Ever since the Ordnance Survey decided to mess up Irish placenames by replacing them, translating or transliterating them to English or otherwise rendering them unintelligible to both Irish and English speakers the issue of restoring the Irish placenames to their rightful spelling has been high on the list of priorities for the healing of the wounds of history in Ireland.

Unfortunately, in my view, the current policy of the Placenames Authority to simplify the spelling and apply An Caighdeán Oifigiúil The Official Standard to placenames is a cause for unease. Obviously I bow to their scholarship and research but wonder if they are not concealing the meaning by abbreviating the placename to the maximum. I wonder is that really necessary.

Are they not going too far by imposing another meaningless word representing Irish in place of the existing meaningless "English" name when a slightly longer Irish name would reveal the meaning and give satisfaction to Irish speakers?

I am thinking of a placename such as Enniscrone in Co Sligo which local Irish speakers called Inis Eiscir Abhann and which is now officially called Inis Crabhann in Irish.

Another is Ballina in Co Mayo which was known locally as Béal Átha an Fheadha (The opening of the ford of the wood) and is now known as Béal an Átha (The opening of the ford) --well perhaps that is not so bad.

Bannow Bay used to be Cuan Bhanbha (The bay of Banba i.e. Ireland) and is now Cuan Bhanú. I'd prefer Cuan Bhanbha. I know ú takes the space of one letter and bha takes that of three. Nevertheless keeping the meaning visible should be a constraint on reducing the spelling to the minimum number of letters.

Then there's the An Daingean / Daingean Uí Chúis / Dingle controversy which could well be replicated in other Gaeltacht "fringe towns" although I know that is quite a different issue.

Some placenames could be restored in the morning such as Cluain Meala Clonmel (The honey meadow) or Ros Cré Roscrea (The patch of [good] earth??) and Uachtar Ard Oughterard (The high plateau??)

Placenames in Irish already accepted without question are Dún Laoghaire, Cóbh, and Port Laoise (although the latter is frequently mispronounced on RTÉ).

Thankfully the "Westminster Downs" and "Cedar Park" syndromes seem to have been abandoned by our "beloved" developers who, even before their money ran out, had finally yielded to local anger and begun to give Irish language names to new housing estates. County Councils could help hem there however by insisting on Irish names, bilingual street signage, and checking the spelling and grammar.

One attempt at Irish by an estate builder I particularly noticed was "Feyerra" out near Sandyford Áth an Ghainimh in Co Dublin. I'll leave it as a dúshlán to someone else to give an Irish version.

One builder told me he had made money in Chicago and called all his building ventures in Ireland after suburbs of that city such as Glendale, Glendale Meadows, etc and River Forest (on top of a hill!) and "Forest Park". I feel sad for the children reared in such banal superficiality when the old rural placenames in the Irish language are so rich, evocative, and poetic, worth studying and worth knowing.

On this thread I wonder would members of our group care to mention Irish placenames that they know and like and discuss the original Irish form and its meaning? I am sure we all know some we could shine a light on and explain. Where did Mamó and Deaideo come from?

It's an interesting subject.

Unfortunately, I've noticed that most people do away with the fada when it comes to Dún Laoghaire or Cóbh. Although the official version is 'Cobh', is it not? And An Cóbh in Irish? Isn't Cobh just a made up gaelicisation of Cove? There are a number of examples like that throughout the country. Although the vast majority are Gaelic in origin.

If I recall correctly, Blanchardstown had no Irish form so they just came up with Baile Bhlainséir. Although I've heard the placename Baile Luindín associated with it so am not sure.

The Anglicisation is so pervasive that even many Irish placenames are bastardised. It's like the fada has ceased to exist in the minds of many Irish people. Dun Chaoin instead of the correct Dún Chaoin etc. It's a pity.

"Obviously I bow to their scholarship and research but"

Are you serious? Gievn their errors, there are obviously not fully professional. There are loads of mistakes (lenition of sp/st etc, using the sound of the phrase in English to 'recreate' the Irish version ('Druim Sean-bho' which is translated as the 'hill of the old cow', despite bo having a genitive form, the Hiberno-English clearly having it as a b. The reason is that it means 'hill of the old huts' and entirly different thing). The same with 'Carraig Alainn' which is supposed to be 'Beautiful Rock' but, if I recall, originally was 'back of Flynn's hill' but by popular etemology in Gaelic speaking times was re analysed. Even so, it sould be 'alainne' as carraig is feminine. (Maybe they would counter than in more northern dialects final unstressed vowels were dropped, or that carraig was masculine (which would be historically odd, given it come from carrag -->carraig).



