Gaeltacht area with 5% speaking Irish in the Galltacht...

I suggest to look at both ability in Irish and usage altogether. In 1926 as far as I have read, the question even was simply which part of the population CAN speal Irish without considering actual usage. I think it is worth considerung, too, the potential for using Irish if you want it. In many non-Gaeltacht areas, you will have few chances to use your Irish and some people look at you as if you are talking in Zulu. Districts where you can often make use of Irish in non-specific Irish language contexts do qualify for a breac-Ghaeltacht! As I have seen in the study of abilities this is probably the case in most present-day Gaeltachts! Areas where the majoroty is hostile towards Irish would in turn not qualify for a breac-Ghaeltacht because you will probably get few contacts through Irish, either.

As I have seen from the study the transmission and maintenance of Irisg language skills by means outside from home still work far better even in weak Gaeltacht districts than in non-Gaeltacht areas. Yes, guest, the remaining percentage of traditional transmission, even if low, is another point. It is the responsibility of traditional native speakers to pass on as much authentity as possible to non- and semi-native speakers.
In the case of a few districts within Galway city as well as the two weakest districts of Mayo I agree to remove them from the Gaeltacht. I would suggest to do further studies on the weakest districts and neighbouring districts. They should be rather over-carefully to remove Gaeltacht status than make a mistake which probably will be of long-term consequence.
What will happen to those areas not staying in the Gaeltacht? The policies of all-Irish education will end and ordinary English-medium schools probably will be set up. This means a final blow to the skills in Irish of the population. English-only speakers will be encouraged to do their destructive "work". Committed Irish speakers will loose the possibility to point to the Gaeltacht status any more. Thus the way is prepared for decline to national average. Therefore I would only remove those districts where there is no significant difference to the average of non-Gaeltacht parts of the county in every aspect of language maintenance. In this case every special policy is obviously a wasted effort against the total indifference towards Irish where a recoverage is no longer easily possible.
I think that a higher number of committed Irish speakers can still stimulate more usage of Irish in most Gaeltacht districtss.
Go raibh an Ghaeltacht, ar a laghad, athghaelaithe!
Alex

(Message edited by AlexderFranke on December 09, 2009)

Unregistered Guest, you certainly have a point. I would qualify it however: if the 5% speaking Irish in the Galltacht were known it would be found that some were from Kerry, others from Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Cork, Meath, Louth, etc not to mention the sons and daughters of the heroes of the early years of athbheochan na Gaeilge.

I know that in the case of one larger than life follower of Pádraig Mac Piarais whose children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-greatgrandchildren still speak Irish. This is an extraordinary achievement to have maintained Irish as a living family language for so long in a relatively hostile environment.

Add to those families like mine where, as children, we all took to Irish like ducks to water and -- in my own case anyway -- from the moment I made contact with it at school I vowed to learn it. I knew it was important for our family...

It was only in very recent years that I discovered that my parents had been reared in an area where a small percentage of old people still spoke Irish among themselves*. I regard myself as one who caught the flame before it became extinguished. I am certain there is more Irish in my extended family now than in many official Gaeltacht areas. It is a pleasure as I approach the end of my life to have so many fluent speakers in the generations coming after me willing and able to speak to me fluently in natural Irish. It is an unrecorded achievement. (Neighbours of my sister once sympathised with her children: "Do they make you speak Irish?")

I look forward to having genuine first- and second-language Irish speakers recognised where ever in the country they may happen to live. Each of them is an aibhleog ...

Garret Fitzgerald, never noted for speaking Irish himself, made a good contribution to our knowledge with his research paper for the Royal Irish Academy: "The Incidence of Monoglot Irish Speakers in each Decennial Cohort as Recorded by the Census." The maps reveal the decline of first-language speakers of Irish and the rise of the second-language speakers i.e. the success of athbheochan na Gaeilge.

My contention is that Irish continued to be transmitted in many families throughout the country regardless of the designation "Gaeltacht" or "Galltacht". I would contend the "Galltacht" has been greatly reduced and weakened at least in the 26 - if not 29 counties by all of 100 years of education.

Hostile haters of Irish - and thoughtless followers of the Anglo-American media - chant with glee "the Irish revival failed" but it has not failed. It proceeds apace. Slowly. As with any national language that has the power of an independent sovereign state behind it not to mention the prestige accorded by official status as a working language in the EU Irish will progress in all the various domains where it now thrives and in many more that we cannot now imagine. Ní baol dúinn go n-éagfaidh ár Róisín Dubh.

"they may as well do away with official Gaeltacht status ENTIRELY and work strictly on an all-island basis."

I really think that needs to be "plan A"

I don't agree with that idea, if the language can't be kept alive in the Gaeltacht what chance does it have throughout the country...

(Message edited by Trigger on December 09, 2009)

Maith thú, a Thaidhgín! Is fíor-Éireannach thú!
Do you not see things a bit too positive? A successfull revival would have reslulted in maintaining at least the 1926 Gaeltacht and perhaps a few hundreds of thousends of first language speakers. Of course I wish Ireland would be monolingually Irish-speaking from Cobh to Donegal and Conamara to Dublin with English as well dominated foreign language.
If revival had failed ccompletely, Irish would have died out almost completeky like Cornish in Cornwall by the end of the 19th century.
On the one hand you are right that every first-language speaker is of equal worth whereever he is living. On the other hand an evironment where you have the real chance to use Irish daily is an unmesurable source for the language.
Is fuath liom an cultúr Sasan-Mheireiceánach atá baolach do go leor chltúr eile. Cogaimid in aghaidh Meireiceánuithe (agus Ioslamachuithe) an domhain!
Alex

What is the success percentage of learners on this website? That's a good question to ask before redefining Gaeltacht lines.

There are already schools in the 'Gaeltacht' in Mayo which run their classes largely through English so removing the status won't change much imo. I doubt most people would even notice a difference.

And to 'unregistered guest', I would argue that removing Gaeltacht status won't stop that 5% from continuing to use Irish in the home. There are other issues at play here. Consider the implications of Irish-only signs in overwhelmingly English speaking areas. Planning permission issues and so forth. To me, it makes a mockery of the language to continue with this charade. Seriously, what the hell is the Gaeltacht supposed to be!? It's really convenient to blame those evil 'English-only' speakers, but the ultimate blame must be laid at the feet of the thousands upon thousands of Irish speakers who abandoned the language as soon as they were able to learn English. No one did language shift like the Irish. The Irish put the Finns, Czechs, Poles, Norwegians, Hungarians and Latvians to shame.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what we want here on Daltaí, it will either happen or it won't. I imagine the most likely scenario is that there will be new Gaeltacht designations encompassing urban areas and perhaps a few rural areas in the current Galltacht and that places like Bearna will quietly have their status changed. To what? I'm not sure. But this is Ireland so it will probably be two or three years before we see any changes anyway. The very concept of the Gaeltacht is outdated. The Gaeltacht is now mostly English speaking. It's a horrible thing to say but it's true. If the borders were revised to accurately reflect (within reason) the sociolinguistic reality on the ground, then it would be mostly Irish speaking again. I still contend that Bearna and Tír an Fhia should be treated differently. As should Inis Meáin and Cléire. Different communities have different needs. Different communities exhibit different language patterns and habits.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on December 09, 2009)

quote:

Hostile haters of Irish - and thoughtless followers of the Anglo-American media - chant with glee "the Irish revival failed" but it has not failed.

How convenient. So anyone who believes the revival has not succeeded is a hater of Irish? The ultimate goal has not been achieved, but it hasn't FAILED. Some of the goals of the Gaelic League have been achieved, others will never be.

Even Douglas Hyde got it partly wrong:

quote:

"There is no use arguing the advantage of making Irish the language of our newspapers and clubs, because that is and ever shall be an impossibility; but for several reasons we wish to arrest the language in its downward path, and if we cannot spread it (as I do not believe we can), we will at least prevent it from dying out and make sure that those who speak it now, will also transmit it unmodified to their descendants."

If Hyde were alive today, I imagine he would be blown away by the progress Irish has made in the media, for example. I also believe he'd be quite saddened by the continuing decline of the Gaeltacht.

Truly Irish-spraking areas are the fior-Ghaeltachts! As breac-Ghaeltacht I would define those areas where the majority of people still have knowledge of Irish and a percentage above the national average still speaks it daily. It is fact that today 80 - 90 % of Gaeltacht districts are breac-Ghaeltachts. The fior-Ghaeltacht will certainly disappear unless drastic mesures will be acted upon by the communities themselves.

It is a serious mistake to deliver education by English in a designated Gaeltacht district! Instead preparatory courses and/or mandatory preschool groups to teach them Irish is the way if children do not have sufficient Irish.

It is clear that immigrants cannot be blamed for the decline of Irish. The English-only speakers are
(West-English) Irishmen! I strongly keep on believing that removing Gaeltacht status too quickly will enforce the downward trend. It is very clear that fior-Ghaeltachts need other policies than weak breac-Ghaeltachts!

An Ghaeilge go deo!
Alex

What is the success percentage of learners on this website? That's a good question to ask before redefining Gaeltacht lines.
Aontaím leat , some people learn a cúpla focal , and think that they can take over the country and change peoples lives, how conceited and full of Misguided self imposed importance is that. Some people would be better suited to stay with leaning rather that wrecking peoples lives from the comfort of their own Computers.

Oh, but linguistic necromancy is an important field of study!

There was an article in Nuacht24 - trì chineàl Ghaeltacht.

BTW, An Rinn I personally have found to be a stronghold of the language. regardless of the stats, in many ways it is a miracle, but in some ways it is a neo-Ghaeltacht, that is what is special about it.

Please elaborate Ggn.I was meant to go to Daon Scoil na Múmhan a few years ago but I funked it,now I have a bit more confidence- but no money!

Gaeltacht lú ach láidir,someone told me.......

Beag, ach láidir. Tá siad ag iarraidh an pobail a láidriú.

quote:

Some people would be better suited to stay with leaning rather that wrecking peoples lives from the comfort of their own Computers.

Sure the discussions are interesting, but who are we (some) who can't get our own Irish learning in order to play with the wheels of the Gaeltacht life? Some of these people were born and bred in the "Gaeltacht". Certainly something needs to change, but it is not as easy as statistics and fiats. The situation on the ground is complex. Some would even critique another as "he wasn't a native speaker" or are so bold as to think they have better ideas than the past Irish leaders who formed the last 90 years plus, but can't even eek out ordering a sandwich with brown bread in a small town! We have to have humility and perspective. Let us define the lines of our own personal Gaeltacht, and then maybe we can get involved with another's.

[This feedback comes from realizing how much this topic comes up again and again. I admit it is interesting, but I'm thinking when are we going to learn some Irish!]

quote:

think they have better ideas than the past Irish leaders who formed the last 90 years plus

Yes, all those years of Fianna Fáil rule have done WONDERS for Ireland. Oh yes.

I find this concept interesting. Is it not possible to learn Irish and discuss the future of the Gaeltacht all in the same day?

