Here's an idea: no one not fluent in Irish can inherit or own property! All legacies go to the nearest Gaeilgeoir! Do chuirfeadh sé an ghaoth suas iad!

Hmm...

While I understand what you meant there, perhaps a little re-writing to the law would make it a little more affective ;-)

Maybe:

No person may inherit or own Irish property without first proving their fluency in the Irish language.

Or something to that affect. Remember that to those who write laws, it's all in how you say things. LOL

Then again, if they really wanted to enforce the notion, they could write the following sentence in Irish on every application:

"People who are fluent in Irish, and can prove they are by understanding this sentence, can claim preferential treatment. If you want to claim Irish fluency preference points, place your initials next to the right of this sentence."

Then underneath that write in English:

"If the above sentence does not pertain to you, check the box to the right."

You might be surprised at the number of people tempted to completely skip it because they cannot understand it, or assume it has to do with Gaeltacht residents.

This could be an excellent way to give Irish speakers a leg up against non-Irish speaking competitors. Also it gives Irish employers a chance to be more selective if they choose to be. And if they are really "go getters" they could use this to create an Irish speaking group and apply for governmental benefits. LOL

quote:

no one not fluent in Irish can inherit or own property!

I thought the Irish [Language] Fascist movement died with Ailtirí na hAiséirghe in the 1950s. Guess not.

C & P: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailtirí_na_hAiséirighe

quote:

The party sought to form a totalitarian Irish Christian corporatist state. Its objectives included the creation of a one-party government under the rule of an all-powerful leader; the criminalisation of the public use of the English language; discriminatory measures against Jews; the building-up of a massive conscript army; and the reconquest of Northern Ireland.

You might think it funny to publicly fantasise about how to punish Irish citizens who only speak English (even if done in jest)....and also to prop up Irish, but it was actually suggested in the past, and was very unsavoury indeed. It was a disgusting organisation.

For more see: RM Douglas, 'Architects of the Resurrection: Ailtirí na hAiséirghe and the Fascist 'New Order' in Ireland', Manchester University Press, 2009.

A Danny, I wouldn't put too much thought into it. There is always going to extremists both pro and con for all things in life.

To be completely honest, with humanitarian ethics dominating the world like it has been for the past 20 years or so, it would take some ballsy groups to try an officially install any penal code system on a mass group. That type of rule can only happen when you can almost completely control a group while keeping it a secret from your neighbors. And with modern technology, mass communication, and educated peoples...well, I don't think we will be seeing it done anytime soon ;-)

Now having said that, there is a valid point to be made about the potential usage of certain types of positive incentives, specifically economic incentives, as a means to boost language usage. I guarantee you the boys and girls would pay more attention in Irish class if they knew it could be a hiring tool that gives them an advantage over those who can't speak the language.

My inspiration for the post comes from an editorial I read the other day about my city getting ready to vote on making a law that says all city and some major companies within the city will only allow applications and the hiring process to be done in English.

Having a rather large, and might I add equally large illegal Mexican population in the city has been a very hot issue since 2000. After an investigation in 2006, it was discovered that a lot of the companies who were hiring immigrant and illegal immigrant workers were conducting the hiring process completely in Spanish. Now the use of Spanish is not the issue, no one really cares about that per se...however, my county has a unique law from the 1800s that requires a 4th grade reading level in order to be able to work in the county. In every application, you will be asked to read a paragraph out loud to the HR person and while you cannot be denied for not being able to read, you can be denied for not meeting the requirement.

The hole in the system was that they didn't specify which language that requirement must be in, even if English was the assumed language.

So from time to time, they vote on making English the required language for the paragraph, but every time it gets shot down because we have a large number of international university students of questionable English skills going through our medical and legal programs who cannot work study in the local area. Not to mention an extremely large Mexican population that has a good political base in the area.

Now what does this have to do with Irish?

Irish has an official standing in Ireland. So, if a company wanted to have their applications in Irish only and refuse to cater to an English speaking person, they would have the legal right to do so. Maybe not the best business move, but it is still something I would love to read about in the papers...LOL

"Irish has an official standing in Ireland. So, if a company wanted to have their applications in Irish only and refuse to cater to an English speaking person, they would have the legal right to do so"

But, if my reading of the Irish constitution is correct, both Irish and English enjoy the same legal standing:

"Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof."

Private businesses hiring practices would not be "official purposes," which I take to mean official government porposes.

quote:

So, if a company wanted to have their applications in Irish only and refuse to cater to an English speaking person, they would have the legal right to do so.

I suspect the Equality Police would get them, unless they could show a need for Irish.

It could certainly be construed as a barrier to EU citizens, for example.

Antaine, the use of "first" in the above (which is stronger in the Irish version) means that English does not have quite the same legal status for official purposes. But the third clause gives teh Oireachtas very wide powers.

In my humble opinion, there are significant economic incentives for people to learn Irish as it stands (until the budget anyway!). There are (were!) significant job opportunities in media, teaching and translation, not to mention the six per cent bonus in public sector competitions. In fact, I would argue that the opportunities are better and with more progression paths than the bulk of R&D and IT stuff available to maths and science graduates.

