Why was the "Native Speaker" thread closed?



I want to quickly answer Lughaidh's response to my post:

I have never claimed the definition of the term "native speaker" for myself.
I have used it in situations (like this forum) where my level of Irish is already known, for the reasons described in my post.

Lying? - No.



As someone with training in linguistics you must be well aware that one of the forces of change in any language overf time is the use of words in contexts they originally didn't apply to where existing terms are not felt to be expressive enough by a speaker or felt to be inadequate at conveying the level of emotion the speaker is trying to communicate e.g. "It was an awfully good book.
I don't claim that this is happening with "native speaker" and it will inevitably take on a new meaning in Hiberno-English or English in general, simply that it's a similar force at work.

A chara,

it was closed because there comes a time when we have to agree to disagree.

We have reached that point.

Caoimhín

The term "native language" only has the meaning "genuine language of my native country" for *some* Irish citizens. Since many people on this forum are not Irish citizens (and some of them are and even don't understand the term with your meaning), I think yous should be careful with it and use an expression that is understood with the same meaning for all English speakers.

Fair enough. I was just trying to explain why I, and others, have used it - I wasn't trying to claim it was correct.

Much ado about nothing :)

true dat

teanga dúchais = language of heritage/patrimony/home/native place/orign
"dúchas" and "native" are not very congruent.
Perhaps the Irish term is the reason for the confusion about the English term "native language"?

Lars

Ní hea, ach polaitíocht agus mothúcháin.

Agus an gnáth bhearna nuair atá duine amháin ag úsáid téarmaí go righin, eolaíoch, agus duine eile go scaoilte.

Bun beagnach gach raic ar an idirlíon ná difríochtaí maidir le séimeantaic.

well it being mainly used by irish speakers - hiberno english speakers by birth mostly ye id say thats very accurate

i still say its my native language, with my level of irish (slowly gaining actual profiency in grammar) i dont see how people who grew up with the language would have a problem with it

and people who dont speak irish or are outside of ireland - a simple question of do you live in the gaeltacht (which would also not garuntee i was a native speaker by birth) or have i spoke irish all my life (again i have spoke it since i was four, again ambigious) or you could ask did i speak irish from birth as my main language (only satisfactry way of asking - but long way of asking)

Lughaidh? Who gave you the right to tell people what they should and shouldnt write? When in Ireland, it is an extremely common use of the word!

If you have the freedom of not conforming to the Caighdeán of Gaeilge why should the rest of us have to follow an alien English designated in books! I hate getting involved in these pointless discussions, but I'd love to get a response to this.

Mar a dúras cheanna.

"Where I live, nearly everyone refers to Irish (well other than those that despise it) as their "native" language. Many of them barely have the "cúpla focail".

Maybe you would describe the use of "native" in the South of Ireland as a colloquial term. And like Lughaidh has stated on numerous occasions about his written Gaeilge, there is no law in not using a standardized form of a language or a word in an informal context."

Agus mura n-aontaítear le sin?
Ní lia duine ná thuairim!

(Message edited by ardri on May 25, 2009)

i dont see lughaidh agreeing with this but again that is another well put point

Bíonn an clár plé seo thuas seal agus thíos seal ceart go leor agus tá díospóireachtaí de chuile chineál slánchéille, mar déarfá, le feiceál anseo, ach is í seo an díospóireacht is stupid dhá raibh ann ariamh. Chomh stupid agus nach bhfuil tada inti a bheadh leath chomh greannmhar leis an leibideacht de ghnáth-dhíospóireacht nach fiú faic. Rud eile, ní fhaca mé an oiread sin námhadais idir an lucht pléite anseo ariamh, agus an oiread sin daoine nach n-oibríonn ar mhaithe leis an staidéar nó deá-chaint ba deas a léamh. Mo náire muide!

quote:

Lughaidh? Who gave you the right to tell people what they should and shouldnt write?

I have the right to give advice to people just as anybody has that right (in democracy at least).

quote:

When in Ireland, it is an extremely common use of the word!

Maybe, however there are some Irish people in this forum who said they never heard that word used in that way, which means that not all Irish people use that word in that way.

quote:

If you have the freedom of not conforming to the Caighdeán of Gaeilge why should the rest of us have to follow an alien English designated in books! I hate getting involved in these pointless discussions, but I'd love to get a response to this.

It was already said in this forum what "native language" meant for all English speakers of the world except some (or many) people in Ireland. Do you mean that every English speaker in the world speaks an "alien English designated in books" outside Ireland? How nice.

quote:

"Where I live, nearly everyone refers to Irish (well other than those that despise it) as their "native" language. Many of them barely have the "cúpla focail".

Maybe you would describe the use of "native" in the South of Ireland as a colloquial term. And like Lughaidh has stated on numerous occasions about his written Gaeilge, there is no law in not using a standardized form of a language or a word in an informal context."

But in case there's a risk of being misunderstood by many visitors on the meaning of words, it's better to use the most common meaning. Once again, not all the visitors of this forum are Irish citizens.

I mean, if you say to an American guy "I attend to evening classes to learn my native language. I'm just a beginner now", he may think you're telling nonsense... to him, you don't need to take classes to learn your native language since you speak it since your early childhood. That's what it means outside Ireland (and probably to many Irish people too).


By the way, I'm quite fed up now writing the same things again and again.

Further discussion on this topic will be deleted.

Clear to all?

Caoimhín