In response to one of the earlier posts on the thread about getting organized to learn, I am trying to commit approx 50 verbs to memory. I would like to learn the

Infinitive - Past - Hab.Present - Future - Noun Verb - Past Participle

Is there anywhere on the internet where I can hear these parts of the verbs pronounced. I don't want to spend hours learning them incorrectly. For example, the first verb on the list is To Come = "Tar"

Tar - Thainig - Tagann - Tiocfaidh - Teacht - Tagtha

It would be nice to know how the future and past participle are pronounced. I find some of these get weird. Would the "Tiocfaidh" be "Chokefah" or "Chokey" and the "Tagtha" be "tagah"? It would be wonderful if someone would pronounce "the chart" that was produced by Leon MacAogain 1990 Tht is used in so many classes. It must exist out there somewhere.

All help appreciated,

Faber MacMhaolain

It would be wonderful if someone would pronounce "the chart" that was produced by Leon MacAogain 1990

And if it doesn't exist in downloadable sound files, perhaps one of the fluent speakers here could be prevailed upon to post one up somewhere?

Not naming names, but, you know who you are. :D

I lár an tsamhraidh? I bhfad ró thé
Cá bhfuil an cairt seo?

Aongus:

Seo an cairt

http://www.dfwgaelicleague.com/files/GlanceCard.pdf

Ach tá ceist agam na dearbhaigh.

Is an fear TÚ! / Bí TÚ de man (you da man!)

Slán
FaberM

Is tusa an fear.

Ach ní mé, fós. Ní dúirt mé go ndeánfainn é!

I ain't promised nothing....I'll look at it. But it will be days before I do anything about it: I've done such things before, and they are time consuming when one has to wait until the kids are in bed etc...

Aongus:

My father suggested you could just make an MP3 reading the chart from left to right on the verbs. Folks could print it out and then listen to your recording perhaps put on the Daltai website.

grma,
Faber

quote:

Is there anywhere on the internet where I can hear these parts of the verbs pronounced. I don't want to spend hours learning them incorrectly. For example, the first verb on the list is To Come = "Tar"

Tar - Thainig - Tagann - Tiocfaidh - Teacht - Tagtha

For dialectal forms you'll find some on the page of my pocket dictionary : http://annexedicoirlfr.ifrance.com/remarquesvb.html
I may add pronunciation too.

I'll try to record these verbal forms for you (the main ones) but what dialect do you want?

quote:

I find some of these get weird. Would the "Tiocfaidh" be "Chokefah" or "Chokey"

tyokee in Ulster, tyokuh in Connachta
But the -(a)idh and -(a)igh endings are not pronounced the same way (in Munster and Ulster) when there's a subject pronoun after them or when there's another kind of subject.
For instance : tiocfaidh mé > tyokuh mah but tiocfaidh Seán > tyokee Shaan.

quote:

and the "Tagtha" be "tagah"?

tah-kuh in Munster.
In Connachta they'd say teagthaí : tyah-kee

I'd say stick with Ulster for me as that's pretty much
where all my study materials come from. This is very appreciated.

Faber

Ok, here are the Ulster forms of the regular verbs. I'm going to record them.


Begin, start.....Toisigh.....Thoisigh.....Toiseann.....Toiseochaidh.....toiseacht.....t oisithe
Buy.....Ceannaigh.....Cheannaigh.....Ceannann.....Ceannóchaidh.....ceannacht.... .ceannaithe
Finish.....Críochnaigh.....Chríochnaigh.....Críochnann.....Críochnóchaidh.....cr íochnú.....críochnaithe
Gather.....Cruinnigh.....Chruinnigh.....Cruinneann.....Cruinneochaidh.....cruinn iú.....cruinnithe
Go away.....Imigh.....D'imigh.....Imeann.....Imeochaidh.....imeacht.....imithe
Learn.....Foghlaim.....D'fhoghlaim.....Foghlaimeann.....Foghlaimeochaidh.....fog hlaim.....foghlamtha
Open.....Foscail.....D'fhoscail.....Fosclann.....Fosclóchaidh.....foscladh.....f oscailte
Play games.....Imir.....D'imir.....Imreann.....Imreochaidh.....imirt.....imeartha
Repair, mend.....Deisigh.....Dheisigh.....Deiseann.....Deiseochaidh.....deisiú.....deisi the
Rise, get up.....Éirigh.....D'éirigh.....Éireann.....Éireochaidh.....éirí.....éirithe
Tell.....Inis.....D'inis.....Inseann.....Inseochaidh.....inse.....instí
Tie.....Ceangail.....Cheangail.....Ceanglann.....Ceanglóchaidh.....ceangladh.... .ceangailte
Wake up.....Muscail.....Mhuscail.....Musclann.....Musclóchaidh.....muscailt.....musca ilte

Break.....Bris.....Bhris.....Briseann.....Brisfidh.....briseadh.....briste
Burn.....Dóigh.....Dhóigh.....Dóigheann.....Dóighfidh.....dódh.....dóite
Clean.....Glan.....Ghlan.....Glanann.....Glanfaidh.....glanadh.....glanta
Close.....Druid.....Dhruid.....Druideann.....Druidfidh.....druidim.....druidte
Cut.....Gearr.....Ghearr.....Gearrann.....Gearrfaidh.....gearradh.....gearrtha
Drink.....Ól.....D'ól.....Ólann.....Ólfaidh.....ól.....ólta
Fill.....Líon.....Líon.....Líonann.....Líonfaidh.....líonadh.....líonta
Leave.....Fág.....D'fhág.....Fágann.....Fágfaidh.....fágáil(t).....fágtha
Lose.....Caill.....Chaill.....Cailleann.....Caillfidh.....cailleadh.....caillte
Play instrument.....Seinn.....Sheinn.....Seinneann.....Seinnfidh.....seinm.....seinnt e
Put.....Cuir.....Chuir.....Cuireann.....Cuirfidh.....cur.....curtha
Read.....Léigh.....Léigh.....Léigheann.....Léighfidh.....léamh.....léite
Sell.....Díol.....Dhíol.....Díolann.....Díolfaidh.....díol.....díolta
Sing.....Ceol.....Cheol.....Ceolann.....Ceolfaidh.....ceol.....ceolta
Stay, wait.....Fan.....D'fhan.....Fanann.....Fanóchaidh.....fanacht.....fanta
Take off.....Bain de.....Bhain.....Baineann.....Bainfidh.....baint.....bainte
Take, build.....Tóg.....Thóg.....Tógann.....Tógfaidh.....tógáil(t).....tógtha
Throw, spend, wear.....Caith.....Chaith.....Caitheann.....Caithfidh.....caitheamh.....caite
Wash.....Nigh.....Nigh.....Nigheann.....Nighfidh.....ní.....nite
Write.....Scríobh.....Scríobh.....Scríobhann.....Scríobhfaidh.....scríobh.....sc ríofaí

