quote:

I found the language to be an enjoyable challenge, and wanted to become fluent in my native language.

I guess you mean "in the national language of my country"... if it were your native language (which means your first language or mothertongue) you'd be fluent in it from childhood. Many Irish people use the word "my native language" when they mean "national language of my country" but these are 2 different things.

A Sheáin, a chara, caithfidh tú do chuid Bearla a chur i gceart, dar le Lughaidh. Agus 'sé do theanga dúchais!

(Message edited by An_chilleasrach on May 20, 2009)

(Message edited by An_chilleasrach on May 20, 2009)

A language can't be your native tongue if you haven't had it since day one.

Agreed. And put so poetically!

It seemed like an unnecessary dig though. Everybody knew what Seán meant - it was entirely obvious from the context. "I guess you mean..." is bordering on the condescending.

"Our Native Tongue" has entered the public vocabulary. It may be technically incorrect but nobody really cares. The fact that in some cases it betrays a sentimental attachment not supported by any commitment to the protection or development of the language is almost irrelevant.

Cén lá é "Day One", a Thrigger?

The whole topic of "native" language is a fraught one. Even linguists disagree as to what constitutes a "native speaker" in scientific terms. Some would consider me one (bilingual from onset of speech, but my parents are not native speakers, although my father spoke Irish before English, not brought up in a Gaeltacht). Others wouldn't.

And then there is the cultural/political rhetoric in Ireland which annoys Lughaidh so much that he is provoked into comments like the above.

I symphathise with him, but I don't fully agree with a too narrow definition.

That there is a sliding scale of ability, even among those from the Gaeltacht, is another complication.

Ach sin scéal eile.

For the purposes of the Henry's project, I think a "here be dragons" sign around the topic is useful!

(Message edited by aonghus on May 20, 2009)

Maith thú, a Chilleasraigh. I would guess that if you ask 100 Irish people what is "our native tongue", the vast majority would say Gaeilge (okay, they might say Irish, and okay I've no scientific peer-reviewed survey to support my guess)

Henry asked some questions; people gave their answers. Sin é

irish is my native language - english is the language i spoke first

quote:

Some would consider me one (bilingual from onset of speech, but my parents are not native speakers, although my father spoke Irish before English, not brought up in a Gaeltacht). Others wouldn't.

You are a native speaker of a language if you had it since birth, even if you still got the language off other learners its still your native language.

I consider you a native speaker.

Yes Trigger, but others wouldn't.
It depends on the reason for the categorisation.

Personally now I would say "Tógadh le gaeilge mé" seachas "Is cainteoir ó dhúchais mé".

I think a "here be dragons" sign around the topic is useful!

(Agus mé ag tagairt don snáithe thall ónar eascair an snáithe abhus.)

Ach ábhar iontais agus dóchais é araon tar éis an tsaoil gur thóg sé seachtain beagnach go dtí gur éirigh an racán!!


Do shíl mise go mbeadh na dragain níos sciobtha ar an bhfód.


Ach ba threise dúthracht na fírinne ná meon na síochána i ndeireadh na dála.

Here's an example of self-control: I'm not going to comment on this one. Féin-smacht, a chairde.

quote:

Everybody knew what Seán meant - it was entirely obvious from the context. "I guess you mean..." is bordering on the condescending.

It wasn't condescending to me, sorry if it sounded like that.
Looks like many people use the expression "native language" without knowing what it really means. That may happen but it may lead to important misunderstandings...


Native speaker :

• (noun) a person who has spoken the language in question from earliest childhood.

(source : http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/nativespeaker?view=uk)


See :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_language

They don't say, as far as I saw, that your native language is the official language of your country even if you don't speak it, or if you aren't fluent in it.
To me, saying that your native language is not your mothertongue is just like saying a table is not called "table", but "chair"...

quote:

"Our Native Tongue" has entered the public vocabulary. It may be technically incorrect but nobody really cares.

I guess that the people who want to know the truth would care...

An fhírinne lom: is deacair í a bhuaileadh! Is fanaiceach na fírinne mé féin i gcúrsaí teangacha ach, d'ainneoin sin, déarfainn go mbeadh sé níos éifeachtaí dá n-eiseofaí leagan milsithe di ó am go chéile.

''what it really means''

meanings change with time and place


and say what you want - but irish is my native language and english is the language i spoke first and most often

Say what you want, a Chonchubhair, as long as you keep in mind that you're using "native language" in a non-standard way which will cause confusion to those not familiar with the Irish situation. "Ancestral language" or even "national language" would be quite unproblematic terms, but "native language" has a specific definition in the social sciences (although not, as Aonghus points out, a precise and completely uncontroversial one), and one which is in general use elsewhere.

