Hey folks,

My Irish teacher, a native speaker from An Spideal, Co. na Gallaimh, recently said this to me in English when she'd forgotten my name. Since I know that many idioms in Irish English (and Newfoundland English, incidentally) are "Gaelicisms", such as "I'm at working now" coming from "Tá me ag obair anois", I was wondering what, if any, Gaelic idiom "I'm after forgetting.." came from?

Thanks,
Ryan

That would be tar éis rud a dhéanamh in Connacht. You may also see/hear thar éis, tréis, or thréis for tar éis. (See éis in Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla (1977), Ó Dónaill)

Ó Siadhail has the Cois Fhairrge pronunciation of thar éis as /he:s'/ in Lesson 21 of Learning Irish, but of course that is non-standard.

So, "I'm after forgetting your name" would be Tá mé tar éis dearmad a dhéanamh ar d'ainm. I am not sure if you can shorten it further to Tá mé tar éis d'ainm a dhearmad or not.

In other dialects (and the standard?) they may use i ndiaidh rud a dhéanamh instead, but I am not sure which ones or where. I hope others will supply the other pieces to the puzzle.

A native speaker from Connemara may be able to confirm or deny the above (and no doubt all sorts of others will stomp all over it, too... :-P )

tar éis, i ndiadh = after
Tá mé tar éis déanamh dearmaid ar d'ainm = I am after forgetting your name (lit. "Am I after making of forgetting on your name").
i.e. I've forgotten your name just now.

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on May 26, 2009)

I would rather say

Tá mé i ndiaidh dearmad a dhéanamh ar d'ainm.

Thanks, a Lughaidh.

So, (at least) Ulster has:

Tá mé i ndiaidh dearmad a dhéanamh ar d'ainm.

Connacht has:

Tá mé tar éis dearmad a dhéanamh ar d'ainm.

Since both tar éis rud a dhéanamh and i ndiaidh rud a dhéanamh are in Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla (1977), Ó Dónaill, it may be that they are both acceptable in the standard and more a question of personal choice but a caighdeáner may wish to correct that.

Is there a preference in Munster? (a Dhomhnaillín?)


Also, thinking about the difference between the two possibilities I had listed above, I was wondering if perhaps the following might apply:

Tá mé tar éis dearmad a dhéanamh ar d'ainm. "I have forgotten your name" (was it Riain? or Briain?)

Tá mé tar éis d'ainm a dhearmad "I have forgotten your name" (I left your name off the list by mistake.)

Is that a possibility, or am I off the mark.

Constructive comments welcome, as always.

Is there a preference in Munster? (a Dhomhnaillín?)

Definitely tar éis.

Always tar eis here in Munster,at least according to my kids
But i ndiaidh means 'after' anyhow,or 'following' so it comes to the same in the end.

According to Ó Sé, i ndiaidh exists in Corca Dhuibhne but with a different meaning.

Tar éis is the "general" word to say "after", and it is pronounced mainly tréis, téis, théis agus tar éis.

I would use "tar éis" for time and "i ndiadh" for sequence, but not in any hard and fast way.

I use i ndiaidh , but i thought that they were both more or less interchangable , depending on where you are from. i know this isnt Always the case.

quote:

I would use "tar éis" for time and "i ndiadh" for sequence, but not in any hard and fast way.

Yes, a Aonghuis, I think I can relate to that. I would say:

Bhí sé ag rith i mo dhiaidh. "He was running after me/behind me."

rather than

Bhí sé ag rith tar m'éis.

However, I am not sure whether the latter can be ruled out completely. Has anyone seen a similar usage? (Ó Dónaill has tar m'éis "after me, after my time", which could be either.)

I have seen both used for telling the time in different texts:

Ocht nóiméad tar éis a hocht
Ocht nóiméad i ndiaidh a hocht

I guess, also counting Macdara and Teifeach's comments, tar éis and i ndiaidh/ are largely interchangeable in the standard with a preference for tar/thar éis in Connacht and Munster and i ndiaidh/i ndéidh in Ulster.