(Message edited by admin on March 18, 2009)

(Message edited by admin on March 18, 2009)

How exactly does carraig being feminine cause a final "e" to be added to álainn in the nominative singular? I am intrigued...

(Message edited by admin on March 18, 2009)

Baile Bhlainséir is fine by me and by the Irish-medium school that has been thriving there for more than a quarter of a century.

Even though the fada may be ignored by people who don't know Irish it never occurs to them to campaign against the use of Dún Laoghaire or the abbreviated version Dún Laoire (Laoire's Fortress). They show how Ireland's public signage could be made more Irish-friendly without engendering serious opposition.

Regarding Bearn's response, for which I am grateful, there are a few points I'd like to clarify.

I am serious that I bow to the scholarship and research of the Placenames Office. They do brilliant work and are publishing the results of their research on www.logainm.ie If inaccurate versions of placenames appear on signs or if they are mis-spelled that is the fault of the contractor who prepared the sign or of the builder who ordered it or of the County Council official who didn't check the copy correctly and allowed errors to creep in. Errors on roadsigns etc are not the fault of the Placenames Office. They may not even have been consulted. Even if they were their recommendations may not have been accepted. Even if they were accepted the person responsible for ordering the sign may not have had sufficient Irish to copy the name correctly. I'd hesitate to suggest that such people would have such resentment to the use of the language that they would deliberately make a mess of the Irish just to show what a futile task it is to try using it these days.

To give an indication of what can happen. Street names in Dublin city used be in the Sean-chló (the Old Script) and when they rusted and became detached from the wall the bin-men -- refuse personnel -- hygiene operatives -- were instructed to take them down, copy out the lettering, throw away the metal original and submit a request for a new sign based on the old. Most hygiene operatives wouldn't be too hot on the auld Gaeilge and could hardly read the Cló Nua in English never mind the Sean-chló Gaelach. Yet they were expected to transcribe from one to the other. Was it any surprise that signs appeared on walls with numerous errors in the Irish. Carelessness? Hostility? Officials adopting a "take the money and run" approach? Thankfully such carry-on seems to have come to an end and most Irish language Street Signs in Dublin are accurate nowadays. We're growing up.

Regarding Droim Seanbhó "the back of an old cow" -- does that description describe a landscape feature I wonder? Many Irish place names are toponyms based on topographical features. (I looked those words up! :-) The former name some years ago was Droim Sean-bhoth which seemed to refer to "an old shed or booth" but probably was a buille faoi thuairim on someone's part. Droim Seanbhó is correct grammatically.

As for Carraig Álainn that is correct grammatically -- a beautiful rock. It is known as "Carrickallen" in English.

Regarding "Carraig" being feminine that does not affect the adjective beginning with a vowel so again "Carraig Álainn" is fine. If -- by a stretch of imagination -- you needed to put the words "Carraig Álainn" into other numbers and tuisil (cases) you might then come up with "ag briseadh na carraige áille" [> áilne > álainne] or in the plural: "seo iad na carraigeacha áille ..." but you wouldn't want to do that with a placename which -- as far as I know -- behaves like a brand name and remains the same except for initial lenition if appropriate.

Tadhg Mac Dhonnagáin's song about Irish Grammar pokes fun at the overuse of the Tuiseal Ginideach and while it is not used as often as might appear from the Grammars -- i.e. the Tuiseal Ginideach -- it is not quite gone yet.

What are examples of Irish placenames which were never replaced, translated or transliterated?

Carna comes to mind. Right now I can't think of any others. Logainm.ie lists the validated Irish form as Carna but I've seen it spelled Cárna. Only online though.

Other placenames were changed only slightly. For example, Ros Muc. Rosmuck in English. An Fheothanach in the west Kerry Gaeltacht comes close, but it too has an English form. Feohanagh.

quote:

but you wouldn't want to do that with a placename which -- as far as I know -- behaves like a brand name and remains the same

Genitives like "na Gaillimhe" or "na Ceathrún Rua" are quite common.

Lars

Nó fiú's "na Ceathrún Ruaí". Sin ceist an-chasta - bhí mé ag traoiáil greim a fháil ar riail eicínt tráth ach bhí sé cinnte orm é a dhéanamh agus deabhal riail a bhfuair mé ach a leagan féin ag chuile chainteoir.

Cuir i gcás, má tá a fhios ag aon duine "na hUaimíní" in Oileán Gharumna, chuir mé ceist ar chúigear nó seisear as an áit cén Ghaeilge a chuirfidís ar "in the direction of na hUaimíní". Tuigim go maith nach dtugann aistriúchán focal ar fhocal toraidh maith ach go hannamh, pé scéal é, thraoiáil mé é agus séard dúirt siad mar fhearga: "i dtreo na hUaimíní, i dtreo Uaimíní". Más maith is cuimhneach liom é, níor fhreagair aon duine "i dtreo na nUaiminí". Agus an cleas céanna a thraoiáil mé le "Béal an Daignin" - agus "i dtreo Béal an Daignin" a scaoil mo dhuine.