Antaine,

Aonghus is correct. While English is given official standing, Irish is given I higher standing because it is named first. One of the things about legal writing is that the order in which things are written assigns a priority to it. The Irish constitution not only puts the Irish language first, but it goes all out and says, Irish is the first language of Ireland.

Trying to define "official language" is like trying to define "imperialism." Its meaning has changed many times over the years and can be used in different contexts.

To me, if you say a language is "official" then you are saying it is the language of the people. It is the language you hear when you go to the shops, it is the language you hear in the streets, it is the language you see in the media, and so forth. But by this definition, Irish would not be the first, and maybe not even an official language of Ireland because a good 90% use English only in their daily lives.

However, if you take some of the more traditional definitions such as the language of the government, the courts, the nation's economic sectors, and the administrative processes. Now it gets complicated.

As the first official language, nearly all of these functions should be conducted in Irish first as is the law of the land. If Irish has declared Irish the language of the nation, which it has, then it is the language of the nation. And countries wanting to do business with that country, are going to have to deal with them on their terms. Things like the EU shouldn't matter at all because it does business with many nations in many languages and doesn't mind it at all. In my opinion what is happening is that the EU is calling Ireland out and saying, why should we use Irish with an English speaking people.

And in terms of equality, would it really be unfair? To who is it unfair? According to the numbers, Ireland's population in July was around 4.2 million people with 1.7 million (primarily the younger people) claiming to have at least a base line Irish. That is roughly 40% of the nation and quickly growing. Now that doesn't mean they are speaking the language daily or conducting business, and they don't have to.

What it does mean is that Ireland has an opportunity to improve local employment conditions for Irish citizens, which is always good for a nation, with something as simple as giving a hiring preference for a job application that was filled out in Irish.

In 2002-4, when the US were asking some serious questions about immigration laws, we discovered that in 2000, almost 25% (24.3)% of all job applications were filled out in a language other than English. Again, this doesn't mean that these people used these languages for their job, they just applied for them in their native languages.

As an American, I was amazed to learn that a quarter of the people working in my country, couldn't or wouldn't speak the English language to get a job in the US. I understand that it is a complex thing, it always is, but come on. 1/4?

Today's experts have revisited this information and said that had we English only policies in affect today, the number of jobs opened up would be more than the number of English speaking unemployed in my nation. That is a very impressive "what if" statement.

An chilleasrach,

Sorry, I didn't see your post. I am not saying there are not any incentives being offered or anything like that.

I am saying, it would be an incentive to learn the language if people knew that a job application in Irish gave them a better chance at a job.

quote:

mention the six per cent bonus in public sector competitions.

That would be nice, if it were true. When knowledge of Irish was made no longer compulsory for the civil service, this method was introduced - on paper - to ensure enough civil servants could do business through Irish.

In fact, as an investigation by the CT revelaed, it was systematically subverted from the start.

That's true up to a point. In internal Departmental competitions and the like, it would be hard to find situations where the 6% was allowed to make a difference. That is certainly not the case with large panel-based competitions run by the Public Appointments Service, however. The 6% is only added at the end, so it makes no difference as people are eliminated at various phases of competitions but it can make a very large difference to where you are placed on a final panel. This is often the difference between being getting a job and not.

"Antaine, the use of "first" in the above (which is stronger in the Irish version) means that English does not have quite the same legal status for official purposes. But the third clause gives teh Oireachtas very wide powers."

I see nothing in the Constitution that delineates anything that the "first" official language gets that other official languages do not.

Irish doesn't even get to be the first language in which gov't legislation/drafts/publications must be produced. Most are produced in the second language (English) and then (maybe) translated into Irish.

Yes, Irish gets the title of "first," but that and a buck fifty get you a cup of coffee...



(also, the US has no official language. some states have passed laws that define one or two (English or English and Spanish) official languages for themselves)


Irish went into decline because people perceived an economic benefit for their children to use English. Irish will never be able to reverse, or even stop, its decline without being perceived as having similar economic benefit. The brits did it by penalizing those who spoke only Irish, but there's no practical reason why positive reinforcement couldn't work (encouraging use of Irish rather than discouraging use of english). For instance, monetary incentives for radio/tv/newspapers/magazines who make 90% of their content available in Irish, and a somewhat smaller incentive for those who use 75% Irish (and even a smaller one yet for those who use 50% Irish). Other businesses would be trickier to check up on language usage, but I'm sure something practical could be worked out.

How about 100% tuition and fees (or a stipend, if such things are already covered in Ireland) to students attending (and successfully completing) an Irish-medium university program? (in the case of failing out, or leaving the program early, the monies would have to be repaid over a five year period or somesuch)

There's a perception out there that Irish is being kept 'artificially alive' through financial incentives. That there is favouritism. Its opponents (who I encounter on a regular basis elsewhere) will bring up the issue of grants, bonus marks for the LC etc. Or the former Civil Service requirements before they were dropped. This is of course ridiculous, for the most part. Who speaks Irish for money? Anyway, there's already all sorts of incentives to use Irish out there and there has been for many decades. Has it worked? If anything, it has engendered a lot of resentment towards the language. This idea that it can't stand on its own two feet.

