My teacher in last weeks class basically said that two parents who learnt Irish and raise Irish speaking children that the children are not native Irish speakers but neo-native Irish speakers. This distinction/classification and opinion by my teacher that somehow native speakers raised by native speaking parents are superior to those raised by two parents who learnt Irish as a second language has perplexed me. I think of the 500 or so families in Comhluadar the organisation who support Irish speaking families in English speaking area's and what they would make of that statement. Also the amount of families in the Gaeltacht who have two native Irish speaking parents who don't raise Irish speaking children has always baffled me to be honest. Should a distinction be made native or neo native speakers? The term neo native Irish speaker belittles the amazing efforts of people in the Galltacht raising Irish speaking children. A friend of mine was raised an Irish speaker with a father from Conamara and mother from Sligo does that make her a neo-native speaker?

The distinction is important for some purposes (e.g. dialect transmission studies) and not important for others (e.g. everyday life.) I spend most of my time dealing with contexts where it isn't important, so I don't give it much thought. If someone can speak Irish I'm happy to speak Irish with them and that's that. Not denying that there is (in general, subject to exceptions) a difference, but it is of little concern to people who are using the language as opposed to studying it.

In Ireland -- offline -- there are so many people who have learned their Irish from various sources: a little at home, more at school, some in the Gaeltacht, and more from constant study of the language during adult life that they never think to categorise themselves as "native", "neo-native" "near-native" or "non-native" speakers of Irish. They are just Irish-speakers, Gaeilgeoirí, "Ireeshians" or whatever the local term may be.

As Abigail has pointed out succinctly there are those whose interest in Irish lies primarily in distinguishing the linguistic features of the language and describing them to other scholars.

There are still native-speakers of traditional Irish but very few and growing fewer by the decade. There are hundreds of thousands of "neo-native" speakers.

The real heros of Ireland are those who try hard to learn the language themselves and promote it in their communities. They help maintain the Naíonra, the Gaelscoil, the Cumann Gaelach, and An tAifreann Gaeilge.

Ordinary people like me just want to use the language as best we can, enjoy the literature and songs, and make some contribution to passing the language on to future generations. Is there a place for us on this forum even if linguistic scholars are not interested in our use of Irish? Us being only neo-native speakers. Let's not be discouraged. Future scholars will study our achievements, describing the "great revival shift".

Is a child born in Dublin of Chinese immigrants and raised with English to be considered a 'neo-native' English speaker?

I know many people who have two parents with poor English but their own English is 'perfect'. Native English by any standard. But it's an English-dominant environment out there [here]. The challenges that an Irish speaking Galltacht family face in what is effectively a completely English speaking country are somewhat different.

The difference is that most neo-native speakers don't speak properly. I mean most of them don't master the basics sounds of Irish (replacing them by the closest English ones) and make loads of grammar mistakes.
Of course you can talk Irish with them, but if you are a learner, they don't speak an Irish that you should imitate.

There are learners (here I mean "people who've learnt Irish while they were teenagers or adults", as Aibigéal for example) who speak a better Irish than most neo-native speakers. So as you said, it just depends what you want to do : just speaking Irish to someone who'll understand you and can answer in Irish, or improving your Irish...

Don't know what you mean, but voluntarily not talking to people is one of the worst language learning methods I know. My Irish improves if I speak it to a cast-iron pot.

Just imagine if all learners were so snobby and afraid to talk to each other for fear of 'corrupting' their own Irish. (Fortunately they aren't.)

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Don't know what you mean, but voluntarily not talking to people is one of the worst language learning methods I know

Where have I written that you shouldn't talk to some people ?
Caithfidh nár léigh tú go maith ar scríobh mé thuas.

Meabhraigh teachtaireacht Abigail thuas an seanscéal grinn faoi na scoláirí Gaeilge a chruinnigh timpeall na huaighe nuair a bhí duine dá gcomhleacaithe á chur. De réir mar a íslíodh an cónra síos san uaigh chrom na scoláirí ba mhó le rá a bhí ann an uair sin le go bhfeicidis an scríbhinn a cuireadh ar phláta aitheantais a gcarad. Tar éis tamaill labhair duine acu ós íseal i mBéarla agus dúirt, "Six mistakes."

Oh! Oh! Mheabhraigh ....

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it just depends what you want to do : just speaking Irish to someone who'll understand you and can answer in Irish, or improving your Irish...

Here. You're saying that speaking to someone with worse Irish won't improve your own (and is by implication a waste of time, possibly even a setback.) I say it will, has and does.

Léigh mé go maith an méid a scríobh tú. Níl agam le rá ach go bhfuil tú bréagach ann, agus go bhfuilim féin tinn tuirseach den ardnósachas seo. An Gaeilgeoir thú nó scoláire le Gaeilge?

(Message edited by Abigail on March 24, 2009)

Bhain sé sin gáire asam, a Thaidhgín! Dream iad sin a bheas linn i gcónaí.

You kinda have a weird outlook on the Language Lughaidh and you are well entitled to it. But as You are a Learner as i am and as i suspect most of this site are,. So i feel the only way to learn is to speak , and to speak without mistakes is Humanly impossible. So until someone from this site fluent or not can tell me he/she has not made mistakes, and hopefully in doing so learned from them, then i feel fully entitled to agree with Abigail.

Teifeach

Without boasting but having devoted all of my life to learning Irish -- and I'm in the last lap now -- I probably have a good knowledge of Irish. Yet when I look at any sentence I have written I can see where I have chosen a phrase from this dialect, an idiom from that, and a lot of dubious structures that strike me now as suspiciously of English origin. What am I to do? Stay silent? Spend another sixty years learning? Or go with the flow and use the Irish of today - a mixture of dialect, translation from English, new terminology, and structures heavily influenced by English. Why not. It is not a dead language. Living languages change and grow and absorb words from other languages and change them to suit their own requirements.

Think of England in the 14th Century (? not sure of my dates). Of the three most prominent writers Gower wrote in Latin, Langland in Anglo-Saxon, and Chaucer in a mixture of Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Norman-French, and anything else he cared to use. Chaucer is remembered as one of the first to have written in this new "amalgamated" language: English. Gower and Langland are all but forgotten.

Those of us who want to learn, use, and promote Irish will have to learn to tell our critics to ...eh ... dul i dtí diabhail ... tell them to use the language more themselves. Let them see how easy -- or not -- it would be for them to achieve the level of perfection they demand of us.

It is said of Máirtín Ó Cadhain that he drew on all dialects including those of Scottish Gaidhlig. His was a huge vigorous talent untrammelled by petty considerations of whether this word or that was used in this dialect or that. Now that Cré na Cille has been dramatised and is available on CD Rom it is possible for people like myself, who found reading the book heavy going, to appreciate his achievement and enjoy his humour. I look forward to other Irish language literary masterpieces being made accessible in the same way.

I am not directing a barb (sáiteán) at anyone here on this site because by definition everyone here is on the same side. We are all trying to get to grips with Irish in some way, each of us in our own way. We each have our views and contributions to make. We bring a drop of oil to the lamp that is the Irish language in our time. We benefit from each other and are stimulated by the comments and discussion on DALTAÍ.COM

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Here. You're saying that speaking to someone with worse Irish won't improve your own (and is by implication a waste of time, possibly even a setback.) I say it will, has and does.

Probably what I said wasn't clear enough, sorry. What I meant is that you wouldn't learn much by hearing the Irish spoken by a neonative speaker. Of course your Irish may improve because you use it (with anybody, even if you talk Irish to your cat), but you won't learn much by hearing "Neo-Irish", because most of the time it is full of mistakes and it is badly pronounced.

Teifeach : there's a difference between a Gaeltacht speaker who'd make a mistake from time to time, and an neo-native speaker who can't make a sentence without a mistake in it (and translates English word for word, and so on).

By the way, making mistakes is the way you learn, ok, *given* someone tells you sometime you made a mistake. If you make always the same mistakes and nobody ever tells you, you'll make them again and again, and it will become harder and harder to get rid of them, as every bad habit...

I think Lughaidh makes a valid point.
It's good to talk to fluent native speakers whenever possible, and try to imitate their speech.

One further comment: "neo-native" speakers certainly vary in their ability to speak and pronounce Irish but the range is from 100% excellence to 100% inaccuracy. Since no one using Irish regularly could be that bad -- 100% inaccurate -- most of the "neo-native" speakers have got some aspects of the language right. Many have got most of the essentials right. All have grasped the most essential point of all: use it or lose it. Those mothers who use it cois cliabháin are unsung saints and should be rewarded, praised, and celebrated when it is discovered that their children speak Irish. The more they can be encouraged to give that gift to their children the better.

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A157wv/nuacht24isdeanai/resources/index.htm?refe rrerUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yudu.com%2Fitem%2Fdetails%2F41004%2Fnuacht24-is-deanai- Uasd--t---Fedit_mode%3Don

Article on above subject

On p. 4-5.

Same writer on similar subject ...

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A13z6j/CmhadcainteoirGaeilg/resources/index.htm? referrerUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yudu.com%2Fitem%2Fdetails%2F34991%2FC---mh--ad-cain teoir---Gaeilge-a-bhfuil-againn-sna-S---Chontae-i-2009-

My attitude to learning Irish is that I want to speak Irish as close as a native Gaeltacht speaker would. I try to prononce things in their dialect, I do this by listening to native speakers on Raidió na Gaeltachta, Taisce Focal, listening to John Ghráinne agus so on.

I think native speakers should be the module to follow.

I agree with you, Trigger. Certainly native speakers are the model to follow for pronunciation and some idiom. Unfortunately just as English in Dublin ranges from that of the Trinity toffs to "d aul' wans from d fla's" so also does the Irish heard in the Gaeltacht, especially among the younger residents. Some Gaeltacht residents are recreating the language beautifully -- I am thinking of the writer Pádraig Ó Cíobháin -- but others couldn't be bothered resisting the influence of English and their "Irish", God help us, is barely recognisable as such. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of youngsters are learning a distilled version of Irish and picking up whatever dialect their teacher happens to speak and that is the dominant Irish in Ireland today. All the political leaders speak it -- and quite well. It earns them respect and admiration. There are a few native speakers in politics: Seán Ó Neachtain, Dinny, Pat the Cope, Mary Cochlan, and Breandán Mac Gearailt. Opposition parties occasionally home in on Mary Cochlan's command of English failing to admit that her command of Irish is better by far than that of most of the others.

Incidentally I never heard of Taisce Focal (OK. I'll look it up.) and who is John Ghráinne? Seán Ó Gráinne from Ballinrobe? A neo-native speaker like meself! To be fair he is one of the best, a brilliant Irish speaker and a great actor. Dedicated to the cause.

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Incidentally I never heard of Taisce Focal

Its a book with loads of stories with a CD and native speakers from Northwestern Donegal reading them, and the idiom in the stories are underlined in blue and down the bottom of the page it has the translation of it.

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and who is John Ghráinne?

John Ghráinne is a native speaker from Northwestern Donegal (Rann na Feirste).

Heres him talking:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/education/ceanndubhrann/index.sh tml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/education/ceanndubhrann/page03.s html

Here is his book where he tells his life story, there is a CD so you can read and listen at the same time same as Taisce Focal there is a dictionary in the back too with English translation of words used in his dialact.
http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=5531

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The term neo native Irish speaker belittles the amazing efforts of people in the Galltacht raising Irish speaking children.

No point in becoming discouraged by categorization mania. Gaeilgeoirí are, by definition, non-native speakers who have a mountain to climb, or rather, who choose to climb a mountain. And it's good to have a generous quantity of robust optimism in the rucksack.

Like any good mountain climber, you use the top of the mountain as your point of orientation as regards where you should ideally be heading for. And if it's not allowed you to go up to the very top, at least you will be going higher and higher, getting better and better, better than you ever were before. (I'm leaving out the bit about the Promised Land for the moment, just in case you were getting worried.)

(Message edited by ormondo on March 24, 2009)

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There are a few native speakers in politics: Seán Ó Neachtain, Dinny, Pat the Cope, Mary Cochlan, and Breandán Mac Gearailt. Opposition parties occasionally home in on Mary Cochlan's command of English failing to admit that her command of Irish is better by far than that of most of the others.

Mary Coughlan of Fianna Fáil or someone else?

Another native Irish speaker in politics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wu-kxs0-G8&feature=channel_page

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I think native speakers should be the module to follow.