You want to talk about self-importance. Alright. How self-important does one have to be to think such discussions have ANY influence on government policy? Is Ó Cuív lurking on Daltaí? Some people are overly sensitive.

'Wrecking peoples lives'? Dramatic much?

quote:

That's a good question to ask before redefining Gaeltacht lines.
Aontaím leat , some people learn a cúpla focal , and think that they can take over the country and change peoples lives

Exaggerate much?

Tell me something Teifeach, at what point is a person allowed to have an opinion about the future of Irish? You let me know. What level of Irish is required? What 'success percentage'?

quote:

We have to have humility and perspective. Let us define the lines of our own personal Gaeltacht, and then maybe we can get involved with another's.

Same old same old, seánw. Who's getting involved? It's an opinion. It's a discussion that will have no bearing on the future of the Gaeltacht, but I find it an interesting discussion nonetheless. It's because of attitudes like yours and that of super-sensitive Teifeach that has given governments the excuse to do NOTHING over the years.

Ask yourself, why have the boundaries of the Gaeltacht only been altered on a large scale ONCE in eighty three years??. It's political. There are a lot of vested interests involved. And of course...money money money.

Yes seán, 'the situation on the ground is complex'. The situation on the ground has also changed dramatically since 1926. And 1956. Not that you could tell by looking at a map.

I'm in favour of the official Gaeltacht being significantly reduced because I think it would win back some of the credibility that the language has lost over the years because of State policy. People shouldn't underestimate what a FARCE it is to enter an area described as 'Irish speaking' when it's anything but. Irish speaking [or partly-Irish speaking] should mean just that. It shouldn't mean a community where Polish and Lithuanian is more likely to be heard on the Streets. Or where Irish is spoken in hushed tones at the back of pubs. Or strictly spoken in private at home. It's not unreasonable to expect to hear Irish in public in the Gaeltacht. You certainly hear it all around in the fíor-ghaeltachtaí.

People can speak however, wherever and whenever they want. It's their language, after all. But the difference between a legitimate Gaeltacht and some of the districts which are still masquerading as one fifty years after the locals chose English, well....it's like night and day.

I have written to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht affairs in order to point out my concern about the removal of the Gaeltacht status too quickly from too many districts. In Irish!
Yes, I am continuing in learning Irish. During my visits to Ireland I have been buisy to practice my Irish.
Everyone who agrees with me should write to the Department, too.
If people outside the Gaeltacht can set up Gaelscoils and nurseries, then the people within the Gaeltachts can do the same, with the difference that there is still more Irish left around than in most non-Gaeltacht areas! It is far not too late, except for the "Gaeltacht" of Galway city and some suburbs.
Is í Gaeltacht Mhaigh Eo an páiste imní is mó, dar liomsa! Níl cead go gheobhaidh Gaeltacht Mhaigh Eo an bháis gan mórán achair!

Beir bua!
Alex

quote:

It's because of attitudes like yours and that of super-sensitive Teifeach that has given governments the excuse to do NOTHING over the years.

If your discussion has no bearing on government actions, then why do attitudes like mine have an influence? I'm just making the point that if we can't learn Irish, then what makes us think we have the cure to the Irish question? If we know Irish, perhaps the discussion would become more interesting and more fruitful and more persuasive. Ireland is not a large country and the politicians aren't far off. There are more people in metro Los Angeles than on the whole Island, so we could have an impact, if someone would listen. I believe most in grass-roots non-governmental action, so I don't discount a movement that would, say, spring from this board. I just wonder if the energy displayed in the minutiae of Gaeltacht stats and figures were directed into learning Irish, there may be a sea change in opinions in Ireland and abroad.

Governments do nothing when the people let them do nothing. We live in a complacent age ...

Tell me something Teifeach, at what point is a person allowed to have an opinion about the future of Irish? You let me know. What level of Irish is required? What 'success percentage'?
as soon as he or she gets of his or her backside and does somethg positive , instead of complaining , you definitely have missed your calling as a Politian " All Talk and No action" its a dim memory that i read that you intended to proceed with your pursuit of actually Learning the language, musta got put on the back burner in favour of you beloved calculator again. Me Sensitive .,Guilty , Why? , cause i Love the Language and i am is whats called an Activist. Where as you could be considered , aw well maybe we can draw up a pie chart and figure that wan out!!!!

Zing! But here's the thing Teifeach, I am learning Irish. Again, is it not possible to discuss the Gaeltacht and learn Irish in the same day?

I am studying from Mícheál Ó Siadhail's 'Learning Irish' as we speak. I'm also in the Google Group started by MacFear, although I'm finding the pace a challenge already (!!).

What do you want me to do Teifeach? How am I supposed to be an 'activist' thousands of kilometres away? Isn't the fact I'm even interested in Irish a positive? The fact I've even bothered to learn what I can when most Irish people couldn't give two shits about the language? Irish has no practical use for me out here, yet I continue to learn it bit by bit. What more do you want? I can't carry out my day-to-day business in Irish here. I can't chat up girls in Irish. The nearest Irish speaker is probably hours and hours away. I don't live in an urban area. The internet is as good as it gets right now.

I'm still not sure what your argument even is. Don't talk about Irish, only learn it. ??
You immediately overract when anyone says anything that could be perceived as negative about Irish. Half the time it's not even negative. Just acknowledging the challenges Irish faces. Even something as innocent as saying 'Welsh is more widely spoken than Irish'. Another user said that recently and you came in ranting and raving saying such people might be better off learning Welsh then. Saying that maybe people should ask themselves if Irish is the right language for them. You overreact. You took a widely recognised fact and misconstrued as some attack on Irish. Whether it's an opinion or actual fact like 'Irish isn't widely spoken', it doesn't seem to matter what it is.

You can think what you want. Whatever accusations you want to use against me can't be used against the people who have carried out research into the areas I'm most interested. Sociolinguistics. The very people who have compiled statistics about the Gaeltacht that I'm apparently so enamored with are all accomplished Irish speakers. Some are even 'activists'. Perhaps you should consider the information itself rather than focusing on the person(s) presenting and discussing it.

quote:

If your discussion has no bearing on government actions, then why do attitudes like mine have an influence?

Because if people in a position of power and influence have a similar attitude, then there's a risk of nothing ever changing. Your own opinion (and mine) is largely irrelevant. The point I was trying to get across is that if people are so afraid to acknowledge the gravity of the situation for fear of 'turning people off' Irish, or offending people, then little will change. Just look at State policy towards Irish.

quote:

I'm just making the point that if we can't learn Irish, then what makes us think we have the cure to the Irish question?

What do you mean 'if we can't learn Irish'? Who said anything about a cure to the 'Irish question'? I don't think cutting the size of the Gaeltacht is a cure. I don't think it will lead to a large scale revival. However, I *do* think it's long overdue and will regain a bit of respect and credibility for Irish. I'm also not convinced by Ó Cuív's statement that money spent on areas removed from the Gaeltacht wouldn't go to areas that remain. For example, funding for projects in Bearna being freed up for ones in Carna. He claims that wouldn't happen. In other words, there's little point in arguing for a change in the Gaeltacht boundaries on the premise that funding would be transfered to areas that have largely retained Irish versus areas that haven't. Areas that have a realistic chance of stopping language shift from proceeding any further versus the ones where language shift is more or less complete. The lost causes.

quote:

I believe most in grass-roots non-governmental action, so I don't discount a movement that would, say, spring from this board.

What does that have to do with the future of Gaeltacht status? What movement could spring from this board that would change Bearna back into an Irish speaking community?

quote:

Governments do nothing when the people let them do nothing. We live in a complacent age ...

When was the last time there was a large scale march in favour of Irish in the Republic? Irish is not a priority for the Government. Has it ever been? I see no point in waiting for some long awaited 'revival' when it probably won't happen. Let people come to the language if they so wish rather than trying to convert them or foist it upon them. I think it will be more successful that way.

Irish is increasingly being framed within the context of minority rights and all that goes with being a minority language community. But Irish speakers in Ireland are not a typical language community. I see no problem with this. That's not to say that Irish isn't capable of rebounding considerably. It already is, in certain areas of life. I think it has a lot of potential for growth, but I don't think it will ever be spoken by a large percentage of the population. Is that defeatist or merely an acknowledgement of reality? I'd be happy to be wrong, but I don't see it happening.

Rambling aside, that's why I place so much importance on the Gaeltacht. If, for the sake of argument, the Gaeltacht is to be the last place where 'the unconscious speaking of Irish' is commonplace, then I think everything should be done to protect it. Widespread intergenerational transmission of Irish, cradle-to-grave Irish speaking...communities where this is the norm are few and far between. The focus should be on them. And areas which have largely disgarded the language should lose their status imho. On the other hand, communities which have kept the language going despite emigration, poverty, idiotic State policy and the pressures of English should be recognised and rewarded.

Out of curiosity, I wanted to see how the Gaeltacht is defined and promoted in Ireland and abroad.

Here are some random examples taken from Google:

From Waterford Tourism:
http://www.waterfordtourism.org/gaeltacht.htm

quote:

The generic name for such areas is The Gaeltacht. This name is given to parts of Ireland where the Irish language (Gaelic) is the principal, everyday language in the community. The ethos of the Gaeltacht is "distinct and different" because of the living language.

From GaelSaoire:
http://www.gaelsaoire.ie/asp/gaeltachtai.asp?page=2&language=english

quote:

The Gaeltacht. What is it?
The Gaeltacht is the term used to refer to those areas of Ireland in which the Irish language (Gaeilge) is still spoken as a community language, and its culture and traditions are very much alive and thriving.

Wiktionary:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&hs=n5I&defl=en&q =define:Gaeltacht&ei=1AwjS_HpJIL0sgOm07XgDg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title &ved=0CAgQkAE

quote:

An officially recognised area where the Irish language is the predominant language in daily use.

Údarás na Gaeltachta
http://www.udaras.ie/index.php/865

quote:

What is the Gaeltacht
Although all of the Gaeltacht population can speak English, these are the only parts of Ireland where Irish is still spoken as the community language.

GoVisitIreland (for foreigners, obviously)
http://www.govisitireland.com/majestic.html

quote:

Dingle is a harbour town, once fortified and seeped in history. Ryan’s Daughter was filmed in the area 30 years ago. The town also is the gateway to the Gaeltacht, where Gaelic is the first language.

The Gaeltacht (meaning the Gaeltacht in its entirety...this thing that comprises parts of seven counties and has an overall population of some 95,000 people) continues to be promoted far and wide as something which it no longer is. Irish is not the 'predominant language in daily use' throughout the Gaeltacht. It's not 'the principal, everyday language' of the most people in the Gaeltacht. It's more like the principal, everyday language of 20-25% of Gaeltacht residents. That's just one reason why the boundaries need to be changed. The whole thing is out of whack. The whole concept is outdated.

From the Údarás again:

quote:

The preservation of the Gaeltacht as an Irish-speaking community has been regarded, by successive Governments since the foundation of the State, as of the utmost importance.