I'm not convinced that even more laws and regulations, more grants or awards etc will do anything to benefit Irish.

Does positive reinforcement require a financial component?

quote:

the US has no official language. some states have passed laws that define one or two (English or English and Spanish) official languages for themselves)

You're right. California is an instance. Probably one of the last things that is left up to the states' authority in this country! Of course, since when did anyone obey a Constitution out here. If behemoth English wasn't an international language, it would be swallowed alive. There are times when I think I am in a foreign country. I encounter many instances of people not knowing a lick of English. Everyone has their freedom, and I want them to preserve their traditions, but I don't understand the perspective. If I moved to Germany, I would learn German. If I moved to Ireland, I would learn Irish. Etc. Even though I have knowledge of this well-known lingua franca English. California accommodates a HUGE number of languages and has a lot of immmigrants and foreigners in it! There is, however, no lack of FREE services teaching people English! But the situation here doesn't compare well with Ireland. The history and social situation is too different, I think.



SEC. 6.

(a) Purpose.

English is the common language of the people of the United States of America and the State of California. This section is intended to preserve, protect and strengthen the English language, and not to supersede any of the rights guaranteed to the people by this Constitution.

(b) English as the Official Language of California.

English is the official language of the State of California.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_3

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_State_Languages.svg

(Message edited by seánw on October 29, 2009)

A Danny,

Of course it doesn't require financial component. But in our modern world, money and its pursuit tends to drive all these days.

And it never stops amazing me what people are willing do for money.

Or more importantly, it never stops amazing me what people were willing to not do if they don't see monetary value in it.

For some Irish people, they see the revival of their language as a burden, something they "have" to do because the can't talk about the language without being swamped with all the issues facing it today. And if they "have" to do it, then they want to see some form of reward for their efforts. Now maybe it is a small group, and maybe it is large group...but it only takes one bad egg to spoil things.

Most these incentive programs, are very specific in nature. Why? Because they are geared more to satiating the few more than the whole.

Perhaps, and this is just my thoughts on the matter, if they would stop making all these specific incentives...and make more that act on the whole, we might see a more positive result from these types of programs.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on October 29, 2009)

quote:

For some Irish people, they see the revival of their language as a burden

True. And for some Irish people, they see the Irish language not as 'their language' but one which used to be widely spoken by their ancestors. Something that belongs to the distant past and has little or no relevance to their daily lives. Sad, but true. I don't think there's much point in thinking that one day the bulk of Irish people will turn around and 'come to their senses' and reinstate Irish into their lives. There's no magic formula. It would have happened by now.

Don't get me wrong though, I don't think this is as good as it gets. There's a lot of room for Irish to grow substantially as a minority language in Ireland. We're already seeing it in urban areas.

quote:

It is too easy to blame the State for the failure of the revival. That the state was negligent, unimaginative, authoritarian, obstructive, piecemeal, hostile and downright stupid at times, is beyond question. Even if it had been the opposite of all those things, the revival would have failed because the people in English speaking communities did not want to revert to Irish. Forcing them to learn Irish as a second language was one thing but the revival project wanted them to replace English with Irish as well. Why should they? English had become their language, in the same way as Irish was still the language of some Gaeltacht areas.

quote:

While the official status of the Irish language at the beginning of the 21st century is a bit like the position of the worker in the former Soviet Union - high in theory but very low in practice - all is not lost. The retreat of the State from the official policy of reviving or restoring Irish, has opened the door to the more realisable project of language maintainance, not just in the Gaeltacht but within minority networks of Irish speakers, who wish to use Irish in the family home, at work, at play, for cultural expression and for socialising.

- Donncha Ó hÉallaithe

Personally, I doesn't bother me when Irish people speak the auxiliary language; it's those monolingual fanatics who want to ram it down everyone's throat that get my goat.

I also object to all the money wasted in printing every single(!) official document in the auxiliary language when only a tiny minority of the population will ever bother to read them when there is dire need for the same money for more pressing purposes: government ministers' cuff-links, limousine hire, millionaire-bracket golden handshakes for every dodgy quango-boss in town, bonus payments for overpaid officials, the top-up differentials for the most expensive hospital consultants in Europe, ministerial pensions for stting TD's, a couple of hundred million in lawyers' fees pro tribunal, a couple of hundred million for barrel burst government software and voting machines, a couple of hundred billion for the banks... I mean how can we afford to print almost-unread documents in English when all those deserving causes are in bitter need of and crying out for funding!!

And why spend all that tax-payers' money on TV and radio channels in the auxiliary tongue (like RTE 1, 2 etc. etc.) when there is a choice of thousands of channels in the same tongue? Isn't the BBC available in all parts of the country nowadays? It would be much more economical to provide space for the few Irish-made programmes in the auxiliary tongue (that people actually watch - I mean, in between Premiership matches) on a second TG4 channel.

