i was just wondering what the difference in these two were... anyone that can help, thank you very much!!



Tá grá agam daoibh a Dhaid/Athair

Tá grá agam duit, a athair/a dhaid.

dom duit do di duinn daoibh dóibh
to me to you to him to her to us to ye to them

so - i love ye (you plural) dad and i love you, dad


as far as i am aware - the first one makes no sense?

Tá grá agam daoibh a Athair, said the altarboy to the priest (apparently priests can be sibh and not tú)

kind of like french?

formal address?

didnt think irish had that - this seems to be said to your father as in your relation also, so i doubt it

It still exists in Scots Gaelic.

is that scots gaelic?

cool, learn something new everyday - thought irish never had the distinction like french

In Irish, you say tú to everybody (when you're talking to one person, of course) except to priests, with whom you use "sibh" (so daoibh, libh, etc).


In Scottish Gaelic, it's a bit like in French, you use "sibh" with people you don't know well, to your "superiors" (boss...), to older people, etc.

in irish, to a priest


conas atá sibh?


that doesnt sound right

But conas tánn sibh? sounds fine.

In Munster at least, the originally plural form taoi survives fossilised in that one expression, so conas taoi? can be used to one person or several.

(Message edited by Domhnaillín_Breac_na_dTruslóg on May 02, 2009)

Is taoi originally from the 2nd psn pl? I didn't realise that.

The original 2nd psn pl was táthaoi, not taoi but maybe it lost a syllable.

Do you mean that in Old Irish one said "sibh" to a single priest (singular not plural). I never heard that.
And that they still use this form in Scotland.

for me-
tú is singular
sibh is plural

Bridmhór,

You posted to say what the correct forms "for you" are. Your post implies that you are a native speaker of Irish raised in the Gaeltacht, right?

Domhnaillín wrote:

...the originally plural form taoi survives...

And does this in anyway correlate to Olde Ynglische "thou/thee"?

No.
Taoi is a verb form. Thou was a pronoun, cognate with tú.

The English word cognate with "taoi" and the verb táim in general is "stand".

No.
Taoi is a verb form. Thou was a pronoun, cognate with tú.

The English word cognate with "taoi" and the verb táim in general is "stand".

I will clarify what I said-

Do you mean that in Old Irish one said "sibh" to a single priest (singular not plural)?? I never heard that.
And that they still use this form in Scotland??

for me-
tú is singular for you
sibh is plural for you

Actually don't bother answering that.

How did I imply that I was a native Irish speaker??

Earlier Irish, a Bhrídmhóir, not necessarily Old Irish. And not just to priests, but to any social "superiors". This was the general pattern throughout Europe in late mediaeval times. It survives in Scottish Gaelic and in French; in English the polite plural eventually edged out the historical singular form, thou. Basque underwent a similar development: historical singular hi is archaic, replaced by the historical plural zu. A modification of this, zuek, functions as the modern plural form.

In much of the rest of Europe, third person forms established themselves as more polite alternatives to the second-person plural, e.g. Sie in German, Usted (a contraction of Vuestra Merced "Your [plural] Mercy") in Spanish, Você in Portuguese, and so forth. The lack of this development in Irish probably says something about the social structure of early modern Ireland.

Go raibh maith agat, a Dhomhnaillín

quote:

Do you mean that in Old Irish one said "sibh" to a single priest (singular not plural)?? I never heard that.

I don't know about Old Irish.
Graiméar na mBráithre Críostaí about Modern Irish
"13.29 Iolra an fhorainmnigh a úsáidtear go minic ag caint le heaglaiseach.
Iolra an ómóis a thugtar air:
Dia daoibh, a athair; conas tá sibh, a athair? fanaigí anseo, más é bhur dtoil é, a
shagairt."

Lars

Bridmhór, you said "for me tú is singular and sibh is plural", denying that sibh is used to a priest. I assumed you must be a native speaker from the Gaeltacht, as you said "for me such and such a thing is right". If you are not a native speaker, then clear what strikes any individual learner as right is not relevant (regardless of the details of the correct usage of sibh).

seant, where the hell did you get that

bríd never said, this is definitley not right - as said before i doubt this is still used, extremely doubt it - but i only visit the gaeltacht im not from it but my mother was and she never uses it

Bhuel níor chuala mé riamh faoin usáid de 'sibh' le Athair ach is dócha go bhfuil ciall ann.
Níor chuala mé faoin usáid de sibh san Scots gaelic ach oiread - suimiúil!