In all other languages, the model to follow is the speech of native speakers (do you know learning stuff that is recorded by non-native speakers in other languages?).
For some reason, there are people who don't think so about Irish. I don't know why Irish would be different!


About John Ghráinne, I just want to add that he is a well-known seanchaí, not the average native speaker. He knows loads of traditional stories, songs, and words and idioms that most other speakers have forgot now. He's one of these speakers that you almost learn one new idiom or word in every sentence they say... You could say he's a supernativespeaker.

It's a numbers game, Lughaidh. Native speakers are a minority of Irish speakers. They are spread so thin now.

Because of State policies, it was inevitable that many teachers were not going to have native Irish. It would be unreasonable to expect it. The Irish Free State was blind to the fact that only a couple thousand teachers in 1922 were actually competent speakers. In fact, only 1,107 were certified in the whole country in 1922!
Think about the legacy of the National Schools system. The 'murder machine' as Patrick Pearse called it.
Yet the policy of compulsion was pushed through anyway. The number of teachers certified to teach through Irish eventually rose to 9,000 by the 1940s and represented around two-thirds of the teaching force at the time. A big improvement. But even to this day some Irish teachers lack confidence in the language. Students pick up on this when they are being taught.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 24, 2009)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 24, 2009)

I've read that autobiography 'An Áit A n-Ólann An tUan An Bainne', by John Gráinne Ó Duibheannaigh. There is an accompanying CD-ROM of him reading the book as published by Cló na Seaneaglaise in 2008. It is a must for people who are particularly keen to pick up a Northern dialect and accent, but anyone who reads and/or listens to Irish will enjoy it.

Just to provide balance there is another fine book called 'Leabhar Mhaidhc Dháith' which is not a biography but a collection of stories, pishogues, songs and accounts of the old farming and fishing days in Rinn Ua gCuanach the little Gaeltacht region of West Waterford, and which was revised and re-published a few years ago by An Sagart together with two CDs of interviews with Maidhc himself. Also very enjoyable for native or neo-native speakers and others, listening to the Munster Irish. Which leads me to ask if there is a similar book and CD containing Connacht Irish?

Seanfhear

Yup, there is a book called 'Bróga Páipéir agus Stocaí Bainne Ramhair' by Mícheál Breathnach that comes with a CD of some of the folk-tales in the book.

Danny2007: Mary Coughlan of Fianna Fáil. The Irish version of her name Máire Ní Chochláin was in my mind.

Trigger: Gráinne Nic Géidigh is indeed a fine native speaker of Irish. I wasn't aware that such material was available on YouTube.

Danny2007: I can't say I agree with the implications of your reference to "compulsion". I came through my schooling during the 1940s and 1950s as did my two older siblings in the 1930s and 1940s and we still speak Irish to each other. It was the best thing ever happened in our family allowing us to fill in the huge gaps in our mother's smattering of Irish. We learnt the grammar and vocabulary and got to appreciate the literature.

It is true that not all Primary teachers had (have) sufficient fluency in the language to teach it well. Nevertheless hundreds of thousands of fluent Irish speakers owe their knowledge of Irish to the education they received in school.

In secondary school gifted pupils find no difficulty in learning the language if they make the effort and have a good teacher but that applies to French and German and other subjects as well.

Rather than imply that insisting that Irish be taught to all Irish children was a bad thing I would prefer if pressure could be brought to bear on the Department of Education to improve the teaching of Irish in the schools and provide inservice support for those in the front line.

I sometimes imagine the Irish Dept of Ed & Science takes its cue from similar Departments in other "English speaking" countries -- the US, Britain, Australia, New Zealand -- and follows their lead. Unfortunately none of them are trying to revive and re-instate an autochthonous language that had been suppressed, ridiculed, and eradicated from all official domains and from most homes prior to the foundation of the Irish Free State. Canada promotes French which is one of the top colonial languages in the world. Not having any precedent elsewhere in the English-speaking world for such a situation the DES neglects Irish. They left one book, Peig, on the Leaving Cert Syllabus for over 50 years. Irish is the Cinderella subject in Irish schools. Some schools would be glad to be rid of it.

When it comes to promotion of its own language Ireland has achieved much on its own within the English-speaking world despite the overwhelming force of Anglicisation militating against the use and learning of Irish. The fact that 1.5 million people now indicate some knowledge of Irish is dramatically significant. That figure is growing from census to census. Add to it the many tens of thousands who, having been educated in Ireland, emigrated and now live abroad. I know that few of those can really be claimed as fluent Irish speakers but nevertheless the increasing numbers recorded each census are indicative of support for the language.

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Native speakers are a minority of Irish speakers.

Native speakers are a minority of English speakers in the world. And still, the native speakers of English are the model to follow for those who wanna learn English. So why would it be different for Irish?

My opinion is this : those who want "bad Irish" to be accepted just as Gaeltacht Irish, are just people who are too lazy to learn proper Irish. It's much more easy to accept every mistake and to say it's alright, than to learn the rules and sounds of the language. And once again, that doesn't happen with other languages. Nobody would say bad English (as spoken by beginners) is alright and that it may be taught and used in the media, for example.

Actually, Lughaidh, among native speakers of English, usually only educated speakers are truly acceptable models, unless you are interested in particular dialects or subcultures. In fact, some educated non-native speakers of English are better linguistic models than the majority of uneducated native speakers.

With regard to Irish, there are also recordings of native speakers that might better be avoided or are at best only partially useable as references, recordings of old men and women with few teeth left tend to be slurred and almost unintelligible, for instance. To mimic the phonemes of such people too closely would also be a mistake.

A non-native speaker such as yourself, on the other hand, who is careful to adopt the right phonemes and idioms might be a better linguistic model of good Irish than a lot of poorly educated native speakers.

The fact is, though, as Abigail says, it does no harm to a person's language learning to speak to all speakers, native and non-native. People have an inate ability to select linguisitic role models and filter out the influence of poorer speakers in their native language. That ability becomes available in second languages once a person achieves a certain "critical mass" of core knowledge about the language.

In other words, the better you get at a language the easier it becomes to recognize the better sources, irrespective of whether they are native or not.

Pwyll you are starting to sound like an Ethnic cleansing machine for the Irish Language, as for comparing it to English , dont you think that we have enough troubles without complicating things even more , i cant imagine the Language Surviving another 10 years if we were All to adopt your attitude of Perfect Gaeilge Speakers , Amazing that you can sit in another Country and imaginge that you are even remotely in touch with what is going on in Ireland Regarding the Irish Language and the Amazing hard work that is involved , in Many cases Voluntarilly , yet you sit in front of Books and Listen to CD's , And then you wonder why you are still as outta touch with what is going on as i am with what is Happening in France. Your Pessimism is only udoing years of hard work by Actual people who work in the Sector.i await you Optimistic Thoughts , But i will Not hold my breath.

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Danny2007: Mary Coughlan of Fianna Fáil.

Interesting. I had not heard that.

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Danny2007: I can't say I agree with the implications of your reference to "compulsion". I came through my schooling during the 1940s and 1950s as did my two older siblings in the 1930s and 1940s and we still speak Irish to each other. It was the best thing ever happened in our family allowing us to fill in the huge gaps in our mother's smattering of Irish. We learnt the grammar and vocabulary and got to appreciate the literature.

Why " " around the word compulsion? It was compulsory. It was mandatory to achieve a pass in all state examinations. Passing an Irish exam was compulsory for entry into the civil service until 1974. As Donncha Ó hÉallaithe said: "In the 1970s recruitment policy in the civil service went from a position where Irish was compulsory for everybody to Irish being compulsory for nobody."
http://anghaeltacht.net/ctg/altveritas.htm

I agree with his view that it would have better to have reserved a certain percentage of jobs in the civil service for those with a proven ability to speak (and write) Irish well, instead of a blanket requirement.

As far as the schools go, in February 1922 it was stipulated that Irish be taught or used as a medium of instruction in ALL primary schools for no less than one hour per day. The problem with this, as I alluded to earlier, was that very few of the lay teachers had Irish in 1922. Only 1,107 were certified at that time but there were over 22,000 teachers in the country! How is one supposed to teach children in a language they can't speak? This was 1922. Very few people outside of native speakers had Irish. Even Cathal Brugha (joined Conradh na Gaeilge in 1899, killed in 1922) said that only about 5% of Gaelic Leaguers became fluent in Irish. Many were just there for the craic.

It's good that you and your siblings still speak Irish and I acknowledge that you and many others owe your knowledge of Irish to the school system. For many, it was their first introduction to the language. But the inescapable point is that most students left school with a poor level of Irish. Many still do. This isn't surprising. I too hope the whole way of teaching is revolutionised and made more effective (and more enjoyable) for students.

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It is true that not all Primary teachers had (have) sufficient fluency in the language to teach it well. Nevertheless hundreds of thousands of fluent Irish speakers owe their knowledge of Irish to the education they received in school.

It wasn't a case of 'not all teachers'. In 1922 it was 'very few' who had sufficient fluency to teach it period. I'm not opposed to Irish being taught to Irish students. I just think the Free State made a grave error by stating that Irish be the medium of instruction for at least one hour each day when it should have been obvious that most teachers simply weren't capable of doing it at the time. They made no distinction between the Gaeltacht and Galltacht it seems. No distinction between areas like south Wexford and Wicklow which had been mostly English speaking for centuries and places like south Conamara and west Kerry where most of the older people (60+) had no English at all! They made little effort to stem the tide of emigration which saw over 50% of native speakers in Gaeltacht areas leave the country in the 1950s. Most residents were subsistence farmers. A language policy which recognised the specific needs of the Gaeltacht from the start would have been much more effective, in my opinion. Such as making Irish the sole language of administration in Gaeltacht areas. It's a moot point now of course and it's unfortunate how things turned out. Of course, these things aren't necessarily irreversible!

There are other examples or the shortsighted policies of the Free State gov in its earliest years. Ernest Blythe wanted all forms used within the Department of Finance to be in Irish only. Even though most of the staff couldn't speak Irish! Imagine having people sign off on forms which they might not understand. Forms which might be authorising large payments.

Or the fact that people from a working-class background were required to pass Irish at post-primary level (Vocational schools) so that they could enter into apprenticeships. Few could afford the fees for secondary school at that time. This engendered much resentment.

When you refer to hundreds of thousands of fluent Irish speakers, are you referring to the people who have come out of the education system over the past eighty plus years or those alive right now? I'd agree that there are probably 100,000-150,000 fluent Irish speakers alive today, but not many hundreds of thousands. I've seen nor heard any evidence of that.

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When it comes to promotion of its own language Ireland has achieved much on its own within the English-speaking world despite the overwhelming force of Anglicisation militating against the use and learning of Irish. The fact that 1.5 million people now indicate some knowledge of Irish is dramatically significant. That figure is growing from census to census. Add to it the many tens of thousands who, having been educated in Ireland, emigrated and now live abroad. I know that few of those can really be claimed as fluent Irish speakers but nevertheless the increasing numbers recorded each census are indicative of support for the language.

This is due to the compulsory status of Irish. I agree that there is a fairly significant level of support for the language but it rarely extends to people actually speaking it habitually for some reason. As every census indicates.

In short, I believe unrealistic expectations, a lack of resources and shortsighted policies based on idealism have squandered the opportunities which existed for the new Irish Free State in 1922 in terms of language maintenance. A lot of goodwill was lost as a result.

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The charade of Irish language tests for public employment when everyone knew the language would hardly ever be used again, the whole fetid system of favouritism associated with language knowledge, as distinct from language use, inevitably left its mark, stamping the most idealistic and most important task undertaken by the new state as yet one more sleazy political racket.

- J.J. Lee, 'Ireland 1912-1985: Politics and Society, Cambridge University Press, 1989, pg. 670-72

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It is too easy to blame the state for the failure of the revival. That the state was negligent, unimaginative, authoritarian, obstructive, piecemeal, hostile and downright stupid at times, is beyond question. Even if it had been the opposite of all those things, the revival would have failed because the people in English-speaking communities did not want to revert to Irish. Forcing them to learn Irish as a second language was one thing, but the revival project wanted them to replace English with Irish as well. Why should they? English had become their language, in the same way Irish was still the language of some Gaeltacht areas. To change the language of Kilkerrin in East Galway to Irish would have done as much violence to that community's cultural life as changing the language of Cill Chiaráin in Conamara from Irish to English.