(Message edited by Lughaidh on June 04, 2009)

Here are the recordings:

http://www.box.net/shared/v5mtxag5fk

For those who have a -(a)igh or -(a)idh ending (except the imperatives), I gave the two pronunciations (cf above) one after another. So for "thoisigh" i'll say "hoh-shee, ho-shuh" and then toiseann etc.


For the irregular verbs, please have a look at my page.
I've not recorded them, maybe I'll do that tonight.

Lughaidh:

Thank you so very very much for what you have done. You cannot imagine how helpful this is. It would be wondeful if a volunteer from Daltai could put the chart and your pronunciation guide on the website. I am assuming that your accent here was Ulster?

FaberM

Aye, Northwestern Donegal accent, and verbal forms of the same dialect.
(In southern parts of Ulster, they'd have small differences; like "ceannaíonn", instead of NW ceannann).

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Lughaidh!!

Níl a bhuíochas oraibh :-)

Caveat:
As a Connacht speaker of an Caighdeán Oifigiúil myself I have to say that unless a learner is going to plunge wholeheartedly into one dialect and not write the language at all these spellings are far removed from the Standard Language and having spent a lifetime listening to Irish I never noticed the "Toiseann" form as spoken by Lughaidh (That is not to say it does not exist. It may but I never noticed it or came across it and I speak more Irish every day than most with a person reared through Irish by a Donegal native speaker, one of the early Timirí employed by Conradh na Gaeilge):

Begin, start.....Toisigh.....Thoisigh.....Toiseann.....Toiseochaidh.....toiseacht.....t oisithe and so on.

There are not many sites that I know of on the Internet that discuss Irish grammar sensibly and so I imagine the young Leaving Cert students such as Yobar23 and Faberm who are more IT literate than I lurk here occasionally and will not thank us for presenting them with non-standard written forms. I accept that these spellings may represent the pronunciation in North West Donegal but if I were learning a foreign language and discovered that I had wandered up a cul de sac and was learning stuff that is not widely used I'd be discouraged and annoyed. We need to emphasise that they represent one Northern dialect in the spoken form not in writing.

Here are the standard versions of the words above: Tosaigh, Thosaigh, Tosaíonn, Tosóidh, Tosú, Tosaithe.

Tosaíonn and Tosóidh are both distinctive features of An Dara Réimniú The Second Conjugation which are almost lost in Lughaidh's pronunciation.

One of the consequences of Raidió na Gaeltachta and TG 4 over the last forty years or so and the teaching of Irish in the schools over the last hundred years was that speakers of the various dialects learned how to understand each other. Historically it was one of the early "issues" to be resolved in the revival of Irish.

Initially they all thought their own dialect was the only correct one, the most beautiful, the most accurate, and the only one worth learning. Then with modern communications beginning with the bicycle they discovered the strengths and attractions of the other dialects.

When they had become familiar with each other's dialects they learnt how to make themselves understood to people outside their area. They knew how to ease up on the extreme features that distinguished their own dialect for the sake of their hearers. It was said of the Gaeltacht migrants to Baile Gib, an estate divided in the 1930s among people from many Gaeltacht areas as well as the former workers who also received land, that they failed to make Irish their community language because the only standard language they had in common was English. In the neighbouring Gaeltacht colony of Rathcairn Irish flourished because they all spoke the same Conamara dialect. Nevertheless both of those areas still cling to the language and are centres of Irish-medium education.

All the dialects have some sounds and vocabulary and grammar in common. The tendency is to seek to make yourself understood at all costs. We need to concentrate on learning the forms and grammar which are understood and acceptable everywhere.

Learning a lesser-used dialect of a lesser-used language and emphasising the points of extreme divergence is not helpful in my humble opinion. Especially by a young person with a limited amount of time and exams to pass. I would recommend sticking to the written standard language forms albeit with an Ulster accent and pronunciation in speech if preferred.

quote:

Caveat:
As a Connacht speaker of an Caighdeán Oifigiúil myself I have to say that unless a learner is going to plunge wholeheartedly into one dialect and not write the language at all these spellings are far removed from the Standard Language and having spent a lifetime listening to Irish I never noticed the "Toiseann" form as spoken by Lughaidh (That is not to say it does not exist.

You'll hear it in Northern Donegal.

quote:

We need to emphasise that they represent one Northern dialect in the spoken form not in writing.

If you spell "tosaíonn" and say "toiseann", the learner will wonder why it is that different... why it is spelt broad and pronounced slender, why aíonn becomes (e)ann... Writing according to the pronunciation will help to remember the pronunciation, even if it's not standard spelling... Anyway the standard spelling is written on the document.

quote:

Here are the standard versions of the words above: Tosaigh, Thosaigh, Tosaíonn, Tosóidh, Tosú, Tosaithe.

We know, they are written on the document (see the link above)...

quote:

We need to concentrate on learning the forms and grammar which are understood and acceptable everywhere.

As far as I know and as you said, all speakers are understood by the other speakers anyway. So let the people speak in their own dialect, there's no problem.
Saying that standard Irish serves to make people understand one another is a false argument, because they already understand one another when all of them speak their own dialect...

quote:

Learning a lesser-used dialect of a lesser-used language and emphasising the points of extreme divergence is not helpful in my humble opinion. Especially by a young person with a limited amount of time and exams to pass.