I've always loved the sound of Skeheenarinky in County Tipperary ,although I have yet to visit the place.So I attempted to translate it.My guess is 'Sceachaín a Rincaí':Little Hawthorn of the Dances!

Conjures up an image of people swinging round a maypole in the old Béaltain festivities celebrated in the song 'Thugamar féin an Samhradh linn.'
Now I love it even more so I hope I got it right.

quote:

Skeheenarinky

nó "Skeheenaranky". De réir www.logainm.ie:
Sceichín an Rince

quote:

Nóta mínithe
Sceichín an Rince / Skeheenaranky

Tá baile fearainn Sceichín an Rince suite in iardheisceart Co. Thiobraid Árann ar theorainn Co. Chorcaí. Tá foirmeacha traslitrithe den logainm ar marthain i gcáipéisí stáit a scríobhadh ar dtús sa dara leath den seachtú haois déag, ar nós Skeheencenky (sic) (bliain 1659), Shehin Rinkie (1664), Skehendrincky (1665-6), Skehyrenky (1666-7) agus, ina dhiaidh sin, Skehenerinky (1714). I dtaca le fianaise na Gaeilge de, níor scríobhadh ach foirceann an logainm – raince – le peann luaidhe in Ainmleabhar Paróiste na Suirbhéireachta Ordanáis (paróiste Theampall Toinne, bliain 1840). Scríobh Seán Ó Donnabháin, ar a láimh, an logainm iomlán le dúch ar an leathanach céanna den ainmleabhar, Sceithín a’ raince. Leagan canúnach de rince, ‘dancing, dance’, is ea raince ní foláir, le défhoghar sa siolla tosaigh mar atá fós sa bhfoghraíocht áitiúil. Is é an chiall atá le Sceichín an Rince ná ‘little thorn bush of the dancing’. Sa leabhar The Place-Names of Decies thug an Canónach Pádraig de Paor an míniú a bhí agus atá ag muintir na háite ar bhunús an logainm: ‘The eponymous bush was … the actual dancer, borne for years upon a diminutive floating island in Skeheenrinky pool’. Is foirm dhíspeagtha de sceach é an focal sceichín.

In aiste dar teideal ‘The evidence for dancing in Ireland’ a scríobh Risteard Breatnach in Irisleabhar Chumann Staire agus Seandálaíochta Chorcaí sa bhliain 1955, léirigh an t-údar gurbh iasacht ón mBéarla é an focal Gaeilge r(a)ingce atá faoi chaibidil anseo agus gur i ndán a cumadh timpeall na bliana 1588 a bhí an tsolaoid is sine den fhocal. Thrácht P. W. Joyce thar a thuilleadh samplaí den fhocal céanna i logainmneacha sa chéad imleabhar dá shaothar clúiteach Irish Names of Places. Ní mór amhras a chur in iontaofacht cuid de na samplaí s’aigesean. Ar cheann de na logainmneacha a tharraing sé chuige bhí, Clogharinka i gCo. Chill Chainnigh. Tá solaoid den logainm áirithe seo ar taifead ón mbliain 1560, Cloghraynke. Foirgneamh cloiche, nó ‘caisleán’ is brí le cloch sa chás seo. An amhlaidh go gcruthaíonn an logainm áirithe sin go raibh an focal r(a)ingce / rince seanbhunaithe sa Ghaeilge faoin mbliain réamhluaite 1560? Tugann logainm eile de chuid an chontae chéanna leid dúinn nach féidir an tátal sin a bhaint as. Is é an t-ainm Gaeilge a tugadh ar bhaile fearainn Webbsborough i gCo. Chill Chainnigh ná Baile an rainnce in Ainmleabhar Paróiste na Suirbhéireachta Ordanáis (paróiste Mhaothla, bliain 1838). Tá sampla den logainm sin ar taifead ón mbliain 1398, Ballyfrank agus scríobhadh foirmeacha ar nós Ballinranke (bliain 1584-7) ina dhiaidh sin. Dá bhrí sin, is foirm Ghaelaithe den ainm iasachta Frank atá i ndeireadh an logainm úd ó cheart; rinneadh *Baile an Fhrancaigh (nó Fhraincigh?) de agus athmhíníodh ní ba dhéanaí é mar Baile an Rince.

