Hello! I am brand new to the forums, so I thought I would leave a message introducing myself. My name is Ginny, and I am an absolute beginner at learning the Irish language. I am from the great sunshine state of Florida, and love living here.

I hope you all will be forgiving if I happen to throw some very bad Irish your way, and patient if I ask too many questions. =-)

Thank you! Look forward to meeting you all.

Fáilte go Daltaí na Gaeilge, a Fhéileacán. You speak to the heart of this site. No need to ask forgiveness for being a learner. Everyone here to some degree is a learner. (Hence, the name of the site.) Some of us just have more to learn than others. After nearly 10 years, I'm still among those with much to learn. Ask your questions, and rest assured the members of the board will will be happy to answer.

(Message edited by pádraig on September 05, 2009)

Seconded. Ráite go maith, a Phádraig.

Hi, Ginny ...

I'm an absolute beginner too (been at it a little under 3 months), and the people here have been wonderful to me. They are very knowledgeable, unbelievably generous with their time, and so tolerant of your mistakes that some of them won't correct more than one or two at a time, lest you get discouraged! That's a hard combination to find, even in a private tutor!

I saw that you're looking for a friend to work with on the language, and that you've been using Transparent Language's Learn Irish Now. I started with their current computer program BYKI - Before You Know It. And we're in the same time zone, which is helpful. But as 2 neophytes, we'll still need access to 'the experts' on this forum.

Are you interested in any particular dialect?

PS: Love your username. Didn't know the word for 'butterfly' before.

Dia dhuit, Ginny, I've only been conscious of learning Irish for about 63 years now. Watch out for some bad Irish from me too. Tá fáilte romhat. (You are welcome.)

Thank you all for the welcome! I've been going to the phrases section of the website, writing everything down in my notebook, and studying it. I'm still not too sure of my pronunciations, but the sound files attatched are very helpful.

Pádraig and Aonghus, I'm glad to know I'm not alone in learning. I'll try not to let the fear of looking stupid get in the way of my asking some silly questions. lol

Linda_Kathleen, I would be extremely grateful to work with you. I am not sure which dialect I would be interested in. Is there one that is most common? My yahoo messenger name is feileacan82 (no fadas). I'm usually online in the evenings on weekdays, although tomorrow being Labor Day, I'll be off all day. As for weekends, well I could be on any time of day, but we can a meeting time worked out.

Taidhgín, 63 years? I bet there is a lot you can teach me about the language then. Guess I know who to direct all the questions too. lol

Fáilte, a Fhéileacán. It is great to see someone from a warm part of the world. A recent thread here was about the many words in Irish for rain so a liberal dose of sunshine would be nice.

Best of luck in your studies and remember to have fun.

To anyone who, like Ginny and me, is just starting out in the study of Irish, a free online course at yahoo.groups started this past week, and as far as I know, it's still possible to register and catch up. (There's only been one lesson so far, and it was very introductory.) If you're interested, registration is a multi-step process (register with http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety, wait for approval, register with http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philostartingtolearn, wait for approval), so you might not want to wait too long. Approval, by the way, is just a formality -- nothing to do with one's qualifications (or lack thereof).

For anyone further along in their studies, they have many other levels of classes (free) as well, but I think they all require 'startingtolearn' first. Though perhaps they accept equivalencies, like proof that you don't need it.

Please note that this post is in no way intended as an endorsement of the course. I've only just joined, so I can't speak to the merits. I just wanted others to be able to take advantage of the timing if they so choose.

The lessons Linda refers to are based on "Progress in Irish" by Máiréad Ni Ghráda. The course work is broken into units of 15 lessons each, and I don't mind endorsing the project. The faculty is without exception committed to the Philo-Celtic Society's mission to further the study of Irish, and each teacher is sympathetic to the needs of beginners. A copy of the text is an absolute necessity, and it may take some time to locate one.

Quick addendum to Pádraig's message. At first glance, it might look like a contradiction, but it's not.