Faberm said he was used to Ulster Irish, so I gave him Ulster Irish forms. He didn't asked for Standard stuff.

quote:

I would recommend sticking to the written standard language forms albeit with an Ulster accent and pronunciation in speech if preferred.

Standard Irish with an Ulster accent? What's the point? Pretending you speak Ulster Irish because of your accent?
Why would you pronounce with "an Ulster accent" words and forms that don't exist in Ulster Irish? What's the point?

quote:

There are not many sites that I know of on the Internet that discuss Irish grammar sensibly and so I imagine the young Leaving Cert students such as Yobar23 and Faberm who are more IT literate than I lurk here occasionally and will not thank us for presenting them with non-standard written forms. I accept that these spellings may represent the pronunciation in North West Donegal but if I were learning a foreign language and discovered that I had wandered up a cul de sac and was learning stuff that is not widely used I'd be discouraged and annoyed. We need to emphasise that they represent one Northern dialect in the spoken form not in writing.

I'm an old student of languages, since the 70s, but relatively new to Irish. I have a method I've developed for myself that's existed since '82, during immersive Russian training. Part of this method is archiving for later more advanced features that are newly available to me. Lughaidh's material is an example of this.

Thank you for your concern for the problems of beginners, Taidhgín. I do appreciate how much dialects may diverge from more common Irish textbooks. My introduction to learning materials was Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish. Talk about a little confusion when I started seeing differences in Ní Ghráda's Progress In Irish text. ;)

If someone wishes to post different pronunciations of the "chart"....have at it. I am just so grateful to Lughaidh to have SOMETHING. Thank God I now have at least heard something. If someone wishes to present "Standard", then have at it. Lughhaidh has just done SOMETHING, and I for one am very very appreciative.

Is maith sín,(said with the strongest Uladh accent I can conjure up!)
Faberm (Vive an Uladh!)

Ps. Tá sé iontach maith é, Lughaidh é féin ( as Cul Raithin é)

I imagine the young Leaving Cert students such as Yobar23 and Faberm

Is an-dócha, a chara, gurb é Faber an ball gníomhach is síne den fhóram so fé láthair. Measaim go bhféadaimid muinín a chur ann go bhfuil a fhios aige cad a thúrfaidh cúnamh dá staidéar Gaelainne is gan aon dochar a dhéanamh do.

A good student should concentrate on being able to use one dialect (or the standard) actively but aim to be able to understand the extreme divergence of real Irish that is out there passively. If students are confused, it usually because they fail to grasp this basic principal and mistakenly think that they must learn all the dialects and complexity of the language to the point of being able to use it all actively rather than just passively understanding most of it.

Faber has chosen Ulster Irish as his core focus and specifically asked for Ulster Irish pronunciation. Lughaidh delivered exactly that without any pretense about it being otherwise. He has done an excellent job, even providing a transcript so that students can check for the differences visually to know which bits are standard and which bits are local.

I found it to be a very valuable reference even though my interest in Northern Donegal dialect is mostly passive. By noting where the differences are between Northern Donegal and the Irish I already know, I may even be able to apply it to my active usage when in the region. Thank you, Lughaidh.

If other teachers would prefer the standard or another dialect, please try sitting down and making a recording of that dialect or the standard yourself (also known as a positive contribution) rather than criticizing (also known as a negative contribution). (And if students want a specific dialect, please don't hesitate to ask and someone may be prompted to provide one for you.)

Like Aonghus, I am pressed for time right now, otherwise I would like to make a recording in Connacht Irish (or at least standard with a Connacht accent.) Fair play to Lughaidh for actually taking the time and making his recording promptly available to Faber and us all.

quote:

Lughaidh é féin ( as Cul Raithin é)

Bhail, chan as Cúil Raithin mé, ach chaith mé deich mí mar mhac léinn ins an ollscoil sin le feabhas a chur ar mo chuid Gaeilge agus d'fhoghlaim mé cuid mhór rudaí thall, le múinteoirí don scoith.

The 11 Irregular verbs
Past tense
Come/Tar. Ar tháinig tú? - tháinig/ níor tháinig
Hear/Cluin. Ar chuala tú? - chuala/ níor chuala
Eat/ Ith. Ar ith tú? - d'ith / níor ith
See/ Feic. An bhfaca tú? - chonaic/ ní fhaca
Say / Abair. Ar dhúirt tú? - dúirt / ní dúirt
Go/ Téigh. An ndeachaigh tú? - chuaigh/ ni dheachaigh
Get/Faigh. An bhfuair tú? - Fuair/ ní bhfuair
Give/ Tabhair. Ar thug tú? - thug/ níor thug
Be/ Bí. An raibh tú? - bhí/ ní raibh
Catch / Beir. Ar rug tú? - rug/ níor rug
Do / Déan. An ndearna tú? - rinne/ ní dhearna

i hope these may be of use to someone as a guide to pronounching the 11 irregular verbs in the past tense in Irish , if so i could put them in natural everyday sentences.

http://www.box.net/shared/pccvemrjrf

can you let me know what the sound quality is like and if you would like any more sound bites like these

http://www.box.net/shared/6qzohvdr11

Come – Cén t-am ar tháinig tú isteach aréir? - What time did you come in last night?
Hear - Cá háit ar chuala tú an nuacht? – Where did you hear the news?
Eat – Cén t-am ar ith tú do bhricfeasta?- What time did you eat your Breakfast?
See – An bhfaca tú an scannán nua sa phictiúrlann? Did you see the new movie in the cinema?
Say - Ar dhúirt tú do pháidreacha aréir - Did you say your prayers last night?
Go – An ndeachaigh tú chuig an rang Gaeilge inniu? – Did you go to the Irish Class today?
Get - An bhfuair tú rud éigin le hithe go fóill?- Did you get something to eat yet?
Give - ar thug tú an leabhar do Sheán? – Did you give the book to Seán?
Be – An raibh tú ag an bhialann aréir? – Were you at the Restaurant last night?
Catch – Ar rug tú ar iasc ar maidin? – Did you catch a fish this morning?
Do - An ndearna tú an lón inniu? – Did you make the lunch today?