Oh sea - is maith liom do chuid síniú a Ormondo - "Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin."! Tá sé fíor! :L



(Message edited by tóggobógé on May 03, 2009)

All I am saying is that there is no private grammar for learners.

I have asked numerous questions on numerous lists, and got the answer from learners "I would say...". But clearly I don't want to copy a learner, however fluent. If I asked a question, it would be to find out what the native speakers say - not the opinion of a learner. If the learner knew what the Gaeltacht Irish used, that would be a helpful thing to relay. But not "I would say" - as we don't to be blind leading the blind.

There are also some rather fluent learners of Irish on some lists - Lughaidh, Panu and others on various lists - whose English is not word-perfect, leading to some doubt about whether their learning of Irish is any more likely to be 100% accurate. (90% would be a good goal for a learner, but 100% may be unattainable) And yet many of these, when asked a question, immediately reply, "I would say....", as if they were native speakers. They should just say what they know to be true of native Irish, and not suggest that their own learned Irish is equivalent in quality to native Irish.

There are many, many examples on Daltaí where Irish people from the Galltacht have responded with "I would say...", and then proceeded to teach others things that would be erroneous in any dialect. "I would say" has nothing with it unless you are a native speaker.

On the question of sibh [I said above: what strikes any individual learner as right is not relevant (regardless of the details of the correct usage of sibh)]: the Christian Brothers' Grammar is clear on the subject, but maybe usage has changed over the decades in the Gaeltacht. To tell us usage has changed in the Gaeltacht is useful; to tell us you are a learner in the Galltacht and "I would say XYZ" is not helpful.

quote:

Graiméar na mBráithre Críostaí about Modern Irish
"13.29 Iolra an fhorainmnigh a úsáidtear go minic ag caint le heaglaiseach.
Iolra an ómóis a thugtar air:
Dia daoibh, a athair; conas tá sibh, a athair? fanaigí anseo, más é bhur dtoil é, a
shagairt."

GGBC doesn't describe "Modern Irish" but "Standard Irish".
Maybe it is recommended to use "sibh" in Standard Irish but it doesn't mean it is used today in all Gaeltacht areas.
By the way, there are several things in Standard Irish that aren't used in any Gaeltacht area today...

Seant, although I'm not a native speaker, I know what I know and when I'm not sure about the answer I've given, I say it (or I don't answer at all).

What are the things in Standard Irish not used in any Gaeltacht area today? I know about genitive plurals not always used in the GAeltacht but would love to know what other things there were.

- Bhur (úr in M, a in C, mur in U)
- difference de / do (but it exists in prepositional pronouns)
- -amar in the past (in Munster they use -amair)
- déanaim > looks like people use díon- in Connachta, ghní- in Ulster (except in the dependent form) and dein- in Munster
- several prepositional pronouns (fúthu... it is fútha in M, fúthab in C, faofa in U)
- chuig (chuin in Munster, ag in Ulster and C)
- chugam, chugat... (chugham, chughat in Munster, agam, agad/'am 'ad in Ulster and C)
- tabharfaidh mé... (tubharfad in M, tiubharfaidh mé in C, bheirfidh mé in U) - but maybe this one is used in some micro-Gaeltacht like An Rinn...

- "conas atá tú?" may be used in one or two villages (conas ataoi or conas atánn tú in M, cén chaoi 'bhfuil tú in C, cad é mar atá tú in U)...


Many of these forms are not made-up ones, they are historical forms that existed in the literary language long ago. But I doubt it's a good idea to prefer these historical forms in Standard Irish, rather than the Gaeltacht everyday ones...

Cad is brí don straoiseog sin: ":L" ?

(Fáilteofar roimh gach tuairim agus leid; tá "déarfainn" ceadaithe sa fhreagra.)

Fáilte isteach, a thóggobogé.


The lack of this development in Irish probably says something about the social structure of early modern Ireland.

Os rud é gur dhíbireadh an uaisleacht agus an chléir um an dtaca sin, is dócha. D'imigh sé as úsáid sa Bhéarla thart ar an tréimhse chéanna, ceapaim. Más fíor sin, b'fhéidir go bhfuil baint éigin ann.

seant go to the gaeltacht - i call only comment on kerry, conamara and mayo but

scattered with english, i think your over emphasising the gaeltachts standard tbh

Conchubhar1, I do not understand the term "the gaeltacht's standard", so I am not sure exactly what you are saying.