You're right about seeing some improvements in the urban areas Danny, and Ireland is not the only people noticing it...

In another thread I mentioned an off comment made on TG4:

"...Thar Sáile which was shown on October 18th was on the topic of Scotland this episode. The presenter was interviewing Alan Esslemont, BBC Alba's head of content, about his personal outlook for Scottish and he said ”It is a similar pattern as in Ireland…In the old gaeltacht communiites it is in decline, but it is growing in the cities...”

I am in agreement with this statement. The problem with this statement is that the Irish starting to bloom in these areas is something new. It is a fusion that we are really only starting to see the merit of. For most of us, it seems strange because it doesn't fit the image of Irish or English we have for now. In another century or so...who knows, this might be the language of Ireland. LOL

quote:

It is a similar pattern as in Ireland…In the old gaeltacht communities it is in decline, but it is growing in the cities...

What I think you're seeing is a pattern that is occurring outside of Irish or Scottish which is effecting them from the outside. For instance, the United States in the Great Depression was 90% rural, 10% urban. Now it is 90% urban, 10% rural. Ireland is experiencing the same thing every society has that has gone through an industrial revolution and come out the other side in the "good years", that is, an abundance of material things, centralization of production in a few hands, and a mass of dependent urbanites. The rural areas become viscerated as the populace flocks to the urban centers for jobs. This doesn't complete the picture, but I think accounts for a lot of the Irish declining in the Gaeltacht, and blossoming in the cities. Dublin is a big city with massive traffic problems, and swallowing up every suburb within reach. Galway too has huge traffic problems, and draws folks out of the Gaeltacht to it for jobs (or they commute in). How could you possibly convince someone to live out in the country laboring over sheep and pastureland when they could go into the city and do construction, or get a desk job, or something else, especially when you can't afford to live on the land anymore. Some would argue that the Gaeltacht has benefited, but I would argue that overall the Gaeltacht and rural areas have declined, and not just in the Irish language. I think almost every rural area has declined world-wide as there is a massive shift in population and production.

This isn't the whole story, but it accounts for a lot of it. The other thing accounting for it is the increased interest of Irish people in the language and the media creating the bridge. Just like other nations, Ireland, thought the Celtic Tiger, is/was transforming its society like it never has before. I guess we can call it the Grand Experiment. I don't think we know the final results. Experiments in food production, experiments in social mores, experiments in government, experiments in how the Irish language is transmitted and passed on. Etc.

quote:

Sad, but true. I don't think there's much point in thinking that one day the bulk of Irish people will turn around and 'come to their senses' and reinstate Irish into their lives. There's no magic formula. It would have happened by now.

You're right that the bulk of the Irish population aren't going to just decide out of the blue to take up Irish. Likewise the Irish people didn't adopt English - and abandon Irish, which is a separate issue - on a whim because they though it sounded nice.

People adopt a new language en masse when they come to associate it with the elite in their society and opportunities for success.
People abandon a language when they come to associate it with poverty, backwardness, failure and shame.
One of the greatest obstacles Irish has yet to overcome is its association in most people's minds with penury, parochialism, ruralism, unsophistication etc. Allowing this perception to continue, virtually unchallenged, has been one of the greatest mistakes of the past century.

Gaelic culture was (as I'm sure most here know well) highly sophisticated and intellectual, proud and self-confident.
We need individuals, organisations and events in this country to demonstrate the full richness and splendour of the Irish language and culture to people - without fear of "going over people's heads" or coming across as elitist. No more dumbed-down drivel presented through the medium of a foreign language but the real thing - "An Braon Glan".

Poor ragged Paddy, smoking a dudeen outside his ramshackle cabin, is NOT the true image of Ireland or Irishness. The opposite in fact. He is the image of Anglo-Ireland - the Ireland English rule and their Penal laws created. It is the English language and not the Irish language that people should associate with this image.
Irish is the tongue of the real Ireland and our true, noble heritage stretching back to before recorded history.
If people can be made to fully understand this half the battle for the Irish language will be won.

But even at that, most people will not be attracted enough by romantic/status-related ideas to put in the investment of learning another language.

The Irish gave up on Irish and picked up English for two reasons; speaking English allowed them economic opportunities, while speaking Irish denied them civil rights and economic opportunities.

Modern Ireland can't replicate that in full without getting fascist with the English speakers (who are in the majority), but they *can* replicate the positive end of it. They may not even have to spend more money, just spend the money they do more wisely, on programs better designed to succeed.

Right now, the incentives are not enough to entice people to put in the work of learning Irish, so they grouse and complain about the people who qualify or choose to undertake qualifying. The more enticing the incentives become, the more people will take advantage of them, putting the wallflowers of the revitalization movement more and more in the minority...after all, who complains about the existence of a program from which they are benefitting personally?

And yes, the incentives do have to be monetary...every positive incentive for learning English and abandoning Irish was monetary (the negative ones would be iron-fisted and could not be replicated in modern Ireland). Money is the one thing the government can be sure will appeal to everyone (everyone needs it).

