http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=5960

(Dála an scéil -- their 10% discount sale ends tonight!)

Written in standard Irish by a non-native speaker with an offensive picture on the cover. (Be careful before you open that link if you don't like disgusting pictures.)


Discount or not discount, it would be better to read one of the classics of traditional Irish.

Fiche Blian ag Fás, in proper Irish, reduced to 10.50 euros: http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=286

Thanks for that "review", David.

Sciorrfhocail is an interesting experiment in expressing Scandinavian mores in Ulster Irish, by a learner who in isolation has become extremely fluent. But it wouldn't be my cup of tea.(Having read extracts)

quote:

with an offensive picture on the cover. (Be careful before you open that link if you don't like disgusting pictures.)

What exactly offends you about that image, David? It's not but a thumbnail, unlike this version on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/190480831X/sr=8-1/qid=1257534907/ref=d p_image_text_0?ie=UTF8&n=266239&s=books&qid=1257534907&sr=8-1

-

Tá fonn bladhm chogaidh air, sílim.

Panu Höglund isn't a native speaker, but really his Irish is so good, really impressive.
I dunno if that book is in Standard Irish. Panu knows Ulster Irish very well, though.

Is saothar luath leis atá ann, nuair a bhí sé ar a dhícheall cloí le chanúint na Griannaigh.

Féach thíos. Tá na scéalta leasaithe ó shin aige.

(Message edited by aonghus on November 06, 2009)

Lughaidh, it would be good if he wrote in Ulster Irish but he has had a "Damascene conversion" to the standard Irish - and you, Lughaidh, are on record in hundreds of posts as supporting traditional Irish over the "standard". So do I.

I would be most interested in the story about the last English speaker in the world, assuming that the US spoke Ulster Irish, and English was dying out. It sounds an interesting basis for fictional writing. The story may have some literary value. (although I haven't read it)

I'm talking about the linguistic value, firstly of works in non-traditional Irish, and secondly of works in non-traditional Irish by non-native speakers. However good a learner's language, it will still need to be edited by a native speaker, for a start. Panu has frequently made statements on traditional Irish or Gaeltacht Irish on the GAEILGE-B list that have been shown to be wrong (I can give links if I am picked up on this as I bookmarked them at the time). Personally, I find posts by Romanas and Lars to be more trustworthy in terms of the scholarship that has been invested in them.

It would be wrong to assume that every sentence of a book written by a good learner can safely be copied by any learner as good Gaeltacht Irish. So I would need assurances that the whole book had been edited by a native speaker. Secondly, it is not even intended to be in Gaeltacht Irish. I do not see the value of the publication of any books in anything other than Gaeltacht Irish (of whichever dialect).

(Message edited by timd on November 06, 2009)

Is cosúil, mar a d'úrt tú, go dteachaigh Panu leis an Ghaeilg Chaighdeánaigh. Mór an truaighe. Ba mhaith liom a fhios a bheith agam cad chuighe.

Bhí cúiseanna aige, agus is dóigh liom gur fhoilsigh sé iad áit éigin. Ní cuimhin liom cá háit.

David,
some people read for entertainment. Samhlaigh sin!

don't fall out with each other over a book lads!

(Message edited by seamás91 on November 06, 2009)

Who cares? I don't restrict my English reading to works of certified native speakers, nor even to works known to be free of mispellings, grammatical errors and infelicities of idiom.

I read stuff I enjoy, and if I don't enjoy it I put it down and read something else.

Why has everyone got to be such a bloody purist about it soon as it's Irish?

Well, not everyone... there's the "it's only Irish, 'twill do" lot as well... but why can't more people just be NORMAL about the whole thing?
Dia idir sinn agus uabhar an fhoghlaimeora - nó uabhar sóirt áirithe foghlaimeora.

Ná déan breithiúnas ar chlúdach leabhair, a David . . . léigh tú féin é!

A Chionaidh, b'fhéidir go bhfuil an ceart agat. Bíodh ná beadh an Ghaedhilg traidisiúnta ann, do bheadh sé ana-shuimiúil a léigheadh cad a thárla leis an mBéarla i ndomhan go bhfuil an Béarla ag dul chun báis.

But on my point on the need for a native editor - that has to be right. When I read about Maoghnas O'Domhnaill and his Tosach Laidne, and downloaded, and then found out that MOD was an editor of An Claidheamh Soluis, but was not a native speaker, although spoke Irish very well, but still found the need to get An Seabhac to edit his Tosach Laidne, I realised that in the pre-war period Ireland was really trying to keep traditional Irish going in a way that is no longer the case. We could do with An Seabhac today!

(Message edited by timd on November 06, 2009)

Lughaidh, have you ever thought of writing a book in Ulster Irish?

Panu says on his blog his book contains smutty stories and pornographic drawings that are quite graphic. Not everyone admires smut, or its purveyors. So be warned. Of course, in the early Gaelic Revival, one of the major reasons cited for reviving Irish was to protect the Irish people against immoral novels in English. It was never intended that Irish would be a vehicle for filth.

Panu says that he published an Internet edition on the Internet, but that was in Ulster Irish, and he re-edited it into standardized Irish for the print publication. I am not sure if the Internet edition has been taken offline or not, or where it would be.

(Message edited by timd on November 06, 2009)

Thanks, Cionaodh for the link to one of the stories. You were polite enough not to link to the pornographic stories.

See Panu's explanation at http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/corpus/Panu/craiceann/eolas.en.html. He says:

"When I was sending the story to Gaelic-L, I promised to the subscribers that it would be porn in Irish. And certainly there is a detailed account of what they call "bualadh craicinn" in Irish. If you are a sixteen-year-old boy looking for better motivations for learning Irish than your teacher can give you, this is just for you. You can read it together with your girl-friend, but don't tell your parents, or hers! (God forbid...)

Panu Höglund"

So there you have it. If you are looking for "porn in Irish", purveyed by smutty Panu and published by Michael Everson, this is it.