- Donncha Ó hÉallaithe, 'Who Needs Irish: Reflections on the Importance of the Irish Language Today', Veritas, Dublin, 2004, pg. 182

I would argue that the switch for Kilkerrin would have been less 'violent' as that area was likely Irish speaking just a century or so earlier (opposed to some heavily Anglicised areas in east Leinster and east Ulster), whereas Cill Chiaráin remains mostly Irish speaking to this very day. I'm also not convinced that 'people in the English-speaking communities did not want to revert to Irish.' Perhaps if they had been given a better chance of attaining Irish and actually using it to their benefit outside of classrooms, the 'revival project' might have actually met with some success.

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While the official status of the Irish language at the beginning of the twenty-first century is a bit like the position of the worker in the former Soviet Union - high in theory but very low in practice - all is not lost. The retreat of the state from the official policy of reviving or restoring Irish has opened the door to the more realisable project of language maintenance, not just in the Gaeltacht but within minority networks of Irish speakers who wish to use Irish in the family home, at work, at play, for cultural expression and for socialising.

- Ó hÉallaithe, pg. 182

Irish needs more Donncha Ó hÉallaithes. Originally from Tipperary, became fluent and now an activist in Conamara. Not afraid to tell it like it is. More importantly, he's a realist.

Okay, enough quotes.

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A non-native speaker such as yourself, on the other hand, who is careful to adopt the right phonemes and idioms might be a better linguistic model of good Irish than a lot of poorly educated native speakers.

I don't agree with you. I don't think your pronunciation changes a lot, in Irish, whether you're educated or not. Gaeltacht Irish is Gaeltacht Irish and I'm not sure Gaeltacht Irish is taught in schools, even in the Gaeltacht (that's why so few people really write in their dialect, most try to write in the CO, often mixed-up with some local features...). I wonder what a native "bad pronunciation" would be in Irish (except for very young children who don't fully master the language yet). At least I can't think of examples.

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The fact is, though, as Abigail says, it does no harm to a person's language learning to speak to all speakers, native and non-native. People have an inate ability to select linguisitic role models and filter out the influence of poorer speakers in their native language. That ability becomes available in second languages once a person achieves a certain "critical mass" of core knowledge about the language.

I don't agree with you. If it were true, most learners would pronounce Irish properly. And actually, most learners don't. To have a "core knowledge about the language", I think you have to hear much of native Irish so that you're able to know what is correct and what is not. But learners of Irish hear much more bad Irish than native Irish, and given bad Irish is easier to pronounce for English native speakers, they go for it, rather for Gaeltacht Irish, that has so many "foreign" sounds.

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In other words, the better you get at a language the easier it becomes to recognize the better sources, irrespective of whether they are native or not.

There are people who've been learning Irish for decades and who never master the "native sounds"...

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Pwyll you are starting to sound like an Ethnic cleansing machine for the Irish Language,

Please don't insult me. I just don't want Irish to become an English-like gibberish...

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as for comparing it to English , dont you think that we have enough troubles without complicating things even more , i cant imagine the Language Surviving another 10 years if we were All to adopt your attitude of Perfect Gaeilge Speakers , Amazing that you can sit in another Country and imaginge that you are even remotely in touch with what is going on in Ireland Regarding the Irish Language and the Amazing hard work that is involved , in Many cases Voluntarilly , yet you sit in front of Books and Listen to CD's , And then you wonder why you are still as outta touch with what is going on

Please tell me what was wrong in what I wrote.
If you want the language to survive, you have to learn it properly and not being satisfied with basics of grammar, words and then using English idioms and pronunciation and making up everything else. I don't think the language can survive if it becomes nonsense and it if not mastered by most of its learners (and teachers, sometimes).

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Your Pessimism is only udoing years of hard work by Actual people who work in the Sector.i await you Optimistic Thoughts , But i will Not hold my breath.

I won't be optimistic till Irish is taught by people who really master it and till most of the Irish that is heard in the media is proper one.
I read somewhere about what happened in Catalogne (in the Spanish part) : at the first place, many people would speak only Spanish in Catalogne. They began to re-learn it but they had a bad pronunciation etc. People created television channels and radios etc in Catalogne with only native speakers. And thanks to that, learners managed to learn Catalan properly, and now, most Catalan neo-speakers speak it properly. I wonder why they don't do the same in Ireland. There are enough native speakers for TG4 programmes, I think. Considering non-native Irish just as good as Gaeltacht Irish is a terrible mistake. If they continue like that, I think Irish will become nonsense in a couple of decades : grammar won't matter anymore, nor pronunciation, just let everybody talk as they want, it's ok, no conjugations, no initial mutations, no declensions, no distinction between broad and slender, copy the English syntax... and what will remain of Irish? Nothing. No need to teach it anymore, given all mistakes will be acceptable.
You want to say "I am eating" with "Mé is ithe"? No problem !
When everybody's Irish will be like that, will we be able to say that Irish has survived, really?

I am going to retire from this discussion now as I have nothing to contribute other than my own thoughts on the subject and the experience of my own life. I can't compete with Donncha Ó hÉallaithe, Joe Lee et al. Bad and all as the policies of the Free State and its successors may have been -- in the eyes of those hostile to the use of Irish and the teaching of it in schools -- the results were beneficial to the language. Without such promotion at that time Irish would be in a similar state as Scottish Gaidhlig today.

In 1922 when the Union Jack was lowered in Dublin Castle and the Tricolour raised the Free State government took charge of a "nation" composed not only of delighted Nationalists but also of sullen disgruntled supporters of the old regime of British rule. Soon afterwards the Civil War broke out weakening the Nationalists further. I imagine there were any number of hostile critics ready to point out the failures of the new State in its approach to the introduction of Irish into the education system and it would be easy to find virulent attacks on the proficiency of those trying to teach the language. Such a revolutionary policy was bound to evoke hostility. I know that some families with sufficient means sent their children to be educated in England to avoid having to learn Irish. Others however relished the opportunity to learn the language their recently abused and tormented ancestors were forced to abandon. Na Coláistí Ullmhúcháin were an extraordinary success and should not have been discontinued when free education was introduced in the '60s

Some say the Free State policy failed. I believe it succeeded. Those thinking English might be totally replaced were not realists but those thinking Irish might be used in most domains of human existence were right. It is. Establishing use of the language in some domains is a slower process but it is going in the right direction if recent events are anything to go by -- the Good Friday Agreement in the north and the Act and Status etc.

The use of the word "compulsion" echoes the policies of the present Fine Gael party who want to make the study of Irish optional in schools when next they get into power. That party led or supported every heave against the use of Irish in the Civil Service or the requirement to pass Irish in State exams. I disagree with their proposals. I think such a move would be disastrous for Ireland and the language. If they succeed and no matter how they dress it up very few schools will bother to even offer Irish as a subject. The Unionists will find the South of Ireland has become a very congenial place to return to and a "united Ireland" with English only may well result. The effort to promote Irish may in the course of history prove to have been no more than a blip. I hope not.

quote:

I am going to retire from this discussion now as I have nothing to contribute other than my own thoughts on the subject and the experience of my own life.

Why? Your viewpoint and experiences are just as valid as those of Donncha Ó hÉallaithe. He's certainly not hostile to Irish and I hope you aren't suggesting he is. Your post seems to.

quote:

in the eyes of those hostile to the use of Irish and the teaching of it in schools

Are you suggesting that only those hostile to Irish would conclude that the main objectives have not been reached? It's quite clear that the primary objectives of both the Free State gov. and the Gaelic League have not been met.

Seems you'd rather blame southern Unionists than the shortsighted policies of pro-treaty Sinn Féin/Cumann na nGaedhael. Never mind that many Irish speaking parents in the Gaeltacht also criticised the Free State for its heavy emphasis of Irish in the curriculum as well. Have you read the testimony from Coimisiún na Gaeltachta in 1926?

Beyond all that, there simply weren't enough competent Irish teachers in 1922 to carryout such a task. Why weren't the bulk of competent teachers sent to teach in Gaeltacht areas, for example?

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Some say the Free State policy failed. I believe it succeeded.

It has failed thus far. How can it have succeeded when official policy was to 'restore Irish as the general medium of communication' amongst the population?

I have a booklet published 44 years ago. It's entitled Athbheochan na Gaeilge and was released in January, 1965. Fianna Fáil, not surprisingly, were in power. Seán Lemass was the Taoiseach. Éamon de Valera was President.

quote:

The national aim is to restore the Irish language as a general medium of communication. This aim will necessarily take much time and effort to achieve, notwithstanding the present state of knowledge of Irish and the goodwill which people in general feel towards it. All sections of the community must share the responsibility of working for the realisation of this aim. The responsibility cannot be discharged by the Government alone, although Government support is essential. The widespread, but often passive, public sentiment in favour of the language must be transformed into a willingness to make a sustained personal effort to achieve the national aim.

- Athbheochan na Gaeilge/The Restoration of the Irish Language, Arna Fhoilsiú Ag Oifig An tSoláthair, Baile Átha Cliath, Eanáir, 1965, pp. 4-6

quote:

We recognise also that the future of the Irish language and its part in the future of the Irish nation depend, more than anything else, on its continuing in an unbroken tradition as the language of Irish homes. This tradition is the living root from which alone organic growth is possible.

- W.T. Cosgrave, President of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State, to TD Richard Mulcahy, Chairman of the Gaeltacht Commission, 1925.

quote:

Those thinking English might be totally replaced were not realists but those thinking Irish might be used in most domains of human existence were right. It is. Establishing use of the language in some domains is a slower process but it is going in the right direction

The aims in 1922, 1925 and 1965 were much the same. The policy of restoring Irish as the main language wasn't the goal of some fringe group. It was official Government policy for many decades. One of the successes of the 'Irish language revival' is that Irish is used in many domains, as you say. It's the first official language of the Irish State. It's an official, working language of the European Union. It's used by radio stations, TV stations, newspapers, barristers etc. It has more official recognition than ever before. So in that sense, I agree that those who wanted Irish to be used in all domains were right.

But how can the overall restoration project/state policies be deemed a success when the percentage of fluent speakers has declined. The number of native speakers has declined. The Gaeltacht continues to shrink. In my opinion, these truths outweight the positives such as official recognition of Irish and its use in media and print, as well as the fact that over a million people can speak at least some Irish.

Some may find this quote from Douglas Hyde interesting. The first President of Ireland and a founder of the Gaelic League:

quote:

There is no use arguing the advantage of making Irish the language of our newspapers and clubs, because this is and ever shall be an impossiblity; but for several reasons we wish to arrest the language in its downward path, and if we cannot spread it (as I do not believe we very much can), we will at least prevent it from dying out and make sure that those who speak it now, will also transmit it unmodified to their descendents.

- Douglas Hyde, 'A Plea for the Irish Language', 1886

Depending on one's point of view, Hyde was wrong on a couple of points. Irish *IS* the language of certain newspapers and clubs, although not the main one which is perhaps what he was referring to. Has Irish been spread around the country? Perhaps. There are Irish speakers in all 32 counties so perhaps it has.

On the other hand, just five years before that extract was published, the census of 1881 recorded just over 900,000 Irish speakers. The vast majority being native speakers so in that sense the 'downward path' has not been arrested. It has undoubtedly been slowed down, however.

It wasn't until 1893 and the founding of the Gaelic League that someone put forward the radical idea of restoring Irish as the main language of the country once again. That was Eoin Mac Néill who went on to be the first Minister for Education. No wonder the policy of compulsion was pursued.

quote:

The use of the word "compulsion" echoes the policies of the present Fine Gael party who want to make the study of Irish optional in schools when next they get into power. That party led or supported every heave against the use of Irish in the Civil Service or the requirement to pass Irish in State exams

Do you consider compulsion to be a dirty word? It's an apt description, imo. Yes, it's true that the Fine Gael/Labour coalition in 1974 abolished the requirement of getting a pass in Irish in order to pass state examinations. As was the Irish entry requirement for the civil service. This had been an election promise of theirs in 1973. The Minister who announced the changes was himself an Irish speaker. There was little opposition.

In fact, when Fianna Fáil got back into power in 1977 with a huge majority, they failed to restore the Irish requirement even though they had said they would.