I'm normally against any kind of social program or government subsidy, but the situation with the Irish language is fairly unique and represents the cultural lifeblood of the nation...without it, Ireland's culture would be as British as Cornwall...a few dishes and some folk-music distinction, but other than that, hardly enough to warrant self-determination and independence...

quote:

But even at that, most people will not be attracted enough by romantic/status-related ideas to put in the investment of learning another language.

Most people certainly aren't willing to expend time and effort learning something for which they have no esteem. Why would they.
Irish has had a serious image problem with the majority since the 19th century - associated (incorrectly) with the worst period in our history (roughly 1700-1870) while English is associated with moving away from this time into a vastly improved, modern age.
Being Irish-speaking is seen as part of the reason our ancestors lived in that state - that lifestyle was the quintessential Irish/Gaelic lifestyle while everything subsequent to that, everything modern, civilised is synonymous with English.
This false association - still alive and kicking in most peoples minds - is massively damaging to the Irish revival.

quote:

The Irish gave up on Irish and picked up English for two reasons; speaking English allowed them economic opportunities, while speaking Irish denied them civil rights and economic opportunities.

Adopting English need not, and should not, have meant the abandoning of Irish. They are two related but separate issues.
It's important to be clear about that because opponents of Irish will often bring up the undoubted advantages a monoglot English-speaker has over a monoglot Irish-speaker which on the surface can sound fair enough but, of course, its a non-argument. We weren't faced with the choice of either a solely English-speaking or solely Irish-speaking Ireland then and we're certainly not now either.
It's infinitely harder for them to argue for a monoglot English speaking nation when the other option is a bi-lingual nation - the best of both worlds.

The Irish people went out of their way to rid themselves of their national tongue not for any practical reason like economic success but because of the incredibly deep harm done to the national psyche, to the nation's self-esteem, during that black period culminating in the famine/genocide. That wound is still there to this day and will continue to affect our development, including the development of the Irish language, until its dealt with.

quote:

And yes, the incentives do have to be monetary

Yes monetary incentives are enormously important but they wont change the deeply ingrained negative attitudes held by so many.

quote:

...every positive incentive for learning English and abandoning Irish was monetary

Can't say I agree there. There was no positive or rational aspect to the decision to discard Irish. It was based entirely on feelings of shame and inferiority.

quote:

Money is the one thing the government can be sure will appeal to everyone (everyone needs it).

I fear anyone who places his hopes of real growth for the Irish language in an Irish government is bound for disappointment. They just don't care.

quote:

without it, Ireland's culture would be as British as Cornwall...a few dishes and some folk-music distinction, but other than that, hardly enough to warrant self-determination and independence...

Very true.
Speaking of folk music, even what we have is heavily adulterated. Scruffy-looking gits in ugly t-shirts strumming away on banjos and bouzoukis. They're more influenced by traditional American music than anything Irish.
Where are our harpers - playing real wire-strung cláirseacha? Why do our pipers dress up like Scotsmen? This is a troubled nation :)

"The Irish people went out of their way to rid themselves of their national tongue not for any practical reason like economic success but because of the incredibly deep harm done to the national psyche, to the nation's self-esteem,"

Hm...I'm afraid I can't agree with this. I find group psychology "fishy," and so am inclined to chalk it up to more practical decisions made on an individual basis.

Since the group in question is long-dead, we'll never be able to say for sure...



"There was no positive or rational aspect to the decision to discard Irish."

Sure there was, want to attend a college? English only. Want a job with the government? English only. Need to defend yourself in court? English only. Police giving you a hard time on the street? Better not try to respond in Irish...

...for hundreds of years...

The best way to learn a language is immersion. People discouraged their children from learning Irish so they would be forced to learn economically practical English better/faster/more completely. Many made the individual decision themselves for the same reason. Such would not be necessary today, but the British had laws designed to force a language shift through denial of economics and opportunity...an artificially created situation...



"I fear anyone who places his hopes of real growth for the Irish language in an Irish government is bound for disappointment. They just don't care."

I completely agree with you here.

I (almost) completely agree. There are a very few committed individuals in Government & The Civil Service: they can be helped/encouraged to improve the climate for Irish. But it will be grassroots action that improves things.

Quote: Sure there was, want to attend a college? English only. Want a job with the government? English only. Need to defend yourself in court? English only. Police giving you a hard time on the street? Better not try to respond in Irish...


Antaine, I'm not so sure you have a handle on the reality of the 19th century. I agree with you that English was the language of opportunity. But living in the 19th century was not like living in 2009. Today 50% go to university. [I assume when you say "college", you mean the higher education sector]. It is true that TCD required English, and I think so did Maynooth (set up as the Catholic College of St Patrick). What percentage of the population attended higher education in, say, the 1840s while An Gorta Mór was going on? I would think the problem for most Irish people was getting a basic education in those days, and the hedge schools were in English etc. University would have been a very distant prospect for a tiny minority. It seems difficult for us to conceive of the past - but Ireland in the 1840s bears no comparison with the US in 2009.