Unlikely. If it was regared by successive governments of being of the utmost importance the population of the Gaeltacht wouldn't have been halved by emigration in the 1930s and halved AGAIN in the 1950s. The Gaeltacht was hit hardest. But I thought it was a special place with a distinct culture and language that was treasured by the caring government in Dublin?

Between 1841 and 1961, the population of the Gaeltacht (as defined in 1956) dropped by 75%. In the country as a whole, it dropped by less than half. Obviously Irish governments can only take part of the blame for the drop in population.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on December 11, 2009)

One last thing. For those who may wonder why I keep mentioning Bearna (Co. Galway), it's one of the more extreme examples of what's wrong with the Official Gaeltacht.

Bearna (Electoral Division, 2006 Census)

Total Population: 12,052
Those who claimed to speak Irish daily outside of the education system: 578

578/12,052 = 4.8%

This means that Irish is largely confined to the school room in Bearna, just as in most areas of the country. Bearna is a Gaeltacht in name only.

...and yet I went to church in Bearna when I was there last spring, and had no trouble at all finding a knot of Irish speakers (including a Scottish Gaelic speaker who'd married into the Gaeltacht!) hanging around having a chat after the service.

Irish is still in Bearna if you've ears to hear it.

I am Learning Irish , this may very well be the case , and for this i applaud you. But i see absolutely No Evidence of it in any of your posting. i Learned and now speak Irish Regularly. How?. I didnt concern myself with gaeltacht sizes , and Goverment help or hinderances or statistics or much of the stuff that you seem to be pre-occupied with , maybe therin lies the clue , should you care to open your eyes and take off the blinkers , and stop useing all this data as an excuse to hide behind actually sitting down and Learning. No one near you that knows Gaeilge in any shape or fashion , You have Daltaí , IGT , MSN , Skype to name but a few , also TG4, RnaG. You will find more time to find excuses and cleverer ways to disagree with me on my suggestions ,(Which are only meant to help you) should you choose to avoid the suggestions , that most people , who then get inquisitive about the Actual language. I honestly cant remember you actually asking many Language questions , Grammar , pronounciation , etc its an old tecnique but it works . . . . .

An uair dheiridh a raibh mé féin ar shochraid i mBearna, dhá bhliain ó shoin, ní raibh le clos ann ach an Ghaeilg, ó thús deireadh agus amuigh sa gclós agus san óstán ina dhiaidh sin. An dream daoine a bhfuil aithne agam orthu as an áit, Gaeilg uilig atá acu. An t-aon teaghlach amháin gan Ghaeilg a bhfuil aithne agam orthu san áit, bhog siad isteach ann as Sasain.

Is beag an mhaith do dhuine a chraiceann a chur de mar gheall ar líne ina intinn féin, feictear dom. An dream gur mór leo línte, is lú a mhaidhmfeas ar aon teorainn a chruthaigh a dteanga Béarla thart orthu sa saol.

This is the problem with this forum. Constant discussion of ISSUES AROUND THE LANGUAGE. Should the Gaeltacht be redrawn? What would Danny2007 have done in 1926 to support the Gaeltacht? What new towns speaking Irish can be established? Where should the Ministry of the Gaeltacht's money go? And so on...

It is a form of torture reading these posts. Surely, if you are interested, you should learn the language. As Danny said, the early chapters of Learning Irish (extremely basic as they are) are a challenge to him. But this board is called Daltaí because it is for students of the language, not interminable discussion of every possible sideissue.

''578/12,052''

That is higher than the national average.

Those who can Learn , Do so. Those who cannot Learn, Waffle.

quote:

Irish is still in Bearna if you've ears to hear it.

Of course. I just provided data showing that Irish is still spoken by hundreds of people in Bearna, so what's your point exactly? Irish is still in lots of places. The question is, while the Gaeltacht is consistently hyped up as a place where 'Irish is the predominant or community language', does Bearna fit that description in 2009? No one said Irish isn't spoken in Bearna. Do you acknowledge this?

But perhaps you've proven my point that the Gaeltacht is morphing from areas where Irish was the predominant language of the community to areas where Irish is spoken by someone. Anyone.

quote:

i Learned and now speak Irish Regularly.

More power to you. You also have it easier. Being Irish and actually being resident in Ireland helps a lot.

quote:

I didnt concern myself with gaeltacht sizes , and Goverment help or hinderances or statistics or much of the stuff that you seem to be pre-occupied with , maybe therin lies the clue , should you care to open your eyes and take off the blinkers , and stop useing all this data as an excuse to hide behind actually sitting down and Learning.

Again, you seem to be suggesting that talking about the Gaeltacht and statistics precludes someone from learning Irish as well. I'm not using data as an excuse not to learn Irish. I am learning Irish. Clear? Maybe I don't want to get involved in the inevitable dialect wars that erupt here and on IGTF every other week. Or to get bogged down in the minutiae of grammar. My primary learning guide is something right in front of me. It's not a forum with all sorts of probably well-meaning people that may or may not be providing accurate information. I prefer to use one or two sources that I deem trustworthy rather than an assortment of anonymous posters with different levels of fluency and different dialects. You're making a mistake by thinking that since I'm asking few questions on here about Irish, that I'm in fact not making an effort. I am.

quote:

It is a form of torture reading these posts. Surely, if you are interested, you should learn the language.

I am in the process of learning Irish. See above.

quote:

'578/12,052''

That is higher than the national average.

So? So any district where more than 1.8% of the population speak Irish habitually should receive official Gaeltacht status? It'd be higher than the national average, after all.

Believe me, I'd have enough excuses not to bother with Irish. But I carry on at my own pace.

The situation in the Gaeltacht is not reason to give up, but rather reinforces the importance of keeping the language alive in the communities where it is still spoken widely. As someone living outside of Ireland, I don't consider it a matter of personal urgency. The burden rests first and foremost with Irish people living in Ireland. It's not my fight and I never wanted to learn Irish in some romantic effort to 'save it'. I don't have a fetish for obscure or lesser used languages. If I did I'd just learn Cornish or Manx. I'd like to be able to read Irish at a reasonably high level. That's my primary goal.

quote:

No one near you that knows Gaeilge in any shape or fashion , You have Daltaí , IGT , MSN , Skype to name but a few , also TG4, RnaG.

In person, Teifeach. I thought that'd be obvious. TG4 is nice, but it's not personal. Listening and watching can't compare with engaging with someone in person. That's the point I was trying to make. You need to put yourself in other peoples shoes and consider the challenges of trying to learn a little used language thousands of kilometres away. You at least have a Gaeltacht not far away. You've an Irish language scene in Derry too. There's nothing like that here and again I would think the fact I and other non-Irish people even have an interest in the language should be recognised as a positive thing. It's more than can be said for many people actually resident in Ireland.

I should also add that different people have different interests. Daltaí is home to some linguists and grammar types. That sort of discussion bores me and it's not why I became interested in Irish. Therefore I stay out of it. Conversely, some people are more interested in the history and development of the language. The Gaeltacht and language shift etc. Clearly there is a market for this otherwise we wouldn't have seen the publication of three seperate English language books over the past five years dealing with Irish.

Why Irish? Reflections on the Importance of the Irish language today
A New View of the Irish Language
More Facts About Irish

There is an interest there and these books serve a purpose. They are all pro-Irish, but they aren't afraid to tackle the tough issues too. I honestly don't see any harm in discussing them. No one is obligated to read or even give a damn.

quote:i Learned and now speak Irish Regularly.

More power to you. You also have it easier. Being Irish and actually being resident in Ireland helps a lot.

Yeah in many ways its easier, and in many ways it is not. I Was born and raised with English, and most of my Culture was Brainwashed outta me at school and through the media, Believe it or not. I had absolutely no idea of Irish till i was almost 40, and when i started learning i stupidly thought it would be a year course and i would be able to Speak Irish, i could not have been more wrong, as i am sure you are well aware. It was really hard learning and i put a lot of long hours in , with Classes and a lot of work at home and attending absolutely Everything remotely associated with Irish , but it quickly became a Labour of Love. I also decided to attend as many classes as i could in various locations which widened my Irish Circle. No one came and collected me , i sought them out. So even living in Ireland, Especially the North you can very easily avoid the Gaeilge movement, and many choose to do so. Yes i do
have the Luxury of having a Gaeltacht less than two hours away from me. Am i fluent, i dont think so , but i am told i am as i can chat for hours or days with friends in Irish, i have yet to find the True Definition of "Fluent. I am not a native Irish Speaker and i am resigned to the fact that i never will be , but i am a Native Irishman with a True authentic Irish accent which lends itself well to speaking Irish , i also have an Irish mentality and an Irish sense of humour even though i speak English and my spoken Irish tinged with English sounds , i still consider my self a Native Irish speaker in this Sense of the word. And once again i do applaud your efforts to Learn Irish with all the difficulties that you face, but i dont respect someone just because they decide to Learn Irish , look at some of the Assholes who frequent these sites with better Irish than me , "Actions speak louder than words"
Its not what you Learn , it what you do with it once you have learned it that counts. I choose to pass it on and be an " Activist"

Danny, you can join the Irish community online through MSN messenger and skype whether you talk or just write. I keep in touch with my forum friends that way. You can practice your speaking and writing in Irish.
And there is also Twitter and Facebook and ofcourse email.

quote:

... the Gaeltacht ... statistics ... dialect wars ... grammar ...

Why do we come here to Daltaí day after day? Initially I thought this would be a site where I could help others with their learning of Irish only to discover that students of Irish abroad were advised to avoid me, the typical Gaeilgeoir of modern Ireland, those active speakers who have learnt the language well, use it as often as possible, and come here to improve their knowledge and share their enthusiasm.

Instead foreign students were advised to find the really genuine native speaker unsullied by education, dictionaries, TV, Radio, or anything written in Irish in the last 100 years.

Those of us who have deliberately studied the language in all its forms over a life-time are suspect. Better to find an illiterate monoglot fisherman or sheep-farmer from Corca Dorcha and rely on him.

Well imagine my answer to that. I consider it insulting.

Essentially, of the 1,500,000 people who claim some knowledge of Irish, there are far more active daily speakers of Irish outside the Gaeltacht than within. The Gaeltacht has economic and social problems that have nothing to do with language. Language is farthest from the mind of the unemployed, the uneducated, the inarticulate who know neither English nor Irish well but only an amalgam of both, the lonely unmarried bachelors trapped on a "family" farm that is not worth anything as a homestead and would only be purchased by a German stock-broker looking for a remote hideaway. We know what a curse holiday homes are in a community. These are the subject of Danny2007's statistics. Fear an aonphoirt.

Ar aon nós, sin é mo dhearcadh-sa. I am amazed at Danny2007's statistics. I don't think they are helpful to learners. They are not helpful to me. I know how strong and how weak particular parts of the Gaeltacht are. I know that in some areas it has become much stronger in recent years, Inis Oirr, Co Galway and Eachléim, Co Mhaigh Eo, for example. I don't see the point of constantly using this site to publish such material. It is discouraging.