Lughaidh, yes, some of those are historical. Some of them, eg fúthu, well that would be pronounced fútha, right? But as ag becomes acu, maybe they decided to standardise on -u endings rather than u when stressed and a when unstressed? It has its logic.

Conas atánn tú? Conas ataoi? I don't think these forms exist in the Munster Gaeltacht. I think you will find Conas tánn tú and conas taoi, with no relative "a".

Seant, how about giving us a little background on yourself and why you are posting messages here on a site dedicated to the learning of Irish? Where in the world are you from? Why are you learning Irish? What stage are you at? What is your objective in seeking help here on this site? We are all learners.

Having been reared in the so-called Gaeltacht is no guarantee that one knows any Irish. Much of the "Official Gaeltacht" speaks English. Thankfully there are still areas where the language is spoken but how many of us here on Daltaí come from such areas. You may have to search for yet another list.

Many of us here are somewhat deferential in sharing our knowledge of Irish and might well preface our remarks with "I would say ...".

However since you do not want to "copy a learner however fluent" must we supply a birth cert and a Ph D degree to prove our competence?

Is there a possibility you were eventually barred from some of those "numerous lists" where you "asked numerous questions"?

If you impose restrictions on who may reply to your "questions" and then question their competence I suggest you should find a list of experts who will come up to your own exacting standards.

May I ask why you are asking "numerous questions"? Are you trying to learn Irish or find fault with those of us who are?

Taidhgín, I am obviously a learner of Irish. May I ask what your purpose is on this site? [yes, I know it is to learn Irish - but to play your trick on me back on you...] I have been as helpful as I can. Look through the archives. No I do not propose to provide my birth certificate online either... I found Lughaidh's listing of the elements of Standard Irish not found anywhere interesting.

A Lughaidh,
Do you think that Irish should be always written in the dialect of the writer? Following his own pronunciation?

If so I don't see how that could ever possibly work.
Every modern national language needs a literary standard.
Worrying about every dialectical variation of a word and the precise pronunciation in the everyday speech of all districts seems pointless.
Literary standards rarely if ever correspond to ordinary speech - that's not their function.

I'd agree with many of the choices of the divisers of the C.O. in the examples you've given above -
retaining familiar literary forms where the are three different forms for the three main dialects; allowing slight discrepancies between pronunciation and spelling for the sake of regularity and uniformity etc.



Is "Conus atá tú?" the prescribed caighdeán way of expressing "How are you?" or is it the case, as I suspect, that it has simply become the most common way taught to learners? Presumably because it corresponds closest (in word order and meaning) to the English phrase and so is easier for learners to grasp?

(This is not intended as a criticism of any views you may or may not have or your habit of using Ulster forms when writing - which is often very interesting.)

irish cant afford to be limited in any way - it doesnt have that luxury if it wants to survive

gaeltacht standard - funnily eneough - means the standard of irish in the gaeltacht

and yes, irish is not spoken in some gaeltachts, parts of mayo being the weakest ive seen

people who write or type or say anything, have to use i would say etc , as it is an opininion

do you not agree?


this thread went on a complete - complete - complete tangent

quote:

Lughaidh, yes, some of those are historical. Some of them, eg fúthu, well that would be pronounced fútha, right? But as ag becomes acu, maybe they decided to standardise on -u endings rather than u when stressed and a when unstressed? It has its logic.

Normally, in prepositional pronouns, the final -u is a "long one" (you'd write it as /u:/ in phonology). And unstressed long u's are pronounced as English oo in Munster, as far as I know, not as /@/... See the verbal nouns in -ú. They are not pronounced with /@/ in Munster.

quote:

Conas atánn tú? Conas ataoi? I don't think these forms exist in the Munster Gaeltacht. I think you will find Conas tánn tú and conas taoi, with no relative "a".

Don't you know that the relative particle "a" is seldom pronounced in spoken Irish?
It's just as if you said "I don't think people say "Tá mé ag léamh leabhair" in the Gaeltacht. I think you'll find "Tá mé 'léamh leabhair".
There are letters you write but normally you don't pronounce them...

quote:

A Lughaidh,
Do you think that Irish should be always written in the dialect of the writer? Following his own pronunciation?