A job with government? Nowadays government employment is very widespread, but it has not always been the case that governments around the world spend around 50% of GDP. It may be difficult to believe it, but the Irish government was not a large employer in the 1840s. Your points on the courts and the police were correct. The use of languages other than English was banned in Great Britain in 1737. Ireland was not part of the UK at that point, but that law is still being upheld in Northern Ireland. The Kingdom of Ireland (a separate entity before 1801) may have had its own law on the subject, or may have just been included in the 1737 British law depending on the wording. The Irish police force was set up in 1822 and was quite large for the time period, with a ratio of around 1 constable for 1000 people in 1841, probably expanding a lot during the Tithe War.

In general what I am saying is that historical comment needs to take into account different circumstances. By the way, nowadays, an Act is in force requiring judges in GAeltacht areas to be fluent enough in Irish not to need an interpreter. But: when the language commissioner launched an investigation into the poor language skills of a judge appointed to the Donegal Gaeltacht the government stepped in to stop the investigation...

(http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-stops-probe-into-judges-irish-lang uage-skills-1342200.html)

Timd, the national schools insisted on English only. Institutions of higher education did not offer their courses through Irish. Yes, it is true that higher education was for the elite, but the perception was that if one wanted to change one's circumstances, all avenues were paved with English. Most peasants never had a dream of going to a university, but the upper and merchant classes did. The lower classes saw that education made for opportunity and staved off poverty...the education that was available to them was also available in English only.

It is also true that there were some community-run schools (I don't know if they would properly be called "hedge schools" in all periods) that offered instruction through Irish; while the quality of the education was very good (by some accounts rivalling the classical education the elites were getting in English), without conferring a diploma or degree and requiring a working knowledge of English, such education would have been good for little else but personal edification and interesting conversation.

The British bureaucracy of the 19th century did represent a way off the farm or out of the curragh (if a job could be landed). Now, that doesn't mean that many people were actually able to do that, but to the desperate, it might look like a 'way out.' After all, it wasn't as if there were retail or franchise jobs...maybe some shops in the towns and cities. I would hazard a guess that even unskilled labor jobs in the cities would have required at least a working knowledge of English to be hired in the first place.

And let's not forget that anyone desiring to leave for the US, Canada or Australia (or for their children to) would have known that English was the way of opportunity over there as well.

Every opportunity required English, and every sentence uttered in another language (in this case, Irish) was a missed opportunity to better cement the learning of one's English.

My point was that people don't learn a language because of romantic ideas, and they don't give one up purely on status. Indeed, if a language comes to have a low status it is because it is associated with impoverished communities and lack of opportunity for advancement, making the root cause of Irish's woes the British laws and practices that denied economic opportunity to Irish speakers and rewarded English speakers with a few open doors.

Well, Antaine, if you review my post, I did say that TCD taught in English. I just pointed out that the basic schooling, not in Irish, was much more of a problem. English-speaking Irish peasants could not have gone to university. There were no state grants for higher education back then, and no student loans either. Money was needed. The few jobs in the state bureaucracy would not have gone to Irish peasants, of whatever linguistic background. They probably went to "connected" people. I know this is hard to imagine, but Ireland of the 1840s was not like the USA of 2009. The national schools were more of a problem than the universities or civil service. Don't forget there was no social security, no TV and no radio to spread any language. There were the schools and the church, in English and Latin respectively, and the fact that jobs and opportunities were in the English-speaking cities.

This is not really contradictory to what you said. I am just pointing out the growth of the state hadn't really begun in the 1840s and was totally in its infancy even in the 1940s compared to what was going to come later.

Once the Penal Laws were gone, the Irish were free to speak what they wanted, although Daniel O'Connell and many others believed that the peasants would be better off abandoning IRish. The Gaelic Revival wasn't a samizdat movement - publication in Irish was not illegal. Some of the pro-Irish figures of the Revival could be quoted as saying other things earlier on. I read in the book I am reading that Patrick Dinneen began at Maynooth not so pro-Irish and spoke against the Irish language during a debate, before changing his mind. People are more complex than we sometimes have them as. Their views are more nuanced and changeable.

It would have helped had the hedge schools been all in Irish, but that is to try to change history with hindsight. I read recently a probably wild exaggeration that said that in the 1880s when the Revival began less than 50 people in Ireland could read Irish. I can dig out the quote - I think it was from the Revival debates in the old magazines.

It is sometimes easier to blame an outside force, but there was the external factor (which meant the civil service and national schools were in English), the internal factors (the support of the local Anglo-Irish gentry and Church for English, which explained the community schools being in English), and just the economic facts on the ground.

I believe it's a fundamental mistake to see the adoption of English and the abandonment of Irish as one and the same thing.
It's a cop out as it allows us to try to pretend to ourselves, and others, that the Irish people made a reasoned, albeit unfortunate, decision based on the circumstances of the time instead of it being an entirely emotional reaction to decades and centuries of degradation and misery - the shameful capitulation of an exhausted, broken people.
It gives a false facade of acceptability to the fact that we are primarily English-speaking today.
Why bother attempting to undo that progressive choice our wily old ancestors made???