I am sure such information will prove very helpful to those hostile to the promotion of Irish as a living language throughout Ireland, those who don't want money spent on it, don't want to be bothered by TG4 or Raidió na Gaeltachta or Foinse or books in Irish and don't want to learn it themselves. Statistics that show the Gaeltacht is no more, that everyone speaks English now, will be very welcome news to that side of Irish political life.

I would much prefer to see a few sentences in Irish from Danny2007 based on those he is learning and see if we can communicate -- through Irish.

Cén leathanach ar a bhfuil tú, a Dhónaill?

Seosamh Mac Muirí:
A Sheosaimh, an bhfaca mé ar chlár teilifíse le gairid thú? Breifni Uí Ruairc? Clár an-mhaith.

This is obvious. In Northern Ireland there is no mandatory Irish so that everyone gets in touch with Irish. The matter of mandatory Irish should be assimilated between the Republic and Northern Ireland, that is limiting mandatory Irish to primary school in the Republic and introducing it in primary school in Northern Ireland. But I suppose that the Unionists will strongly be hostile to it. A few years mandatory Irish assure that every child will get in touch with it.
I suppose that within Ireland it depends on several factors if you get more or less opportunities to use Irish. In Gaeltacht areas, except for the weakest ones, you will get the most of opportunities. In Galway, Maynooth or West Belfast Irish speakers are still better situated than in the rest of Ireland. The worst places will certainly be areas in the centre and southeast of Ireland where Irish language events are tinely distributed. Another point is what job you are doing, if you can use Irish at the workplace and to which extend the working times allow you to get engaged into Irish language activities.
My suggestion for maintaining the Gaeltacht status is the following:
At least 10% daily users outside the classroom. If the figure is lower, I suggest to look at the figures of ability and daily use in the preschool cohort. Within the linguistic study we find far more accurate figures on the command of Irish in contrast to the census. Furthermore a look should be taken onto attitude towards Irish. If the locals in areas below 10% of daily usage are hostile towards it and show a clear will to abandon Irish, then this area is to be removed from the Gaeltacht. But areas where there is a figure of daily usage within the preschool cohort well above the area's average, predominantly is all-Irish schooling and high proportion of competence in Irish as well as positive attitude should at any rate given a chance. For these figures show a potential for recoverage. A slow, but steady recoverage is well realistic if there is a will in a sufficient proportion of the people. Even outside the Gaeltacht areas with available education through Irish show clearly higher percentages of daily usage outside education than those without or only low enrollment into it.
The Galway city "Gaeltacht" is a clear example for an area to remove from the Gaeltacht, for: 4,2% daily usage outside education compared to
3,3 % within the whole city, ~50% with ability in Irish which is nearly the same within the whole city. Finally only 3% of preschool children speak Irish daily. Therefore this area is rather to be included into policies on whole Galway city basis.
But most of Mayo Gaeltacht ought to get a chance as around 10% use Irish daily in most of the districts and around 70 - 80 % still have reasonable competence in Irish. The preschool children often show percentages of usage above the all-age average.
The definition given to the Gaeltacht on the web rather suits only to the fior-Ghaeltacht.

Feicimse an baol mór as olcú an mhargaidh oibre. Ní bheidh sé mar aidhm ag i gcónaí níos mó fostaitheoirí ach airgead chomh leor is féidir a shaothrú ar mhímhaitheas an phobail. Bíonn siad úd in éadan caithimh airgid ar son na Gaeilge go deo. Don néo-libreálachas, is caitheamh amach sa tine é an t-airgead caite ar son na Gaeilge! Fiú amháin, is féidir liom a shamhlú gur mhaith le cuid fostaitheoirí cosc a chur ar úsáid na Gaeilge laistigh na comhlachta.
Ar aghaidh leis an nGaeilge!
Alex

(Message edited by AlexderFranke on December 13, 2009)

Aontaím leat a Thaidhgín
geez it sure gets complicated really fast lol

quote:

Of course. I just provided data showing that Irish is still spoken by hundreds of people in Bearna, so what's your point exactly? Irish is still in lots of places. The question is, while the Gaeltacht is consistently hyped up as a place where 'Irish is the predominant or community language', does Bearna fit that description in 2009? No one said Irish isn't spoken in Bearna. Do you acknowledge this?

You want to define a Gaeltacht as somewhere Irish is stronger than English, you go ahead. You are out of step with most Irish people's understanding of the term though.

Anywhere Irish is spoken widely enough to function as a community language - anywhere you are likely to hear normal people having normal conversations in it, in a non-language-focused setting - most people are happy to continue calling that a Gaeltacht. (There does tend to be a higher standard for willingness to recognize a new Gaeltacht, probably reflective of a feeling that history should have something to do with it as well.)

I hope this helps you understand why you seem to stand so nearly alone in your outrage: you are effectively campaigning to redefine the popular notion of 'Gaeltacht' and redraw the borders to match. Bound to be a bit of a hard sell.

I also find it appalling to think someone who is still in the early learning stages is this opinionated in how to fix it , as for Alexanderfranke's opinons , i think they border on the insane if not against the Law.

I vote for Danny to be the head of the Gaeltacht instead of Éamonn Ó Cuív

VOTÁIL DANNY!

hmm , maybe the Jailtacht , six monthes should be enough ,

quote:

...and yet I went to church in Bearna when I was there last spring, and had no trouble at all finding a knot of Irish speakers ...

I went to a wedding there in July 08 and there was Irish peppered in the Nuptial Mass and the bride's family was first-language Irish.

* * *

My original comments, believe or not, stemmed from myself. I felt the desire to chime in and play god (lower G) with the Gaeltacht, mostly because the discussion is interesting. But then I thought how much I struggle to contribute here and to peoples' blogs and not sound like an ass with bad grammar and word choice. Then I thought of how native speakers may feel when upstarts talk about them when they can't even play by the rules they set for others. Then I thought of all the earnest learners in Ireland who, perhaps, are constantly put down as not being good enough or aren't counted in a Gaeltacht. The topic goes on ... As a learner enters deeper levels of learning, hopefully he gains a better knowledge of those on whose back he's riding on. I'm not against the discussions entirely, just let's match it with actual learning and use of the language in which we are putting ourselves in a position of authority.

I'm not trying to play God with the Gaeltacht ffs. I'm laying out the reasons why I believe certain districts should lose their Gaeltacht status. This was a reply to a thread started by ANOTHER USER, alexerfranke.

For the record, I have NEVER said the Gaeltacht should be restricted to areas where 'Irish is stronger than English'.

quote:

You want to define a Gaeltacht as somewhere Irish is stronger than English, you go ahead. You are out of step with most Irish people's understanding of the term though.

It's not me defining it, Abigail. Keep dodging. The most common definition of the Gaeltacht (see examples provided earlier) is areas where 'Irish is the most predominant community language.' How can Irish be the predominant community language in a town where 5% speak the language habitually? Explain that one. To me, 5% does not constitute the language of the community. It's not even a 'partly Irish speaking district'. It's an area where Irish is fighting just to make it into the top three most used languages in town. How can that be a 'community language' by any definition? I'd feel more confident in declaring Polish a 'community language' in Bearna than Irish, to be honest.

Now you're trying to define a Gaeltacht as anywhere where people converse casually in Irish. Okay, Gaeltacht status for every county in Ireland it is. It's a free for all!

I find these little anecdotes amusing. In response to 'Irish isn't widely spoken in Bearna' people chime in with stories of Irish being heard outside a church. What's the point? That Irish is still spoken in Bearna? No shit. Who said otherwise?

Let me ask you this, if we were back in 1926 and the Gaeltacht was OFFICIALLY being created for the first time, do you think Bearna would be included? I'm talking the Bearna of 2009, of course. 500 speakers in a sea of 12,000 or so souls. No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't for all sorts of reasons. Probably because those tasked with defining the Gaeltacht knew 5% doesn't mean 'Irish speaking district' or 'partly-Irish speaking district'. In the end, 25%+ was the designated minimum for breac-ghaeltachtaí. 5% isn't sustainable.

quote:

Anywhere Irish is spoken widely enough to function as a community language - anywhere you are likely to hear normal people having normal conversations in it, in a non-language-focused setting - most people are happy to continue calling that a Gaeltacht.

Indeed. That's probably why there has only been one major revision of the Gaeltacht boundaries in eighty years.

Abigail, do you think Irish is spoken widely enough in Bearna to function as a community language? Keeping in mind that only 4.8% of residents there claim to speak it outside of school. Irish classes being one of those 'language-focused settings' that you mentioned yourself.

Bearna is an English speaking town for the most part. It's not a Gaeltacht in the traditional sense of the word. It's not even a Gaeltacht in the way that the Gaeltacht is DEFINED by the Government, tourism boards and travel guides.

quote:

My comments are informed by the experience of the last 20-25 years, as someone who grew up in the Cois Fharraige Gaeltacht in south Conamara, and who has seen the language retreat further and further westwards and inwards as the Gaeltacht continues to dwindle. In these few years, I have also seen the last remaining pockets of Gaeltacht in areas such as Bearna, Na Forbacha, Mionlach, Leamhchoill, and Maigh Cuilinn all but disappear, never to return.

- Feargal Ó Béarra, 2007

Now I know what some of you may be thinking. He uses the phrase 'pockets of Gaeltacht'. But I think the point he's making is that in places like Bearna, the language is on the brink. Bearna is not a place people think of when they think of 'the Gaeltacht'.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on December 14, 2009)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on December 14, 2009)

quote:

I hope this helps you understand why you seem to stand so nearly alone in your outrage: you are effectively campaigning to redefine the popular notion of 'Gaeltacht' and redraw the borders to match. Bound to be a bit of a hard sell.

I don't need you to help me understand anything on this one Abigail. If anything, it's you who needs a reality check. The popular notion of the Gaeltacht is an area where Irish is widely heard and spoken. Bearna is no longer such an area and I defy you to prove otherwise. Stories about half a dozen souls outside a church don't cut it.

I at least provide what I consider to be proof:

- Census data
- Data from the Sociolinguistic report
- Opinion from a native speaker of the area
- First hand observation. Anyone walking around Bearna for even an afternoon would be left in no doubt that English is the preferred medium of communication there.

At the same time, I've also highlighted areas where Irish remains relatively strong. I provide sources for this. I don't cherry pick, you see. Good or bad, I'm willing to discuss it.

Consider the following:

You're a first time visitor to Ireland. You know little about the country but want to visit and explore. Having read about the Gaeltacht being an area of great natural beauty and where 'Gaelic/Irish' is the first language, you set off. Driving from Shannon, you eventually arrive in Dingle. You notice signs in an exotic looking language peppered throughout the town. In Garvey's SuperValu, you hear different languages being spoken all around you. As English isn't your mother tongue, it's all a bit overwhelming. The Kerry accent can be tough for some. As you shop, you hear a language which definitely isn't English. Not sure what it is exactly, you ask the cashier. 'Polish, maybe Slovak.'