Let me know your thoughts ,,

Some notes for learners of Irish:

1. "ar" as a verbal particle and past interrogative of the copula is pronounced differently from "ar" as a preposition. This is true even in standard Irish; you can confirm this in Foclóir Póca.

In a phrase such as ar an gcloch, ar is pronounced /er'/, e.g., /er' ə glox/ .

In ar tháinig tú? , etc., the "ar" should be /ər/, not /er'/.

2. The particle an should be pronounced /a/ before a consonant, /an/ before a broad vowel (a, o, u), and /an'/ before a slender vowel (i, e). Thus, the "n" is not normally pronounced before a consonant; an bhfuair should be /a wu:ər'/ not */an wu:ər'/, etc.

3. Beware of people who use an English "r" in their Irish. It is a hallmark of non-native speakers.

Erratum:

2. above should have read:

The particle an should be pronounced /ə/ before a consonant, /ən/ before a broad vowel (a, o, u), and /ən'/ before a slender vowel (i, e). Thus, the "n" is not normally pronounced before a consonant; an bhfuair should be /ə wu:ər'/ not */ən wu:ər'/, etc.

quote:

Say / Abair. Ar dhúirt tú? - dúirt / ní dúirt

Sorry but in Standard Irish (since you've given the standard forms), it is "An ndúirt tú?". What you wrote is halfway between the standard and Ulster (many people in Ulster write like you, ie. they don't want to go too far from the standard but they want to show people use "ar" in Ulster).
Actually, according to the pronunciation, one should write "ar ú(i)rt" in Ulster since the dh is never heard : the "dúirt" form has been interpreted as "d'ú(i)rt" by Ulster people, so with other particles you drop the d' just as with any verb that begins with a vowel (d'ól > níor ól...). So: d'ú(i)rt, gur ú(i)rt, níor ú(i)rt, ar ú(i)rt, srl.

Here are Ulster forms as used in Northwestern Donegal (there are variations, even in the pronunciation of some of them) :


Come_____Tar_____Thanaig, ní thanaig__________Thig_____Tiocfaidh_____a theacht_____
Give/bring_____Tabhair_____Thug, ní thug__________bheireann, ní thabhrann_____bheirfidh, ní thabharfaidh_____tabhairt_____tugtha
Eat_____Ith_____D'ith, níor ith__________íosann_____íosfaidh_____ithe_____ite
Hear_____Cluin_____Chualaidh níor chuala, ní chuala sé__________Cluineann_____Cluinfidh_____cluinstean_____cluinste
Catch_____Beir_____Rug, níor rug__________Beireann_____Béarfaidh_____breith_____bertha
Say_____Abair_____D’ú(i)rt, níor ú(i)rt__________Deir, deireann, ní abrann_____Déarfaidh, ní abróchaidh_____ráidht_____ráite
Do/make_____Déan_____Rinn, ní thearn/thearr__________ghníonn, ní théanann_____ghéanfaidh, ní théanfaidh_____déanamh_____déanta
Go_____Gabh_____Chuaigh, ní theachaigh__________Théid_____Rachaidh_____a ghabháil_____
Get/find_____Faigh_____Fuair, ní bhfuair__________Faghann_____Gheobhaidh, ní bhfuighidh_____fáil(t)_____fáite
See_____Feic_____Choinic, ní fhacaidh__________tchí, ní fheiceann_____tchífidh, ní fheicidh_____feiceáil(t)_____feicithe
Be_____Bí_____Bhí, ní rabh_____tá, níl, go bhfuil_____Bíonn_____beidh_____bheith_____


Recordings : http://www.box.net/shared/4x7qy8djf6


Once again, the -(a)igh and -(a)idh endings are pronounced [ə] when followed by a pronoun subject as mé, tú, sé, sí, muid, sibh, siad..., and [i] when followed by another subject.

like you say many people write like me and speak like me , its called Ulster, but i wasnt going for perfection, i was writting what i say , im well aware of an ndúirt tú , but why confuse learners , its why i leave the "An" in the pronunciation as well , it can fall of later. if we write as we speak , its called
" Phoenetics " like an (fh)uinneog , to me thats just wrong , but you seem to prefer it, thats your choice.

quote:

im well aware of an ndúirt tú , but why confuse learners , its why i leave the "An" in the pronunciation as well , it can fall of later

I just wondered why you gave only standard forms except "ar dhúirt". I wrote a note so that learners know, because that form may confuse learners, since it's a non-standard form among standard forms in your message.

I don't write exactly as I pronounce, but according to the etymology and morphology of the dialect forms.
You may think it's wrong, but to me, Gaeltacht Irish is less wrong than standard Irish because the Gaeltacht dialects are natural dialects (transmitted from generation to generation since the beginning of times) while Standard Irish is just an artificial dialect that was created in offices in the 50s.

So, that is my choice and my own opinion, and it's ok if there are people who don't agree with me, everybody is free.

Everyone is free , you are right , and yes i did battle with myself as too which one too include , and i opted for ar dhúirt ( Rightly or wrongly), as its what i say , but its good to be aware of the An ndúirt , as well ,
and no i dont think that its wrong , i just firmly believe that the CO has its place , and shouldnt be put down as inferior , like i have said before , to me , Irish is Irish is Irish , and there are some speakers better than others in all Dialects including the CO

In my opinion, Standard Irish shouldn't be considered as Gaeltacht Irish is, simply because Gaeltacht Irish is natural, Standard Irish isn't. Gaeltacht Irish has traditional speakers, Standard Irish hasn't since it's artificial.
To certain people, the difference may be important, not for some others.

yeah i agree in a way , it is what it is , i just wonder how many people are fluent in the standard or would give anything to be fluent in the Standard , and as they go along with their live learn the other dialects and get the richness and the variety of the Language with Meeting Native speakers and going to Gaeltachtaí. And i also think " Artificial" is much too strong a word.