The introductory course I mentioned, called 'Starting to Learn', does not require any text. Such materials as are involved are all provided via emails and links. Beginning with Level II, the beginner and intermediate courses use the text Pádraig mentioned.

I joined this group sometime ago, and it was most helpful in teaching pronunciation and grammar rules. I had to stop for a while because I was planning to go back to college this Fall, and I didn't think I would have time for it. Plans changed, however, so I've picked my Irish back up. I am going to rejoin this Philo-Celtic groups also.

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Fáilte go Daltaí na Gaeilge, a Fhéileacán.

Bearing in mind that I'm still working on my vocatives, shouldn't that be a Fhéileacáin?

I'm not positive what Ginny stands for (Virginia, perhaps), but if we pretended it was Irish, what would its vocative be? a Ghinnigh?

quote:

Bearing in mind that I'm still working on my vocatives, shouldn't that be a Fhéileacáin?

Indeed it should. Good catch!

quote:

I'm not positive what Ginny stands for (Virginia, perhaps), but if we pretended it was Irish, what would its vocative be? a Ghinnigh?

Personally, I would transcribe Ginny as Giní (vocative Ghiní), as the Muscraí pronunciation of Ghinnigh would be like "Ying-yij". (Final slender gh is always pronounced in Munster.) Moreover, the spelling Ghinnigh suggests a nominative form *Ginneach which makes very little sense.

I didn't slenderise the final consonant either but I was a bit torn. I understood the rule with names to be that you slenderise a man's name but not a woman's. But then, 'féileacán' is masculine. I ended up copping out and copying the earlier poster (not that I am blaming anyone!).

I have now looked up the formation of the vocative and see that my understanding was a bit simplistic!

Yeah, on second thought the name really does occupy something of a grey area. I think either option can be defended. As we discovered in that recent thread on the vocative, the last word is generally the preference of the individual involved.

Grey indeed. Consider Butterfly McQueen of Gone-with- the-Wind fame. Her name was Butterfly; she was not a butterfly. Hence, no slenderization.
I've been assuming that our Butterfly is a girl. An mícheart an dheastógáil seo?

(Message edited by pádraig on September 09, 2009)

quote:

An mícheart an dheastógáil seo?

Oops. Caught out by the ambiguity of English again Pádraig.

Deastógail (literally Nice taking) applies only to the assumption of Mary.

The word you are looking for here is "tuiscint" (understanding).

Focal lists some others, but they are a bit abstruse.
http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=assumption

quote:

I understood the rule with names to be that you slenderise a man's name but not a woman's.

The rule for the vocative of men's names is different from women's? That's the first I've heard of it! (Which means nothing, of course.) Could someone please provide a source for that, so I can look into it further? Thank you.

(Message edited by linda_kathleen on September 09, 2009)

That's because the first declension is made up of masculine nouns only and has a vocative in the same form as the gentive (slender consonant). The others are like the nominative. It's only the first declension, not all masculine nouns.

A Féileacáin seems correct to me. Gender is grammatical, not anatomical. I would only think this would be feminine gender if that was her real name, not a handle, or there was some abiguity as to whether it was a female or not. But like Aonghus' name, there seems to be room for both views.

So, in the case of non-proper nouns, slenderization of the vocative depends on the declension of the grammatical gender of that noun, and not about the anatomical gender of the thing/person behind the noun. Masculine gender first declension slenderizes. All other declensions don't, nor feminine gender. Got it. Thanks, a Sheáin.

But what about proper nouns (names)? Proper nouns don't normally have a declension, do they? Or a gender, for that matter. Take Seán, for example. A male's name in Ireland. But in other countries, it's amazing how many baby girls have been given that name in the past few decades. Most times spelled 'Shawn', but sometimes 'Sean'. Do you need to know the gender of the person behind the name in that case? And how do you decide the declension of a man's name?

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A Féileacáin seems correct to me.

