You never lenite the saorbhriathar, is that correct?

But I have read, or heard "Níor shíleadh..." agus mar sin de.

Are there cases where you would do it anyway, dialectwise for example?

It is correct to say "hata an fhir" / "hata fhear an tí", but what about multiple genitives in succession like:

"hata fir eagraíochta ban cócaireachta troisc" and what about any lenition, if any, that should be in there?


Take for example: "hata fir mhóir chathrach ban cócaireachta troisc", is that correct?

I have read that native speakers (in more than one language) - who we can't expect to be all super linguists - avoid difficult (genitive) constructions.

How does this pan out in Irish?

Another question: the gnáthchaite is an historical case; do you then say: "an fear a bhínn tráth" or "an fear a mbínn tráth"?

Irish grammar is driving me crazy - with curiosity, not with frustration.

And by the way, how would you translate "frustration"?

quote:

You never lenite the saorbhriathar, is that correct?

But I have read, or heard "Níor shíleadh..." agus mar sin de.

It may be the past habitual :

Níor shíleadh Seán = Seán wouldn't think (habitually)...
Or even a conditional form with the f missing.

quote:

Are there cases where you would do it anyway, dialectwise for example?

For some irregular verbs, like thángthas, chonacthas...

quote:

It is correct to say "hata an fhir" / "hata fhear an tí", but what about multiple genitives in succession like:

"hata fir eagraíochta ban cócaireachta troisc" and what about any lenition, if any, that should be in there? Take for example: "hata fir mhóir chathrach ban cócaireachta troisc", is that correct?

Tell me what you meant in English...

quote:

I have read that native speakers (in more than one language) - who we can't expect to be all super linguists - avoid difficult (genitive) constructions.

How does this pan out in Irish?

People rarely put more than 3 nouns together anyway, in everyday speech...

quote:

Another question: the gnáthchaite is an historical case; do you then say: "an fear a bhínn tráth" or "an fear a mbínn tráth"?

Anyway you wouldn't use "bí" to say "the man I was once". You'd use "is", or "bí" with a prepositional construction.
And I'm not sure you'd use the past habitual in that example anyway, normally the past habitual refers to things that happen more than once.

Your first question, Acco:

You can lenite the initial consonant of an saorbhriathar in any tense except -- except -- except -- the -- THE AIMSIR CAITE. Arís? THE AIMSIR CAITE! -- In what tense is it forbidden to lenite the Briathar Saor / Saorbhriathar???? AN AIMSIR CAITE. Lenite away on all the rest.

So what are the five tenses using "cuir"
Cuirtear / Ní chuirtear
Cuirfear / Ní chuirfear
Chuirtí / Ní chuirtí
Chuirfí / Ní chuirfí

ach - ACH --
Cuireadh / Níor cuireadh.

That's the rule taught in school. Sin mar a mhúintear (!) ar scoil an riail sin. Sin mar a múineadh domsa é. (That is as it was taught to me.)

Interesting word that "mar" -- worth looking up in Ó Dónaill and learning a half dozen usages.

Your last question:
frustrachas: Tá gramadach na Gaeilge do mo chur soir -- le fiosracht seachas le frustrachas.

I answered the easy ones. The others may be more difficult.

A further thought on the Briathar Saor. People who know Irish fairly well often fail to recognise it when translating from English. How many times have you seen "Foilsithe 2009" instead of "Foilsíodh 2009" or "2009 a foilsíodh" where 2009 is an adverb of time like inné or amárach.

So how would you say in Irish: This book was published in 1950?

OK. I'll try.

With nouns only the last one goes in the Tuiseal Ginideach but not "verbal nouns" they are different.

Take for example the teacher "an múinteoir" now the teacher's house: "teach an mhúinteora" and the door of the teacher's house "doras teach an mhúinteora" and the knocker of the door of the teacher's house "baschrann doras teach an mhúinteora" (you'd expect "theach" but the DNTLS rule intervenes)
I may be wrong but I think that's the modern standard rule.