Artificial = non natural.
I didn't want that word to sound pejorative, just to say that Standard Irish is not a natural dialect, it has been made up.

yeah i guess you could say it was made up , but what was it made up of ? not thin air , it was the gatherings of the various Dialects , So thats why i am of the opinion its still %100 , but i know a lot of people dont feel that way , its not a New Language , its still %100 Irish that almost any Irish speaker would understand , its just how we percieve words , i percieve Artifical to mean made from Nothing or something Man made or something New , when Really CO is just a mixture of Gaeltacht Dialects put together to avoid the confusion of Various Dialects , weather it was right or wrong to do that dosent really matter to me anymore , as i wasnt there and i cannot change the past , i can only choose to accept it or not , and i choose to accept it.

quote:

yeah i guess you could say it was made up , but what was it made up of ? not thin air , it was the gatherings of the various Dialects ,

Plastic is made up of petrol, and plastic isn't petrol anymore... Bread is made up of flour, and bread isn't flour anymore...

quote:

its still %100 Irish that almost any Irish speaker would understand ,

Actually in standard Irish there are many words that most Gaeltacht speakers don't understand or don't use. And as I said several times, there are grammatical forms and rules that are historical ones, and that don't exist anywhere more.

quote:

i percieve Artifical to mean made from Nothing or something Man made or something New , when Really CO is just a mixture of Gaeltacht Dialects put together

a new man-made mixture :-)

quote:

to avoid the confusion of Various Dialects

what kind of confusion are you talking about?

quote:

as i wasnt there and i cannot change the past , i can only choose to accept it or not , and i choose to accept it.

You can't change the past but you may choose to use a Gaeltacht dialect rather than a made-up one. You know my own choice, anyway.

A dhaoine uaisle,
tá an síor díospóireacht seo a dul thart i gciorcal (arís!)

Tá rudaí níos spéisiúla le plé, agus níos mó tairbhe le baint astu!

Tá sé leadránach ó bheith ag plé fán rud céarna i dtólamh lol

i agree Aonghus and it was boring , but when it got silly with the bread and flour stuff i just switched off , lol , so yeah its over

What I wrote is not silly, you just don't agree with it. Be more tolerant with those who don't think like you, please, instead of saying they write silly things.

im sorry you are so easily offended Lughaidh , but silly here isnt a word used here to offend people , its just how i see your comparisons from Petrol and bread to discussing the comparison between CO and Gaeltacht , i just thought it is taking the sensible road we were already on into the realms of confusion ,

"silly

• adjective (sillier, silliest) 1 lacking in common sense or judgement; foolish. 2 trivial or frivolous. 3 Cricket denoting fielding positions very close to the batsman: silly mid-on."

From : http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/silly?view=uk

ok i will go for number two , but in a throw away remark , you need to chill out Lughaidh ,

bread
• noun 1 food made of flour, water, and yeast mixed together and baked. 2 informal money.



petrol
• noun Brit. 1 refined petroleum used as fuel in motor vehicles. 2 (also petrol blue) a shade of intense greenish or greyish blue.

Not much connection to the ole Gaeilge there , or am i being Frivolous/Trivial

This really is getting silly

Aye...

And yet still not as silly as cricket terminology! Seriously, "silly mid-on"?

Get used to cricket terminology! It's the coming game! With Ireland's success in the current 20/20 World Cup and in the World Cup proper in 2007, I confidently predict cricket will oust GAA football/hurling, "soccer" and rugby as Ireland's premier sport!

Sa chás san cad é an Ghaelainn ar "silly mid-on"? Meánbhealach na guaise is ainm do "silly mid-off" de réir Focail.ie.

Cad é fá "Howzat!", "lbw" srl.?!

Scriosta. "Duplication" a bhí ann.

(Message edited by Hugo on June 08, 2009)

[rant]

My passive-agressive nature has delayed me from going into this, but now I feel the time has come...

[/rant]

No, I'm not going into it.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on June 08, 2009)

Tóg go bog é, a Fhinn, níl ann ach cruicéad!

All right.

IMHHO standards, no matter what language, are mostly implemented with the best interest of the language in mind. Think of the standard as a glue that holds the language together as one language with its dialects. If there are no agreed reference rules for spelling and grammar...
- The language is hard to write for the general public to understand
- The language is hard to teach (at least institutionally)
- Dialects will drift apart from each other at a quicker rate

Think about what we Finns would be facing if the standard was kicked and all the dialectal areas only taught their local dialect at schools. There already are persons who have great trouble understanding other dialects. It wouldn't take too many generations before we would have fivesome minor Finnic languages drifting apart, initially carrying common elements although sounding very different, and eventually becoming mutually unintelligible. The Finnish population isn't growing fast enough to provide substrate for all of the new languages for long. We would no doubt go through new state divisions at some point.

Yeah, there would probably be city-states and their periferiums, speaking different Finnic languages of Turku, Rauma, Tampere, Ostrobothnian, Savo, and Karelian, and getting into fights because the Savo speaking guy said to the Tampere speaking girl [ootpas sie haaskan näköönen naeenen!]*... and silly things like that.

A widely learned, rather well standardised language** (guess what? any ideas?) would first become the Lingua Franca between Finns, then at some time it would become an official or semi-official language of Finland, because everybody born after the wars speaks or at least understands it fairly well. Some time after, many people would be likely to stop maintaining their Finnic language as it is a useless burden.

Also at that point, foreign people moving to Finland would need to learn one Finnic language, and if they relocated, they would need to start almost over. Or, they would settle for that Lingua Franca.

Back to Irish. If the standard was kicked, which dialect would be the official school language taught to new learners? What would happen to the others? The worst case would be three new Gaelic languages, mutually unintelligible, and each too small a group to survive.

Ok, these are my future visions, in case standards were kicked, but I may be terribly wrong. Everyone is free (if not encouraged) to disagree.

Oh, and remember humor. The sense of humor pushes you through harsh situations caused by people with no sense of humor.