Why no lenition, a Sheáin?

Irish proper nouns do normally have a declension.

teach Sheáin = Seán's house - genitive formed by palatalization, in other words first declension
teach Mháirtín = Máirtín's house - genitive identical to nominative, in other words fourth declension
teach Dhiarmada = Diarmaid's house - genitive formed by depalatization + -a, in other words third declension

'Foreign' proper nouns, like other loanwords, are properly left undeclined (but are often lenited anyway, especially in speech.)
teach B(h)rett = Brett's house

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Why no lenition, a Sheáin?

Just a mistake. I even think I "proof-read" my mistake before posting. I make many of those!

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'Foreign' proper nouns, like other loanwords, ...

There is definitely a body of Irish names (first and last) that are well established in the language, have a standard declension, and are treated like that in speech. A foreign name, or a name that is not very common, could be regarded like thoses italicized words in texts (foreign loans that haven't quite made it). We know most of them, and feel they're part of our language, but grammatically don't treat them with the same rules. I believe some here have mentioned books which give the declensions for the common Irish names. They would have to give that title; I don't know it.

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So, in the case of non-proper nouns, slenderization of the vocative depends on the declension of the grammatical gender of that noun, and not about the anatomical gender of the thing/person behind the noun. Masculine gender first declension slenderizes. All other declensions don't, nor feminine gender. Got it. Thanks, a Sheáin.

Ná bí amaideach, a Linda, that would be far too simple! Inanimate nouns never slenderise in the vocative even when they are first declension masculine! The most common example is stór "treasure", a common term of endearment. Although you will occasionally see *a stóir, the only correct form according to the grammar of the standard dialect is a stór.

That's why I say an argument could be made either way for féileacán. If you were directly addressing a butterfly (say in a pastoral verse), then no question: The noun would be slenderised. But when you start using the term to refer to a living person, then the rules get fuzzier. If Féileacán were a woman's proper name, I would never slenderise it just as I would never slenderise "Siobhán" even though--formally--this declines otherwise exactly like "Seán". (E.g. Baile Shiobháin "Joanstown".)

But what about here, where it's an alias, or as a term of endearment? I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a hard-fast rule. So it's up to the intuition of individual speakers with the bearer herself having the last word.

quote:

Deastógail (literally Nice taking) applies only to the assumption of Mary.

Go raibh maith agat arís, a Aonghus. Matha, Eoin, agus An Dheastógáil anois. Cad é an chéad rud eile?

Oh, the bearer herself really doesn't mind either way.
=-) I have had Ginny mispronounced many times, and have had to answer to both Virginia and Jennifer. lol

A Fhéileacain or A Féileacan are both fine with me.

I hope Féileacán isn't overwhelmed by all this talk of declensions, proper nouns, vocatives etc.

Féileacán,

quote:

I am not sure which dialect I would be interested in. Is there one that is most common?

Regarding dialect, I'm partial to Conamara. It's by far the most widely spoken. In the Gaeltacht anyway. Beware the 'standard Irish' debates which somes rage here.

Buntús Cainte is a common learning aid for beginners. I have all three books with the CDs. The grammar is standard with Conamara pronunciation for the speech. It's quite old though, but helpful. No grammar discussion is included. It has helped me build up my listening skills and reading comprehension somewhat, but my ability to speak and write lags far, far behind.

Good luck and welcome to the site.

A Féileacan = A Phéileacán? (In Múscraí, this word is pronounced with a "p", so the lenited form is with "ph", i.e. /f/.)

Thank you, Danny! It is a bit overwhelming, but Linda_Kathleen has been very patient in trying to help me understand. =-)

quote:

In Múscraí, this word is pronounced with a "p"

Tá an ceart agat, a Dhomhnaillín!
As in the sentence: "Táid ag brú na bpéileacán as a chéile"

D'fhiafraigh Pádraig

quote:

Cad é an chéad rud eile?

Ag Dia féin atá fhios!