In the wikipedia artcle on irish syntax, the author uses the following sentence (after the verb)as an example of a nonfinite clause:

D'éirigh liom breith ar an liathróid.

Can someone explain what this means? I dont see anything nonfinite.

Literally:
It rose with me -- to catch -- [on] the ball

It actually means:
I succeeded in catching the ball.


Some verbs in Irish change in meaning when accompanied by a preposition or prepositional pronoun. This is one of them:

"D'éirigh mé ar maidin" means "I got up in the morning" but "D'éirigh liom an obair a dhéanamh" means "I succeeded in doing the work."

breith ar an liathróid = to catch the ball.
It is a nonfinite phrase because there's no definite verb form.
Definite would be e.g.: Rug mé ar an liathróid = I catched the ball.

Lars

Actually most dialects use the root "rug-" in the past when "to bear a child" is meant, and they use "bheir" in the past to say "catch" etc.

Beirim an leabhar go bhfuil rugtha amach ag Lughaidh ort, a Lars!

Níl mé iomlán cinnte áfach, a Lughaidh. Tá "Rug" i roinnt nathanna - "Rug mé greim air", abair.

Féach na samplaí seo ón nGriannach:

rug mé
Séamus 'ac Grianna: An Clár is an Fhoireann

1 - 2 as 2: abairt 1226, ag toiseacht ar lch 58, líne 2

Acht dá dtaradh orm d'innseóchainn do Mhuircheartach nár
rug mé ar aon ghunna riamh.


rug mé
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Bean Ruadh de Dhálach

1 - 2 as 2: abairt 4655, ag toiseacht ar lch 205, líne 24

Anois nuair rug mé buaidh ar lucht mailíse is aith-
iomráidh ba mhaith leat bheith liom agus a' séasúr a
chathamh in mo chuideachta.”


rug mé
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Le Clap-Sholus

1 - 2 as 2: abairt 306, ag toiseacht ar lch 19, líne 23

Rug mé greim ar a láimh agus theann mé uirthí.


rug mé
Seosamh 'ac Grianna: An Grádh agus an Ghruaim

3 - 4 as 4: abairt 73, ag toiseacht ar lch 9, líne 25

Rug mé ar an deilbh agus chuir mé 'na luighe ar a béal 's
ar a sróin í mar bhéadh sí i ndiaidh tuitim ón bhonn.

I'm sorry, but I can't figure out what makes a verb definite or indefinte?

Heidski, the infinitive is by definition an indefinite verb form.

Bheith, to be, the infinitive, so indefinite.
Táim, I am, a conjugated form of the verb, so definite.

Ah, Seant, I see. I hope my heartfelt thanks won't preclude me from asking questions regarding this issue at a latter date!

A Aonghus, is féidir go bhfaghthar sin sa litríocht, ach léigh mé an rud a scríobh mé i gcuid mhaith leabharthach, chualaidh mé san ollscoil é agus is iomaí amhrán as Tír Chonaill ins gcluintear "bheir mé ar..."

mar shompla, in An Saighdiúir Tréigthe:

Nó gur bheir mé ar an arm ba ghéire
Agus chuir mé a bhéal le cloich líof'


Mar sin, thig leat "rug ar" a fháilt ach chan bréag a d'úrt mé ach an oiread siocair go bhfuil "bheir" iontach coiteanta fosta...

Is this relevant? A book called Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne says on p277 that in Corca Dhuibhe the past tense of beirim is normally bheireas (etc), but can be rugas. Then it says "na foirmeacha atá bunaithe ar bheir is coitianta, ach baintear úsáid as rugadh sa bhrí 'saolaíodh', agus uaireanta as rug......"

That's what I said and it looks like it may be true in the other dialects too.

Don't confuse finiteness with definiteness. There are languages with definite verbs (Hungarian comes to mind), but these are relatively rare. Finite verbs, on the other hand, are widespread. A finite verb is one that is inflected for certain categories such as person and tense (the actual ones involved being very much language-dependent).

The opposite of finite is not indefinite but non-finite[*]. Non-finite verbs include such parts of speech as infinitives and gerunds (again, depending on the language involved). In can be argued that Irish has no non-finite verbs as such, since the so-called "verbal noun" and "verbal adjective" are inflected respectively as nouns and as adjectives and lack most of the syntactic properties of true verbs.


[*] English, in fact, has forms which are simultaneously non-finite and definite. For instance, his catching the ball. This must be a verbal form since it takes a direct object (ball), and a non-finite one at that (since it isn't inflected for person or tense). But it also functions as a noun (i.e. by taking the determiner his) and, in that respect, is definite (referring to a specific, identifiable catch rather than the activity of catching balls in general).

A Domhnaillín, "his catching the ball" is an awkward example because of the large % of people who say "him catching the ball":

I am getting impatient with “your” keeping secrets from me.

I am getting impatient with “you” keeping secrets from me.

The former is more widespread; the latter is fussier.

I suppose what makes these "gerunds" and not "verbal nouns" is that they have no plurals. There is no "keepings of secrets".

What makes them gerunds are the forms "catching balls" and "keeping secrets" as opposed to "catching of balls" and "keeping of secrets". The latter pair each consist of two nouns joined by a preposition, but it's impossible to explain the relationship between the two elements in "catching balls" and "keeping secrets" without bringing in complementation.

Not all nouns have a plural. The unacceptability of *"keepings of secrets" doesn't tell us anything when *"furnitures of secrets" or *"charismas of secrets" are equally unacceptable.

I think "keepings of secrets" is correct, if awkward. We speak of people's "comings and goings," for example.

I am getting impatient with “your” keeping secrets from me.

I am getting impatient with “you” keeping secrets from me.

The former is more widespread; the latter is fussier.




I meant to say the latter is the more widespread form - it doesn't really matter though as it's English, not Irish...

Cé nach eol dom faic faoin ábhar ná faoi "gerunds" srl bhain mé taitneamh as an gcomhrá thuas. Is léir gurb iomaí cloch atá ar pháidrín bhaill an fhóraim seo de bhreis ar fhoghlaim na Gaeilge. Ní le tarcaisne a deirim ach le hómós.

A Lughaidh, scríobh tú:

quote:

chan bréag a d'úrt mé ach an oiread siocair go bhfuil "bheir" iontach coiteanta fosta...

Tá, agus ní raibh sé i gceist agam a mhalairt a chuir in iúl. Ní raibh fúm ach a rá nach raibh an cheist chomh soiléir is a thug do chéad freagra le tuiscint.

Cheap mé gur chuir mo réamhrá sin in iúl.