After three days, you still haven't heard Irish. Your stay in Dingle has been a great place to meet new people and practice your English, but the sounds of Irish seem mysteriously absent. After your stay in Dingle, you head to Killarney and hear Irish being spoken in a pub. It's the first and only time you hear it spoken during your 7 day Kerry adventure.



Keep in mind that not everyone knows that the Gaeltacht is home to different language communities. Gaoth Dobhair and Dingle may both be in the Gaeltacht, but they are strikingly different.

A community language is a language you can't help but hear. Whether a visitor or a local, you will hear it whether you like it or not. It's not a private language used behind closed doors. It's not a language most likely to be heard at weddings, funerals or in classrooms. When you're in an area where Irish is the community language, you know. When you're in Bearna or Dingle, you know.

quote:

I vote for Danny to be the head of the Gaeltacht instead of Éamonn Ó Cuív

VOTÁIL DANNY!

Ó Cuív and co will probably be long gone by the time the Gaeltacht borders are actually redrawn. Good riddance to bad rubbish (referring more to FF rather than Ó Cuív, btw).

(Message edited by Danny2007 on December 14, 2009)

The Difference between you and Abigail is as vast as your lack of Knowledge of the Language, She obviously loves and has a great passion for Irish and her Knowledge of the Language, is something i doubht you will Ever achieve. Abigail has earned the respect of a lot of people on this site and on IGT, myself included, whereas you are nothing more than a fly in the ointment.
I have the strongest suspicions that you will be spouting this same old story this time next year and for years to come, while the rest of us has moved on in the Pursuit of solutions and to improve our love and knowledge of the Language. I guess i can also take some of the blame for contributing to this by replying , as i had the silly thought that you where someway slightly interested in the Language and actually learning but misinformed or misguided, i can see now that is not the case , and will leave you to your rantings and ravings and i will re-join the real learners and real lovers of the Language. I can actually see now why more people dont join in this so called debate , because its a nonsense and im out.

Teifeach, play the ball, not the man.

Danny2007 - my main objection to those with little Irish arguing for one position or another is that most of the data on which to base such an argument is not available in English. There is also a well known and documented effect that those with no Irish who visit a Gaeltacht area hear no Irish - but those with some Irish will hear Irish spoken in the same place.

It's a tricky one.

But I think evolution is more likely to succeed than revolution.

"There is also a well known and documented effect that those with no Irish who visit a Gaeltacht area hear no Irish - but those with some Irish will hear Irish spoken in the same place."

An axiom.

I am sick and tired of people saying Irish is dead here and there when I have friends and collegues in those places who speak Irish.

quote:

Bearna is no longer such an area and I defy you to prove otherwise. Stories about half a dozen souls outside a church don't cut it.

My story was not to serve as a proof of the Gaeltacht status of Bearna, just to offer a real life experience related to what Abigail was saying. I spent a week in County Galway, and I was impressed with the Irish in all the areas (and in all respects, spoken and written) I visited except An Clochán, which I only spent a few hours in. This experience includes Galway, Bearna, Tuaim, and Inis Mór. So, again, just offering my experiences.

Danny, I know you're being hit by all sides, but at least for my comments, you shouldn't construe them as singling out you unless I write your name right before the statement like right now, or a tie it in with your quotes.

quote:

How can Irish be the predominant community language in a town where 5% speak the language habitually? Explain that one.

Danny2007 - spoken Irish is only the tip of the pyramid, tip of the iceberg. Those speaking Irish know it best. In the age-groups below them they understand Irish but prefer to speak English. Throughout the area each and every person reared in the area knows more Irish than is ever measured or evaluated. These are the people who, when faced with education through English for their children in Dublin, choose the Gaelscoil. Their failure to transmit Irish is not deliberate. It is a failure. It happens due to the deluge of English that surrounds them on all sides and now dominates the hearth.

Measured against Huddersfield or Yarmouth or any native-English speaking area one should realise that the iar-Ghaeltacht areas -- even places like Oldcastle in Co Meath or Sligo, North Leitrim, North Cavan, the Sperrin Mountains etc where people will be heard boasting that their Grandmother knew Irish are fertile ground for the revival of Irish. Imagine a school teaching ALL subjects through Irish. If the language were so weak such a school would not be dreamt of nor would it be supported or tolerated. How many such schools are there now throughout Ireland? How many children? How many extended families? Now there's a statistic.

All this talk of Gaeltacht statistics is pure bs. As if it affected us here on Daltaí. Ireland is moving out of the medieval dark ages and is bringing its heritage of Irish with it. Those living abroad and preoccupied with the primitive vestiges of ancient "Gaelic" culture cannot see the wood for the trees.

In any case the statistics are false in many cases. Some people who actually speak Irish pretend to speak only English. People who cannot speak Irish claim that they can.

Of what benefit is this discussion to me who finds difficulty knowing whether to say "Cén uair a chuaigh sé go Gaillimh?" or "Cén uair a ndeachaigh sé?" Any ideas, Danny2007? Could you find it in your book? Ceisteanna?

Incidentally, you may live in Vancouver but your views are very much in line with a particular strand of politics here in Ireland. What colour shirt do you wear?

I wonder are you just having fun at our expense.

quote:

A community language is a language you can't help but hear. Whether a visitor or a local, you will hear it whether you like it or not.

This kind of remark shows a complete lack of understanding of the Irish language, a language that has had to survive by not being heard, but by being kept underground for decade upon decade. Applying pseudo-scientific statistical analysis as Danny does over and over again about the state of the Irish language is at best a futile exercise, and at worst a nauseating experience for all.

I disagree Bodhrán. I heard more Irish than English in Baile na nGall, Chorca Dhuibhne. This is in line with the census data which shows that Irish is widely spoken outside of classrooms in that particular community. On the other hand, Irish is rarely heard in Bearna. I certainly didn't hear it and plenty of people have said the same. This low level of Irish usage is in line with the census data which shows that most people don't speak Irish outside of the classroom in the town. Indeed, almost half the population there indicated no ability to speak the language at all! Is this 'pseudo-scientific statistical analysis' or are you simply unable to accept that Irish has severely declined in certain areas? Like to even acknowledge this seems to be too much for some of you? Why?

Taidhgín,

I acknowledge your comments and know where you're coming from. But since you quoted my question, would you consider tackling it?

quote:

How can Irish be the predominant community language in a town where 5% speak the language habitually?

I'm not talking about potential. I'm literally asking if a particular language can be considered a community language when the vast majority of the citizens of THE COMMUNITY claim that they don't speak it. 5%, Taidhgín. This all started with a reference to the more extreme examples of communities which are now mostly English speaking and whether they should retain Gaeltacht status. It was never about the viability of the language in the Gaeltacht as a whole. I hope people understand that. The Gaeltacht carries on, but I think it's time to let go of the Bearnas and Achills of the world. That's all.

quote:

Those living abroad and preoccupied with the primitive vestiges of ancient "Gaelic" culture cannot see the wood for the trees.

Not sure if that's directed at anyone in particular, but believe me, the Gaeltacht is as 'modern' as anywhere else in the country. As I imagine you know. Nice new houses, satelitte dishes, American TV etc etc. The Gaeltacht in 2009 is thoroughly modern and fully bilingual.

quote:

In any case the statistics are false in many cases. Some people who actually speak Irish pretend to speak only English. People who cannot speak Irish claim that they can.

And I contend you dismiss it as bs because it doesn't sit well with you. At any rate, those who claim to speak Irish when they don't far outnumber those who pretend to only know English. I'll bet you €50 right now that that's true. Up for it? What's to be gained by feigning ignorance of Irish? Is this the 1851 census all over again? I don't buy it.

quote:

There is also a well known and documented effect that those with no Irish who visit a Gaeltacht area hear no Irish - but those with some Irish will hear Irish spoken in the same place.

I didn't experience this. I heard lots of Irish in some places and no Irish in others. They all had one thing in common though. All were designated as being in the 'Gaeltacht'. My theory is quite far out, but bear with me. Irish is heard in places where it's widely spoken. Sort of like how English is heard in places where it's widely spoken. Crazy, innit? Irish is not heard (or very rarely heard and by chance) in places where it's confined to individual families, schools, or social networks. Or a combination of all three. But it's interesting to know that some people will still try to explain it away with the old 'if you knew Irish, you'd hear it.'

quote:

I am sick and tired of people saying Irish is dead here and there when I have friends and collegues in those places who speak Irish.

Anyone who says Irish is dead is a fool. Irish is anything but dead. On the other hand, someone who says Irish is rarely spoken in parts of the official Gaeltacht is probably on the mark. You can have friends and colleagues who speak Irish in Dublin but that doesn't mean Dublin is a predominantly Irish speaking city. It's the same with Bearna.

Aonghus,

quote:

my main objection to those with little Irish arguing for one position or another is that most of the data on which to base such an argument is not available in English.

I merely share the views of people such as Seosamh Mac Donnacha and Conchúr Ó Giollagáin. They are two of the foremost experts on the contemporary Gaeltacht. And they speak Irish fluently. I am merely one of those lesser human beings who doesn't speak Irish well (to say the least). So whatever not-so-subtle jabs that some of you are sending my way can't be used against these individuals. You can't explain it away as 'rantings and ravings'. You can't discount everyone as a Blueshirt, as much as it might comfort some of you.

quote:

"The prognosis for the Gaeltacht, if current trends and practices continue, is not good."

- Seosamh Mac Donnacha, 2003

Treason!

quote:

Seosamh is originally from An Cheathrú Rua.

He is responsible for the development of third level education through Irish and language planning. He has a particular interest in pursuing research into organisational and strategic aspects of language planning. He spent some time working on developing language policies in his role as policy co-ordination manager with Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge.

Acadamh na hOllscolaíochta Gaeilge
http://www.nuigalway.ie/administration_services/acadamh//faoin_acadamh/foireann/ Bainistiocht/Seosamh_Mac_Donnacha/index_irish.html

He was involved in the groundbreaking sociolinguistic report into the use of Irish in the Gaeltacht.

Significantly, Bearna was not classed as either a Category A, B or C Gaeltacht. This was a classification devised by the research team. If such a system were to be implemented, Bearna would be left out of the Gaeltacht.

I don't mean to pick on the good people of Bearna, but it's arguably the most obvious example of a community which is living on former 'glories' in terms of the Irish language. It's an example of all that's wrong with the Gaeltacht and the outright failure of some communities to:

a) convince newcomers to use Irish (in other words, to adopt what was at one time the main language of the community)
b) to retain Irish as the language of choice amongst the majority of young people
c) to pass on Irish from generation to generation on a large scale

quote:

Incidentally, you may live in Vancouver but your views are very much in line with a particular strand of politics here in Ireland. What colour shirt do you wear?

I wonder are you just having fun at our expense.

This isn't a joke to me. This is an issue I'm seriously interested in and fascinated by. It may seem odd to some, but I can't help but be interested by it. I'm interested in languages period and Irish is one of the most fascinating of all.

