Haigh, a cairde,

I have what I think may be a quick question (but we'll see). :)

I am currently writing brief articles on the Irish language Wikipedia, and dealing largely with historical figures, I am constantly meeting people who are 'of' a place. For example, 'King Charles of France', 'Louis of Naples', etc.

People from particular countries are easy enough for me to translate from English (after heaps of practice!), because there are well-established genitive forms. So, to use my examples above:

* King Charles of France > Séarlas, Rí na Fraince - easy
* But what about poor Louis? Would I say Louis ó Napoli? Louis as Napoli? Just Louis Napoli??? Or something else?

Thanks in advance,
Robert :)

It is a title, is it not?
Then Louis Napoli or Louis [an/na] [Whatever the Irish form is, don't have it to hand]

If it is not a title, if it a description of where someone is from, use lowercase Ó (or leave it out)
e.g. Thomas Acquinas (von Aquin) = Tomás [ó] Acúin

By the way, have you asked the question on Wikipedia? There might be a house style.

An Fhrainc, ergo Rí na Fraince
Sasana, ergo Banríon Shasana.
An Aithin ergo Cathair na hAithne.

Má tá an t-alt roimh an ainm san ainmneach caithfidh an t-alt bheith roimh an ainm sa ginideach agus a mhalairt.
Ach eiseachtaí: Gaillimh: Contae na Gaillimhe agus ár ndóigh tá cinn eile

Lughaidh, Rí na Napoli

nó

Lughaidh I na Napoli

Go raibh maith agat, gach duine! :)

Aongus: With your explanations at hand, I'll definitely ask now. Definitely wanted to hear some credible opinions first!

Joe: That's a pretty easy rule to follow - thanks heaps for the explanation.

Seánw: That's helpful too - is 'Laoiseach' another version of Louis too, because I've seen that on Wikipedia (which isn't, of course, to say that it's correct...)?

quote:

is 'Laoiseach' another version of Louis too

Lughaidh is the most common I've seen, especially in reference to historical persons like the French kings. Like most Irish names, though, it is an Irish name attached to a foreign name. Example, Úna for Agnes, Gráinne for Grace, etc.

quote:

Lughaidh is the most common I've seen

I would have said exactly the opposite - that Laoiseach is used for foreign Louis!

There's often Laoiseach for Louis/Ludwig in Vicipéid article texts but usually Louis/Ludwig etc. acc. to their language as headword.
There's no Lughaidh.

Lars

Yes, but I am not referring to the Vicipéid as my source. I'm referring to actual Irish books. For instance, my Roman Missal uses Lughaidh throughout for Louis. Now practices may have changed since 1958, but I was just reporting what I have seen. Woulfe gives both as options, Lughaidh first. Plus it sounds more like the French. I would not, however, do what they're doing there in some places, which is using the foreign first name for historical persons, e.g. Louis I na Napoli. Louis should only be used for actual living people who are named Louis and go by that name. Generally I think it is a better practice to use an accepted Irish version of the name (which reflects Irish spelling), and then give the original in parenthesis, e.g. Lughaidh/Laoiseach I na Napoli (Fraincis Louis de Naples). When we talk about Saint Jerome in English, we don't use Hieronymus. But I would also follow current practices, so if Laoiseach has become more common, then use it. I personally would avoid the tendency in Irish to just use the English or French (Louis) version, especially in a case where it is not the person's name or they are a historical person.

There is no etymological link between the names Louis/Ludwig which are Germanic in origin and Lughaidh which is of Gaelic/Celtic origin.
Our ancestors came up with Laoiseach, for reasons best known to themselves, as the Irish form of Louis and I think its best to stick with that.

This old habit of using a native Irish name as the equivalent of a foreign name has led to quite a bit of confusion over the years actually. People are convinced, for example, that the correct Irish forms of biblical names like Daniel or David are Domhnall and Dáithí when there's no connection between them whatsoever.

For the sake of accuracy it's always important to keep a clear distinction between native Irish names and the Irish forms of foreign names.
(That said, obviously an individual called Louis or Daniel who wants to use a gaelicised form of his name is free to choose whichever version he wishes.)

What about Amhlaoibh? Etymologically related to Scandinavian Olav, it is usually paired up with "Humphrey"!