The original version of the story "craiceann" is at http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/corpus/Panu/craiceann/.

So if you think smut and filth is what Litriocht should be selling and you should be buying, go for it.

Many of the stories in the book are available online in Ulster Irish at http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~panu/. The story about the last speaker of English is at http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/corpus/Panu/bearloir.html, but it is very short. I think the novel in the book is new. It probably makes more sense to read the book in proper Irish online (avoiding the filth) and not pay for it.

Is mór an trua nach foláir dom mo chuid smut a fháil trí bhéarla. Tá bearna ann le líonadh, go deimhin!

Is maith liom an clúdach. Is íomhá neamhghnách é.

Scríobh Aonghus:

some people read for entertainment

Count me in. Sometimes I even read science publications for entertainment value. As it comes to fiction, I have read some smashing good fiction, bad fiction, totally sucky fiction, lots of stuff between the boundaries of the quality spectrum... of course I can only say for myself, and myself only, what is good fiction. And I have read that stuff in good Finnish, bad Finnish, good English, bad English... anything between those boundaries of the linguistical quality spectrum... I have even read some stuff in Irish, of course the foclóir receives some wear in the process.

I haven't counted the dialects, haven't stopped to think "this is awful, this author should be banned" if they write in a dialect or a "standard"... as long as the story has a good plot that catches me, I don't mind slightly clumsy grammar or a specific variety of the language.

Of course if the author has no idea where and how to use punctuation, or their grammar can't be made the heads or tails of, etc... that renders the stuff hard if not impossible to read, and usually then it drains all the delight from reading, no matter how good the story might be on the fiction layer. OTOH if the story just totally sucks, perfect grammar and punctuation can't save it.

Some years ago I read into a few massive installations of Harry Potter fan fiction... there was a writer who really nailed me in my seat to read from top to bottom. Not only the stories were well built in canon with the real thing published up to that point, they had better character depth and thicker plot than JKR's work (IMO) and the English was really damn good. There was another writer who also had good plot and characters, but his grammar sucked at times and he described technical solutions that didn't appeal to me as entertaining, rather repulsive (but that is me).

That leads to one thing I'm quite anal about... techie hype. Usually the worst cases of that kind happen on the TV. You can't do flashy animations in a book (the story must induce that in the reader's head) but a few times watching TV, I have had to check if the window is closed and the shutter down, then count to ten thousand before grabbing the TV and throwing it out. Because [rant] NO, I KNOW IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT, YOU MORONS! [/rant]

This written, I must go forward and read more than just excerpts of Panu's stories. Unfortunately he seems to have plenty words that aren't in the foclóirí I have easy access to.

Timd = John Charles McQuaid


Is Panu Höglund a teacher?

Aye.

Fellow Finn, whom I've never met. He taught Irish in evening classes some years ago, in Turku, I believe.

Ag léamh na teachtaireachtaí anseo tá mo chuid spéise ag méadú. An ndéanfadh an leabhar seo aon sochar dom' chuid "mojo", mar a thugann na Meireacánaigh air?

(Táim ar an dtaobh contráilte de caoga.)

quote:

Timd = John Charles McQuaid

An interesting parallel, but if David's at all religious, he hides it very well.

Dialect issues with this book notwithstanding, David wouldn't have been kind to Panu's work due to personal animus -- Panu is a moderator of the Gaeilge-B list, and has had to expel David from there a couple of times for messages containing political/racist content.

David does nothing but argue.

hes been banned on Daltaí and IGT, and the Gaeilge-B lists as well ffs.


(Message edited by trigger on November 07, 2009)

Who cares? I don't restrict my English reading to works of certified native speakers, nor even to works known to be free of mispellings, grammatical errors and infelicities of idiom.

There has to be a place in the literature of a language for the non-native writer. It enriches the spectrum.

Of course, the quality of the writing has to make the grade.

In English literature there are such people as Vladimir Nabokov, Joseph Conrad [quote Wikipedia: "He is regarded as one of the greatest novelists in English though he did not speak the language fluently until he was in his twenties (and then always with a marked Polish accent).], Louis Begley etc.

There is a certain charm to it when non-natives write in a language they have mastered at some stage in life other than in their youth. They tend to write in a style that is very close to the standard and their writing tends to be denuded of idioms, but there is a distinctive flavour to it.

Of course, the fact that they have been immersed in the language, usually one of the major ones, is a corrective against distorting the structure of the language - which might not always be the case with a minority language where immersion is much less likely.

Another aspect is that in the major languages many native-speaker writers write in a non-idiomatic fashion.

No style should be proscribed and it is questionable whether a minority language can afford to be too exclusive - except concerning quality.

Insígí dom, an gceapann sibh go bhfuil TimD agus David an ceanna duine?

I think some of you should be very careful when making statements about someone named David. There's more than one person named David and your remarks could be easily attributed to the wrong person!!!

quote:

Insígí dom, an gceapann sibh go bhfuil TimD agus David an ceanna duine?

Bhí leasainmneacha éagsúla aige ó am go ham -- seo iad ó bharr an chinn:
David Rönnqvist
David Webb
Max Rönnqvist
Sean Trainor
Matthew Slater
"Irish Man"
"Suomenlinna"
TimD
SeanT

(An ndearna mé dearmad ar aon cheann acu?)

quote:

I think some of you should be very careful when making statements about someone named David. There's more than one person named David and your remarks could be easily attributed to the wrong person!!!

Apologies, David -- the one to which we're referring uses either Rönnqvist or Webb as surnames depending on his mood (or perhaps depending on the phase of the moon).

A Jussi, I think you are mixing up the copula and the substantive verb.

Insidh dom, an gceapann sibh gur é an céanna duine X agus Y?

(I think that is right, although the twists and turns of the copula can lay a trap for the unwary).