I do accept that there was a popular idea about at the time that speaking Irish spoiled one's ability to pronounce English correctly but there's no way this and similar foolish beliefs explains the extent of the decline of Irish.

Ireland wasn't alone in spending time under tthe rule of a foreign power and many of those nations also found it beneficial to learn the imperial tongue but how many also took the decision to "replace" their own native languages with it?
Do the Czechs or Slovenes speak German?
None of the Baltic states ended up Russian speaking.
Slovakia spent centuries known simply as "Upper Hungary" yet there they are today with their native tongue, and dignity, intact.

quote:

It gives a false facade of acceptability to the fact that we are primarily English-speaking today.
Why bother attempting to undo that progressive choice our wily old ancestors made???

Is fíor dhuit. Is deacair an meon sin a athrú, go háirithe nuair a chreideann daoine go dtéann an Bhéarla mar theanga pobail i bhfad níos faide siar ná mar a théann.

Is dóigh liom féin go raibh an deis ann sna 1920í - ach scrios an Cogadh Cathartha an deis sin, agus a lán deiseanna eile, agus d'fhág muid le uasal aicme "má-nuadaithe", gaimbíneach, Béarla.

N'fheadar, anois agus lucht gaimbín nochtaithe mar cleasaithe, agus greim na hEaglaise - a rinne dochar don Eaglais agus don Stát araon - briste, an mbeidh athmhachnamh ann ar cén saghas Stáit atá uainn, agus ról an Ghaeilge ann. (Nílim ró dhóchasach!)

By the way, I started this thread, but it was a little tongue in cheek! Obviously penal laws for Irish would be unjust! Of course, the whole culture of speaking Irish rests on the enthusiasm of people who want to speak it. I am not sure about forcing people who don't want to learn it to learn it, but if there was an area where most people felt strongly about reviving Irish, there would be a good case to support them. I have imagined, eg Co. Tyrone holding a vote and deciding to become gradually a Gaeltacht, based on the enthusiasm in the North for Irish. As the population is quite low in Tyrone, the number of school is actually limited. So it would be feasible to get enough teachers to make ever school in Tyrone a Gaelscoil, and then see where you go with that. Ultimately, the idea of a whole community being IRish-speaking depends on enthusiasm among the community.

Of course, the whole culture of speaking Irish rests on the enthusiasm of people who want to speak it.

That's it in a nutshell.

You can bring a horse to water...

quote:

Is dóigh liom féin go raibh an deis ann sna 1920í - ach scrios an Cogadh Cathartha an deis sin, agus a lán deiseanna eile, agus d'fhág muid le uasal aicme "má-nuadaithe", gaimbíneach, Béarla.

D'aontóchainn go hiomlán leat annsoin. Ag deireadh na tréimhse 1916-1923 bhí a lán de cheannairí ab fhearr na hathbheochana marbh nó scartha óna chéile agus ní raibh sé de thoil ag na polaiteoirí nua nó ag an bpobal (traochta ó choinbhleacht) dul ar aghaidh leis an dtionnscadal náisiúnta.

Is beag rud ab áiseamhla don tír ag an am soin ná aicme Ghaedhluighthe, dhíograiseach a chur de réir a chéile i n-ionad an aicme úd a ndearna tú tagairt dóibh i suidheamhanna tábhachtacha san tsochaidhe - an státseirbhís, an córas oideachais (go háirithe na hollscoileanna) agus na meadhain.
Is iad an dream is mó a bhfuil an meon aigne a luadhas i mo theachtaireachtaí is luaithe acu agus, mar gheall ar a stádas, is mó a chothuigheann agus a leathnuigheann é.

quote:

Of course, the whole culture of speaking Irish rests on the enthusiasm of people who want to speak it.

And that enthusiam rests on pride in and esteem for the language.

(Tá súil agam go bhfuil mo chuid drochGhaedhilge in-tuigthe)

Hello Timd,

Don't worry if you feel you started a wildfire with this topic. I doubt anyone every thought you were serious with your suggestion ;-)

When it comes to the Irish language, the Irish, the English language, and the English in any combination you can imagine...there will be these types of debates.

While I personally think the problems started earlier, without question the 19th century was a very bad century for the history of the Irish language. Two famines, aggressive foreign controls, rapid world changes (science, technology, industry, social reform...) all had an impact on the language.

And here is were those who care about the language are left scratching their heads because we want to have a target to point fingers at, but we just don't know who to blame yet.

Do we blame England, or the English speaking world, for its impact on Ireland, the Irish, and the language?

Do we blame Ireland, or the Irish, for being impacting on by England and the English speaking world?

Both sides had a part in the current state of the language.

And while it does little good to debate a history we cannot change when it is the future of the language we should really have our eyes on, these debates serve as a mechanism for venting the strong passions of those who have dedicated themselves to the language and are doing their part no matter how big or small to the keeping the language and interest in the language alive.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on November 01, 2009)

quote:

It is true that TCD required English, and I think so did Maynooth (set up as the Catholic College of St Patrick)

According to The Oxford Companion to Irish History, one quarter of those who entered St Patrick's College, Maynooth when it was founded in 1795 were Irish monoglots.