A Lughaidh, is cruinneas atá i gceist anso agus nach "fírinne". Ní rud níos fíoire an ghnáth-théarmaíocht, níl sí ach níos gnásúla.

be that as it may - if i do come into contact with someone who could get confused

while speaking - they would not know i was not a native irish speaker

(my written - they could spot a mile off)



this all ties down to the fact it should be the native language of all irish people - but i dont want to get into a history less and eventualy a history rant and argument

Until recently, that person was me. I'd never heard "native speaker" used in this way--not even from Irish citizens--until I joined Daltaí.com.

sorry i dont know what you mean

can you explain it?

I understand what he means.

For most people : native language = the first language you learnt, from your parents

For some Irish people : native language = official language of your country.

To be honest, I objected to the eagerness to jump on what was a casual (and clear, in the cicumstances of the post) use of a common phrase - I know that "native tongue" in general does not mean what Irish people are trying to convey when they talk about their native tongue. I suppose on a site devoted to language learning, we need to choose our meta-language (!) more carefully. You have said that you didn't mean to be condescending so of course that is accepted and I apologise if I was a bit glib.

quote:

I guess that the people who want to know the truth would care...

Nobody is attempting to conceal the truth but I can see how it might appear so to our foreign brethren. Everyone in Ireland would immediately know what an Irish person means when they speak about their native tongue. Our complex relationship with the language defies lexicography!

Sorry - a lot of posts sneaked in there since I started to type that message and got distracted.

no most irish people whether they know or use irish it is their native language

call it a wrong usage if you want but . . . doesnt change the meaning when used by an irishperson

lots of things in ireland dont stick to their original or proper meaning - learn the lingo (fake lingo i mean in the sense of its hiberno english and not irish)

I thought I did...

In the social sciences, your "native language" is (prototypically speaking) the one you learned to speak as your first language in childhood. The definition is straightforward where this is also your chief language into adulthood, but there are a lot of fuzzy edges, such as children who grow up in bilingual households or who undergo a language shift at a young age (e.g. from moving to a different country, etc.). That's the sources of the "disagreement" Aonghus mentions.

IME, this is the way the term is understood by the overwhelming majority of English-speakers. If you ask the average American what their "native language" is, they will say "English" regardless of their ethnic background (although some may qualify this by saying something like, "When I was a baby, I only spoke Chinese, but I don't remember it any more" or "I consider both English and Persian my native languages"--these are the fuzzy cases touched on above). If you tell them, "My native language is Irish," then they will automatically assume this means that Irish is the language your caregivers spoke to you when you were a baby and you learned to speak it before you picked up English.

The situation in Ireland is complex, since today it's a predominately English-speaking country, yet the Irish language is fundamental to its national identity in a way that, say, German isn't in the American Midwest (even though German is the ancestral language of a majority of us and only a minority can trace their roots to England). You are a native of Ireland, yet Irish is not your native language. It is your ancestral language, it is one of your national languages, but you didn't learn it "ó ghlúin do mháthar" the way we both learned English or Lughaidh learned French.

okay

i know what the term means

if your irish or have been there - you will know what someone means when they say native language


the distinction for most is - i grew up with english etc

quote:

call it a wrong usage if you want

I very carefully did not. I called it "non-standard", which it is in English--even (I venture to say) in the English of Ireland. That is, I don't recall ever seeing it used in the "casual" way An Chilleasrach describes even in official Irish government publications.

I know what it means in your vernacular now, and I wouldn't jump on someone for using it, but it will continue to be a confusing usage to people coming to this board from outside Ireland.

i disagree i have often seen it referred to as the ''native language''


a lot of things will be confusing to people outside of ireland - like breaking into irish halfway through a thread in the english half of this forum for example...

Not to people outside of Ireland who know Irish, and they are quite numerous on this forum, aren't they? :-)

Actually the special meanings of some Hiberno-English things may be harder to understand for non-Irish people here : although you can consult your dictionary for some Irish word you dunno, you wouldn't check every English word written here just in case it would have a different meaning in Hiberno-English (and is there a Hiberno-English dictionary? with things like "native language" ? not sure).

by the looks of it yes mostly non irish people - which is great for the language by the by

there is a hiberno english dictionary yes



lots of words used arent in the dictionry under what they are used for - this is one


ask any irish person - try to avoid one with a union jack or an english flag - and they will say there native language is irish


they probaly grew up speaking english tho

Ok, then on an international forum like this one, Irish people should be careful about these ambiguous expressions or meanings, because most non-Irish visitors don't have the Hiberno-English dictionary ! In some cases like this one, there may be misunderstandings.

there may be - but my native language is irish

if i said i was fluent there would be misunderstandings

or i speak it natively, that would be off puting and wrong

Those who understand "native language" = "mothertongue" don't need to ask whether you're fluent in it, you're always fluent in your mothertongue. They just believe it's your mothertongue.

well - either way irish is my native language

never claim t be fluent in it.... so no confusion

Once again :

Those who understand "native language" = "mothertongue" don't need to ask whether you're fluent in it, you're always fluent in your mothertongue. They just believe it's your mothertongue.

again

irish is my native language - didnt learn it from a young age naturaly


is that confusing - really?

quote:

is that confusing - really?