Gur= go+copula

Insígí dom, an gceapann sibh go bhfuil gurbh é an duine céanna TimD agus David an ceanna duine?

gurb, not gurbh

I am not sure how widespread gurb instead of gur is in front of the present-tense copula. I think "gur é" is also a possibility

OK I've been investigating it with the help of Séadna.

Gurb is found before é í, iad, amhlaidh/olc/annamh and some others
gur is found before "as", "amadán"

*Tá sé socair cheana acu gurb é Séadna féin a chuaidh siar dod’ iaraidh
*Deireadh sé gurb amhlaidh thugaidís an grádh céadna do Dhia a thugan an fear d’á mhnaoi.
*Fágaim le h-uadhacht, a Ghobnait, gur as mo bheul a bhainis é
*Ná bí ’ghá leigint ort gur amadán tú

There are no examples of é í iad or amhlaidh with just "gur". By the same token, there are no examples of "as" with "gurb".

I think you could say that words that regularly appear after "gur" and start with a vowel, would turn it into gurb. But for clarity's sake, when other nouns or clauses are being brought it that are not part of the regular constructions, you would use gur.

Thanks very much Cionaodh. And I miss working with you on the Yahoo Buntús Cainte Group. I hope teaching is going good for you these days!

David (the member formerly known as Mac Léinn)

quote:

OK I've been investigating it with the help of Séadna

Perhaps Mo Sgeul Féin or Bedell's bible would be of further assistance.
Whatever you do, stay away from Peig, it's a secret source of C.O. Irish.

Cionaodh, I am not sure what you mean. Is Peig one of the sources of CO Irish? Does Peig say "gur é" or "gurb é"? I don't have an electronically searchable edition of Peig I am afraid. Is one available anywhere? Of course, I do not discriminate against Peig - I would be interested to know her take on this.

I don't know who you are, TimD, but I find your prejudicial attitudes to be perplexing (at best). There's nothing "smutty" about these stories, even though some of them have some sexual content. They're stories about people. About young people, indeed. Perhaps you think that young Irish speakers should think about questions of sexuality only in English?

Sexual content does not equate to pornography, either.

The original versions of the stories were in very strong Ulster dialect. For this edition, all of the stories have been rather massively revised by Panu, not only in terms of orthography. As far as orthography goes, however, the text is in fairly standard Irish, though dialect is spoken by some of the characters.

I can't for the life of me imagine what's "offensive" about the book cover. The photo was taken by a Latvian photographer, and the model is just a woman wearing blue make-up.

I do think it's peculiar for you to be criticizing the language used in the book without having read it.

I hope that those who do choose to buy and read this book will enjoy it.

Tá an leabhar seo ag Amazon sna S.A. anois:
http://www.amazon.com/Sciorrfhocail-Sc%C3%A9alta-Panu-Petteri-H%C3%B6glund/dp/19 0480831X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257678430&sr=8-1

quote:

I don't know who you are, TimD, but I find your prejudicial attitudes to be perplexing (at best).

See above. "TimD" is the latest moniker for a gadfly who pesters various Irish lists/boards/forums. His smear campaign against Panu's work is not perplexing -- he simply has it in for Panu for tossing him off Gaeilge-B.

Michael Everson, Panu said one or some of the stories in the book were "porn in Irish", and has also warned about the content on his blog, and indicated that the drawings, done by his brother, were very graphic and sexual. The picture I saw on litriocht was of a horrible close up of someone's tongue.

Michael, you admit yourself that the content is sexual, and in fact such matters are unnecessary in any language, English included. Scions of the cultural revolution since the 1960s may think it is "cool" to publish books with graphic depictions of sexual activity, but that is something that Ireland has traditionally not been about, and to its credit too.

There is no smear campaign, just a warning that the books do contain content that not everyone will appreciate. Aonghus said above "Sciorrfhocail is an interesting experiment in expressing Scandinavian mores in Ulster Irish, by a learner who in isolation has become extremely fluent. But it wouldn't be my cup of tea." That sums it up. Scandinavian mores. Is Michael Everson now denying it? Sex with strangers, vomiting in the street and drunkenness have become part of the Finnish culture. If you want to read that, then this book should be fine.

(Message edited by timd on November 08, 2009)

I think Abigail said somewhere recently that you shouldn't read too much Irish just for the sake of the language; try to read the things that you are interested in for the content too. Smutty stories will teach you some Irish vocabulary and syntax, of course, but the question is, would you read "filth" just to be "cool" in your own language? As the judge in the Lady Chatterley's Lover trial asked the jury in 1960, "is this a book you would permit your wife or servant to read?"

Tá Sciorrfhocail ag Amazon i gCeanada chomh maith:
http://www.amazon.ca/Sciorrfhocail-Scalta-Panu-Petteri-Hglund/dp/190480831X/ref= sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257682450&sr=8-1

Cionaodh:

he simply has it in for Panu for tossing him off Gaeilge-B

And that probably didn't happen for light reasons.

TimD:

Sex with strangers, vomiting in the street and drunkenness have become part of the Finnish culture. If you want to read that, then this book should be fine.

Speak for your narrow-minded self. All that has become part of numerous other cultures, and I sincerely doubt that Ireland is free of it. The Finns, or the books they write about these areas of life, cannot be blamed. This kind of stuff happened long before the first lines of verbal markup were written, let alone anything that could be seen as a book. Porn probably originates from that era too - maybe it started when a caveman grabbed a piece of his own sh*t, drew a c*nt on the wall and j*rked off.

Tá Sciorrfhocail ag Amazon i gCeanada chomh maith:

Bhuel, tá sé sin "cool"!

To Curiousfinn: well said.

quote:

Sex with strangers, vomiting in the street and drunkenness

TimD, I wonder have you ever read "Lig sinn i gCathú"? (A Bestseller in its time). Not to mention Cúirt an Mheán Oíche.

I've heard Cuirt an Mhean Oiche has some "pornographic" features in it, but were only used as a literary technique by Merriman to convey the plight of the women as they are fed up with the unwillingness of irish men to marry.