I have mixed views about Fine Gael's stance on the compulsory status of Irish. I do believe that it's done with the best of intentions however and welcome the fact that it generated discussion, at the very least. I believe Enda Kenny is a friend of Irish. He seems to speak it rather well too. People are quick to point to those who have fallen in love with Irish after being introduced to it in school, but why no mention of the many who have gone on to despise it because of the way it's taught? Or the widespread apathy towards it? Many more are apathetic than committed speakers.

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I disagree with their proposals. I think such a move would be disastrous for Ireland and the language. If they succeed and no matter how they dress it up very few schools will bother to even offer Irish as a subject.

Why would it be disastrous? State schools aren't exactly pumping out loads of fluent speakers, are they? Gaelscoileanna have done better. We can only speculate whether or not schools would drop Irish altogether. Seems unlikely since Irish is an official language of the State. A total revamp of the system is probably preferable to removing 'compulsory status'. Either way, Irish has been promoted for almost 90 years now. A fresh approach has been needed for awhile now and it seems that that is now well underway!

Well said Taidhgín !

I support compulsory Irish too. In school and the Civil Service.

At the very least every Irish man or woman should be expected to make an effort to learn the language of the country. And any immegrants who want to live here too.

The standard of teaching in the schools need huge improvement too.

In this particular counter-reformation, Lughaidh argues strongly against the casuists. As a relatively recently returned prodigal son, lured in part by the promise linguistic salvation with limited personal sacrifice, I should find myself in fundamental disagreement with him. I have found the mother church to be warm and welcoming and I have happy-clapped with the best of them. No one has spoken about judgement day and I have been coaxed from my shell, participating clumsily in the rituals without fear of rejection. Lughaidh's dry black bread and sugarless tea should hold no attraction for me.

So why is it that, despite my slowly growing competence and confidence in the language, I feel a bit uneasy? I have reached a point where I can traverse Foinse's high wire without Foclóir Póca's safety net. I can listen to Ráidió Na Life (although not always R Na G), I can speak to my children in Irish and I can participate fully in most school events (it's a Gaelscoil). But I also now know enough to see that the Irish I have been accumulating and the way I speak it, is compromised. Native speakers scare the life out of me - those strangled sounds are alien to my ears. I have strolled up into the foothills but I doubt I have the time or facility to take on those Himalayan peaks.

I am committed to improving my Irish but I now see that the road I am on is not leading me to the land of the just and the righteous. Lughaidh, barefoot and bleeding, will go to his eternal reward. I will consume buns at the garden fete.

Lughaidh i am only saying that your approach to Irish is too Militaristic for me!!, you need to relax and chill out , we cant go round every Irish Learner and Irish Teacher like some kind of "Gaeilge Superman" Jumping outta Phone boxes with our Boxers outside our Trousers with a huge "G" Stamped on our Chest.
First and foremost we have to get peoples attention to actually attend classes or develope an interest an in the Language. And then hold that attention till the Long term desire to Become fluent is instilled in them.
And i believe that your Dreams of Rows and Rows of Perfect Irish Speakers is not only unrealistic , but Impossible , as nice as it would be to achieve.
Maybe you need to set up a class , where it starts off with 15 , if you are lucky , and as a few football games and wet Monday nights interrupt , the Numbers gradually fall , and you can be left with maybe 3 , or even having to cancel the cancel the course due to lack of numbers or attendance. Like i say fáilte to the Real World, its Not perfect , but its all we have. And i do have my sights set low so then i wont be dissappoined , but some times i am Pleasantly Supprised, when i meet a few who obviously share the same passion as me to Learn the Language. When you start quoteing Rubbish about tá me ithe , and " Speak to me in English because your pronounchiation isnt quite right isnt only downright insulting and rude but far more harmful than i think you imagine it to be and you are only showing your own lack of knowledge of the Real world that exists over in Ireland and your own lack ok of respect for even the basic of Learners , whom i put above all Gaeltacht Speakers. I guess we have different agendas and different opinons. So i will say that it would be best if we agree to Differ!!!! You Respect those who already have "Perfect Gaeltacht Gaeilge" I would rather find the " Lost Sheep, and teach then a Few words till they find their own Way , Who is Right ,? , Maybe both of Us , Maybe none of us.
( Anyone fer the last few choc ices, Christy Moore lol)
Teifeach

The pieces I blogged argue that the use of Irish is more inportant than the phonemes in terms of the life of the language and that it is better to be a cainteoir dóchas than a cainteoir dúchais who doesnt use the language.

I agree.

In addition, so much of the 'Jailtacht Irish' thing is a complete myth - propagated by people who are frankly less than friendly to Gaeilic.

But at the end of the day, many of us in Ireland still speak Irish irrelevent of what anyone thinks of us.

I am not a native speaker but I am often mistaken as one even by native speakers, my grammar is atrocious but my speech sounds quite unanglicised even in English - leaving me with a thick accent.

I will speak to anyone in Irish no matter what, but if people start saying 'where did you learn?' 'why do you say X' 'you didnt trill the double t there' - I smile say, tífidh mé aríst thú and politely excuse myself.

You are a Man/Woman lol , after my own Croí a chara , sin é go díreach , caint, comhrá , Labhairt , sin an rud is tabhachtaí i mo bharúilse féin ar aon nós.Abair Slán/Goodbye do na daoine ardnosacha agus a leitheid. lol

Teifeach

Thig libh mur rogha rud a dhéanamh agus labhairt mar is mian libh, is cuma liom. Lá tchífidh sibh cé aige 'rabh 'n ceart.

Translation into Neo-Irish (ie. how Irish will be in a few decades if one follows your "everything is OK" attitude) :

Sibh féad déan cad ar bith sibh iarr, agus labhair mar sibh iarr, mé déan ní cúram. Aon lá, sibh toiligh feic cé bhí ceart.

(Pronounced, of course : Shiv fade jane cad air bee shiv ear, aguss lower mar shiv ear, may jane knee coorum. Ayn law, shiv tollig feck kay vee cart).



Ní ardnósach atá mé, ach dáiríre maidir leis an teangaidh.

Just imagine English is a minority language and you're a native speaker of it. Bad English taught in school, bad English spoken by most people in your country, bad English half of the time (or more) on TV and on radio. Would you say it's OK, just because bad English is what is talked by the majority?

It's just the same with Irish now.

One question : if you don't care about Irish grammar, Irish pronunciation and Irish idioms and if you don't care when the language is butchered... why do you learn the language? Are you sure you like it? When something I like is destroyed, I do care.
Mínigí sin domh le mur dtoil mar nach dtuigeam...

(Message edited by Lughaidh on March 26, 2009)

i can see clearly how strongly you feel about this topic , and in some ways it should be appaluded , but i honestly dont think its as bas as you are making out , Unless you are comparing it to your Perfect Irish or Non-at all rule , which of course is Totally ludicrus. i wish you adh mór , but i feel you are gonnna be the one disappointed , as your aspirations for the Language are impossible , Since you think the Horribe Irish is everywhere Tv, Raidió included.I know i care about the Language , what for the life of me "even though i could have pronounced it without the Phoenetics" is what you actually said , i still have this funny notion that you make up words as you go along , so in your world , No one will ever be Correct accept you !!!! its the Bough that never bends that Breaks , so bend a little le do thoil lol

Tá moladh agam dhaoibhse, a chairde. Séard tá ag tastáil uaibh, ainmneachaí dífreáilte a bheith ar chaon rud:

"Gaeilge vs. Gaeilge creole" a mholaimse (an rud a d'fhás ón mBéarla faoi thionchar na Gaeilge: is superstratum í an Ghaeilge).

Tá chuile cheart ag creole a bheith ann agus meas a bheith air ag an bpobal - ar nós aon teanga eile ar dhroim an domhain.

Mar sin, ná bígí ag meascadh an dá rud agus coinnígí an roinnt seo - rud a dhéananns lucht na hAifrice Thiar idir Béarla agus an creole seo acusan:

i pikin dem dey go for i house

vs.

His children are going home

;)

(Message edited by Peter on March 26, 2009)

Lughaidh a chara, your version of 'neo Irish' is hilariously. Why do you see the only possible outcome for Irish to be found at the opposite ends of the spectrum, there's miles of middle ground in between. When millions are speaking the language there will still be dialectual differences and regional accents.. no one will lose out.

Living languages will always changes. Look how different English is now compared to Shakespeare time.

Although Connamara Irish has probely stopped evolving, it's perfect already. :-)

Isn't learning correct pronunciation a fundamental part of learning any language?
Why should it be different with Irish?
Of course beginners aren't going to concentrate on that aspect of the language and that's perfectly acceptable but surely at some stage, sooner or later, as part of the learning process they'll have to get to grips with it.
I found pronunciation difficult at first, especially the infamous "slender r" :) but I've always taken it for granted that learning it is just another part of acquiring the language the same as building vocabulary or learning grammar and I have no difficulty with it today. In fact I find it really noticeable when someone uses "English r's" e.g. "Air-reh" for "Éire".

Is the pronunciation really such an obstacle to learners?
Or if they share the opinion of An Cilleasrach above:

quote:

Native speakers scare the life out of me - those strangled sounds are alien to my ears

why are they attracted to the language in the first place?

There's a difference--both in degree and kind--between the change which takes place when the language is transmitted from one generation of native speakers to another and the change which occurs when an entire community acquires a language through other means. You can see this most clearly in the "revival" of Hebrew. Modern Hebrew is not simply Biblical (or even Mediaeval) Hebrew with a few new words added. The grammar has been entirely restructured under the influence of the early settlers' mother tongues (particularly Yiddish). For instance, where once their was verbal aspect, there is now a Standard Average European tense system. (The perfect aspect has been reclassified as a preterite, the non-perfect reanalysed as a future tense, and a present tense supplied from the former present participle.) There isn't a phoneme left in the standard pronunciation that isn't also present in Standard German. Some linguists even go so far as to classify Modern Hebrew as "a SAE language with Semitic vocabulary".

The distinctive elements of Biblical Hebrew will never be entirely lost since the language still possesses very high prestige due to religious reasons. Unfortunately, I doubt the same can be said for "traditional Irish". We'll still have recordings of the last living seanchaithe, not to mention the works of the Blasket Islanders and others, but they will become increasingly forgotten with time. Perhaps some of the posters are correct that it's a choice between jettisoning everything that makes Irish richly distinctive and losing Irish as a vernacular language entirely; it's not for me to say. But I think it's wrong not to see this for what it is--a tremendous loss--or to suggest that it is inevitable, let alone a "natural" development on a par with the changes from Shakespeare's English to ours.

quote:

Living languages will always changes. Look how different English is now compared to Shakespeare time.

That's absolutely right and with this we can see the difference between Irish and "Neo-Irish" :

English has changed from parents to children for millenia.
Same thing with Gaeltacht Irish.

Now, "Neo-Irish" : is it the result of a transmission from parents to children for millenia? Nope. Those who speak Neo-Irish have learnt it at school (or better said, they were taught more or less proper Irish but didn't mastered it), or from parents who've learnt it at night classes, and so on. Neo-Irish is not the result of the natural evolution of the language through time, from generation to generation. It is not a natural language. In other terms : it is not Irish, it's another language. We may call it Irish Creole, as Peter said.
There's no problem with Creoles, except that it would be a pity that people believe that this Creole *is* Irish (everybody knows that Guadeloupe Creole is not French), and that it would be taught instead of Irish and take the place of Irish everywhere.

Sibh féad déan cad ar bith sibh iarr, agus labhair mar sibh iarr, mé déan ní cúram. Aon lá, sibh toiligh feic cé bhí ceart.

(Pronounced, of course : Shiv fade jane cad air bee shiv ear, aguss lower mar shiv ear, may jane knee coorum. Ayn law, shiv tollig feck kay vee cart).
could you translate this for me Lughaidh ?
and i have never come across Déan , Pronounched Jane , as in a girls Name , is it Munster/Connamara , in Ulster its Pronounched " jan "

A Theifigh, tá leagan "sean-Ghaelach" agat cheana féin:

quote:

Thig libh mur rogha rud a dhéanamh agus labhairt mar is mian libh, is cuma liom. Lá tchífidh sibh cé aige 'rabh 'n ceart.