I think everyone should do as he likes.
However, I think it would be a very bad think preventing people from writing in their dialect if they want to.
As I already said (several times), the Gaeltacht dialectes are getting weaker and weaker. If you teach to Gaeltacht people that they have to write in Standard Irish, with forms and words they don't use in their own dialect, they'll think their dialect is not proper Irish and they'll not speak it to their children. And Irish will die as a naturally transmitted language. I think Gaeltacht speakers should be supported in writing in their Irish, using the forms and words that are used in their area. In this way, the richness of their dialect won't disappear.
And it is not really writing following the pronunciation, but following the etymology (the underlying form).
For example, you can't say "fúthab" or "faofa" are just "fúthu" pronounced another way. There's no pronunciation rule that says that an etymological long u is pronounced -ab in Connachta or that ú has to be ao in Ulster, that th is f and that long u is a... So they *are* different form, and why would one be better than the others? (especially if the standard form isn't used anywhere...)

quote:

Worrying about every dialectical variation of a word and the precise pronunciation in the everyday speech of all districts seems pointless.

Ok, then linguistics is pointless, languages are pointless. Irish lexicography is pointless. But Irish is a group of dialects, and if the dialects disappear, Irish will disappear.

quote:

Literary standards rarely if ever correspond to ordinary speech - that's not their function.

But in the case of endangered languages, imposing a standard that isn't based on any dialect, and moreover, preventing the (few) native speakers from using their own language will just lead the language to its death. Every effort should be made to support the living natural language. Replacing it by an artificial dialect is just a way to make it die more quickly.

quote:

Is "Conus atá tú?" the prescribed caighdeán way of expressing "How are you?" or is it the case, as I suspect, that it has simply become the most common way taught to learners? Presumably because it corresponds closest (in word order and meaning) to the English phrase and so is easier for learners to grasp?

Actually, there's no difference in meaning between conas, cén chaoi and cad é mar. SO I don't see why the "conas" sentence would be closer to English...

LUghaidh, if the word is atánn and not tánn, it should be pronounced athánn according to the rules of Munster Irish. So if the t is audible, there is not a??? Is the word sometimes pronounced with h?

Both tánn tú and thánn tú (and t(h)áim, t(h)áthar etc) exist in Munster (even when not relative), as far as I know.

quote:

Taidhgín, I am obviously a learner of Irish. May I ask what your purpose is on this site?

My purpose on this site is to help where I can. Take my word for it I know the language well. Not perhaps in the way Lughaidh knows it -- and I respect him for his scholarship -- but I speak it every day. When I ask questions I don't criticise those who answer.

The word "troll" came in to my mind and I looked up the meaning on the Internet. This is what I found: "A troll is someome who is fake and posts stupidities on the internet just to get atttention or to hurt people." Thankfully neither you, Seant, nor I fit that description.

Regarding the tangent: while I didn't think that "iolra an omóis" existed in Irish Lughaidh's reference to Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí is enough to convince me otherwise.

That's another reason I come to this site. Although I think I know a lot I realise I have a lot to learn. And I want to learn. Not annoy people.

Well I can find out whether people use the iolra an omóis in Cork soon - as I will be in the Gaeltacht soon. I have a long trip organized for late May to early June.

(Message edited by seant on May 03, 2009)

quote:

Lughaidh, if the word is atánn and not tánn, it should be pronounced athánn according to the rules of Munster Irish.

Cad iad na rialacha go bhfuilir ag smaoiniú orthu agus tú a rá seo, a Sheáin?

quote:

However, I think it would be a very bad think preventing people from writing in their dialect if they want to.

Indeed it would. Having a literary standard available for appropriate uses is not the same as forcing everyone to use it in all situations.

quote:

If you teach to Gaeltacht people that they have to write in Standard Irish, with forms and words they don't use in their own dialect, they'll think their dialect is not proper Irish and they'll not speak it to their children. And Irish will die as a naturally transmitted language.

I understand that danger.
Surely the answer is to ensure that native speakers understand completely the idea behind any written standard and that it should never be seen as "correct" Irish.
Actually, I think the people most prone to mistaking the literary standard for "proper Irish" are learners from the Galltacht who may spread their misunderstanding to the Gaedhealtachtaí if, for example, they end up teaching in a primary school there.
Having a written standard need not cause any harm to living Irish as long as everyone understands the idea behind it.
It's the artificial, spoken "central dialect" which causes problems.

quote:

For example, you can't say "fúthab" or "faofa" are just "fúthu" pronounced another way. There's no pronunciation rule that says that an etymological long u is pronounced -ab in Connachta or that ú has to be ao in Ulster, that th is f and that long u is a... So they *are* different form, and why would one be better than the others?

Is choosing one for use as the written standard form the same as deeming it superior to the others? It certainly shouldn't be although it's understandable why people may feel this way.

quote:

"Worrying about every dialectical variation of a word and the precise pronunciation in the everyday speech of all districts seems pointless."