Léigh duit féin é

http://www.showhouse.com/

Quote: Speak for your narrow-minded self. All that has become part of numerous other cultures, and I sincerely doubt that Ireland is free of it. The Finns, or the books they write about these areas of life, cannot be blamed. This kind of stuff happened long before the first lines of verbal markup were written, let alone anything that could be seen as a book. Porn probably originates from that era too - maybe it started when a caveman grabbed a piece of his own [rest of the sentence too uncivilized to quote].

Go raibh maith agat, a Ghiúsaí. I think maybe if you said that England had a problem with binge-drinking, you might be on the right track. Ireland strikes me as having made less "progress" down the path to social dissolution than England. There are differences between cultures - it is dishonest to pretend there aren't. Finns themselves often discuss this - including the alcohol=fest that is Vappu. Agus, toisg gurbh ó Fhionlainn cuid dem shinnsear, agus bímse san Fhionlainn ó am go ham, tá 's agam go maith go bhfuil roinnt "fadhbanna" ann, cé go bhfuil mórán rudaí mhaithe ann chomh maith. Your country is beautiful, and I love the way Finns are quiet and non-rowdy. I love the Swedish areas and the Finnish areas, and I definitely would not want to say that sexual promiscuity and drunkennness are the whole of Finnish culture. One of my ancestors, from the city of Pori, is on record of dying of drunkenness!

Tá Sciorrfhocail ar fáil sa Fhrainc, leis!

http://www.amazon.fr/Sciorrfhocail-Scalta-Panu-Petteri-Hglund/dp/190480831X/ref= sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=english-books&qid=1257712446&sr=8-1

Tá roinnt breise scríofa ag Panu ar a bhlag faoi

http://gaeilgepanu.blogs.ie/2009/11/07/roinnt-fhocal-faoi-chulra-mo-leabhair/

An bhfuil an leabhairín salach so ar fáil sa tSín, a Chionaidh? Abair linn, más é do thoil é. Is dóigh liom, ná fuil mórán franncach go bhfuil suim acu san leabhar so, bíodh go bhfuil sé ar fáil sa bhFrainnc!

Anois tá Sciorrfhocail ar fáil sa tSeapáin!

http://www.amazon.co.jp/Sciorrfhocail-Scalta-Panu-Petteri-Hglund/dp/190480831X

These are all branches of Amazon - an Internet bookshop. How much demand for books written in Irish is there in Japan? This is silliness, Cionaoidh. What about amazon.de? Why not check? What about joyo.cn, the Chinese branch of Amazon? Does it make any difference at all? What about Ethiopia? Surely the Amhara must be interested in it? Afghanistan? The Taliban may embrace the sexual revolution and buy this book? This is utter silliness.

Cionaodh, you are involved with a prestigious Irish organisation, gaeilge.org. As Panu is going to win the Duais Duine-Booker, why don't you put in a bulk order for 500 copies? You could sell them gradually at your US events. Cuir t'airgead mar a bhfuil do bhéal!

no need for divisions lads!

Kenneth Peterson newsletter (spoof)

**STOP PRESS**

The Roman Catholic Church in Ireland has agreed to promote the Irish language by offering a book by Panu Hoglund along with the New Testament at all parishes across Ireland. The Abp of Dublin said "this is the new century when stuffy attitudes, like those in the Bible, no longer apply. In order to be relevant to the people of Ireland, the Church needs to embrace casual sex. I myself am getting some practice in with the altarboys."

The response of Pope Benedict is not known yet. He is believed to be a traditionalist, and some speculate he may not approve. The rather more go-ahead RC Church in North America has responded well to the news, however, proclaiming it will hand out copies of Panu's book along with its own "children's guide to sex and sexuality" across the US. One US bishop, when pressed on whether the average Church worshipper could actually read Irish, replied "well, at least they could look at the pictures, which may help our congregations launch discussions of sexuality in primary schools across the land". American nuns are reported to have put in a bulk order for Mícheál Ó Siadhial's Learning Irish in order to read Panu's book!

:-)

Tá Sciorrfhocail ar fáil sa Ghearmáin freisin!

http://www.amazon.de/Sciorrfhocail-Scalta-Panu-Petteri-Hglund/dp/190480831X/ref= sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books-intl-de&qid=1257716141&sr=8-1

quote:

Tá Sciorrfhocail ar fáil sa Ghearmáin freisin!

Margaíocht mhaith! :-)
Ceannód é.

Lars

This is the last I will contribute to this discussion, so help me God. If I still do, so damn me God.

While I don't find the cover picture attractive or inviting to read, that is just me. Still I cant see it as offensive, repulsive at worst.

TimD, you know perfectly well what I mean about numerous other cultures having the said problems, or Ireland not being free from those. And if the rest of my post was decent enough to post, there should have been no problem with quoting it in the full.

I can understand that some people find sexual content of any level unacceptable, as well as the idea of drunkenness etc... name it.

A couple moves back, my next door b*tch lived alone with her b*stard son, "Dear Samuel". One evening she was bringing him back from the kindergarten. I overheard them when D.S. said, "The ladies told me today it's normal that boys have a pee-pee and girls have a wee-wee". She called the kindergarten right away and yelled that she will sue them if they still talk about sex to her son. Also, I was once sitting on my balcony and drinking beer (one, "1", single bottle) when she appeared on hers and started talking to me about how drinking alcohol in the sight of little children is pervasive etc... yap yap yap. D.S. wasn't even home.

Intriguingly, the same b*tch would trawl the local bars "ar meisce mar cuach" dressed in a tight shirt, mini skirt, fishnet pantyhose and stiletto heels, But it's not OK that his son knows the difference of boys and girls, or possibly sees the next door guy having beer.

Jussi, I would have suggested a compromise to "Dear Samuel's" mother. You could have said, "I will not drink my bottle of beer here for the sake of the children the day after you stop dressing like a prostitute for the sake of the children". That may have trounced her!