What are my views Taidhgín? Are you going to throw me in with the idiotic 'Irish is dead' crowd because I call it as I see it? I have nothing but contempt for such people and I've had more run ins with them than I care to remember.

I can summarise my views like this:

The Gaeltacht as defined over fifty years years ago has changed forever. In some cases, what were once vibrant Irish speaking communities are now in the final stages of language shift. So long as the Gaeltacht is commonly defined as an area where 'Irish is the predominantly community language' or where 'Irish is widely spoken', then those communities should lose their status. Just as parts of Mayo and all of the Clare Gaeltacht lost their status in 1956. The world didn't end. Those communities are still Irish, just less Irish speaking.

That's all I'm really saying. I'm not calling for the Gaeltacht to be torn asunder. I'm not questioning the value of Irish. I'm not ignoring the existence of Irish speakers throughout the Gaeltacht, whether they're found in the suburbs of Galway or in the heart of Conamara.

Finally, this is a current affairs topic. The 20 Year Strategy for Irish was only released recently. The Gaeltacht features prominently. I'm not intruding into peoples threads spamming. I responded to a post made by another user which was completely ON-TOPIC. You can dismiss me if you want but you'll not dismiss the Mac Donnachas or Ó Béarras or Ó hÉallaithes of the world quite so easily.

Danny2007, fair points about the quotes. And I agree with you that the situation is grave.

I agree that the offical Gaeltacht needs to be re-imagined.

I'd need to check about the categorisation of Bearna. However, the report was based on Electoral Districts, and I'm not sure that Bearna forms one on its own.

By the way, Feargal Ó Béarra posted on this site complaining about his views being taken out of context to support a simplistic view of the position of Irish!

quote:

Tá an ceart aige. Níl ionamsa ach tráchtaire. Níl agamsa ach mar is léir dom féin an scéal agus ní cóir (ach coir!) do dhaoine bheith ag tabhairt sleachta móra fada as an méid a scríobh mé mar thaca leis an leagan amach simplí (gan Ghaeilge) atá acu féin ar an scéal. Diabhal aithne nach cineál manifesto acu an méid a scríobhas.

I gcead don chomhluadar, feictear dom gurbh fhearrde an Ghaeilge dá gcaití níos mó ama á foghlaim seachas ag síorchaint ar 'Béarlachas'.

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/show.pl?tpc=13510&post=85692 #POST85692

(I'll translate if you like)

The strategy calls for linguistically weak communities coming up with a plan to improve or stabilise the situation. If that fails, then they will be outside the Gaeltacht.

Gerrymandering the Gaeltacht will help no-one.

Éamón Ó Cuív made a strong point about Donncha Ó hEallaithe's frequent (incessant) calls to remove parts of Galway city from the Gaeltacht.
1) Very little Gaeltacht money is spent there, and what is is directly tied to language projects.

2) It is unrealistic to think that removing population from the Gaeltacht will not lead to a corresponding decrease in the budget for the Gaeltacht.

Aonghus, Feargal Ó Béarra's PDF, written in English, was plain enough in its meaning. It is a very long article, the meaning of which will be clear to monoglot English speakers. People can use his arguments to support their own views in any way they wish. His views were certainly not taken out of context - the context was a very long PDF in English - and English speakers will not need to take it out of context to read it.

"feictear dom gurbh fhearrde an Ghaeilge dá gcaití níos mó ama á foghlaim seachas ag síorchaint ar 'Béarlachas'."

In other words more time should be spent on studying Irish than constant talking about Anglicisms in Irish. Well, there is too much "talking around" the language on Daltaí. I prefer the questions about the language itself - eg recently once about "a dh'" before a verbal noun, rather than the interminable discussion of how/when/why to revive Irish.

But as a point of fact, Feargal's PDF showed clearly that much of what Irish is being learned today is of poor quality, and not traditional Irish. He used the term "late traditional Irish" in his article and contrasted that with non-traditional Irish. He can't take the words back or insist that people do not try to use the points he made in their own conversations. Me thinks he doth protest too much.

Without doubt the amount of Irish spoken within the Gaeltacht in total has been declining in recent decades. This is obvious from several sources. Nevertheless areas with a level significantly above the national average with regard to ability and daily usage should be kept in the Gaeltacht in order not to give up too quickly.
The problem is largely the inmigration of English-only speakers which could effectively be limited by Irish-only policies in the Gaeltacht. I am sure that some of those will leave the Gaeltacht when that will be acted upon. Such a change, however, needs the support of great proportion of the locals.

Galway city districts should at any rate taken out of the official Gaeltacht. Supposedly by migration and mobility across the city the level of spoken Irish in the "Gaeltacht" districts has assimilated to the average of Galway city and should be included simply into policies for Galway city as a whole. For Bearna I would suggest to keep Gaeltacht status only for that part outside of Galway city.

Go cinnte go bhfuil caighdeán uafásach na Gaeilge ag roinnt cainteoirí lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht, go háirithe timpeall Bhaile Átha Cliath. Mar sin, is gá na cainteoirí dúchais a tharraingt isteach chuig greásán na Gaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht.

Ar aghaidh leis an nGaeilge!
Alex

This is just my opinion. I don't have any statistics to back it up.

I believe the native population of Bearna, those that have lived there for generations, still have the same level of Irish,and actually growing within that group. But the problem Bearna has is its close proximity to Galway City. It's now a surburb/dormer town of the City and with that a huge influx of English speakers. That's why English speakers outnumber the Irish speakers not so much that Irish itself is declining.
I believe if Bearna were further from Galway City that 5% of Irish speakers would actually be closer to 70% or more. And a much smaller village without the blow-ins.

Looks way more Reasonable , and i would believe a Local , way above any so called Statistics, Statistics can be manipulated any way at all to support almost any theory even given they were did right in thr first place.

Christianity started with one man and a bunch of poor fishers. Irish doesn't need anything but a passionate love in the heart, action guided by the head, and don't work against God's grace. Enough said.

quote:

Statistics can be manipulated any way at all to support almost any theory even given they were did right in thr first place.

Teifeach,
I agree with this. One of my favorite books is "The Art of Deception" by Nicholas Capaldi and Miles Smit. It is a book on reasoning, but takes the opposite line -- it gives you the perspective of how people try to deceive others. Statistics can be true, but presented in certain ways to form an opinion. A simple one is choosing a larger (or more extreme) number. ".000000000000001% of the population have died due to complications from the H1N1 virus." OR " There have been over 11,000 deaths since the outbreak of the H1N1 pandemic." Both are true, but they form a different conception in the mind of the reader/listener. Just take the recent example of the ClimateGate scandal!!!

Nota bene, I am not accusing anyone here of doing this, just pointing out that presentations of statistic often will be reported in a biased manner on both sides. Rarely (never?) is raw data delivered without a bias.

quote:

By the way, Feargal Ó Béarra posted on this site complaining about his views being taken out of context to support a simplistic view of the position of Irish!

Is this the same Feargal Ó Béarra who said 'I believe Irish is now moribund'? Even I thought he was being too hard on Irish (esp. learners) in that essay.

quote:

Tá an ceart aige. Níl ionamsa ach tráchtaire. Níl agamsa ach mar is léir dom féin an scéal agus ní cóir (ach coir!) do dhaoine bheith ag tabhairt sleachta móra fada as an méid a scríobh mé mar thaca leis an leagan amach simplí (gan Ghaeilge) atá acu féin ar an scéal. Diabhal aithne nach cineál manifesto acu an méid a scríobhas.

I gcead don chomhluadar, feictear dom gurbh fhearrde an Ghaeilge dá gcaití níos mó ama á foghlaim seachas ag síorchaint ar 'Béarlachas'.

Aonghus,
Can I take you up on your offer of a translation?

quote:

The strategy calls for linguistically weak communities coming up with a plan to improve or stabilise the situation. If that fails, then they will be outside the Gaeltacht.

I think I can see where this is going. It's a plan to do nothing. It calls for a two year grace period (IIRC). It will be YEARS and YEARS before the boundaries change, if they change at all. We will be left with areas that are just as English speaking as the Galltacht by then. Why should they be treated differently? That's a fair question Irish speakers in the Galltacht should be asking. How many more plans and studies and reports does Irish need anyway?

The whole thing smacks of tokenism at its worst. But that has been State policy for most of the last eighty years or so.

quote:

And a much smaller village without the blow-ins.

Those pesky blow-ins, eh? What we need is a Great Wall to separate the fíor-ghaels and the rest of the country.
;D

And then we have Alexerfranke...

quote:

The problem is largely the inmigration of English-only speakers which could effectively be limited by Irish-only policies in the Gaeltacht. I am sure that some of those will leave the Gaeltacht when that will be acted upon.

Drive them out! Níor mhór an Béarla a ruaigeadh as saol na hÉireann agus an Ghaeilge a chur i réim ina áit!
We need these people to leave the Gaeltacht! Never mind trying to casually persuade (rather than coerce) them to use Irish, tis better to just come up with policies that exclude them from living in parts of their own country! Success awaits!

quote:

Such a change, however, needs the support of great proportion of the locals.

Right. So...it's unlikely that the majority of locals (who use English as their main or only language, remember) will support a policy which effectively discriminates themselves.

I think it's a red herring. What excuse will you use for north Mayo or Múscraí? Are these hot spots for 'blow-ins' from other parts of the country? Or for immigrants? Surely there's no chance that some Irish speakers have simply stopped using it with their children? Unthinkable! What we need is a scapegoat. The British are gone from most of the island so that won't do. Any other suggestions? Let's see...*counting fingers*...we've got blow-ins, foreigners, English-only speakers...what about Travellers? Dubs? Dublin is always to blame for something. That might work.

quote:

I am not accusing anyone here of doing this, just pointing out that presentations of statistic often will be reported in a biased manner on both sides. Rarely (never?) is raw data delivered without a bias.

Fantastic. There's also Occam's razor and the old adage that "if it walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then....". Modify as necessary.

Do you believe statistics are being manipulated in the case of Bearna, seánw?

It's an extract from a much longer post which I am too lazy to translate.

Tá an ceart aige. Níl ionamsa ach tráchtaire. Níl agamsa ach mar is léir dom féin an scéal agus ní cóir (ach coir!) do dhaoine bheith ag tabhairt sleachta móra fada as an méid a scríobh mé mar thaca leis an leagan amach simplí (gan Ghaeilge) atá acu féin ar an scéal. Diabhal aithne nach cineál manifesto acu an méid a scríobhas.

He [Taidhgín] is correct. I am only a reporter. I only have my own view of the situation and it is not just (but criminal!) for people to take long passages from what I wrote to back up their own simplistic (without Gaeilge) view of the matter. It almost appears that what I wrote is some kind of manifesto for them.

I gcead don chomhluadar, feictear dom gurbh fhearrde an Ghaeilge dá gcaití níos mó ama á foghlaim seachas ag síorchaint ar 'Béarlachas'.

With respect to the company, it seems to me that Irish would be better off if more time was spent learning it rather than always talking about 'Béarlachas'

quote:

I'd need to check about the categorisation of Bearna. However, the report was based on Electoral Districts, and I'm not sure that Bearna forms one on its own.