The verbal noun is different. You put that in the tuiseal ginideach: múchadh dóiteán == the quenching of fires. Lucht múchta dóiteán == those who quench fires, fire fighters.

A verbal noun? A verb is an "action" word. A noun is a "naming" word. A verbal noun is both.

Your sentences don't seem to make much sense:

"hata fir eagraíochta ban cócaireachta troisc" and what about any lenition, if any, that should be in there?

"The hat of a man who organises women who cook cod?" (That's the gist of it. There are mistakes. I couldn't begin to sort them out.)

[You say] Take for example: "hata fir mhóir chathrach ban cócaireachta troisc", is that correct? [No. I wouldn't think so. What is it supposed to mean?]

I suggest coming at the language from the Irish side. Learn a verse of a song or a poem and then learn the grammar from the Irish. Trying to make up sentences without having a thorough grasp of the rules would certainly drive you "soir" - "ar mire". Work back from what's there already. It's easier.

quote:

So how would you say in Irish: This book was published in 1950?

Maidir liomsa: "I 1950 a foilsíodh an leabhar seo"

Tá tú ró-mhaith :-)

As for the cascade of genitives, there was an article in Irish giving advice on this, but I can't remember where to find it.

But as both Lughaidh and Taidhgín say, this kind of construct is unnatural in Irish, and usually only occurs when someone is trying to word for word translate a passage.

Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitänsmütze, say....

(Caipín a chaitheann Captaen atá fostaithe ag cumann loing gaile an Donau, nó rud éigin mar sin)

Found it:
http://www.acmhainn.ie/tearmai/seimhiu.htm

Scroll down to
"An Tuiseal Ginideach agus Aonaid Ilfhoclacha"

Some other good advice

http://www.gaeilge.ie/dynamic/docs/Treoracha_dAistritheoir%C3%AD.pdf

Tríd is tríd, is féidir a rá gurb iad aidhmeanna an aistritheora:
1. Ciall na cainte a bheith soiléir agus cruinn.
2. Dul na Gaeilge a bheith ar an gcaint.

Yeah a Thaidhgín, of course it is the briathar saor in the *past* that is not lenited (except irregular verbs). I forgot to say it because it was obvious in my mind, but I should have said it. Tá mé buartha.

My repetition of "except" and "ach" etc was not a sáiteán directed at anyone. As they say in Dublin "I was only messin' " I was imitating the style of an old teacher of mine long ago, trying to elicit an answer from the pupils.

Ná bíodh buairt ar bith ort, a Lughaidh. I also forgot that some of the irregular verbs take a séimhiú ar thúschonsan an tsaorbhriathair san aimsir caite: namely bhíothas, chualathas, chuathas, and thangthas. An bhfuil siad go léir agam? This is a wonderful medium for aquiring and consolidating knowledge.

Has anyone noticed that RTÉ Nuacht seems to have abandoned "fuarthas" in favour of "fuaireadh". Yuk! I haven't noticed it on Raidio na Gaeltachta yet.

Iar-scríbhinn eile: I wonder have I discovered a "rule" accidentally or is it just an error of mine. I wrote "an aimsir caite" and I believe that to be correct. "Caite" is an aidiacht briathartha but I think there is a relative clause hidden there which lets me off the hook of having to put a séimhiú an the c of caite. "an aimsir [atá] caite". Aimsir bhroghach; aimsir fhuar; but aimsir caite ...?

quote:

bhíothas, chualathas, chuathas, and thangthas. An bhfuil siad go léir agam? This is a wonderful medium for aquiring and consolidating knowledge.