(Pádraig Ó Cearbhaill)

(Message edited by lars on March 18, 2009)

Is samplaí breátha iad "Ballylickey" agus "Ballinspittle" de ghreann an Shasanaigh. Is maith is eol dúinn cad is brí do "Bhéal Átha Leice" agus do "Bhéal Átha an Spidéil" ach cad a bhíonn ar siúl ag lucht na háiteanna siúd agus iad sna leaganacha Béarla? Agus an bhfuil a fhios ag an sagart paróiste faoi?

Is maith an rud nach bhfuil áit in Éirinn leis an ainm Gaelach "Carraig na Leacan" (nó an bhfuil?)

Agus dá mbeadh, an mbeadh muintir na háite sin go daingean dílis don logainm Carry-on-licking?

"I am thinking of a placename such as Enniscrone in Co Sligo which local Irish speakers called Inis Eiscir Abhann and which is now officially called Inis Crabhann in Irish."


Thug lucht na hathbheochana Inis Eiscir Abhann ar Inis Crabhann.
Thug Gaeil an cheantair Inis Crabhann air. Mar is léir ó chuntas O'Donovan ó 1838.
Thug Giolla Íosa Mór Mac Fhirbhisigh Inis Crabhann air i 1417.
Thug Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh Inis Crabhann air i 1649
(Beirt as Leacan in aice le hInis Crabhann.)

Ach is léir fós gur tugadh Eiscir Abhann ar an eiscir sin ar a bhfuil caisleán Uí Dhubha suite (Caisleán Eascrach Abhann), agus seans gurb as sin a tháinig an mhíthuiscint.

Molaimse an dá leabhair THE IRISH ORDNANCE SURVEY: History, Culture and Memory, le Gillian M Doherty, UCC [Four Courts Press 2004], agus CIVILISING IRELAND: Ordnance Survey 1824-1842, le Stiofán Ó Cadhla, UCC [Irish Academic press 2007]. Cuireann siad obair an OS i gcomhthéacs breá fairsing agus léiríonn siad go bhfuil ceist na logainmneacha an-chasta ar fad.

Seanfhear

Go raibh maith agat, a Sheanfhir. Níorbh eol dom a leithéid a bheith ar fáil. Bhíodh leabhra mar sin á gcur ar fáil i nGaeilge tráth: "Síoladóirí" mar shampla agus ceann eile ar Sheán Ó Donnabháin nach cuimhin liom cé a scrígh.

Maidir le Inis Crabhann v Inis Eiscir Abhann v Inis Eiscreach / Eascrach Abhann b'fhearr liomsa an dá cheann a léireodh brí na hainme (an ainm).

Muna bhfuil rud éigin le tabhairt ag an nGaeilge do dhaoine de bhreis ar an mBéarla ní bhacfaidh siad lena foghlaim. Má cheiltear an bhrí sa Ghaeilge oiread is a cheiltear faoi láthair sa Bhéarla ar éigean is fiú bacaint léi mar Ghaeilge.

Ní aontaím le ró-chaigheánú ná ró-ghiorrú a dhéanamh ar logainmneacha.

Maidir le "Gaeil an cheantair" agus "lucht na hathbheochana" thárlódh nárbh ionann cuspóir dóibh araon. Seans nach raibh léamh, scríobh, ná eolas ar an nGaeilge ag "Gaeil an cheantair" ach iad ar a ndícheall ag foghlaim Béarla agus ag tréigean na teanga.

"Lucht na hAthbheochana" déarfainn go ndearna siad iarradh soiléiriú a dhéanamh ar an logainm agus dóchas acu go n-úsáidfí in athuair í nuair a bheadh Gaeilge á labhairt arís: mar atá againne anseo ar an Idirlíon. :-)

Gan amhras rinne lucht na hathbheochana a míle dícheall soiléiriú a dhéanamh ar an logainm, ach is léir fós go raibh breall orthu maidir leis an logainm seo.
Inis Crabhann a bhí ar an sráidbhaile i gcónaí. Caisleán Eascrach Abhann a bhí ar an gcaisleán i gcónaí.

Maidir le Gaeil an cheantair, bhí siad ar aon fhocal le clann mhic Fhirbhisigh (Gaeil eile an cheantair) agus a leabhair "Leabhar Mór Leacan" agus "Leabhar Buí Leacan"
Inis Crabhann atá, a bhí agus a bheas ar an mbaile.
Níl aon bhunús le "hInis Eiscir Abhainn"

Bíodh, más ea. Go raibh maith agat, a Mhise-fhéin.

maybe i got this site from here not sure but either way its interesting and gives some background in placenames etc. It gives some of the englis equivalents etc but i dont think it gives the exact meaning of the original Irish but some of that you can work out.

http://www.logainm.ie/Do.aspx?parentID=100017&typeID=ABH

niall