In the Sociolinguistic report, there are two. One is standalone, the other is Bearna-Galway Co. Bor. Presumably that's the one that's in pretty much in Galway city itself. The census data in the report is based on the 2002 Census. In Bearna (ED44), the percentage of daily speakers was 24.7%. In Bearna-Galway Co. Bor. (#3) the percentage was 17%. The 2002 Census does NOT DIFFERENTIATE between those who speak Irish daily in school only, those who speak it inside and outside of school, and those who speak it outside of school only. It only differentiates between 'daily speakers', 'weekly speakers', 'less often', 'never' etc.

This is key. The 2006 Census was the first to include questions on both FREQUENCY and CONTEXT. Unfortunately, the sociolinguistic report was already nearing completion by the time the 2006 Census was done.

Anyone who takes the time to compare the two will see that the population has grown considerably. Something in the range of 5,000. That's the ED that I covered earlier. The one with a population of around 12,000 and 575 or so reported habitual Irish speakers. 4.8%.

For the ED further west of Galway city (ED#44), the Age 3+ population was 2,885. In 2002 it was 2,367. Again, another large increase.

The number of people who claimed to speak Irish daily outside of the education system was 269.

269/2,885 = 9.3%

4.8% in the Bearna-Galway City ED and 9.3% in what I'll call west-Bearna. Almost twice as high in percentage terms. But still under 10%.

Taken together you have a combined population of 14,937. (12,052 + 2,885)

Habitual speakers: 578+269 = 847

847/14,937 = 5.7%

http://beyond2020.cso.ie/censusasp/saps/pages/Select_Theme_Live.asp?Request_nbr= 226564

14,000 people is very large in terms of the Gaeltacht. We shouldn't underestimate the effect this has on the Gaeltacht in terms of looking at Gaeltacht-wide data.
And that doesn't even include Claregalway or Moycullen. These areas constitute a HUGE chunk of the Gaeltacht population.

quote:

Do you believe statistics are being manipulated in the case of Bearna, seánw?

Straightforwardly, I don't know and I don't care. I wasn't making that case. I think the status of Bearna should be up to the people of Bearna and the people of Ireland. I think it is foolish when someone thinks they know something about where I live because they've seen "The OC" or "The Real Housewives of Orange County" or went to Disneyland. There's too much reality beyond that. The facts on Bearna either way don't affect my status as a foreigner who wants to learn more Irish.

quote:

He [Taidhgín] is correct. I am only a reporter. I only have my own view of the situation and it is not just (but criminal!) for people to take long passages from what I wrote to back up their own simplistic (without Gaeilge) view of the matter.

What's simplistic? People keep using that word. Now is the time to explain why.

Of course it's only his view. I have my own view too. I find it odd that he'd complain when he's the one who stated that 'Irish is now moribund'. The essay was thought provoking and call me crazy but I give more credence when it comes from a native speaker from the area in question. The first thing Mr. Ó Béarra writes in his essay is that he's from the area.

As for 'Béarlachas', I don't really care. That's not my thing and I'm not particularly bothered by it. It's something I've rarely discussed on Daltaí (seems more a Lughaidh thing), but the reason I originally quoted it way back when was because of how forceful Feargal Ó Béarra made his points.

quote:

Much of what passes for Irish language broadcasting on TG4 and RTÉ is presented by non-native speakers who insist on pronouncing Irish with English phonology, English syntax and idiomatic conventions. The two best-known are Hector and Manchán, two of TG4’s most popular ‘stars’. However, the killer of all this is that people keep saying that they love these programmes because they can follow the Irish. That speaks volumes. If the truth be told, if these people were to speak English the way they speak Irish, they would be ridiculed and severely condemned.

quote:

The other main difference between this period of change and all others is that the Irish language is at death’s door. Some, like myself, would contend that the language is moribund. Many – such as Government ministers – will even attempt to (though they should not) deny that the Gaeltacht itself is doomed to die. Think of this: how can a language which needs its own official Act and its own Language Commissioner to protect it from the government of the State in which it is the first official language, not be doomed to die?

THE QUOTES ABOVE ARE NOT MY WORDS. So tell me how they've been taken out of context? What's simplistic about saying that parts of the 'Gaeltacht' aren't really Gaeltacht any more and using quotes from a native speaker from the area to back it up. Is that unreasonable?

Feargal Ó Béarra, if you're reading this feel free to come back and explain your stance. I'm not the one saying 'Irish is at death's door'. 'Irish is moribund.' I'm saying the Gaeltacht boundaries are outdated. Period. That's a far cry from 'Irish is at death's door.' 'The Gaeltacht is doomed to die'. And I'm the one being accused of pessimism!!?

Yes I have to agree with the other user who said thou doth protest too much.

quote:

Straightforwardly, I don't know and I don't care.

Finally, an admission.

quote:

I think the status of Bearna should be up to the people of Bearna and the people of Ireland.

The people of Bearna seem to have made that choice by using English instead of Irish, for the most part. People make language choices every day. How do you think Ireland got to the point it's at today? Are you a bit of a romantic dreamer?

quote:

I think it is foolish when someone thinks they know something about where I live because they've seen "The OC" or "The Real Housewives of Orange County" or went to Disneyland. There's too much reality beyond that.

But we aren't talking about a fictitious television show, seán. Census data, data from the Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge, a two year sociolinguistic report carried out by a team of Irish speaking experts on the Gaeltacht, damning quotes from a linguist and native speaker from Cois Fhairrge, first hand observation...A pattern emerges. That's reality but you keep trying to explain it all away.

quote:

The facts on Bearna either way don't affect my status as a foreigner who wants to learn more Irish.

That's good. I doubt that was ever the point of Alexerfranke's thread. It certainly doesn't affect me personally either.

Danny007, do you think it would be a good idea to introduce fines for anyone caught speaking English in a designated Gaeltacht area?

quote:

But we aren't talking about a fictitious television show, seán. Census data ...

I wasn't being literal, I was showing how preconceived notions can be supported or formed through incomplete data. This is called illustration. The examples I gave have some reality to them, but just some, as do the statistics.

So here's a statistical fact related to my home.

A full 60% of residents in the metropolitan Los Angeles area speak another language at home besides English. Most of this is Spanish, and a good number of these folks are illegal immigrants. Some reactionaries might cite this statistic to alarm the "natives" that they're are losing their precious English language and culture. The other end would cite it to say they are the majority and how we should open the borders and be done with it all. Reality is much more complex than this simple majority statistic. The statistic only classified people by one factor they have in common. Having lived here most of my life, and having deep knowledge of how we live down here, I can simply say that 99.99% of that population will be English speaking and assimilated into southern California culture either by themselves or through their children. This group is slow to assimilate, and there are economic question involved, but the simple reality not shown in the figure is that almost everyone takes English and almost everyone's children do not maintain the parent language here. Moral: Statistics do not tell the whole story, nor can they predict something as unpredictble as the future. Or to quote stocks: past performance does not guarantee future results.

Probably a more interesting discussion would be theorizing what a Gaeltacht border change would do to the lives of the people and the use of the Irish language.

Anois, imigh leat agus foghlaim Gaeilge, le do thoil.

quote:

Danny007, do you think it would be a good idea to introduce fines for anyone caught speaking English in a designated Gaeltacht area?

Prison sentences, at the very least.

How about this idea?

Pay people to speak their mother tongue. In this case, Irish. Oh wait, THEY ALREADY DO!!! Wish I could get in on a sweet deal like that.

Here's another little nugget. There are District Electoral Divisions (DEDs) where not a single family has received the deontas in the past TEN YEARS. On the other hand, hundreds of households in the fíor-ghaeltachtaí receive them annually. Over 90% in some DEDs. Why? Because Irish is actually spoken widely there.

*DEDs vary widely in terms of population size. From a couple dozen (some DEDs are partly in the Gaeltacht-partly in the Galltacht) to many hundreds, to a couple thousand.

Should DEDs where there are virtually no Irish speaking households with children remain in the Gaeltacht?

(Message edited by Danny2007 on December 15, 2009)

seánw,

quote:

I was showing how preconceived notions can be supported or formed through incomplete data.

That doesn't apply here.

'preconceived notion - an opinion formed beforehand without adequate evidence.'

The only notion I ever had was that I'd be going to an area which is promoted as an 'Irish speaking region'. That's it. I wasn't walking around with a feckin clipboard saying '68.328328% of people here should be speaking Irish. Golly, where are they all?'

The evidence is overwhelming that Irish is not widely spoken in Bearna. It's one of the most anglicised communities in all the Gaeltacht. Do you accept this or do you believe the various sources I've covered in the course of this thread are faulty? Do you think people are lying?

You have said yourself that you don't know enough about the situation. You don't care either. No problem.

quote:

Probably a more interesting discussion would be theorizing what a Gaeltacht border change would do to the lives of the people and the use of the Irish language.

Out of curiosity, are you in any way familiar with the main criticims of language policy in Ireland? I'm not talking about the illogical rantings of the 'Irish is dead, useless, let's take it out of the schools altogether' crowd. I'm talking about the reasonable, sober criticisms. The people who may not be personally invested in the Irish language, but who don't have anything against it per se. I've had numerous discussions with such people on other forums (mainly politics.ie).

The historian J.J. Lee described it as follows:

quote:

[t]he whole fetid system of favouritism associated with language knowledge, as distinct from language use, inevitably left its mark, stamping the most idealistic and most important task undertaken by the new state as yet one more sleazy political racket.

There is a system in place in the Gaeltacht which effectively pays people if they are able to speak a particular language in the home. In most cases, it's their mother tongue. This is anathema to some. You have people on this very board who are in favour of 'Irish-only policies' in the Gaeltacht. Even though Irish is a minority language WITHIN the Gaeltacht (as it currently stands..). Policies which would made it very difficult if not impossible for Irish citizens from living in parts of their own country based on linguistic criteria. Even though many of the locals don't use Irish either! It just reeks of tokenism.

To bring it back to your question, you ask what a change to the Gaeltacht borders would do for the Irish language?

I think it would regain some credibility for the language in the eyes of those currently outside the language community. Future Irish speakers must come from the ranks of English only speakers, first and foremost. I also think it would serve as a wake up call.

seán, do you know how many years it took for Ráth Chairn to gain official Gaeltacht status? They're happy to leave the borders unchanged for decades on end as the language continued to decline, yet they were slow to bestow official Gaeltacht status to a real, vibrant Irish speaking community which carries on to this day.

Do you have an opinion as to why the Gaeltacht boundaries have only been altered on a large scale once in the past eighty three years? Any guesses?

Danny2007 said:

quote:

Ultimately it doesn't matter what we want here on Daltaí, it will either happen or it won't.

I agree, so why all the exercise for no benefit. Like I said, then let's get on with something we can do something about.

If you are thinking in this way, that it happens anyway, then every discussion on every matter is nonsense. I have written to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and laid down my point of view. If many more people will be doing, it is more likely that it will have an impact.