*But aren't you a nice looking lady!
The trick is that in the Savo dialect the spelling hauska (funny, neat, nice) is pronounced like haaska which pronunciation means, among other obnoxious things, rotting carcass in the standard as well as most other dialects.

**Hint: We start learning the language four years before Swedish.
-------------------------------
Ceart go leor. Tá scríofa agam. B)

PS. I would have gladly written this in Irish but I would be still writing it next week and asking for corrections.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on June 08, 2009)

Why doesn't someone just read "the cairt" "the chart" I gave the link to and read it slowly in Muenster or in Standard Irish. I'd love to hear it as well. Teifheach or someone else (Aonghus since you grew up speaking it), could let us hear that as well.

I'll do it in Spanish if that'll prompt someone,
FaberM

i could do it sure , but what exactly do you want said , just the Verbs ?

A Fhinn, it's fun to speculate about such matters, but it's just that--speculation. I've yet to see hard evidence that a standard spelling has much effect on convergence or divergence of dialects. You would agree, wouldn't you, that English has a fairly strict, widely-accepted, and long-standing standard spelling, wouldn't you? Yet can you honestly say that, for instance, New Zealand English and London English (to pick two significant dialects) sound more similar to each other than they did a century ago?

In the USA, we have three major vowel shifts in progress: Northern Cities, Southern, and Southern Californian. And the vowels in these dialects are all shifting in different directions. How is a common spelling for pet preventing people on the Great Lakes from centralising this to [pʰɐt] while Southerners diphthongise it to [pʰɛjət] and Californians lower it to [pʰæt]? As far as I can tell, it's not, which is why I don't find your doomsday scenario (for Irish or for Finnish) very plausible.

Curiousfinn, we are a bit off-topic but I'll answer you anyway.
The difference between Finnish and Irish, is that Irish is a minority language.
If you don't teach the Finnish dialects, it doesn't mean they'll disappear and anyway native Finnish won't disappear.

Now if you never teach the Irish dialects but only Standard Irish, the native speakers will believe their own dialect is bad Irish and they may stop speaking it with their children (looks like that happens in the Gaeltacht sometimes). And then in one generation there won't be any native speaker left, there'll be only learners who speak Standard Irish. All the richness of idiom and vocabulary (and pronunciation and everything) will be lost, and Irish will be in the same situation as Cornish.

Now, what may be done in Ireland, is teaching the local dialect in the Gaeltacht schools, and teach the pupils too what are the main differences between the dialects. It's easy, especially for natives.
I think that the dialect of the closest Gaeltacht should be taught in the Galltacht, for example, teaching Muskerry Irish in Cork, some Donegal dialect in Belfast (even though Ráth Cairn is closer but it's better to teach an Ulster dialect in the 6 counties), etc.
And teaching the main features of the other dialects too, so that people understand each other, whatever dialect they speak.

If the dialects are never taught, never spoken about, and if native speakers have no support in transmitting their language to their children, I'm afraid Irish may die as a natural language in a couple of decades.

I admit it was intentionally overshot a wee bit.

I never meant to say (or write, for that matter) that dialects shouldn't be taught at school. While an agreed standard can facilitate teaching, it must not be taken as the only way to do things right, as opposed to other ways being wrong. Of course things don't always work out the way they were intended, expected, or predicted.

I believe that once I have a good grip of the standard Irish, it shouldn't prove too hard to learn the nuances of the dialects. The problem is that currently I can't really tell what words are which dialect, and plenty of the available material seems to be standard anyway. Can't help that much, but got to work with what I get. And you should know, Lughaidh, I downloaded the verb table and I'm waiting for a suitable situation to listen to it.

Agus anois, táim ag dul a...

quote:

Why doesn't someone just read "the cairt" "the chart" I gave the link to and read it slowly in Muenster or in Standard Irish. I'd love to hear it as well. Teifheach or someone else (Aonghus since you grew up speaking it), could let us hear that as well.

It's on my list of things to do. However, I'm not going to be as quick at it as Lughaidh - I have to do it at home, late at night, when the kids are in bed. And to produce reasonably clear MP3 will take some time, based on my previous experience - my kit is not great.

I crave your patience.

Lughaidh: Can you please read the "Very irregulars" off of the chart in Uladh? They were not on your first recording? If you could just say something like this it would help as I listen on my Ipod.

Come Tar Tháinig Tagann Tiocfaidh (ag) teacht tagtha
Give/Bring Tabhair Thug Tugann Tabharfaidh (ag) tabhairt tugtha
so on and so forth.

Teifeach: You could lay them down in Muenster or Standard. Just read one side of the sheet and then the other. i am meaning just state the verb in english then give 6 columns on the chart. It is nice to hear the "ag" before the noun verb as I suppose that's how it is usually heard.

Guys you cannot begin to understand how incredibly helpful this is. My 80 year old father came over last weekend and after listening to Lughaidh he said, "I've wondered what these words have sounded like my whole life". My dad commented that he's only heard these sounds in Hebrew and he's convinced Lughaidh is a jewish celt who found his way into France. We looked you up on the web and saw your photo!

Anyway, maybe y'all understand. Perhaps we could hear Brendan as well and hear an Aussie Irish Dialect. I worked with a bunch of Aussies in Chile and I was astonished at how "flat" they pronounced their vowels(prounounce flat as "flet". They were a great group to work with in the gold and copper mines. Had some great times, beer, barbees, etc. They even invited me to the West coast of Oz where I swam with the Whale Sharks on my 40th birthday.

Later,
FaberM

Lughaidh:


My apologies. I had not seen the "irregular verbs" that you already recorded. It got lost in this endless thread on Finnish sub languages or something. Anyway, they do sound miles from what I had imagined.

Aonghus, we will certainly remain patient to hear them in your manner of speaking.

Kindest Regards to all,
Faber M

quote:

I was astonished at how "flat" they pronounced their vowels(prounounce flat as "flet". They were a great group to work with in the gold and copper mines. Had some great times, beer, barbees, etc. They even invited me to the West coast of Oz where I swam with the Whale Sharks on my 40th birthday.

"flet"? Are you sure they weren't Kiwis masquerading as Ozzies?