Gabh mo leithscéal a Dhomhnaillín , i didnt work that one out lol, its a Prediction , any Idea what the Lotto Numbers are for the Weekend Lughaidh lol ,

Teifeach

Lughaidh, you are getting carried away and making extreme statements that are not true:

"Now, "Neo-Irish" : is it the result of a transmission from parents to children for millenia? Nope. Those who speak Neo-Irish have learnt it at school (or better said, they were taught more or less proper Irish but didn't mastered it), or from parents who've learnt it at night classes, and so on. Neo-Irish is not the result of the natural evolution of the language through time, from generation to generation. It is not a natural language. In other terms : it is not Irish, it's another language."

That is nonsense. Balderdash. Ráiméis.

Those who speak Irish -- have been gifted enough to learn it, have been sufficiently motivated by their teachers or their parents to perfect it and use it and seek to transmit it to their children. They are aided in their ambition to improve by such web sites as www.focal.ie and www.acmhainn.ie .

Many of the older generation in the west and south of Ireland apply the pronunciation of Irish to their English and hence find the learning of Irish pronunciation very easy. Irish is not a foreign language in Ireland. It is known. It is being taught and learnt. Listen to radio, television, and other media and you will hear excellent Irish.

Nor is Irish a neglected language that is free to stray into an unintelligible creole language. Government, universities, primary and secondary schools all teach the language. Gaelscoileanna teach all subjects through the medium of Irish. Don't insult those who speak Irish. People in Ireland are not stupid. They will speak good English or good Irish. That is the objective of most people. People who know and speak Irish now are generally well-educated and bright.

Your reductio ad absurdum is just that: absurd.

I suggest that if you intend to make your living teaching Irish or other Celtic languages you keep such non-sensical ideas under wraps.

I appreciate your desire to get people to imitate the best native-speakers but don't get carried away imagining that people will go to the very opposite extreme. The whistle has been blown on such random change in Ireland. We have an Caighdeán Oifigiúil. We have the recommended pronunciation as in An Foclóir Póca and we have descriptions of the various living dialects and of some recently moribund.

According to need people will learn the best of Irish and it will not be very different from that of native speakers today. The topics will be different of course. Instead of fishing, butter-making, turf-cutting, and tatie-hoking in Scotland it will be computer repair, recording for radio, translating for the EU in Brussels, and acting in Ros na Rún on TG4. Different terminology same language.

Come to Ireland, Lughaidh. Meet the people. Speak Irish to them. See how well they pronounce the language. Make friends. You have made your point "Gaeltacht pronunciation, grammar and syntax are important" don't spoil it by going too far. We know that.

"Isn't learning correct pronunciation a fundamental part of learning any language?
Why should it be different with Irish? "


it isn't...as an educator I can tell you that the assumption of students learning any foreign language (especially without 24/7 immersion) is that they will never achieve native-correct-pronunciation. understanding and being understood, being able to read a novel or a newspaper or listen to tv or the radio qualify as the only kind of fluency that matters for someone in that case.

Also, what is meant by "correct pronunciation" or grammar or anything else is the accepted Standard of that language - which may be heavily based on one or two large dialects but completely mimics none.

So in short, Irish is not different...but there seems to be a different standard of "correctness" applied to it.

In addition, Irish is behind the eight-ball when it comes to the fact that 100% of her native speakers are also fluent speakers of the dominant language, and the populations of natives are small (some studies say none are large enough to be self-sustaining) and dwindling at varying speeds depending on the decade.

Once again, compare the english of AD950 with the english of AD1200 - and by Chaucer's time the distinction is even greater. They're like two completely different langauges and all due to foreign influence, yet today it is simply marked as one more stage in the development of the english language and not the creation of neo-english, pidgin english, or some "new" anglo-norman composite langauge.

btw, none of that was to imply that students shouldn't try or that teachers should "settle"...but just that the end result for most people learning a second language will not be perfection...and that Irish is in such a position that anyone devoting the time and energy to learning enough to carry on a conversation is cause for much rejoicing. Nothing kills morale and motivation faster than demeaning years of hard work that yield still-imperfect results

I know many people born elsewhere who have lived in an English-dominant environment for decades and still have a thick accent. It's not unusual.

quote:

Come to Ireland, Lughaidh. Meet the people. Speak Irish to them. See how well they pronounce the language. Make friends. You have made your point "Gaeltacht pronunciation, grammar and syntax are important" don't spoil it by going too far. We know that.

Tógaigí go bog é, a chairde!

Lughaidh is unjustly becoming the target of comments with a touch of the old ad hominem about them.

Let's have some rational discourse!

As a multilingual person who has a strong command of at least three languages Lughaidh knows what it takes when it comes to cultivating a language, be it individually or communally.

Creating good will and encouraging learners at all stages up to the 70% stage is a different aspect altogether. That's all a matter of structuring the learning process into stages and of bringing people sensibly - and, above all, of the people bringing themselves - through the stages. And if you want to achieve in the language-learning field, you are damned to be an autodidact.

Putting the "discouragement misunderstanding" aside, why all the high dudgeon when someone simply states the basic principles of effective language transmission?

I must say that I agree with Lughaidh.

well it is Clear that i disagree with Lughaigh , but isnt that one of the reasons we are here , for the cut and thrust of debate , if you say something , you should be able to back it up , by some sort of reply , and yes of couse as good natured as possible. But i Find the Fact that someone who is Learning Irish , Yet criticise's its very core elements i.e TG4, RnaG , and actual Irish people themselfs to be downright rude. I Myself would never take on the learning of any topic weather it be an instrument,Sport,Language , and then go and attack the whole system. I have Played guitar in bands for years , yet im not gonna go to an Eric Clapton/Rolling Stones concert , and say hey guys tune up, you are outta key, Those songs are rubbish , Maybe i have what is called respect.

Teifeach

quote:

it isn't...as an educator I can tell you that the assumption of students learning any foreign language (especially without 24/7 immersion) is that they will never achieve native-correct-pronunciation. understanding and being understood, being able to read a novel or a newspaper or listen to tv or the radio qualify as the only kind of fluency that matters for someone in that case.

Yes, a perfect accent is rarely achieved by a learner of a foreign language but surely an attempt is made to emulate the pronunciation of native speakers as much as possible. Even if it is amongst the last stages and considered least important.
It seems to me that many learning Irish make no attempt at all, ever. Remember the horrors of Hector! :)
Also, Irish isn't simply a 'foreign language' is our own native tongue.

quote:

Níl mé ag sgríobhadh rud ar bith am i láthair. Leis an fhírinne a rádh níl dóchas agam as
muintir na h-Éireann. Cuid mhór de na daoiní a thuigfeadh sgéal ní thig leo Gaedhilg a léigheamh
nó leabhar a cheannacht. Agus an mhuintir a léigheas Gaedhilg ní bhíonn siad a smaointiughadh
acht ar an teangaidh. Dá mbíodh Shakespeare aca s’é rud a bhéadh siad a’ smaointiughadh ar an
chineál graiméir a bheadh aige.

- Séamus Ó Grianna, December 1927

quote:

I am not writing anything at the moment. To be truthful, I have lost faith in the people of Ireland. A lot of people who could understand a story they cannot
read Irish or afford to buy a book, while those who read Irish only consider the linguistic aspect. If they read Shakespeare they would focus in on the type of grammar he would use.

- Translation of Ó Grianna by A. J. Hughes, in An tUltach, 1985

quote:

“Dublin Irish” as it is (disparagingly) called is the complete opposite. It has many faults as the successor to the native language, but it has one amazing
advantage over Gaeltacht Irish; it nourishes itself from morning to night. It gorges words incessentaly. In that respect not even American slang is as vibrant as it. It is young and hungry, and its only concern is to devour and grow so that it might be suitable as a spouse and presentable to the Men of Ireland.

- Niall Ó Dónaill (the lexicographer), Forbairt na Gaeilge, 1941

(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 26, 2009)

yup i agree , if i walked the Streets of London or New York , no one would be in any doubht i was Irish if they spoke to me , so i just add my Native Ulster tounge too that , Agus tá mé chomh sásta le muc sa chlabar lol and yes i have made and still do and will continue to make mistakes in both Languages , why ? , Who cares , lifes too short lol

Teifeach

I would still argue that one reason many speakers display heavy English influence is not only because some have been taught by non-native speakers, but that some have been taught by FELLOW LEARNERS! This is a legacy of the compulsion policies which are coming under increasing scrutiny. There are simply not enough good Irish teachers to go around.

Add the English dominant media into the mix and you have a recipe for heavy Anglicisms.

Once again, compare the english of AD950 with the english of AD1200 - and by Chaucer's time the distinction is even greater. They're like two completely different langauges and all due to foreign influence

As long as we're exhorting the participants in this debate to eschew "extreme statements", I'd like to take issue with this one. First of all, the problem with comparing English ca. 950 CE and English ca. 1200 is that all we have to go on are written sources, and written sources do not accurately reflect the spoken language. King Alfred's chancellery produced a very prestigious literary language in the 9th century. It may have been a faithful snapshot of the West Saxon vernacular at the time, but that was already a more conservative variety in many ways than the English spoken elsewhere, particularly Northumbria. Moreover, prestige standards always produce some degree of diglossia, so an Old English document of 950 CE will only give hints of linguistic developments over the past century. Similarly, Chaucer didn't write the way he spoke either (unless he habitually spoke in iambic pentametre).

Second, determining the source of linguistic changes is tricky. Claims of "foreign influence" are difficult to prove and so ascribing all of the changes in a given period (particularly one spanning several centuries) is more than a little ill-advised. It's especially dubious to attribute much to the Normans directly, as the constituted an invading force of less than 10,000 in a country with a population of more than a million. They may have commanded the highest ranks of administration, but in a government far less involved in day-to-day affairs than we're accustomed to today; the average English-speaker of 1100 CE had practically no intercourse with them. Moreover, the second greatest phonological change in the sound system of English--the Great Vowel Shift--begins centuries after their conquest and cannot in any plausible way be ascribed to them or any other foreign element in the population. [Note: I'm not implying you made this claim, Antaine, I'm just demonstrating the potential magnitude of internal changes, which should always be kept in mind when searching for causes.]

Now, to bring this back to Irish: Obviously, we live in a very different society from that of mediaeval England. Even if its denizens had been aware of the changes afoot in their speech, there is little they could have conceivably done to stem them or guide their progress. It's a very different story in 21st century Europe. Observers often claim that linguistic development will take its natural course regardless of what the authorities say. I agree with that statement, but only up to a point. After all, I've seen countless spoken varieties wiped out due to the simple expedient of adopting an official language and promoting it through universal public education. My German ancestors spoke Low Saxon, Low Frankish, Mannemerisch, and so forth. If you go back to their cities of origin today, you'll may have some difficulty finding among their relatives fluent speakers of anything besides Standard German.

The fact that Irish is being promoted primarily through the system of education gives the government (and, by extension, the people it represents) an unprecedented degree of influence over the form that the standard will take. Unlike the English peasants of the 12tn century, Irish citizens have access to experts who can tell them how the Irish being acquired differs substantially from the Irish of previous generations. And they can choose to act on this awareness as well, determining what varieties of Irish are propagated and how this is done.

Ní Éireannach mé. Is mór dom a rá cé acu an rogha is fearr dóibh. Ach ní mór dom tabhairt le fios nach ceart a rá ná fuil an rogha san acu.

The scope of this topic is probably too broad not to be a constant source of potential misunderstanding.

For Irish to survive in the middle-term an archipelago of nuclei of near-Gaeltacht-level speakers each surrounded by a penumbra of enthusiasts of various degrees of ability will have to come into existence in the non-Gaeltacht areas.

For example, a town of 5,000 inhabitants would (at some stage in the process) have a nucleus of 350 (all but) perfect speakers. The demands of the Lughaidh-principles at their most rigorous would hold no fears for this group; the contrary would be the case. Ideally, members of this group would be "stationed" at accessible points in everyday life: the cash register, the doctor's surgery, the Gardai. In such a way people would come into natural contact with the language.

Around the core group there would be a larger penumbral group of enthusiasts of various degrees of proficiency, some of whom would advance to eventually become part of the core group.

Thus arranged there would be a natural magnetic pull towards the standard of the core. Gaeltacht-standard Irish would, of course, be the benchmark for the core group. A revival of local dialects where possible - using old recordings - might aid the attainment of a native accent; my premise here is that the English phonetics in some areas might still be such as to facilitate an access to the old dialect.

