1. Thosnuigh mé ar páipéar a léigheamh.
2. Thosnuigh mé ar an páipéar a léigheamh.
3. Chuaidh mé ann chun páipéar a léigheamh.

Ordinarily one would expect "páipéar" to be 1. lenited, 2. eclipsed (or lenited in Ulster, of course) after prepositions and 3. in the gentivie case after compound prepositions but as "páipéar a léigheamh" is a phrase I think it should be left unchanged.
Is that correct or have I misunderstood somewhere?

1. Yes with lenition
2. Yes with eclipsis
3. Yes with the genitive

Agus, mar go bhfuil a fhios agam gur maith leat seanalitriughadh na Gaedhilge:

1. Do thosnuigheas ar pháipéar a léigheadh.
2. Do thosnuigheas ar an bpáipéar a léigheadh.
3. Do chuadhas ann chum páipéir a léigheadh.

An example: (the original sentence is very long so I am just giving the relevant clause)

p11 of Timcheall Cinn Sléibhe by Seán Ó Dálaigh, 1933:

agus dá dheascaibh sin gur fearr go mór an mhóin stuaicín chun aráin a bhácáil ná an mhóin dubh

1. ar pháipéar a léamh - ach is é ar léamh pháipéir is fearr i gcás cuspóra éiginnte

2. ar an bpáipéar a léamh

3. chun páipéar a léamh

Aontam le hAibí.

In Ultaibh, déarfaidhe seo:

Thoisigh mé a léigheamh péipeáir.
Thoisigh mé a léigheamh an phéipeáir.
Chuaigh mé a léigheamh an phéipeáir.

Thank you all for your responses.
So I've gotten everything arseways again. Wonderful :)

quote:

Agus, mar go bhfuil a fhios agam gur maith leat seanalitriughadh na Gaedhilge:

1. Do thosnuigheas ar pháipéar a léigheadh.
2. Do thosnuigheas ar an bpáipéar a léigheadh.
3. Do chuadhas ann chum páipéir a léigheadh.

I'm aware of those forms.
As for "léigheamh", unless I'm mistaken (and knowing me there's a good chance I am) the final 'mh' is pronounced in some parts of Munster which is why I prefer it over "léigheadh".

quote:

3. chun páipéar a léamh

So no genitive after "chun"?

quote:

Thoisigh mé a léigheamh péipeáir.
Thoisigh mé a léigheamh an phéipeáir.
Chuaigh mé a léigheamh an phéipeáir.

Is the "a" above "ag" or the relative particle (formerly "do")?

It is the older "do", not "ag". It lenites a lenitable consonant:

Thoisigh mé a dhéanamh na hoibre.
Chuaigh mé a cheannacht bídh.

Yes. léigheamh, as you prefer to spell it, is pronounced /lʹe:v/ according to Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, and the spellings léigheamh and léigheadh are both given in Dinneen's dictionary. The pronunciation /lʹe:/ is given in the Irish of West Muskerry, so both forms are native to Munster.

Lughaidh seems to have picked up on the "dul chun" construction, and prefers to say the sentence without "chun", and I am sure his instincts are right in such matters. But if you are specifically asking on what would happen after chun, then the examples I gave of chun followed by the genitive of the object of the verbal noun would be the way it was always done. My database contains works written between 1902 and 1960. If you take the latest work, Na hAird Ó thuaidh, by Pádraig Ó Maoileoin, then that came out in 1960. He has: "chun na fírinne a rá". I can't find any examples in Munster literature of chun followed by anything other than the genitive.

But Abigail is doubtless right that this usage is no longer prescribed--she would know; I wouldn't know what was mentioned in the CO books--and it is to be expected that the CO forms both reflect and influence the speech of the younger speakers in the Gaeltacht.

While usage in Munster literature uses the genitive of the object of the verbal noun after chun, the use of the genitive of the verbal noun itself after chun died out in the 17th century. Chun teacht, not chun teachta, is found.

One further point: Munster literature does use the genitive of the verbal noun after chun if a possessive pronoun intervenes.

Riobeárd Ó Catháin's 1858 New Testament (he was a native of Co. Clare) has this in Matthew 2:13: mar loirgeoig Hérod an leabh óg chum a mhillte [for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him]

Seán Ó Dálaigh's Timcheall Chinn Sléibhe 1933 has this:

"ní bheadh scothán feamhnaighe aca lé cur ar a gcuid prátaí, chun a leasaithe..." [they wouldn't have a tuft of weeds to put on their potatoes to manure them - although I don't think manure can be a verb in English, but I can't find a good translation]

It would be interesting to know if the CO said "chun a leasú" or "chun a leasaithe"...

(Message edited by timd on November 07, 2009)

I would swear, without looking it up, that the CO would say 'chun a leasaithe'.

I agree with Aibi, that the CO has the likes of 'chun an obair a dhéanamh'. The use of 'chun' here is quite different to the likes of 'chun na scoile' - I'll leave the technical descriptions to someone else - and to be honest, 'chun na hoibre a dhéanamh' just sounds wrong to me. I admit that I am no expert on the various 'real' dialects and that 'book Irish' is my forte.

Interestingly FGB gives both 'chun an fhírinne a rá' and 'chun na fírinne a rá' - the latter, presumably, because it is so established in speech

Scooby, thanks for the confirmation about chun a leasaithe. Chun na hoibre a dhéanamh is indeed what would be found in Munster literature, at least before 1960. It is likely that widespread confusion about the genitive (mentioned in section 43 of Alan Ward's PhD paper on Munster Irish) means that it is not systematically used in this construction nowadays.

quote:

It is the older "do", not "ag". It lenites a lenitable consonant:

Thoisigh mé a dhéanamh na hoibre.
Chuaigh mé a cheannacht bídh.

Oh yes, I'm familiar with that construction. I had assumed, though, that the preposition "do" /də/ was still used in it which is why I thought it was the relative particle in your example.


Ceist eile:
An bhfuil a leanas i gceart?
"Thosnuigh mé ar é a léigheamh"
(seachas "....air....")