Ok, then linguistics is pointless, languages are pointless. Irish lexicography is pointless. But Irish is a group of dialects, and if the dialects disappear, Irish will disappear.

I was referring to the process of devising a written standard.

quote:

But in the case of endangered languages, imposing a standard that isn't based on any dialect, and moreover, preventing the (few) native speakers from using their own language will just lead the language to its death.

"Imposing" and "preventing" need not be part of it.

quote:

Every effort should be made to support the living natural language. Replacing it by an artificial dialect is just a way to make it die more quickly.

Agreed - Regarding an artificial spoken dialect.
As I wrote above, a written standard if explained and used correctly poses no threat in my opinion (for what it's worth).

quote:

there's no difference in meaning between conas, cén chaoi and cad é mar. SO I don't see why the "conas" sentence would be closer to English...

There's a word for word correspondence between them:

How	Are	You
Conas	Atá	Tú

I'm not saying I agree that this should be the form taught to students at the exclusion of the others, simply that I understand why it often is.

Domhnaillín, I need to consult my reference works. There is a book called Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, which shows that atá is usually pronounced athá, and another book the Irish of West Muskerry shows the same thing. There is a long text transcribed into IPA in the middle of the book, with the pronunciation being that of Amhlaoibh Ó Luinse, and you will see how he pronounced it. So I feel on safe grounds in saying that the t in substantive verb present tense is lenited in Munster if it is in the relative form (prefixed by a). This is not exactly the same as the Waterford system of leniting it always (??). What have your researches revealed on this subject? It is always nice to be corrected by a knowledgeable person, and I am more than happy to be so corrected...

quote:

There's a word for word correspondence between them:
How Are You
Conas Atá Tú

And there's the same word for word correspondence between these:

How.....are.....you?
Cad é mar.....atá.....tú?
Cén chaoi.....a bhfuil.....tú?

Cad é - isn't this "how"?
Mar - as

cad é mar atá tú? How is it as you are?

Cén - what
caoi - condition

cén chaoi a bhfuil tú? What condition is it that you are?

Conas atá tú = Whatmanner is it that you are?

An rud ceannann céarna...

quote:

Cad é - isn't this "how"?

cad é = "what [is] it", e.g. Cad é sin? "What is that?"

Conas is one orthographical word despite being etymologically a contraction of cé ionas. If the standard spelling of cad é mar and cén chaoi were *goidéamar and *céachaoi, it would weaken James' argument somewhat. But as it stands, it's a fairly sound one and Lughaidh's replies make it seem like he's being deliberately dense.

I don't think learners are so stupid that they can't learn that "how" may be translated by two or three words in another language...
They all manage to learn that "thank you" is "go raibh maith agat", which has two words more. They aren't taught "buíochas leat" instead, under the pretext that it has 2 words just like the English equivalent...

Do you think pupils and students are too retarded to learn that???

Ag tagairt do “sibh” i gcás sagairt.

Níor chuala mise riamh é. Ach chuir mé ceist ar mo dhearthair agus a bhean.
Cheap chaoin duine acu go raibh sé aisteach agus níor chuala ceartar acu riamh ach oiread é. Tá mo dhearthair deich mbliana níos sinne ná mé, agus bhíodh sé ina chléireach fadó (nuair a bhíodh an tAifreann i Laidin). Ag an ám bhíodh ard-mheas agus ómós a thabhairt do shagairt. Chaithfeadh “A Athair” a thabhairt ar shagart cearr go leor, fiú i gcás m'uncail, a bhí ina shagairt. Ó déanadh sagairt dó ní thabhairfeadh mo mháthair aon ainm air ag caint leis ach “A Athair”. Mar shampla “A Athair an bhfuil tú ag iarraidh.....”.

Chuala mé "Timmí" ar cois chuain (soap radio RnaG) ag beannacht do shagart le "Dia dhaoibh, a Athair"

Léigh mé ait éigin go raibh an duine agus a Aingeal coimhdeachta i gceist leis an mbeannacht sin. Bheadh sé i gceist freisin go mb'fhéidir go mbeadh an Chomaoineach á iompar ag sagart, ar a shlí go othar nó eile.

Nach bhfuil Aingeal Coimhdeachta ceapaithe a bheith ag chuile dhuine.
Dhéanfeadh sé ciall i gcás an Chomaineach ceart go leor.
Ach fós ní bheadh ciall le "Dia dhaoibh" a rá mar bheadh tú a rá le Dia/mac Dé.