Tá Sciorrfhocail ar fáil sa tSualainn!

http://www.adlibris.com/se/product.aspx?isbn=190480831X

Cionaodh, I thought you might not be able to find the book on a Finnish website. Panu's book is available in Finland from http://www.bookplus.fi/kirjat/hglund%2c_panu_petteri/sciorrfhocail%3a_scalta_agu s_rscal-7534845

Although one cannot help noticing the much higher price compared with Litriocht. In general I have found books in Finland to be very, very, very pricey. [Did I forget to say "very"?]

Ceannaigí Sciorrfhocail san Iodáil!

http://www.webster.it/book_usa-sciorrfhocail_scalta_agus_rscal_panu-978190480831 2.htm

Tá Sciorrfhocail ar fáil san India:

http://www.indiaplaza.in/sciorrfhocail-scalta-agus-rscal-hglund-panu-petteri-hgl und-otso/books/190480831X.htm

Michael Everson, Panu said one or some of the stories in the book were "porn in Irish", and has also warned about the content on his blog,

Hyperbole on Panu's part.

and indicated that the drawings, done by his brother, were very graphic and sexual.

Some of them are.

The picture I saw on litriocht was of a horrible close up of someone's tongue.

I think it is a beautiful photograph. I love the book title "sciorrfhocail" 'slippery words' and the bilingual pun it makes in 'slips of the tongue' and the juxtaposition of this with the photo.

What weird prejudice do you have against a photo of a woman's lips and tongue?

Michael, you admit yourself that the content is sexual,

"Admit"? Is there something to "admit"? Nothing is being hidden here. This is literature. Literature deals with the human condition.

and in fact such matters are unnecessary in any language, English included.

This is entirely untrue. I (for example) am who I am today because of the literature I have read and the television and films I have seen. Some of that literature dealt with sexual themes. Some of that helped shape my views about the world. And about sex. One of my favourite authors, Ursula Le Guin, has in latter years being writing a great deal about sex and relationships. It is very fulfilling.

What do you want, people should stick to reading the Bible? (Hm. There's a lot of shagging goes on in the Bible.)

Scions of the cultural revolution since the 1960s may think it is "cool" to publish books with graphic depictions of sexual activity,

Blah, blah, blah. Who are you? When were you born? Have you read Joyce? Chaucer? The article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_literature on the Wikipedia reminds us that the Bible's Song of Songs is erotic. The article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_sexuality_in_speculative_fiction is also of interest.

but that is something that Ireland has traditionally not been about, and to its credit too.

Oh right. Ireland. A paragon nation of sexual health.

Perhaps literature in Irish should discuss weaving, and ploughing, and potatoes.

There is no smear campaign,

Bollocks.

just a warning that the books do contain content that not everyone will appreciate.

You've damned the book without having read it. Pffff.

Aonghus said above "Sciorrfhocail is an interesting experiment in expressing Scandinavian mores in Ulster Irish, by a learner who in isolation has become extremely fluent. But it wouldn't be my cup of tea." That sums it up. Scandinavian mores.

What are Irish morés, pray?

Is Michael Everson now denying it?

I do not deny that Panu is a Finn, any more than I deny that Ibsen was a Norwegian.

Sex with strangers, vomiting in the street and drunkenness have become part of the Finnish culture.

Listen, Your Censoriousness, I lived in Camden Street from 1989 to 2001, right in the centre of the capital city of this fine country. The casual sex, vomiting in the street and drunkenness purveyed by the bars and nightclubs in Camden Street were in every respect "part of Irish culture".

If you want to read that, then this book should be fine.

Panu's book is about more than that. I am proud to have published it.

(I'm also enjoying the conspóid, as this is likely to increase sales. Thanks, TimD. But NO thanks to you for condemning a book you haven't read.)

Scríobh mise:

quote:

"Sciorrfhocail is an interesting experiment in expressing Scandinavian mores in Ulster Irish, by a learner who in isolation has become extremely fluent. But it wouldn't be my cup of tea."

I suppose this was forshortened really. What I meant was that the parts of Panu's stories I read online were more direct about sexuality than is usual in books in Ireland (English or Irish).

But after thinking about it some more that is not fully correct. I forgot "Lig sin i gCathú". Not to mention Pádraig Standún.

Also I was thinking of the contrast between the artificial innocence of Máire, Panu's linguistic model, in contrast to the content of Panu's stories.

http://www.librarything.com/author/mire

Timd,
I would value your posts more if there were quotes, or a full review posted here of the book. A favorite book of mine, for instance, is Confederacy of Dunces, which has many offensive things in it, but I think it isn't gratuitous. I would, however, not recommend it to someone say under 17 years of age or so, depending on maturity. You can't just say smut and be done with it. Give us a review, something with meat. Otherwise, I'm not going to take your opinions with much weight. I am anti-smut, inasmuch as a lot of teen novels are gratuitously sexual to arouse the passions of the reader, not to give catharsis or illustrate any quality of humanity that we may learn from, as Aristotle teaches and many other story-telling traditions. The Bible has smut too. Remember good old Judah and Thamar ...

To tell the truth, I don't think the sexual content is the problem. It is presented in a romantic way which will, I am positively sure, appeal to many female readers too. Also, as I am an avowed teetotaller, the only people who do drink alcohol in the book are either unsympathetic or comical (vide young Koskinen), and they do their drinking offstage.

The cultural shock there is, is the quintessentially Finnish dreariness, melancholy and hopelessness. Some Irish people who read the earlier drafts have been quite upset about the pessimistic overtones of the novel and one of the short stories.

As regards TimD, he is a well-known troll pestering Irish-language forums, who has at several occasions demonstrated that he has mastered the Finnish language, and also, that he is, after a fashion and according to his own dim lights, familiar with Finnish politics. For the last three years, I have been targeted and victimized by a far-right internet vigilante group in Finland for reasons I don't myself quite understand, but to me it seems that the racist and far-right propaganda TimD (and his earlier incarnations) has been spouting on Gaeilge-B has very much in common with the kind of propaganda that has been proliferated by that very Finnish outfit. In fact, I would not be surprised if TimD were some sort of international liaison of that group. His personal animus towards me might actually be something he has picked up from unsavoury far-right acquaintances in Finland.