Well, being able to give a list, by heart, of the irregular verbs that are lenited in the past briathar saor may be useful for a teacher, but not for a "normal" speaker : you just need to get these verbs right when you use them...

jesus christ you people make a point of being condescending

What is condescending in what I wrote? You see condescending things everywhere...

well it was obvious in my mind

being able to list of is of no use etc


they are condencending - no matter what way you look at them

the ''normal'' speaker in brackets was also - essentially slagging of the posters irish and there way of learning and speaking


tadghín - rté is a national broadcaster so that change s for the better to be honest

quote:

being able to list of is of no use etc

Looks like you didn't understand what I meant, probably what I wrote wasn't clear.
Another example that'll be clearer, I hope:

You are a native speaker of English. If I ask you to recite me a complete list of the irregular verbs of English, would you manage? I don't think so because you've not learnt their list by heart, you just know what they are when you use them because English is your mothertongue. What is important is not to know a list by heart, but to use the correct forms of these verbs in use.
I am not able to recite by heart a list of the irregular verbs of French, but I know how to conjugate them when I speak and write.
Do you understand what I mean now?

but to know the list is how people learn a second or foreign language

practice gives them well . . . practice and then they will

''just get them right when they use them''

When I was learning English at school I learnt the verbs but we weren't asked to write down the list from memory, just to learn by heart what is the preterite and the past participle of verbs when seeing the infinitive. We had exercises like:

to put - -
to give - -

etc

and we had to write the preterite and the past participle in the place of the "-". Anyway.

okay

in ireland for irish and french and from what i hear other languages we use the list

then you have it - stored up - and naturally with practice yu wont use the list because you will ascoiate when to use them in normal everyday sentences and diff times

The secret to putting a sentence together is to put prepositions into the Irish version of a string of nouns in the English version. ie Ireland’s National Employment Action Plans = Pleananna Gníomhartha um Fostaíochta Náisiúnta na hÉireann nó Pleananna Gníomhartha i dtaca Fhostaíocht Náisiúnta na hÉireann.
Nílim ach ag tabhairt mo bharúil duit ar an mbealach as an dtrioblóid le go leor ainmfhocail le chéile.

Anois, dá mbeadh na Pleananna úd agat, a Mhick Rua, agus feidhm leo, bheidh do fhortún déanta!

beidh tú inár slánathóir ^

Dá mbeadh bheadh cinnte! :-)

You can lenite the initial consonant of an saorbhriathar in any tense except -- except -- except -- the -- THE AIMSIR CAITE. Arís? THE AIMSIR CAITE! -- In what tense is it forbidden to lenite the Briathar Saor / Saorbhriathar???? AN AIMSIR CAITE. Lenite away on all the rest.


I found these examples in An Foclóir Beag

"níor fhoilsíodh"
"níor shíleadh"

so I'm a little confused...



I have a question about the Gnáthchaite:

Is it:
Ar bhínn tú ann go minic
or
An mbínn tú ann go minic?

Ar fhoilsíteá gach seachtain?
or
An bhfoilsíteá gach seachtain?

Is cuimhin liom gur bhíodh sé ann?
or
Is cuimhin liom go mbíodh sé ann?

And if it's the second version each time why would you use an urrú in an historical tense where it's otherwise always a séimhiú - except in indirect clauses?

GRMA.

quote:

I found these examples in An Foclóir Beag

"níor fhoilsíodh"
"níor shíleadh"

so I'm a little confused...

Just typos.

quote:

I have a question about the Gnáthchaite:

Is it:
Ar bhínn tú ann go minic
or
An mbínn tú ann go minic?

An mbíteá ann go minic? (An mbínn? = Was I?)
An bhfoilsíteá rud gach seachtain? ("rud" because you must tell something which is revealed)
... go mbíodh sé ...

"Ar, níor, gur, nár, sular, munar" only in aimsir caite, in no tense else.

quote:

And if it's the second version each time why would you use an urrú in an historical tense where it's otherwise always a séimhiú - except in indirect clauses?