I am afraid you will be disappointed with my accent - I don't have an Australian accent even in English. In fact, my accent shifts depending on whom I am talking with at the time, sometimes even the average of the group, so that when I was talking to a mixed group of Germans and Ozzies I was told I sounded South African!

i have already redcorded some thgs on here , but i hope to get a decent mic sometime today , and i will have a go at the irregular verbs for you , im from Ulster , but i guess most of mu pronounchiations will be standard , its a kinda mixture i have from having different teachers and speaking to people from Gaoth Dobhair snd Gleann Cholm Cille , but im happy with it lol


http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/viewtopic.87563.html

A Fhabeir, I could attempt the Muenster pronunciations, but they'd be kind of cheesy.

Cheesy is okay. Is that swiss or provolone?

http://www.box.net/shared/qkk3850iqb

i thought i posted these earlier , aw well here they are now , it is kinda weird just saying verbs like this , i hope you find them ok as well as the Quality , it may be better to read them in sentences , more Natural like . Let me know what youse think.

Maith an fear, a Theifigh

Go raibh maith agat
i would like to do more like these ( as in some ways they seem more useful to learners than constant translations , which i agree are important and also Very Useful), but maybe less formal , Maybe more Natural , like in sentences , in a kinda prepared short story to show the use of these Verbs , We''ll see.

Teifeach:

When I learned Spanish I devised a system much like you're speaking of (Hebrew was a different system). I will try to put the idea down on an email in the next 48 hours or so. My key to learning is to set up my own "dictionary" that divides everything into 7 categories of speech. These create building blocks that allow the speaking of the language to grow exponentially. I'm still at my law office and I have to take my horse over to the Kerryman I spoke of this evening, but I'll try to get the system communicated. Then you can give me the comments.

Go raibh maith agat agus slan go foill,
Faber MacMhaolain

Fadhb ar bith/No problem , it cant hurt , we are always looking for new ways to get the Language across to Learners.
Go raibh maith agat

Teifeach agus Lughaidh:

Dad just left from our weekly lesson. It was wonderful having the various pronunciations. Teifeach, would you mind putting down a recording of the other verbs on the chart in your dialect? We only heard you record the 11 irregulars.

We concentrated tonight on hammering all of the imperatives and putting them into sentences with each other. We will attempt all the cases on the chart for next week. He asked that I thank you both profusely for what you've done for us. It has provided a quantum leap.

Ceist na amadán: Lughaidh, when you recorded, you voiced two forms under the future tense. What is the second verb form you voiced. Also, Breandán told me when I started that pronunciation was pretty straight forward in Irish. Breandán, what were you thinking? Listen to Lughaidh's pronunciation of the verb "To sing" "Can", and tell me where "Chawl", "Shawl", "Chawlan", etc. come from. Pretty weird stuff.

Go raibh mile maith agaibh,
Faber MacMhoalain

A Fhabeir, ceol is ea an briathar atá i gceist. Is do "chant" a fhreagraíonn an briathar can. Ná lig do "chara bréige" thú a chur ar míthreoir.

(Message edited by Domhnaillín_Breac_na_dTruslóg on June 10, 2009)

Ní thuigim focal díot. (I don't understand your word).

I understand something like:

"Faber, music is thus the verb is in question. It is his "chant" answering the verb "can". Don't leave your "false friend" to misguidance/confusion/feebleness."

Your Irish is way too advanced for me at this stage. Perhaps you can send the message sa Bearla no Spanisch.

Tá me ag foghlaim go foíl,
Faber

i am glad they were of use to youse , i will do the regulars when i have the time , Busy today , and attending a wedding amárach , b'fhéidir Dé Sathairn, sounds like youse are doing a great job , and maybe enjoying the process , and learning regularly together will help speed the process ,

Ádh mór oraibh a chairde

Teifeach

quote:

Ceist na amadán: Lughaidh, when you recorded, you voiced two forms under the future tense. What is the second verb form you voiced.

Are you talking about regular or irregular verbs.
I already said that for the forms that end in -(a)idh or -(a)igh, that ending is pronounced -uh before mé, tú, sé, sí, muid, sibh, siad... and -ee before the other subjects. Is it that you're talking about?

quote:

Also, Breandán told me when I started that pronunciation was pretty straight forward in Irish. Breandán, what were you thinking?

Maybe he wanted to say that the pronunciation is quite easy to guess once you've learnt the spelling and pronunciation rules...

quote:

Listen to Lughaidh's pronunciation of the verb "To sing" "Can", and tell me where "Chawl", "Shawl", "Chawlan", etc. come from. Pretty weird stuff.

Have a look at my message sent on June 4th, you'll see that the Ulster verb is "ceol", that's why it doesn't look nor sound like "can"... By the way the pronunciation of these forms aren't chawl, shawl etc, but rather kyawl, past hyawl, present kwalunn etc (of course writing "English-like" gets you far from the real sounds).

A Fhabeir, ceol is ea an briathar atá i gceist.

"Faber, it is ceol that is the verb in question."


Is do "chant" a fhreagraíonn an briathar can.

"'Chant' is the verb that can corresponds to." (freagair do = "correspond to") That is, although can is sometimes translated as "sing", it more closely corresponds to "chant", e.g. na sailm a chanadh "chanting the psalms". IME, abair is much more common in the meaning "sing", e.g. Ní thig liom amhrán a rá! "I can't sing" (lit. "speak a song").


Ná lig do "chara bréige" thú a chur ar míthreoir.

"Don't be mislead by a 'false friend'." Can immediately recalls Spanish cantar, but as explained above the meaning isn't quite the same.

Teifeach and Lughaidh, Well done both of you for doing soundfiles.

Lughaidh- I agree totally with what you said earlier about teaching dialect in the Gaeltacht.

"Can" may have come from the word chant originally. But that doesn't mean it still has the same meaning in Irish.
I believe "can" is what is said in Ulster Irish. In Connamara we say "cas".