The main object was to show Riain that there were two possible sources for the "after doing" construction. As his teacher is from an Spidéal, most likely tar éis in this case. ;-)

quote:

According to Ó Sé, i ndiaidh exists in Corca Dhuibhne but with a different meaning.

Tar éis is the "general" word to say "after", and it is pronounced mainly tréis, téis, théis agus tar éis.

Just for clarification, a Lughaidh, were you still referring to Corca Dhuibhne when you said "Tar éis is the "general" word"? or did you mean in Irish in general?

And what was the special meaning?

I have heard "in éis" in "dúnadh an dorais in éis na foghla" (closing the door after the robbery).

quote:

Just for clarification, a Lughaidh, were you still referring to Corca Dhuibhne when you said "Tar éis is the "general" word"? or did you mean in Irish in general?

I was refering to Corca Dhuibhne.

quote:

And what was the special meaning?

These are some of the examples that are in Ó Sé's book :

go mbíodh sé i ndiaidh ban
ainmíodh iad i ndiaidh an dochtúra
tairrigíodh i ndiaidh an leoraí é

It looks like "tar éis" is used mainly to refer to time, and "i ndiaidh" mainly to refer to a place or in some idioms and set phrases.

And it looks like "tar éis" is hardly used (if ever) in Ulster.

Thanks, a Lughaidh. That would seem to fit well with Aonghus' comment that he would use "tar éis" for time and "i ndiadh" for sequence, too, wouldn't it? :-)

maybe we get lazy and use the most handy one we know for all , right or wrong
i ndiaidh a sé a chlog
i ndiaidh an rang

Ón bhfoclóir beag:

d'éis ((in abairt) i ndiaidh (tar éis a naoi, tar éis imeacht dó); cé, bíodh, go (tar éis gur crosadh air é).
tar éis ((in abairt) i ndiaidh (tar éis a naoi, tar éis imeacht dó); cé, bíodh, go (tar éis gur crosadh air é).

i ndiaidh ((in abairt) taobh thiar de (ag siúl i mo dhiaidh); tar éis (i ndiaidh a sé a chlog); ar thóir (tá sé i ndiaidh an airgid orm)).
diaidh ar ndiaidh (de réir a chéile).

So it would appear that the CO allows overlapping meanings, but roughly the division I suggested.

quote:

I have heard "in éis" in "dúnadh an dorais in éis na foghla" (closing the door after the robbery).

Ó Dónaill has d'éis and tar éis as main entries under éis, and also lists ar éis, dar éis, thar éis, and in éis as variants.

Which do you yourself use for telling the time, a Thaidhgín? tar éis? or i ndiaidh? (or some other expression?) How would you say "2:10 (ten past two)", for instance?

It's hard to say what was the most correct in what context anyway.

I ndiaidh derives from Old Irish i n-dead/i d-diad = after (lit. "in the end of")
Tar éis derives from tar és(s)i = for, in place of

There is another form, i ndeabhaidh (used in Corca Dhuibhne for example), that looks to derive from i n-degaid/ i n-digaid which means "after", apparently in a "place" meaning, eg. i n-degaid n-Ísu = after Jesus.

d'éis derives from do éis/di éis and means (to remain on) after (someone).
Éis meant "track" in Old Irish.

But as always, the words have changed meaning through time.


And "i ndiaidh" and "i ndéidh" are a bit different too, maybe diaidh was accusative and déidh dative or something like that, I mean they are not two different pronunciations for the same word. In Scottish Gaelic as in Ulster, people say (respectively) an-dèidh and i ndéidh : /əN'e:/. I guess Ulster people would pronounce */əN'iəj/ if they used "i ndiaidh". Actually I write "i ndiaidh" so that learners recognize it but I should use "i ndéidh" when I'm writing :-)

quote:

It's hard to say what was the most correct in what context anyway.

Precisely. As every relativist knows, "context is everything." I am not trying to establish "correct" or "incorrect" only what is used where and how frequently.

And I love to delve into derivations, too. Not everyone likes them, but I find they help to tie it all together.