Agus maidir le "sex with strangers", nó "public drunkenness", tá a fhios ag an saol mór nach maith liom biotáille de chineál ar bith, agus nuair a bhíonn na daoine ag bualadh craicinn i mo chuid scéalta, bíonn siad i ngrá le chéile. Ach ar ndóigh, níl a fhios ag TimD cad é is ciall leis an bhfocal mór sin "grá", an fear bocht.

Oh right. Ireland. A paragon nation of sexual health.

Le fírinne, nuair a tháinig mé go hÉirinn an chéad uair riamh, bhí mé, le mo chuid "béas Lochlannach", scanraithe as mo mheabhair ag an dóigh a mbíodh na buachaillí is na cailíní i gColáiste na hOllscoile, Gaillimh, ag méaradradh a chéile ar fud Áras na Gaeilge gan trácht ar bith a dhéanamh ar na háiteanna eile. Díreach roimhe sin, bhí cúpla dreas deas craicinn agam le cailíní Fionlannacha, agus mhothaigh mé mé féin breá ullamh fá dhéin mhná na hÉireann, ó bhí na míonna fada le caitheamh i dtír na naomh, na n-ollamh is na mban dathúil, ach nuair a chonaic mé chomh teasaí is a bhí na cailíní in Éirinn, rinneadh stócach óg cúthail cotúil díom ar an toirt. Is é sin, nílim a rá gur drochrud a bhí ann amach is amach, ach ní fheicfeá a leithéid san Fhionlainn ach amháin le linn féile rac-cheoil nó rud éigin mar sin. Is é an chéad rud a rith liom ná: Dia dár réiteach, an bhfuil siad uilig tar éis ródháileog Viagra a thógáil? Na cailíní chomh maith leis na fir óga??? Tríd is tríd, bímid i bhfad Éireann níos cúthaile ná na Gaeil, a fhad is atá cúrsaí craicinn agus collaíochta i gceist.

Tà mè laidhc deifinatlaì dul an leabhar seo a cheannacht anois! Maith sibh as an bolscaireacht a ghasùnaì.

Seo an méid a bhí le rá ag Seán Ó ar a bhlag

http://seano-thallisabhus.blogspot.com/2009/11/sciorrfhocail-le-panu-petteri-hog lund.html

The richness of any language depends on its ability to express all aspects of human behaviour as well as all notions of our existence, animal and spiritual.

A chain of events is required to elevate the Irish language into the modern mind set in order for it to flourish in the coming decades.
This process to maintain Irish (celtic) culture and language is more important than ever as we entering a dark chapter in world history where cultures are being eradicated and a new form of post capitalist communism is being implemented by the elite ruling families.

In the future all Irish language will be written in standard Irish, that's a fact.

Wish you all the success with your book, Panu (our Viking brother) :0)

"A chain of events is required to elevate the Irish language into the modern mind set in order for it to flourish in the coming decades."

Oh come on, Irish has already been elevated into the modern mindset by native writers such as Máirtín Ó Cadhain, Seosamh Mac Grianna, Pádraic Breathnach, Pádraig Ó Cíobháin, to mention just some of them (and nota bene all these examples are/were native speakers). The trick is to make people read them.

IMHO the real challenge is writing engaging stories in a Standard Irish enriched with influences from native dialects, so that it feels natural to the reader of Gaeltacht folklore and native literature, too. It is possible and it is attainable.

Bhí me ar mo shuaimhneas ag machnamh ar chursaí collaíochta agus ag cuimhneamh corroíche in Áras na Ghaeilge. Anois tá mé buartha faoi "a new form of post capitalist communism being implemented by the elite ruling families". Is crua an saol é.

quote:

The trick is to make people read them.

Sin é. Uaireanta bíonn an cuma ar an scéal go bhfuil níos mó filí agus scríbhneoirí Gaeilge ná leitheoirí ann!

"in the pre-war period Ireland was really trying to keep traditional Irish going in a way that is no longer the case."

Oooh! This touches on my MA thesis! (all references are to O’Leary, Philip. The Prose Literature of the Gaelic Revival, 1881-1921. University Park: The Pennsylvania State University Press, 1994.)

As far back as 1877, the Society for the Preservation of the Irish language stated their goal as "to encourage the production of a Modern Irish Literature - original or translated (7)."

O'Leary goes on to identify two loosely-defined camps, "nativists" (those invested in basing the developing literary movement on living gaeltacht speech) and "progressives" (those invested in developing a literary movement based on the establishing of a literary standard "dialect" and "filling in the gaps" Gaeilge's literary development experienced during centuries of being denied meaningful access to the press after the invention and proliferation of movable type and a print industry (15). Just because the "nativists" got the upper hand at the time doesn't mean theirs is the only valid perspective.





"Scions of the cultural revolution since the 1960s may think it is "cool" to publish books with graphic depictions of sexual activity, but that is something that Ireland has traditionally not been about"

Yes, because there's no sexuality in the Ulster Cycle...sheesh...