Finn- I think languages will evolve different from now on in the developed world anyhow (rainforest tribes and the like excluded) With the media, - TV internet etc - dialect speakers will know each others dialects a lot better than previously. Raidió na Gaeltachta has made a huge difference in this regard. Before RnaG a Connamara person would rarely get the chance to meet a Donegal person.

Lughaidh- I agree totally with what you said earlier about teaching dialect in the Gaeltacht.

Count me in as well. The ideal thing is to secure a home-base in the nearest natural (i.e. living) dialect and then range out to the other dialects (and the CO, of course - as long as the dragons don't turn up beforehand). The logistics side could be the problem though.

With the media, - TV internet etc - dialect speakers will know each others dialects a lot better than previously. Raidió na Gaeltachta has made a huge difference in this regard.

It certainly will, and it already has. What people forget is that it was not unusual at all before the TV era - not that long ago - for English-speakers from different regions and countries to have (major) problems understanding each other.

People don't converse as much as they used to; there's more text contact than ever before to the detriment of speech contact. I wonder what effect that will have on the development of language, generally speaking. I remember an otologist (oiteolaí, dochtúir na gcluas) once telling me that one of the less well-known problems associated with hearing loss is that the brain loses the ability to make sense of the sounds so that when people eventually get hearing aids they still have problems comprehending what they hear. But, never mind, we will certainly recognize the tap-tap sound of a keyboard...

quote:

Count me in as well. The ideal thing is to secure a home-base in the nearest natural (i.e. living) dialect and then range out to the other dialects (and the CO, of course - as long as the dragons don't turn up beforehand). The logistics side could be the problem though.

If you're talking about the teaching books, I think it would be possible to adapt any text in any dialect and making photocopies etc. I teach Breton and I've adapted a learning book into the dialect I wanted to teach, I print the lessons I've translated and give photocopies to my students. It doesn't take much time.

Scríobh Brídmór:

Finn- I think languages will evolve different from now on in the developed world anyhow (rainforest tribes and the like excluded) With the media, - TV internet etc - dialect speakers will know each others dialects a lot better than previously.

Yes, everything affects everything, so to say. And globalisation also brings languages together over great distances - no doubt they will mutually affect each other, slowly but surely.

I'm definitely not against teaching and keeping dialects - on the contrary. But from the point of view of a foreign learner, IMO a standard is good to have. It doesn't have to be strict.

But I'll try not to add any more OT length to this thread. I just hope we're still OK to discuss other stuff in the future.

Hi a Lughaidh!
I've just been reading this very long thread and I won't add my two cents to the big discussion up there. That's not my point now.
My question is about your way of pronouncing Tá. I've been listening to your reading all these verbs and I thank you for the time you spared doing that for us .
But I was astonished to hear your way of pronouncing Tà, very flat and short . I've always heard Tà pronounced in a deep tone with a long vowel (nearly Tawh) , just like in "tomato" (english and not american way of pronouncing!) or "laugh" etc..
En français un peu comme l'ancienne façon (qu'on trouve encore dans les campagnes ou dans certaines régions) de prononcer gâteau, âne, pâtes avec cet accent circonflexe . (In french, a wee bit like this ancient way of pronouncing the "â" in some words such as gâteaux/cakes, âne/donkey , pâtes/pastas); "pâtes" is regularly pronounced "pawt" in my region .
Or is it my computer ? or my ears?
Can you give me your opinion ?
Peux-tu me dire ce que tu en penses?
Jehan.

Á in Donegal Irish is always prononced like the ''e'' in jet.

Tá = taa

Á in Donegal Irish is always pronounced like the ''e'' in jet.

"Jet"? Cé ann acu desna teangachaibh? In my English, jet has [ɛ] whereas I perceive Donegal á as [æ:].

quote:

My question is about your way of pronouncing Tá. I've been listening to your reading all these verbs and I thank you for the time you spared doing that for us .
But I was astonished to hear your way of pronouncing Tà, very flat and short . I've always heard Tà pronounced in a deep tone with a long vowel (nearly Tawh) , just like in "tomato" (english and not american way of pronouncing!) or "laugh" etc..

That's just because you've never heard people from Northwestern Donegal ;-)
As Trigger said, people have most á's like the a sound in "bad" or even sometimes like "eh".
That's not in whole Ulster, but rather in Gweedore, Tory, Cloghaneely.

quote:

En français un peu comme l'ancienne façon (qu'on trouve encore dans les campagnes ou dans certaines régions) de prononcer gâteau, âne, pâtes avec cet accent circonflexe .

C'est pas l'ancienne façon, c'est une des prononciations standard (cf les dictionnaires), je prononce comme ça. Il y a juste certaines régions (sud de la France et Ile de France) où on prononce tout comme [a], ce qui peut mener à des quiproquos parfois (patte/pâte). Apparemment la prononciation [a] semble s'étendre, sans doute à cause de l'influence de la télé.

quote:

Or is it my computer ? or my ears?
Can you give me your opinion ?
Peux-tu me dire ce que tu en penses?

The á as pronounced in Munster and Connachta is further back in the mouth and closer than the French â as I pronounce it.

A Fhabeir, ceol is ea an briathar atá i gceist.

"Faber, it is ceol that is the verb in question."


Is the copula correctly used here? The "fear is ea é" construction (=is fear é) is for the copula of classification (I am A man).

The copula of identity: is é fear é

Logically the Irish sentence above says "the verb in question is a ceol"

Jehan-
The "tá" you are familiar with is more like Connamara sound. We are good at deep vowels.
Donegal Irish is higher pitched, and melodic.

quote:

Is the copula correctly used here? The "fear is ea é" construction (=is fear é) is for the copula of classification (I am A man).

Fear is ea é = Is fear é
The first sentence is more Munster.

quote:

The copula of identity: is é fear é

I think there may be "an" missing there:

Is fear é = he's a man
Is é an fear é = He's the man.

hope this is what you asked for Fab,http://www.box.net/shared/6lnb9yn1o0

Whoa dhude!

Is maith sin! Go raibh maith agat a Theifeach. Is tú an fear tú! Is iontach deas cúpla canúintaí faigh.

Fós, GRMA,
Faber Macmhaolain