I believe all this is achievable. One of the preconditions, however, would entail jettisoning some pieces of ballast which have the deceptive appearance of advancing the language and which even Gaeilgeoirí traditionally feel duty-bound to defend, including utopias and egalitarianism in the wrong place.

Once the above depicted system were in place, the language would be in a more secure and stable position and all of the views aired above could be accommodated.

[quote]Is the pronunciation really such an obstacle to learners?
Or if they share the opinion of An Cilleasrach above:

quote:Native speakers scare the life out of me - those strangled sounds are alien to my ears

why are they attracted to the language in the first place?[/quote]

James, it is ridiculous to characterise my statement as an opinion. I was merely expressing how intimidating and inaccessible I find the Grade A language. You appear to be suggesting that I am dismissing the Irish of native speakers. Nothing could be further from the truth. Of course I would love to emulate those speakers. However, and in this I am agreeing with Lughaidh, I am surrounded by the casual welcoming brand of the language that inhabits the environs of Gaelscoileanna and most Dublin language classes. I actually find it very difficult to follow native speakers on the rare occasion I encounter them. With my busy job and (almost) four children, I find it difficult to see how I will get the time to get beyond camp three or four and make a push for the summit. I am acknowledging that I may end up marooned in this slightly debased version of Irish. And although that's kind of sad, I'm getting on with it and doing my best.

Bail ó Dhia oraibh,
Is Gaeilgeoir dúchais mé as Tuaisceart Chonamara,
Tá dhá chineál Gaeilge ann mar a deirimid anseo
Gaeilge Dhúchais agus Gaeilge na Leabhar
Táim lán sásta Gaeilge a labhairt le foghlaimeoirí agus ligeann le go leor botúin más botúin bheaga iad sa chaint.
Ceartaím na daoine nuair a dhéanann siad botún ach tugam moladh dóibh mar ar a laghad tá siad ag déanamh iarracht an teanga a smachtú.
Tá forlámhas an Bhéarla láidir sa chanúint go háirithe sna focail a thosnaionn le CH.... Chuir mé deir na foghlaimeoirí CUR(madra seanfhocal Béarla).Ní bhionn sé éasca acu an blas a bheith ceart sna haimsirí difriúla mar tá difear mór sa bhlas idir
chuirfinn agus cuirfidh , cuireadh , chuirtí
ach séard a chluineann an duine le teanga ó dhúchas
CUR lena chluasa.Níl deis ag daoine sa Ghalltacht an teanga a chleachtú agus níl na muinteoirí sa chóras.Tá an béim ar scríobh na teanga agus éirigh le daoine sna scrúdaithe

(Message edited by mickrua on March 26, 2009)

quote:

Those who speak Irish -- have been gifted enough to learn it, have been sufficiently motivated by their teachers or their parents to perfect it and use it and seek to transmit it to their children.

Aye of course there are people like that in Ireland. But how many?

quote:

They are aided in their ambition to improve by such web sites as www.focal.ie and www.acmhainn.ie .

Do you believe terminological lists are enough to speak Irish properly? One can learn thousands of words by heart but that won't make him speaking Irish...

quote:

Irish is not a foreign language in Ireland.

Ráiméis. Irish is foreign to those who don't speak it. Knowing a language is not a genetic thing! There's an incredible belief in Ireland (I noticed many times), that you are a native speaker of Irish if you are Irish, because Irish is the official language of Ireland. Cool: if I move to Ireland and if I'm granted Irish citizenship, I'll become a native speaker then ?

quote:

It is known.

by some people. But if you want to speak only Irish in your life, never English, you have to live in the Gaeltacht (well, in some Gaeltachtaí...) otherwise most people don't understand you. Quite easy to see when you're there.

quote:

It is being taught and learnt.

Aye, but how many are fluent?

quote:

Listen to radio, television, and other media and you will hear excellent Irish.

Sometimes. That's the problem : normally, in the media, you should hear *only* excellent Irish. So that learners could improve theirs.

quote:

Government, universities, primary and secondary schools all teach the language.

Once again, how many people are fluent in Ireland today? (I mean, really).

quote:

We have the recommended pronunciation as in An Foclóir Póca and we have descriptions of the various living dialects and of some recently moribund.

All specialists do know that there is no standard pronunciation (read the introduction to Learning Irish by Ó Siadhail). What you find in "An Foclóir Póca" is just an attempt, who hasn't been followed by anybody (or almost). I never heard anybody pronouncing according to the pronunciation you find in an Foclóir Póca. There are still nonsensical pronunciations sometimes, like "anois" to be pronounced "anosh" (p 265, have a look)... By the way, who can really read the phonological transcription used in an Foclóir Póca, except some linguists?

quote:

Come to Ireland, Lughaidh. Meet the people.

I lived one year there. I'd like to go back there : give me the money to pay the ferryboat and an accomodation...

quote:

Speak Irish to them.

I did (and still do on Skype and MSN). I would speak with native speakers. Most other people just know cupla focal and didn't understand me (unlike native speakers) so I had to switch to English whenever I had to say more complicated things than "Dé mar atá tú?" or "go rabh maith agad"...

quote:

See how well they pronounce the language.

I just heard a handful of non-native speakers (or neo-native speakers) who'd pronounce the language properly.

quote:

Also, what is meant by "correct pronunciation" or grammar or anything else is the accepted Standard of that language - which may be heavily based on one or two large dialects but completely mimics none.

Not true. The correct pronunciation and grammar are those that are considered correct by most native speakers (same thing in all languages, in a linguistic point of view). Gaeltacht Irish is correct, whatever is accepted by the CO...

quote:

They're like two completely different langauges and all due to foreign influence, yet today it is simply marked as one more stage in the development of the english language and not the creation of neo-english, pidgin english, or some "new" anglo-norman composite langauge.

English has been transmitted from generation to generation by native speakers, without any interruption. Irish has been too... only in the Gaeltacht.

quote:

i Find the Fact that someone who is Learning Irish , Yet criticise's its very core elements i.e TG4, RnaG , and actual Irish people themselfs

That's just the truth! Even if it's hard for you to hear it. Just listen to Gaeltacht speakers and then too most people on TG4, RnaG or outside the Gaeltacht, and you'll hear the difference within a few seconds.
But thanks God, there are still many good speakers on TG4 and RnaG (Áine Ní Churráin, Lillis Ó Laoire, Máirtín Tom Sheáinín...). But it's a pity not all people speak like them on the Irish language media.



If "Neo-Irish" is as good as Gaeltacht Irish, please explain me why so many children have summer classes in the Gaeltacht every summer? And why so many people, even from foreign countries, go to classes in Connemara, Corca Dhuibhne, an Rinn, Gleann Cholm Cille or Gaoth Dobhair, and not to Kilkenny, to Wicklow or to Limerick? Because they know where they'll hear good Irish around them and where they can practise it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t62Jbwj0k6M

Bhí sibh ag labhairt fé neachtanna a baineann feidhm as an Ghaeilge i mheán chumarsáid an pholaitíocht. Ar an ábhar sin. Sa físeán thuas tá Seán Ó Neachtain, deirtear gur ghiolla mór na Gaeil atá ann a labhraíonn ár dteanga amháin i nDáil na hEorpa.

De bharr cad atá roimh an Gaeilgeoir toilteanach nó an léann neamhchleachtach, aontaím gurb é an Gaeil dúchasach a bhunaíonn an caighdeán. Má bhíonn suim agat a bheith i do chainteoir cumasach, ní foláir duit seal a chaitheamh sáite i phobail na Ghaeltachta.

Ach rud atá i gcéill domsa ar na mallaibh, ná go bhfuil sé casta ar gach té an lámh in uachtar a fháil ar an teanga.
Chun shampla a thabhairt daoibh, Maoilios Caimbeul. File clúiteach na hAlban. Ní raibh sé líofa sa Ghaeilge hAlbanach go dtí go raibh sé 26 d'aois! Agus anois tá sé ceann den fhilí hAlbanach is tábhachtaí!

As a very entusiastic new learner to the Irish language I have to say a few things. First it amazes me that with the task of raising up again a beautiful language which has bordered on extinction, its proponents would find a unified purpose to its promotion, instead of divisive opinions which in some cases may very well discourage those who desire to learn it. My first Irish teacher a year ago had great passion for the language but her obvious opinion of the superiority of the Connacht dialect eventually led to undermining her ability to teach. I then resorted to Rosetta Stone, Buntus Cainte, and any recommended sources for my learning. I now have begun a new class with a new teacher. She has been brought up by two native speaking parents from Galway so her dialect is Connacht. However she is a true teacher as she instills a great enthusiasm in learning and without bias points out differences in dialect. I would humbly submit from concern that the Irish language continues, that those who want to debate their opinions designate a post for that purpose. Even if your opinion may be true I belive this manner does more harm than good and discourges the very purpose you may desire.

quote:

I would humbly submit from concern that the Irish language continues, that those who want to debate their opinions designate a post for that purpose.

I've got no idea what you're proposing here. Seems to me we're doing an admirable job of confining the debate to this one thread. If there's anyone not interested in it, they can simply move on to any of the other active threads here or--má thaitneoidh sé leotha--create a new one. Is tábhachtach an plé seo agus is gá go dtarlódh sé.

quote:

those who want to debate their opinions designate a post for that purpose.

That's what we're doing. And I thank Guevara for starting the thread. It's an interesting discussion. It's clear that some people would rather suppress any discussion about Irish which might be 'divisive' or 'controversial' for fear of offending the sensibilities of learners. They'd rather live in a bubble, in other words. If that's the case, I would suggest that perhaps they've chosen the wrong language to learn. Sometimes you need a thicker skin. Irish can be a controversial topic. People outside of Ireland need to be aware of that. In some parts of Ireland, merely speaking it can get you into a bit of trouble. As a minority language which was long suppressed, it carries baggage and faces issues that English or German simply don't.

Rightly or wrongly, these issues aren't going away any time soon. It's inevitable that there will be differing opinions. Healthy debate is a good thing.

As Domhnaillín said, those who aren't interested are under no obligation to join in or even read the responses!

Searlas 7,

You should know that everyone here wants Irish to prosper. There are different viewpoints on how that can be best achieved and how Irish can be promoted most effectively, but at the end of the day, I feel comfortable saying that everybody on this board respects Irish and is fond of it in their own way.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 26, 2009)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 26, 2009)

Ní gá. Ní thiocfaidh aon mhaith as. An mhaith nach bhfuil sa duine a thiocfas chun na Gaeilge, ní féidir a chur ann ina dhiaidh sin. Tá daoine go leor a scríobh ar an snáithe seo agus ar shnáitheanna eile ó am go chéile agus ní fearrde an Ghaeilg iad, beag ná mór. Is cur amú ama agus áise iad. Tagann daoine go leor chuig teanga atá buailte mar go bunúsach, buaileadh sa gcloigeann iad áit éigin. Sin an fáth go bhfanann daoine cearta amach as, sin, agus blaisín den leisce. Rachaidh siadsan san áit a bhfuil an gabhar á róstadh agus an punt le déanamh.

Ta an ceart ar fad agat a Shéarlais. I have posted at least twice on the matter of the opinions sometimes expressed on this site doing more harm than good. This thread is a perfect example. One just doesn't have to come up to par in speed, stór focal, foghraíocht, saibhreas nathanna is fochiallana, blas, réimeanna cainte srl. srl., but one has to come up to an understanding that a personal mission or interest in dialect, grammar, monoglotism at the back of the pub or what ever else, all portray an image which is picked up by those interested passers by and taken on board by them. Ón méid a chonaic mé sa snáithe seo agus ar shnáitheanna eile roimhe seo, tá sé sách soiléir go bhfuil lucht an leatheolais teangan, gramadaí, canúineolaíochta is sochtheangeolaíochta ag reic fúthu is tharstu gan srian, gan mhaith is gan fónamh. Ní fiú, ar laghad a n-eolais, tabhairt faoina gceartú mar níl an mianach iontu faire ná éisteacht, mo léan. An té a reicfeas 'compulsory Irish' mar théarma, a mholfas an 'compulsory Irish' a chaitheamh i gcártaí, - dúnghaois nár féachadh sa tír seo go foil is ea an compulsory Irish, bíodh go ndéantar clabaireacht go leor mar gheall air - ní chuimhneoidh sé go brách gur compulsory English atá á mholadh aige, go díreach a bhfuil ar siúl sa tír seo leis na céadta bliain agus an chéad seo caite san áireamh san. Is cosúil gur cuma faoi chomhchearta teangan. Fágtar ag meatacháin le trácht ar bhriseadh Chath Chinn tSáile agus an compulsory Irish.
Aon duine amháin thuas a lua na coláistí ullmhúcháin; amhail is nach raibh a leithéid ar an bhfód riamh.