Regarding the massive language shift which occurred in the 19th century, I'm in agreement with James_murphy for the most part, but I think we shouldn't underestimate the influence of the English speaking elite in the country. I'm referring of course to that community which largely resisted full scale 'gaelicisation' and although many acquired a working knowledge of Irish, retained English as their mother tongue. People sometimes talk as if there were just one massive, homogenous bloc of people who discarded Irish en masse in a mere two generations or whatever, but it's not that straightforward. Ever since the first Norman landing in 1167, there has been an English speaking community in Ireland. In other words, only a section of the population switched languages, although it was a very large section indeed. The clear majority.

What was once a minority language under severe threat (English), became the dominant language. Norse, Anglo-Norman French, English...speakers of all these languages switched to Irish at one time or another.

Can I just comment on the idea

quote:

no one not fluent in Irish can inherit or own property

I watched a program a good while back about An Rinn, Port Láirge. From what I remember they were saying the Gaeltacht area was being diluted by english speakers because it was cheaper to buy/build property there than 20 miles up the road. What are the laws that protect Gaeltacht areas from this happening, if there are any?

When you look at Bóthar Seoighe, i mBéal Feirste which must be one of the smallest Gaeltachts, It started off with 5 or so houses but then land was left to the Gaeilgeoirs close to the existing houses and they were able to build a new street and I would say there are now roughly 20 houses in total. So, what I am getting at is in terms of trying to preserve the Gaeltacht areas, is there anything in place by law to preserve the areas? Do Gaeilgeoirs get preference for housing?

Quote from Danny2007: According to The Oxford Companion to Irish History, one quarter of those who entered St Patrick's College, Maynooth when it was founded in 1795 were Irish monoglots.

Thank you. I didn't know that, and it is interesting.

Quote from Damian: I watched a program a good while back about An Rinn, Port Láirge. From what I remember they were saying the Gaeltacht area was being diluted by english speakers because it was cheaper to buy/build property there than 20 miles up the road. What are the laws that protect Gaeltacht areas from this happening, if there are any?

I thought the Gaeltacht grant was only 4000 euros. Is it still going during the cutbacks?

Quote: When you look at Bóthar Seoighe, i mBéal Feirste which must be one of the smallest Gaeltachts, It started off with 5 or so houses but then land was left to the Gaeilgeoirs close to the existing houses and they were able to build a new street and I would say there are now roughly 20 houses in total. So, what I am getting at is in terms of trying to preserve the Gaeltacht areas, is there anything in place by law to preserve the areas? Do Gaeilgeoirs get preference for housing?

Shaws Road is not a traditional Irish-speaking area and it is not in the Republic of Ireland, so the Republic's grants for building homes in the Gaeltacht has precisely no impact on property developments on the Shaws Road. Anyone can move to a Gaeltacht in the RoI, regardless of language ability. It would be difficult to have it otherwise in a free country, especially as your best chance of learning Irish would be to move to the Gaeltacht. Some Gaeltacht areas are very rural with low population density--you could move there to learn Irish and find that you had to make an extraordinary effort to meet people. Irish-speaking cafés in urban areas might give a better chance to practice than actually living in a Gaeltacht.

quote:

Shaws Road is not a traditional Irish-speaking area and it is not in the Republic of Ireland, so the Republic's grants for building homes in the Gaeltacht has precisely no impact on property developments on the Shaws Road.

Timd, I was using it as an example of land being left to be built on for homes for the Gaeilgoirs only - and it linked to the original subject of no one not fluent in Irish can inherit or own property. Not meaning to detract from my main message but I'm not sure what you mean by 'traditional', been a Gaeltacht area for over 30 years.

(Message edited by damian on November 02, 2009)

Quote: I'm not sure what you mean by 'traditional', been a Gaeltacht area for over 30 years.

It has been an area where people have chosen to revive Irish. Is it officially recognised today? If it is then that is recent. I am quite sure it hasn't been officially recognised as a Gaeltacht for 30 years.

It comes down to what is the definition of Gaeltacht. The Raith Cairn colony was not initially recognised as a Gaeltacht, because those people moved in from Galway. They did not speak "Meath Irish". But after a campaign it was recognised in the 1960s that they did speak traditional Irish - they were families who had always spoken Irish, so the fact they had moved to Meath did not prevent them from being a Gaeltacht.

You could argue that an Irish-speaking café is a Gaeltacht, and that estates where learners of Irish decide to all speak Irish from now on are Gaeltachtaí [which is what Shaws Road is]. Actually, there are many more of those. I think there is a non-traditional Gaeltacht at Glanmire in Cork - and a college and all sorts, and it is now getting funding. See http://www.pobail.ie/en/PressReleases/2003/December/htmltext,3935,en.html for funding of the college there.

Arguably, the deontas should be paid to people anywhere in Ireland whose children pass the Scéim Labhartha Gaeilge test. And any communities anywhere who choose to revive Irish should be of interest to and be funded by the Minister of the Gaeltacht.