To those for whom "native language" means "language learned from birth" (i.e. the vast majority of people who speak English), yes. It's as if you used "mother tongue" to means "language my mother spoke but that I don't".

Withdrawn.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on May 21, 2009)

okay

never had any confusion with it - fairly simple concept to grasp

quote:

Ok, then on an international forum like this one, Irish people should be careful about these ambiguous expressions or meanings, because most non-Irish visitors don't have the Hiberno-English dictionary ! In some cases like this one, there may be misunderstandings.

Agreed. I would say that it was clear enough in Seán's original post, given that he was talking about his learning of the language as an adult. But, in general, you certainly make a fair point. Given that my GAA thread went down like a lead balloon, I would extend your advice to a range of localisms, which are probably a complete mystery to many contributors here!

This thread brings to mind that Carlsberg ad - "a poem in our native language" and all that. Except the guys in that ad were trying to deceive their audience, which makes the connection even more confusing. And it's another local reference that half the board won't get. I give up!

Conchubhar1 Irish is not your native language because you were raised with English as your first language.

Most Irish people may consider Irish as their native tongue but this is factually misleading for people in other countries. I would never say that Irish was my native language as I was not born and raised with Irish at home to say otherwise is a lie. Native language does indeed equate to mother tongue.

You cannot become fluent in your native language because Irish is your second language although there are instances where native Irish speakers have forgotten their Irish and reacquainted themselves with it in later life.

It's a term floated around by the media a lot.

I suppose it's a credit to the founders of the State and the Gaelic League in its early years that most Irish people still seem to have a positive, emotional attachment to the language, even if it rarely translates into speaking it fluently or habitually.

There are parts of the country where Irish as a community language has been dead for three centuries, yet you'd undoubtedly find people in every county who'd consider Irish their 'native tongue'.

Maith thú Conchubhar
its amazing that many claim to have Gaeilge , yet they spend Hours and Days trying to get Irish people to explain themselves , when I and Conchubhar , say that Irish is our Native Language , We know exactlly what we mean , as im sure the rest of the people who have replyed to this post , weather or not the term is Internationlay correct, is neither here nor there , if we were to go around debating the Americanisms and Frenchisms that occcur here , it would get ridiculas. I personally think that Conchubhar has explained his self very well and i understand him totaly , and agree with him. maybe its a mindset that we mean, more than a fluency , my mom was from beside Killybegs and a lot of Donegal natives moved and settled in Derry so apart from that Strong influence and the fact that i havent been outside Ireland accept on Holidays , i guess ( and i hope i dont expalin this wrongly on your behalf Conchubhar) it is a mindset of how we say certain phrases and structure,s that are based in English , but are drowned out by Accent and Irishisms ,
Native , Most definitely , but its a debate , and youse are most welcome to disagree

Discussing what is called a stipulative definition is quite frankly pointless. In any discussion it is perfectly allowed to define or redefine terms for the purpose of an argument of discussion. Such a definition may contradict existing definitions and as such they cannot be either "correct" or "incorrect". Alas for the lexical purists here, but thus the laws of logic dictate.

Stipulative definitions are just tags, i.e. if I want to call a sphere a cube I can do so without being "incorrect". The object doesn't change simply because I choose to give it a different name. The only thing that can be debated is whether a particular stipulative definition is whether it's useful or not. Is the whole issue really that important, I wonder?

(Message edited by an_fear_rua on May 24, 2009)

Where I live, nearly everyone refers to Irish (well other than those that despise it) as their "native" language. Many of them barely have the "cúpla focail".

Maybe you would describe the use of "native" in the South of Ireland as a colloquial term. And like Lughaidh has stated on numerous occasions about his written Gaeilge, there is no law in not using a standardized form of a language or a word in an informal context.

Ye'd get an awful shock in Kerry if ye were to try and correct them on referring to the Irish as their native language!!


(Message edited by Ardri on May 24, 2009)

I have referred to Irish as my "native language" or the "native language of the Irish people" many times.

I'm well aware that it's not the correct definition of the term but I deliberately use it anyway as an attempt to express the strength of my feelings about Irish - I'm not just trying to pick up some second language, I'm learning to speak.

Likewise I believe the Irish language is the only true voice of the Irish people.
The largely successful effort to denigrate it and wipe it out has been one of the vilest crimes ever committed against our nation leaving generations like strangers in their own country - completely cut off from their heritage and history, not understanding even the meanings of their own surnames or the names of the areas in which they live their lives.

Considering these feelings, which many Irish people have, how could bland-sounding phrases like "ancestral tongue" or "the state's first national language" ever be adequate?

each to their own

i think it was summed up nicely there by people


i doubt anyone would be confused by it, and a simple quick question would fix that and my love for the language would be well known to the person and later could be introduced to their friend who speaks irish.....

quote:

I deliberately use it anyway as an attempt to express the strength of my feelings about Irish

Ok, then if feelings are enough, I can say Irish is my native tongue too?
But I won't, I don't like lying. I even don't say Breton is my native language although it is just as true that it's my native tongue as Irish is yours...