Go bunúsach, is mó d'aineolas ná d'eolas a léiríodh sa snáithe trí chéile ón tús, agus cén t-ionadh? I mBéarla atá an chuid is mó de, scriofa ag dream a bhfuil smearaithne acu ar an tír idir Ghaeltacht, iar-Ghaeltacht is Ghalltacht. Bunaíonn a leithéid teoiricí agus fíoraíonn a thaithí de réir a réamhthuairime rómánsaiochta féin. An rud céanna droim ar ais: an chuid is mó de mhuintir na Gaeltachta ar m'aithne a bhog chun na Galltachta, molfaidh siad an áit go hard nimhe as an méid Gaeilge a bhraithid san áit thart timpeall orthu.

An tsiocair a bhí le haon lagar, nó teip, in athréimniú teangan in Éirinn go dtí seo, tá sé le feiceáil i measc focal an tsnáithe seo. Tá sé go smior i roinnt scríbhneoirí, agus níl a fhios acu é. Feicim iad sa saol thart orm. Ní haon mhaith iad le scoil a bhunú, le dream comhrá a choinneáil ag imeacht, le tiomáint go háit ar son eagraíocht deonach. Rachaidh siad siar in do chluais ina dhiaidh sin, sa Samhradh go háirithe, le míniú duit an dóigh le cosa gloine a chur faoi chearca agus an Ghaeilg a chur ar fud an oileáin. Éinne a bhfuil smeadar céille aige, ní chuirfidh sé aon am amú leo.

Dála an scéal, cloisim go bhfuil na Maori i New Zealand ag dul an bóthar céanna anois chun a gcultúr agus a dteanga féin a athbheochain. Tá bailtí beaga agus scoileanna lán-Maori acu agus stáisiún raidió agus TV, nuachtáin , etc. De réir tuairiscí tá rudaí ag dul i bhfeabhas an t-am ar fad.

Seanfhear

Note : please let not anyone take anything I have said as advocating that anyone should apply anything less than the fullness of their vigour towards acquiring the most correct pronouncation possible.

It is just that I believe that purism is a useless ideology for the task before we who would wish the language to prosper.

There are those who would not be prepared to speak to me for example lest I polute their dentals - I have however spoken Irish 'professionally' - more fool them I say.

An Ghaeilg Abú a deirim, I'll speak to anyone.

I have to admitt that I have learned new words and expressions from speakers who speak little Irish.

Is de réir a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

PS, just to really annoy purists - I believe in hybrydising dialects!!! Meowww!

"My teacher in last weeks class basically said that two parents who learnt Irish and raise Irish speaking children that the children are not native Irish speakers but neo-native Irish speakers. "

I'll bet my wage check that Guevara's teacher's children know little Irish whatsoever.

So much purism is pure excuses.

I personally agree that Threads like this Do more harm than good , but that in No way saying that i am against them , as i Do have a choice to read or avoid or participate as i choose. But to be honest its hard as i have a Great Passion for the language , and when i read some of the Nonsense this is Only my opinion , and i am entitled to my opinion as is all who read this and ignore. I just think when you are so negative about this sort of subject and go to such Lenghts to find Fault with Irish, That this just must be the kind of Person you are in Real Life , that you would find fault with any aspect of any topic submited. When it would be far more benefitial to Everyone involved To the Promotion of the Languge if the Praises wer sung , rather than the FAULTS Highhlighted( I aint stupid or Blind , i/we all know that they are there. These Debates Never have and never wil solve them. Why cant you find a good grammar book or Learning Book and delve into that other than ask why is this said like this or Pronounched like that. That is what i call Constructive. Many more times do we have to come on sites and defend Irish to so called Enthusiasts of the Language to the worn out questions of " Is it a Dead Language" Why is Education failing our kids in Learning Irish. Discussion is a Good thing but i have said this before to Danny and Lughaidh , why is it always the same people being Negative . . . If anyone comes on this site with a glimmer of a thought of Learning , with good and just cause , he/she s will turn and run out door thinking if thats the Lovers of the Language" What chance do i have , when the Long term learners are still arguing the basics ,

Teifeach

In the 26 counties only around 10% of the people who can speak Irish regularily do.

In the six counties, more people use the language daily than are actually entirely fluent.

One of the reasons for this is that the ideology of purism has been routed - it is confined to small groups of people who did not speak Irish at home nor support Irish medium schools keening the growth of the language.

Is cuma liom futhu. Rinne siad iad féin a imeallú!

Beatha teanga í a labhairt le páistí, ní a caoineadh chun báis!

A Theifigh

Léigh me do chuid "haigh, is mise Teifeach" ar an mbord eile agus chuir sí áthas mór orm. Thaithin do chur síos agus na freagairtí óna Daltaí eile go mór liom. Cé nach bfhuil ach Gaeilge briste agamsa, bhain mé sult as an comhrá sin. Ná bí beaguchtach as an roinnt ata ar siúil anseo. Níl suim ag roinnt de na sríbhneoirí an Ghaeilge chleactadh, ach tá suim acu bheith ag scríobh faoi i gconaí i mBéarla.

So as not to appear exclusive, I translate my undoubtedly less than perfect neo-Irish above as follows:

I read your piece "haigh is mise Teifeach" on the other board and it delighted me. Your contribution and the responses of the other Daltai pleased me greatly. Even though I have only broken Irish, I greatly enjoyed the discussion. Don't be downhearted by by what's going on here (on this thread). Some of the contributors have no interest in practicing their Irish, arther there interest is in writing about the language in English

quote:

Níl suim ag roinnt de na sríbhneoirí an Ghaeilge chleactadh, ach tá suim acu bheith ag scríobh faoi i gconaí i mBéarla.

Níl sa snáithe ach aon duine amháin gur infheidhme an cúiseamh so air. Cad'na thaobh nach féidir plé béasach a dhéanamh anso agus gan an oiread sin ráiteas scaoilte is ionsaithe ad hominem?

Haigh a Shuaimhneais
Go raibh maith agat a chara as an méid atá ráite agat. Tá a fhios agam féin go bhfuil mé ró-ghoilliúnach( Too Sensitive?) ó thaobh na Gaeilge, ach má tá, is cuma liom. Is daoine diúltacha iad amach is amach iad agus cuireann sé iontais an domhain orm leis an méid atá ráite acu go minic is go rialta. Cé go bhfuil cuid den stuif seo fíor go leor, ní chiallaíonn sé sin go bhfuil sé ceart agus cóir iad a phlé am i ndhiaidh ama. Nach bhfuil scéaltaí maithe amach ansin áit ar bith. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil na droch scéaltaí fíor go leor ach is é mo bharúilse féin nach ndhéanfadh sé maitheas ar bith don teanga nó maitheas do na daoine a bhfuil suim acu leis an teanga a fhoghlaim. Má chluineann siad scéaltaí mar seo achan áit a mbíonn grúpa daoine ann agus daoine ag gearán faoi achan rud faoin spéir, cén cinneál íomhá a bheas acu sa dheireadh.Gan dabht tá fadhbanna againn le Gaeilge ach tá rudaí maithe ann freisin , agus daoine a bhfuil obair den chéad scoth déanta acu , agus leis an fhíorinne a rá nil an t-am acu cuairt a thabhairt ar suíomhanna mar seo , ach dá mbeadh an t-am acu cuairt a thabhairt anseo ó am go ham, sílimse féin ní bheadh siad sásta leis an méid atá le rá ag cuid de na daoine is dócha nach bhfuil meas ar bith acu ar an teanga í féin seachas mar ábhar " Argóintí" agus " Ag caint faoi na sean laethanta" , níl rud ar bith níos tábhachtaí ná an t-am atá ann anois, nó an
t-am le teacht.
Tá súil agam nach bhfuil an piosa ró-trom duitse a chara , agus mura thuigeann rud ar bith , abair liom.

Teifeach

Lughaidh said:

If "Neo-Irish" is as good as Gaeltacht Irish, please explain me why so many children have summer classes in the Gaeltacht every summer? And why so many people, even from foreign countries, go to classes in Connemara, Corca Dhuibhne, an Rinn, Gleann Cholm Cille or Gaoth Dobhair, and not to Kilkenny, to Wicklow or to Limerick? Because they know where they'll hear good Irish around them and where they can practise it...


This is true, however, it is also true that when a person wants to swim they go to a pool, not a bathtub.

Ireland, all of Ireland, still promotes the Gaeltacht as the place where Irish is really spoken now. I can't begin to count the number of sources out there that say something like this "Irish is an Celtic language...Irish is an official language of Ireland...IRISH IS NOT SPOKEN DAILY IN THE MOST PARTS OF IRELAND. IT SURVIVES AS A DAILY LANGUAGE IN SMALL REMOTE POCKETS CALLED GAELTACHTS...." or something to that effect.

So a person wanted to learn, improve, or just see the language being used is not going to concentrate on any place other than the areas that Ireland herself is saying they are going to encounter it.

How many Irish learners from Japan, Russia, Chile, and Canada are you going to recommend Dublin as being the place they need to go to hear and learn the language?

Now I am not saying it can't be done. There are Irish speakers, classes, and chances for people to learn in Dublin. However, if a person seriously wanted to learn the language, would they not have a better chance in the Gaeltacht? Not because the Irish there is better in any quality per se, rather because it is a better learning environment. In this direction, I would agree that the Gaeltacht would be a better place to go.

But not because the quality of the Irish is any better.

quote:

Discussion is a Good thing but i have said this before to Danny and Lughaidh , why is it always the same people being Negative

In fairness Teifeach, I don't share Lughaidh's analysis regarding 'neo native speakers'. In fact I already posted that it's quite common for non-native speakers to retain their own accent many years later. At the same time, they are usually easily understood so I don't see the big deal. That's why I don't agree with Lughaigh fully, although as GGN said, learners should do everything within reason to attain 'correct' pronunciation.

I don't subscribe to the view that someone raised with Irish by a couple of non-native speakers is somehow less 'native' than those raised by two native speakers. In my opinion, they are both native speakers. Period.

Again, I can use the example of people I know. I know many people with parents from places like Germany and China who were born and raised bilingually. English included. Their parents are not native English speakers of course. But their children are by any definition. It would be absurd to claim that they are somehow less of a 'native speaker' than me simply because their parents don't have native English while my parents (and grandparents) do.

I would also draw your attention to the thread I posted just yesterday, Teifeach.
http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/42646.html?1238095606

This is not negative news. It shows that more and more people are using the Irish census forms. The number of people filling out the Irish forms more than DOUBLED in Donegal. It DOUBLED in Mayo. This is positive!

You pretty much say: 'why not pick up a book and delve into that instead of debating'

Who says people aren't doing that as well? Your alternative is to never discuss issues and only focus on learning all the time, it seems.

I'm on Ceacht 121 of Buntús Cainte. I'm on page 29 of Teach Yourself Irish Grammar by Ó Dónaill. Progress has been slow but I'm carrying on.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that these discussions are harmful to Irish. Again I would suggest learners who'd be 'scared off' by such things should reconsider whether Irish is the language for them.

People talk about 'discussing Irish in English'. Guess what? Three books about Irish have been published in English in the past five years!

Who Needs Irish: Reflections on the Importance of the Irish Language Today (Cois Life, 2004)

A New View of the Irish Language (Veritas, 2008)

More Facts About Irish by Helen Ó Murchú
(Coiste na hÉireann den Bhiúró Eorpach, 2008)

These books have nothing to do with grammar. They are about issues such as bilingualism, Irish medium education, immigration, the Gaeltacht, Irish in the Media and Print, Irish speakers worldwide, Placenames and so on. They are designed to get people interested and talking. Have you read any of them Teifeach?

Contributors include Lillis Ó Laoire, Pádraig Ó Riagáin, Alan Titley, Anna Ní Ghallachair, Gabriel Rosenstock, Caoilfhionn Nic Pháidín, Donncha Ó hEallaithe, Kate Fennell, Éilís Ní Dhuibhne and many more.