"Drive them out! Níor mhór an Béarla a ruaigeadh as saol na hÉireann agus an Ghaeilge a chur i réim ina áit!
We need these people to leave the Gaeltacht! Never mind trying to casually persuade (rather than coerce) them to use Irish, tis better to just come up with policies that exclude them from living in parts of their own country! Success awaits!"
Yes, I am again the evil amadán! In many countries or regions with the language of the majority as sole language of the public life is simply normal. Immigrants there have simply to learn the language, if they like it or not. Why not normalizing Irish in communities where there is enough support for it and/or giving self-administration to the Gaeltacht like Catalonia in Spain? In fior-Ghaeltachts or in the Gaeltacht as a whole, this could work. Nobody can force people to speak or not to speak a language privately. Such tendencies are to be found in totalitarian systems. But in public life and in contact with locals it is quite normal that immigrants have to acculturate.

I have not said that it is the English-only speaking immigrants only that had an impact on the decline of Irish in the Gaeltacht. But in some districts this is certainly the main factor which is stated in several statements, too. In Mayo, I suppose, it is rather the factor that many locals have ceased to speak Irish daily.

Yes, to some degree it is true that many Irish have by themselves abandonned the Irish language. Especially after abolishing penal laws against Irish, the free choice has been to the Irish themselves and still is. Within most Gaeltacht districts a change of language choice is easily possible. The Welsh had chosen not to let Welsh decline further.

Ar aghaigh leis an nGaeilge agus go n-éirí bhur nGaeilge libh! Alex

- "Where would you place An Rinn on the spectrum - I have never visited ?"
- "Ring and most of mayo don't even deserve weak Gaeltacht status."

Dia Dhaoibh,

I haven't read the full thread (and have never posted before), but just wanted to comment on the above and give my own observations re. an Rinn (as a non native resident)

- There is far more Gaoluinn spoken locally than I had been led to believe from reading and listening to people with similar views as those expressed in the response posted above.
- There really are a lot of Irish speaking families here, with a significant amount of young children being raised through Irish (or at least in bilingual households).
These children are noticeably very fluent (even with the American TV bits added! :) )
- All local schools (Secondary + 2 primary + CnaRinne) teach through an extremely high standard of Gaoluinn . (+ Naoinra + after school service)

Almost exclusive use of Gaoluinn in the following...
- All local community meetings, socials and all major events in the local halla pobail (Nollaig, Oiche shamhna srl.)
- Local GAA club (during games, training, club meetings srl.)
- Some local businesses
- Local youthclubs/youthgroups

Other Language supports (due to great work by local Áisitheoir Teanga and others)
Language Classes at various levels, Ciorcal Comhra, Language Planning srl.

Gaeilge in Pubs, Shops etc.
Really depends on who you meet.. but certainly there are some native speakers working in these ..

An Rinn is indeed a small Gaeltacht and is not without it's challanges (not least the loss of funding for much needed support roles) and certainly there are people here (both 'blow ins' and locals) who have negative views towards the language.
On the other hand, there are many positives, Speakers of a unique, lovely sounding and easily understandable dialect. People with a great sense of heritage and knowledge of history, folklore and music. More importantly, people who want their children to have the same.. and actively ensure that they do.


So if all of the above means that an Rinn doesn't "even deserve weak Gaeltacht status", then fair enough (I'm no expert in such matters) , but I'd certainly like to know what does?

What I do know is that I don't have to wander too far from my house to end up in a comhrá with some like minded local! :)

ar aon nós, tá sé thar am dom an ríomhaire seo a chur a chodladh agus mé fhéinigh a mhúchadh! :)
Oíche Mhaith.

A Dhuine gan ainm, is amhlaidh go bhfuil galar Hindley [nach raibh ar féin, dála an scéil] tógtha ag mórán saoithe anseo!

UP Rinn Ó gCuanach, agus go raibh maith agat as do thuarisc.

Maith thú, a UnReg. Táim cinnte go bhféadfadh go leor áiteanna ar fud na Gaeltachta foghlaim ón Rinn a bhfuil ar siúl agaibh. Tá éacht déanta ag pobal na Rinne agus an tSean-Phobail gur choinnigh siad an Ghaelainn beo agus go labhraíonn sibh os comhair an tsaoil í ag ocáidí poiblí. Is iontach an rud é sin. Molaim sibh. Go raibh maith agat as do theachtaireacht. Nára fada uainn go ndúisí tú an ríomhaire sin agat arís

Conchubhar1 was way off when they said Rinn doesn't deserve Gaeltacht status. Anyone who looks at the data can see that it does. Posts by unReg merely reinforce that. Thanks for your post. Bearna should follow their lead.

quote:

But in public life and in contact with locals it is quite normal that immigrants have to acculturate.

Sure, in some countries. In some places. But in the main you're talking about OTHER IRISH CITIZENS moving into the Gaeltacht. These people aren't immigrants. Sure, you have people from other countries too, but other Irish people make up the bulk of the 'blow-ins'. And you've the locals who have switched over to English only somewhere down along the line too.

quote:

Within most Gaeltacht districts a change of language choice is easily possible.

Almost anything is possible, but eventually one has to wonder if that long awaited change will ever occur? Is the will there for such a change to occur? The story for the past eighty plus years in the Gaeltacht has been one of language decline, unfortunately. For years, population decline too.

But this is an exciting new era for Irish and if it's ever going to happen, now's the time. A lot of the old excuses can't be used anymore. There are so many perks to using Irish in Ireland nowadays (both financial and otherwise).

There are well over 1 million self-proclaimed Irish speakers in the country. Yet the main excuse is that 'there is nowhere to speak Irish. No one to speak it with.' Maybe the blame rests with the people themselves who aren't making the opportunities? Something is seriously wrong when you have 1.3 million supposed Irish speakers but only 72,000 speak it every single day.

I know if I were resident in Ireland I'd have a strong sense of urgency in learning the language ASAP. When you're far far away, it's hard to build and keep momentum.

A big issue in all Gaeltacht areas (and for which I have no solution) is Gaeltacht people returning with family from abroad - often England.

Sometimes teh families pick up Irish, other times - and particularly in marginal Gaeltachts, they don't.

They are part of the community, and that has to be dealt with. I believe the plan foresees the kind of langauge preparatory scholls used in Wales in such cases - that would be helpful.

Aonghus,

Can you comment on the issue of emigration? Is it rearing its ugly head again? It seems to be a fairly hot topic over on politics.ie. I doubt it's as bad as the dark days of the 80s, but my impression (which is only an impression) is that many younger people (20-35ish) are leaving again in large numbers. This includes people who had left Ireland, returned in the late 90s or early 2000s thinking the worst was over, and are now leaving for distant shores once again. Often here in Canada and Australia. And the US, of course.

It's sad reading all the comments saying 'I'm never coming back to this God-forsaken island.' 'Never should have returned.' 'Nothing but crooks in our Government.'
The amount of frustration and bile is astounding at times.

Lenihan and co may be saying 'we are on the road to recovery' but a lot of people don't seem convinced. I wonder what effect this will have on the Gaeltacht? Supposedly there were entire GAA clubs in parts of south Conamara that were unable to field teams because all the young men had left. This was in the 80s. Emigration is arguably the single most destructive force when it comes to Irish.

quote:

Is it rearing its ugly head again?

Probably. I wouldn't even rule it out for myself. (Having been an emigrant from 1990-2000).

Don't have any hard facts though.

It's budget time, so anger levels are high anyway.

Yes, emigration is a damokles sword. The economy crisis has to be converted to an advantage for the Gaeltacht. The outpricing of locals on the property market is likely to be halted. The cultural tourism could be an advantage. I hope that there will not be huge cutbacks on Irish language matters. The image of Irish to provide quite secure jobs could be a chance so that this will encourage people to make efforts to keep Irish or to learn it properly.
Otherwise a new depopulation might mean the definite end of the Gaeltacht.
Tá súil agam nach mbeidh an Éireann ag dul chun donais i bhfad níos mó agus ag éirí chomh bocht is a raibh sí 20 bliain ó shin.
Alex

"There are well over 1 million self-proclaimed Irish speakers in the country. Yet the main excuse is that 'there is nowhere to speak Irish. No one to speak it with.' Maybe the blame rests with the people themselves who aren't making the opportunities? Something is seriously wrong when you have 1.3 million supposed Irish speakers but only 72,000 speak it every single day."

But you know that these proclaims are trash. The real figure is 400.000 - 500.000 on the whole island of whom 100.000 are native speakers.
The excuse of rare opportunities to make use of Irish is credible for those living in rather rural areas outside the Gaeltacht and not having Irish speakers at work. In rather rural areas there is often no Irish language group available. In urban and Gaeltacht areas you will have more opportunities to speak Irish.

"I know if I were resident in Ireland I'd have a strong sense of urgency in learning the language ASAP. When you're far far away, it's hard to build and keep momentum."

Yes, outside the main areas of Irish Americans speakers are dispersed all over Northern America which makes it rare to meet any Irish speaker. In Ireland itself, it is to the parents to have their children get in touch with Irish as something not being exotic. It is too much to expect all parents outside the Gaeltacht to use Irish as the home language. But what about giving children books for children in Irish and/or singing songs in Irish with them. If the parents have little Irish, somebody of the relatives certainly will be able to read and sing in Irish.

Ach go brónach, is é Béarla na hÉireann a dteanga féin dar le go leor Éireannach inniu agus ní mhothaíonn siad dlúthcheangail leis an nGaeilge go fóill.
Alex

Wow, I wish I had been able to follow the thread as it developed instead of having to read it like a book...LOL

One of the things that I have noticed, or should I say noticed the lack of, is mention of the internet, its impact, and the potential for a virtual gaeltacht?

Lets face it, there is no city in Ireland with over 100,000 Irish speakers who speak, or want to speak it daily. However, with the internet, in a virtual gaeltacht, not only can you have thousands of people from all over, but you have a greater chance of running into an environmnet that is Irish friendly.

While I reserve my right to complain about it later, I honestly feel that the internet has done more the Irish language in terms exposing and promoting the language in the last 20 years than any other person or program has in the last 60 years.

However, I also feel that the internet also keeps re-opening the wounds so to speak when it comes to Irish.

Just as one wave of people ask, debate, and eventually resolved their personal issues with the language...another wave of new learners comes in with the same questions and issues and fans the fires again. While I don't see a way to stop the circle, it explains why we love and hate to go round and round on the topics ;-)

However, having said that, if wave after wave of new people are coming in and asking the same questions, then shouldn't this be a red flag for all to focus on and clarify? People only have questions when they cannot find or understand the answer.

And when it comes to the Irish language, the answers are often as complicated and vague as the Irish themselves.

It feels as if there has been an imaginary line created between Irish speakers and the world when it comes to the language and understanding it.

Irish speakers are asking the world to stop asking why, and just accept things as they are.

And the world is asking Irish speakers to explain why things are the way they are, and then they will accept it.