Peadar Ua Laoghaire's sentiments (written in 1900) perhaps serve as evidence of early resistance to artificial literary prudishness, "I tell you, with all due respect to him Keating is a fraud. His Irish is not true Irish. It was not the living Irish of his time. A single particle of the true RACINESS of the language is not to be found in him." (emphasis mine)

Literature, like all human endevors, reflects the morality and mentality of the creator. There is nothing Irish about being prudish or racy. Indian civilization produced the extremes of the Kama Sutra/Tantric sex to Buddhism. Irish civilization had a good run in which Catholicism ruled the roost. Clearly this is no longer the case and there is a huge vacuum sucking in things somewhat indiscriminantly to fill it. Whether people obeyed the moral teachings or not before is not entirely relevant. What is more important was that there was a standard there which most people agreed upon. Now the water is much more murky, and any Joe can print his thoughts. More freedom, more responsibility, greater consequences. The Irish language is not moral or immoral per se, but a vehicle and a reflector. Sure this vehicle was used for a lot of holy things in the past, but this stemmed from the people, not from the language to the people. The best thing for the language is to not link it with morality at all as though it is a prime-mover of Irish culture. Morality should be super-linguistic and should form language. Judge a book on its content, not on the language in which it is written. The Irish language is neither racy nor prudish. (I can translate Hustler magazine into Church Latin. Does that change the morality of the content?) In other words, the moral problems of Ireland go way deeper than the Irish language or even their cultural identity. Any Catholic with sense, I think, would recognize that humanity as a whole is in this struggle of morals and beliefs -- we are all searching for answers to some degree for the modern problems we face. Ireland has their version of it. The US another. Etc.

PS. Don't get me wrong. I am not denying the pragmatic effect language has on culture, identity, and morality. But I am assert that it is not the prime-mover of this, but an effect which then causes changes in other aspects of life. I think once you regard it as prime-mover, the views get distorted about what language really is.

quote:

Irish civilization had a good run in which Catholicism ruled the roost.

Disputable. How about Merriman? Not to mention folklore.

Má nuadachas was a creature of the 19th Century.

Both strands have always been there.

Aonghus,
I'm not saying that that was it in society or literature. But it is not disputable that Catholicism was a filter by which most things were run through, consciously or unconsciously. Even the folklore was run through it to some extent. Probably the best proof of it is the contrast of today, or of a largely traditionally non-Catholic country like the USA. Our identity is toleration super omnia even to the point of intolerance(!). We run every issue through this GIANT filter. Back to Ireland, I was floored by the Catholic identity of Ireland, even in its weakened state. One could argue that it is/was a facade, but it is/was then a substantial and elaborate facade at that. And this is the post-Vatican II weakened faith! I would find it interesting to see what single factor formed Irish civilization more during the period of roughly 500 - 1962 AD? I'm not making the argument for this, but just delivering my observations. But even with this being the case in my mind, the Irish language reflected society, not the other way around. The language is naked at first, if you will, and receives meaning and symbolism from the people who use it. Ireland may have some dictator in the future who speaks eloquent Ulster dialect, to TimD's delight, does that justify his acts? I am simple addressing that throughout this thread there has been intermingling of morality and the Irish language as though Sciorrfhocail didn't live up to some inherent holiness of the Irish language.

quote:

I am simply addressing that throughout this thread there has been intermingling of morality and the Irish language as though Sciorrfhocail didn't live up to some inherent holiness of the Irish language.

And I agree with you. The irony is that Irish speaking Ireland has been less affected by the puritan strand of Maynooth Catholicism than English speaking Ireland.

A translation of Merrimans Cúirt an Mheáin Oíche was banned - but the original Irish was freely available, for example.

My father-in-law tells me that Brave New World was banned. I don't know if this ever made it into Irish, but I thought, talk about a book that should have been preached on at the pulpit. I see your point clearer now. Thanks.

There are bound to be a range of views on literature - that is why literature is fun. If it doesn't provoke discussion, then it may it is stale?

I take the point the book by Panu is written by a man who takes great care to use correct Irish syntax and not descend into Anglicisms - and no that score there must be things for everyone to learn here.

I don't think a work written in Standard Irish will feel natural to native speakers of Munster Irish. But they are in the minority. Probably the best bet is to write in way that comes across as natural to speakers of Connemara Irish, altogether more attainable. Syntax and morphology both exist in a language, and "bhí siad", "i ngach" and "don solus" just will not feel right to Munster speakers even if the surrounding syntax is very natural. I would be interested to know how natural the book comes across to native speakers of Ulster Irish - as they are said to be the furthest from the Standard - but would be interested in "from the horse's mouth" comment, not second-assurances on the subject. Ultimately, as the Standard is closest to Galway Irish, the most reasonable approach is to write in a Standard way that would feel nature to a Galway speaker?

Ultimately, there will always be choices and debates about dialects and the standard, and I don't think people who support the real dialects should have their views pushed out. I would have preferred the Ulster dialect edition of this book, preferably with notes to explain the divergences so that I could see where there were Ulsterisms. And I would have preferred the stories not about "craiceann". These stories may be less graphic than once claimed, but not everyone will see the need for them either. These are very personal tastes - and de gustibus non est disputandum.

I am sure there is much to learn here.

Isn't Dave just pathetic, throwing away his precious time attacking my book? Even after having been banned from this forum, he keeps on hammering at that old anvil, now as an unregistered, anonymous guest. He has never done anything worthwhile himself for the sake of the language, he has just been giving his speeches to a captive audience, in English. Now that somebody, such as I, actually made it and did something worthwhile ar son na Cúise, he just can't stand it. Can you imagine such petty, vindictive envy?

Anyway, if the book is disliked by the Gaeltacht people - and I think they themselves know their likes and dislikes better than David - I am sure there will be enough people around to like it and to learn better Irish from it. And as my own experience shows, that will make them better equipped to appreciate Gaeltacht Irish. One of the first book I myself managed to read back in the nineties, was Lorcán Ó Treasaigh's "Bás san Oirthear". It is written in standard Irish, and although it is not bad Irish, it is not entirely faultless. However, the language is so idiomatic that it gave a real boost to my Irish at that time, and it made me much better equipped to tackle the next book - Ger Ó Ciobháin's sweet little autobiography An Giorria san Aer, which is, incidentally, in Kerry Irish. It is a book very much in the Peig vein, and in a strongly dialectal language, but it is definitely the same language as that of Ó Treasaigh. In fact, my memories of those two first books I read in Irish are inseparable.

I would like to add that Bás san Oirthear is also a perceptive book about how those brought up in Irish in the English-speaking districts feel about the language. I would even venture to say that the book is better than Ó Treasaigh's later reexamination of the same theme, Céard é English?