Irish speakers from different walks of life. Irish writers, poets, linguists, parents raising their kids through Irish in Dublin, a speaker living in County Derry, journalists, historians, singers, teachers etc.

And why would they all be published in English? Because, as Ciarán Mac Murchaidh points out in the Editor's Preface to 'Who Needs Irish?'

quote:

the discussion in English is critically important to the welfare of the Irish language because it is the medium through which everyone is able to follow the arguments. This debate, however, could be so much richer were more people to become involved in it and were more people to realise the extent to which the debate reaches into other areas of concern outside the purely linguistic. 'Who Needs Irish?' is an attempt to enrich the discussion in English by introducing into it the multi-layered approach of the debate taking place in Irish.

I believe these books are also an attempt to counter so much of the crap one encounters in the English language media. The Kevin Myers and DUPs of the world.

It's an acknowledgement that if Irish is to advance, English speakers must be 'recruited'. Irish speakers must emerge from the English speaking ranks. Otherwise it's preaching to the converted.

Daltaí is an ideal place for discussions to occur, as far as the Online realm is concerned. Provided they remain civil and in their own threads. Which is exactly what has happened for this particular discussion. Putting up walls will do no good.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 27, 2009)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 27, 2009)

I cant say too much now Danny as i am going out the Door to host my Monthly Irish Language Quiz. But yeah i saw your Positive post , and im sorry i did mean to comment on it , but it slipped my mind , sorry , and yeas Good work on that effort , More of it le do thoill. And no i aint against discussion on Daltaí , thats the main Crux of the foram , if i am not wrong , if i am I Appologise in advance. As for those books i have to admit to having not read Any of them , but they do look interesting , so maybe sometimne in the Future. "I Always go on about Learning" Yeas i do , cause as important as you think Debating is , I also feel the same about Learning , i guess on that topic we may need to differ or need to debate more , Like i said something i am in no way opposed to as long as its not the same ole tat, and yeas i applaud the fact that this thread has kept a decent approach to Debating these issues , but i think that by now you well know , and i freely admit too it, I anm too sensitive when it comes too Irish , But for that i Make No Appologies To No oNE ,,

Ádh mór ort


Teifeach

Danny,

Technically, the fact that non-native speakers bring up a child in language X that they have learned does not make the child a native speaker of language X, unless the child is brought up in a language X environment (he/she is directly exposed to language X). If it is not the case, the kid is still a native speaker but of a language X' - an interlanguage between his/her parents' mother tongue and this target language X.


Má thóigeann tuismitheoirí gasúr le teanga X - teanga nach bhfuil ó dhúchas acab - fásfaidh an gasúr seo aníos ina chainteoir dúchais den teanga X ach é sin i measc na gcainteoirí dúchais den teanga X. Marab 'in é a chás, beidh an gasúr seo ina chainteoir dúchais, ceart go leor, ach ina chainteoir dúchais de theanga X' - sé sin, teanga eile atá idir an teanga dhúchais dhá thuismitheoirí agus an sprioc-theanga X.

(Message edited by Peter on March 27, 2009)

Peter,

The people I'm referring to have been brought up in an English-dominant environment. They have the added benefit of having native ability in two languages.

Teifeach,

I can't blame you for being sensitive about Irish. You do a lot of good work for the language and if I was able to live in Ireland long term (as opposed to two years maximum as was my experience), then I'd hope to do the same. And you're right, the emphasis must be on learning above all else. Admittedly, being so far from Ireland now I find it much more challenging than having discussions i mBeárla.

quote:

Their parents are not native English speakers of course. But their children are by any definition. It would be absurd to claim that they are somehow less of a 'native speaker' than me simply because their parents don't have native English while my parents (and grandparents) do.

It would be absurd to claim this only because they grow up in an environment where the majority of people they interact with are native speakers by a strict definition. When you have a situation where the entire community is made up of people who have not acquired the language from their parents and caregivers in the usual way, then it's a different picture.

Not that I think neo-native Irish is truly comparable to prototypical creoles of the type you find in the Caribbean, but it's true that they both arose in a similar environment: There were true native speakers present, but they were vastly outnumbered by non-native speakers. So when children came to acquire the language, most of their reinforcement came from people who had picked up the language late in life and spoke it non-idiomatically and non-fluently. (The main contrast is that they had no access to formal schooling and spoke deliberately simplified or "pidgin" varieties of the language, whereas neo-native Irish-speakers have the benefits of formal instruction and comprehensive descriptive resources.)

Danny
Admitedly living outside Ireland is of course a major drawback to Learning the Language , but with Sites like this and IGFT , and all the other Irish based sites , you can do as i have done here at home and build up a circle of Gaeilge friends , and work off one another as often as you can , by Chatting on line , sending Private messages or emails. I know i am lucky that i can speak Irish every day if i choose and my nearest Gaeltacht( Gaoth Dobhair , and the surrounding areas, are only over an hour from me , so on a good summer day i can drive there and enjoy the day and return home or book in for the night. Like i have said i find this site deal with more heaavier topics than IGFT and with probably more written Irish , whereas IGFT does mosly Translations of all sorts , but Myself Personally i find flitting between the two of them to be perfect for me. As i have said i am not against debate as long as its not held up as any yard stick to the Language as it can be at times. Mostly they are only Peoples opinions or at times fact based , and if we all agreed witrh each other what a boring world it would be !!!
I would like to ask you something that i may have asked you before , but maybe during a more heated debate it got lost in translation.
I am where i am with Gaeilge because i was prepared to put myself out there , and i still am ( as even on this site i feel nervous when i post as Gaeilge , because whereas i dont hold myself up in any light to be an expert , do of course not want to look stupid and make silly mistakes in Gaeilge) prepared too. also by asking constantly question after question , one of the best pieces of advice i was given as an adult going back to Learning and basic exams was that " There is No such thing as a stupid Question"
Even though i applaud you for the background work that you do in learning the Language, which i never meant to imply that you or anyone else is Not doing,
How come on this site or even moreso on IGFT, do you seem to use and ask almost no Questions ,That i am aware of,about any of the stuff that you are learning ?

I was not aware of the amazing help that was available when i was learning , i.e these two first class sites, where you can Read,Write, ( And now i would like to invite Anyone and Everyone to a Comhrá that i and afew others organise on Skype , its kind of up in nthe Air at the moment generally as its hard to find a time that suits All participants as it crosses many time Zones , another Testament to Gaeilge, But if you are interested let me know on this post or email me at , and i will go through the details with you, but basically its a free site where you sign up and i add you to a Conversation, Using as much or as Little Gaeilge as you can , it is tricky organising it , but at times it has worked amazingly at times , linking me up with Ben(England) Bríd( An Cearhtú Rua)and at times maybe 6 others as far as America and France. So far we have arranged it on a Thursday Night at 10 ( Irish time) and Monday night( Same time) , but those are flexable , so if you would like to participate or just listen , you are all welcome , what better way to learn the Language that to listen to a Natural conversation) and now Speak and listen , in real time.

Ádh mór oraibh

Teifeach

You make some good points and it's a fair question. I guess part of it is that I've been hesitant to put myself out there. Another is that with Buntús Cainte, it's pretty straightforward in the sense that you're listening to dialogue and mimicking the sounds. There's no grammar involved. Generally when I've had questions, I've posed them to Buntús Cainte study group online. There was a great one in particular on Yahoo! which is now defunct. I'll make a point of posing more Qs here and/or on IGTF. To be honest, I sometimes get discouraged and think 'why bother?'. I can't stay in Ireland. That was my primary motivator before I went to live there for awhile. I knew I'd be staying for at least a year. I knew I'd be attending Oideas Gael (where I asked MANY questions), but after attempts to attain a work permit (allowing me to stay indefinitely) failed, I definitely lost some of the motivation I had had previously. The nearest Irish speaker is probably hundreds (thousands?) of kilometres away, but as you say, there's a whole online community out there. I dunno...

I would like to at least listen in to those Skype convos (I have no mic at the moment) but they are held right in the middle of the day over here.

you would be suprised where and how near an irish speaker always is


and actualy on topic - even native irish speakers aren't perfect

i use this example again and again


mo bhicycle in connamara

Do rothar i gConnamara! (Nach bhfuil?) :D

Níl na cainteoirí dúchais foirfe ach tá a gcuid Gaeilge i bhfad níos fearr ná cuid na mórchodach do na neonatives - mar in achan teangaidh.

Ní hionann cruinneas teangtha agus foclóir. Dá mbeadh, bheadh Béarla na banríona mícheart féin siocair go bhfuil an Béarla lán do dh'fhocla Laidne agus Fraincise leis na céadta.
Úsáideann na cainteoirí dúchais focla Béarla go minic ach nuair a labhrann siad, chan aistreann siad achan abairt n Bhéarla focal ar fhocal. "Smaoiteann siad" i nGaeilg.

Chan é an foclóir atá tábhachtach i dteangaidh, is é atá tábhachtach "spiorad na teangtha" a choinneáilt, sin an ghramadach agus na cora cainte agus an dóigh a gcuirtear na rudaí in úil. Agus an fhuaimníocht - sin an rud is bunúsaí in achan teangaidh.

Haigh Danny
Its a pity it never worked out for you , but the fact that you attend these sites shows that you havent given up altogether , and Sorry but it just appeaped to me as you werea Debataholic lol , but i for one will help you anyway i can as im 100% sure so would anyone from Daltaí or IGFT , even if you aint to keen on Publicly asking questions maybe build up your confidence with small simple things ( If there is such an animal , some of the simple questions are the most complicated lol)or even emailing or sending PM,S to people who you feel comfortable with , just a few sugestions to think about. But apart from that use the bits you have, even greetings and endings to messages , you would be surprised how much that that can make you feel more confident.

Mise le meas

Teifeach

Deir Lughaidh: "Chan é an foclóir atá tábhachtach i dteangaidh, is é atá tábhachtach "spiorad na teangtha" a choinneáilt, sin an ghramadach agus na cora cainte agus an dóigh a gcuirtear na rudaí in úil. Agus an fhuaimníocht - sin an rud is bunúsaí in achan teangaidh."

Aontaím ar fad leat, a Lughaidh.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Lughaidh.

Is maith liom an nath sin "cora cainte" agus bhíos ag smaoineamh le fada sraith a chur suas ar an dtaobh eile den chlaí mar gheall orthusan, taobh na Gaeilge amháin.

I like the reference to "cora cainte" (idioms, turns of phrase) and have been thinking for a while of starting a thread on the other side of the fence -- the Irish-only side -- about them.

it is also important to notice - some of the best speakers of the language often don't come from a gaeltacht and/or weren't native speakers

Some of the content of this thread is very interesting from a linguistic point of view - there's a bit of a pro-am mix in there. It need not necessarily get tangled up in a negative way with other matters.

quote:

some of the best speakers of the language often don't come from a gaeltacht and/or weren't native speakers

The above statement is true when translated to all other languages as well, no doubt.

It goes without saying that a professor of English, a native German, from the university in Hamburg would have a better command of Standard English as regards vocabulary and grammar than a sizable minority of the native speakers in all English-speaking countries without being able to actually speak like a native. So what does that mean? It is worth thinking about.

And you're more likely to come from Wagga Wagga than Baden-Baden if you say "I done after I had went there."

Especially English with its boundless vocabulary is amenable to the erudite. Writers in the broadsheets have a penchant for flaunting their shibboleths of erudition (!) The IT or The Washington Post would be a daunting read for a sizable minority of native English speakers any day of the week.

Germans have constant discussions about grammar when preparing a text in the office, for example, and a sizable minority make quite noticeable mistakes in the written form. People from areas with strong dialects have problems with High German. But all the native speakers can speak the language more naturally than a Professor of German who is a native of another language.

So don't expect all native speakers to be automatically academically brilliant in the native language. They speak the language naturally with all that is thereby entailed.

Two readily definable aspects of "universal" native speech that I have observed, apart from the phonetics etc, are the ability to describe movement and the ability to use, instead of the more formal vocabulary verbs, combinations of small, ordinary words to describe the same thing.

http://garraijohnnymhorgan.blogspot.com/2009/03/igaeilge-agus-na-poilini-teanga. html

ábhartha?

well in the irish context

they also can speak it