There's urú because of "an" and "go".
There's seimhiú in "Bhínn ann" because it once was "Do bhínn ann" (the particle "do" is omitted today. But you still see it before vowels and fh:, e.g. d'fhoilsínn = I used to reveal)

Lars

Hi ACCO, You know the old saying "paper never refused ink" and the computer practice of "copy and paste" leads to "garbage in garbage out". I hope An Foclóir Beag does not have errors in it but the two examples you gave should be "Níor foilsíodh" and "Níor sileadh". I'll have a look and get back to you. If the lenition is there it should be drawn to the attention of the Editors in An GÚM who are responsible for An Foclóir Beag.

To answer your other questions:

quote:

I have a question about the Gnáthchaite:

Is it:
Ar bhínn tú ann go minic
or
An mbínn tú ann go minic?

Answer: It is neither. If the meaning is "Used you be there often?" it should be "An mbíteá ann go minic?" (pronounced "mbítheá")

The endings for the gnáthchaite FOR THIS VERB are [1st person singular] ~inn; [2nd person singular] ~íteá; [3rd person singular] ~íodh sé/sí; [1st person plural] ~ímis; [2nd person plural] ~íodh sibh; [3rd person plural] ~ídis

Other verbs are affected by the "caol le caol" rule and the Réimniú.

quote:

Ar fhoilsíteá gach seachtain?
or
An bhfoilsíteá gach seachtain?

The latter is correct if the intended meaning is "Used you publish every week?

quote:

Is cuimhin liom gur bhíodh sé ann?
or
Is cuimhin liom go mbíodh sé ann?

The latter.

quote:

And if it's the second version each time why would you use an urrú in an historical tense where it's otherwise always a séimhiú - except in indirect clauses?

I look at it differently:

Use the urú after An or Nach or go or mura or dá
Use the séimhiú after Ar or Nár or gur or murar or má.

Ar chuir tú an t-airgead sa bhanc (Past tense / aimsir caite)

An gcuirteá an t-airgead sa bhanc (Past habitual tense / gnáthchaite)

quote:

I hope An Foclóir Beag does not have errors in it but the two examples you gave should be "Níor foilsíodh" and "Níor sileadh".

It has, if I remember well, it would change s to ts when there's an urú on it... which is nonsense. An s doesn't change when eclipsed (except that it becomes z in Cleare Island Irish :-D ).

An Foclóir Beag online does have bugs. Unfortunately, it is no longer under development, so they will not be fixed. As far as I know, there are no verb tables in the hard copy version. The online ones are generated, and have some glitches.

I'm sorry to hear that there are flaws in AN FOCLÓIR BEAG. It is such a great idea. I have just had a look at the verb FOILSIGH (publish, reveal) on GLÉACHT -- the new version -- and right-clicking on the verb gives all the tenses in the positive. That leaves it up to you to know that these words go with most of the tenses: Ní, An, go, nach, and these go with only one: Níor, Ar, gur, nár, and for six irregular verbs they are not used at all even in that one tense. Who knows which is the "odd one out" tense?

Who will tell us which of those are followed by lenition and which by urú? What of the six really irregular verbs? What is to be said about them?

in Ulster:

gur úrt (=go ndúirt)
gur rug
gur chualaidh/go gcualaidh (=gur chuala)
go dtearn/go dtearr (=go ndearna)
go bhfuair
go bhfacaidh (= go bhfaca)
gur ith
go dtug (=gur thug)
go dtánaic... (=gur tháinig)
go dteachaigh (=go ndeachaigh)
go rabh (=go raibh)

quote:

Some other good advice

http://www.gaeilge.ie/dynamic/docs/Treoracha_dAistritheoir%C3%AD.pdf

Unfortunately, I get this message when I attempt a download of this pdf:

Toisc go bhfuil muid ag obair ar an suíomh faoi láthair, tá roinnt leathanach i ndiaidh bogadh, nó i ndiaidh imeacht ar fad.

Bummer.

They appear to have taken down that particular document.

I can't find it here, but some of the links may cover similar stuff
http://www.irish.ie/Tearmai_&_Aistruchain/Treoirlinte.asp