Panu, ná bac le lucht do cháinte. Tá éacht déanta agat agus is duine dinn féin anois thú. Is duine den Ghaeltacht tú más ionann "Gaeltacht" agus lucht na Gaeilge. Níorbh eol dom gur scríobh Lorcan Ó Treasaigh ná Ger Ó Cíobháin na leabhair sin. Is é an trua é go bhfoilsítear leabhair agus go gcaitear sa skip láithreach iad. Ní dhéantar iarracht iad a dhíol ná margaíocht a dhéanamh orthu. Tar éis na mblianta nuair a chloiseann léitheoirí futhu bíonn siad "as cló". Mar dhea!

Ar chaoi ar bith, is maith liom go bhfuil tú ag scríobh sa Chaighdeán agus gur sheas tú an fód chomh fada seo. Chuaigh tú i gcion ar dhaoine nuair a labhair tú ón ardán i bhfábhar Stádas na Gaeilge san Eoraip, éacht eile!

Bíodh a fhios agat go bhfuil cion ag lucht na Gaeilge ort agus iad buíoch díot.

A Thaidhgín, tá leabhar úd an Treasaigh ar fáil i leabharlannaí.

Gheobhaidh tú tríd http://www.BorrowBooks.ie é - agus seolfar go dtí do leabharlann áitiúil é. Ó Tharraing Panu m'aird air, tá sé i gceist agam é a fháil agus a léamh.

Tá sé ar fáil ó Litríocht freisin.

Maidir le Margaíocht, cuimhnigh gur go deonach agus go páirtaimseartha a oibríonn mórchuid d'fhoilsitheoirí na Gaeilge, agus gan cianóg rua ar fáil dóibh don mhargaíocht.

Áiméan a deirim. Tagaim leis an moladh ar Panu thuas, fear a bhfuil níos mó déanta aige don teanga seo ná mórán nach é.

Is cosúil go mbeidh macasamhail lucht cainte - agus losctha - 'Seanchas an Táilliúra' linn cuid den bhealach isteach sa chéad seo, ach tiocfaidh ciall chucu le himeacht ama.
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0106&L=GAEILGE-A&P=11280
http://www.gouganebarrahotel.com/gougane-barra-page49256.html

Go raibh maith agat a Thaidhgín. Caithfidh mé a rá, áfach, nach bhfuil mé féin den bharúil go bhfuil difríocht mhór idir an Caighdeán agus na canúintí. Thairis sin, ní bhíonn na canúintí féin chomh difriúil agus a bhítear ag áitiú go minic. Le fírinne, nuair a léigh mé an chéad leabhar a casadh orm riamh i nGaeilge na Rinne (is é sin, Gaeilge Chontae Phort Láirge), chuir sé an-iontas orm a fheiceáil go raibh a lán ainmfhocail thuairisciúla nó descriptive nouns ansin nach bhfaca mé go dtí sin ach amháin ag na scríbhneoirí Ultacha. Mar sin, shíl mé gur focail chúng-Ultacha a bhí iontu. Ach ansin, tuigeadh dom gurb í an teanga chéanna Gaeilge na Rinne, agus nach raibh mé ach ag déanamh dochair, damáiste agus díobhála dom féin mar scríbhneoir cruthaitheach agus mé ag iarraidh na focail is na teilgeanacha cainte a sheachaint a d'fhoghlaim mé ó na scríbhneoirí neamh-Ultacha. Ar ndóighe, ba rud maith é tráth srianta agus rialacha an Ultachais a ghlacadh orm go saorthoilteanach, nó ar an dóigh sin, d'fhoghlaim mé cruinneas agus féinsmacht, agus rudaí a bhíonn ag teastáil go mór mór ón duine a chleachtann ceird an scríbhneora. Chaith mé deich mbliana - 1996-2006, a bheag nó a mhór - ag iarraidh cloí le Gaeilge Uladh i mo chuid scríbhneoireachta, agus ar ndóigh, ba mhaith an téarma printíseachta é. Anois, áfach, creidim nach bhfuil mé i mo phrintíseach níos mó ach i mo máistir, agus mar sin, sílim go bhfuil mé in inmhe an chuid is fearr de na canúintí ar fad a roghnú agus a chur in úsáid i mo chuid Gaeilgeoireachta agus scríbhneoireachta féin.

Ón taobh eile de, tá mé tar éis cúpla scéim a thosú nuair a bhí mé ag dul le hUltachas go fóill, agus mise meáite ar na scéimeanna seo a chur i gcrích i nGaeilge Uladh, mar a thosaigh mé orthu. Ceann acu is ea é an Eachtra Mhór Gháirsiúil. Beidh an craiceann i bhfad níos loime ansin ná sna scéalta a foilsíodh faoi chlúdach leabhair, ach ar ndóighe, is beag duine a bheidh in ann mórán adhmaid a dhéanamh den Ghaeilge ansin, le teann an Ultachais. ;)

Scéal eile áfach go n-athscríobhfaidh mé "Ciclipéid na hOllchruinne" sa Chaighdeán, is dócha, nó tá dóchas éigin agam as an gceann sin mar leabhar scoile.

Treise leat as an sliocht ciallmhar sin chomh maith a Panu.
(Mise an diabhal a dhearmad a ainm a scríobh ar ball.)

Sin ceann de na rudaì is ciallmhaire dà bhfaca mè araimh ar an suìomh seo a Phanù. Go raibh maith agat.

Ba è mo thrioblòid le lucht na gcanùintì i gcònaì nà go raibh siad ag cur in iùl dom go raibh Gaeilge ann nach raibh an cheart agam a fhoghlaim is a ùsàid is go raibh orm cloì le canùint s'acu - i ndiaidh sin uile go lèir, 'air a labhair me go canana me fhìn dhiùlt' siad mo thuigbheàil'.

Teanga amhàin is ea è.