Hey folks,

When is the letter 'f' silent?

Is it -always- silent when lenited?

I've seen 'féin' spelled without lenition and pronounced 'hein' - is this normal?

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When is the letter 'f' silent?

When lenited; then always.

quote:

I've seen 'féin' spelled without lenition and pronounced 'hein' - is this normal?

A dialectal variation here, mostly following a consonant ending of the preceding word e.g. liom fhéin.
The song text will probably be written "féin", but the singer will use the particular variation native, or familiar, to him/her.

With song texts not written or printed in recent decades you might find "fhéin". Interesting or bewilderingly enough, in these older song texts you will also find unfamiliar versions or mutations of familiar words which fact is due to the simplification of Irish in the modern Standard: the old dative, for example, has nowadays almost completely vanished except in a few words (bróg; i mbróig) and idioms (i leith instead of i leath).

(Message edited by ormondo on February 03, 2009)

I would say (and sometimes write) fhéin.

Foclóir Póca gives /he:n'/ before /f'e:n'/ as a standard pronunciation. I assume they do that because of the prevalence of /he:n'/ over /f'e:n'/, even though /f'e:n'/ would be the pronunciation expected from the spelling. It is just one of those common words in any language with an unexpected pronunciation.

The fhéin spelling in the songs is a mistaken attempt to show that pronunciation /he:n'/ in the song, but it actually results in /e:n'/ as a pronunciation. To represent /he:n'/, they would have been better off using héin or leaving it as féin and explaining the pronunciation elsewhere.

Most native Irish speakers say "héin".
In the linguistic atlas, which has 88 points throughout Ireland :

- people say féin (with an /f'/) in 16 places (12 in Munster, 4 in Connachta)
- people say féinig in 3 places (all in Munster)
- one person says fhéineach (in Goatenbridge, Co. Tipperary)
- people say fhín in 4 places (all in Ulster)

One person hasn't given the answer, and everybody else says "fhéin" (pronounced héin of course), so 63 out of 88 say fhéin.

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everybody else says "fhéin" (pronounced héin of course), so 63 out of 88 say fhéin.

The pronounciation may vary in Munster (/he:n´/, /f´e:n´/, /p´e:n´/) and in Cois Fharraige (/he:n´/ and /p´e:n´/) in different environments.
The pronounciation /p´e:n´/ may occur in forms like "agam féin", "liom féin", etc., i.e. following "m" of prepositional pronouns 1st person.
T. de Bhaldraithe also mentions rare forms like "féineach" and "féineacht" /he:n´əx(t)/ in the book "Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge". (e.g. "dhom féineach(t)")

Lars

(Message edited by lars on February 03, 2009)

What about 'f' word-medially, such as in verb forms like 'bogfaidh mé'? What's the rule for how to pronounce that?

Almost everywhere, the -f- that is in future and conditional endings are pronounced as an h.
And this h devoices the preceding consonant, which means that "bogfaidh mé" will be pronounced "boca mé".

so
bf is pronounced as p
df is pronounced as t
bhf is pronounced as f
mhf is pronounced as f too...

"mhf is pronounced as f too..."

So not only does it devoice preceding consonants, it..denasalizes/spirantizes them as well? If it turns /m/ into /f/ then it's a form of spirantization since /m/ is a nasal stop.

"bhf is pronounced as f"

I thought 'bhf' was pronounced as /w/, as in 'bhfuil'?

"df is pronounced as t"

What about "d'fhoghlaim"

Lughaidh was only talking about the devoicing rules for medial clusters before the future endings (-faidh, -fidh, etc.) and conditional endings (-fadh, -feadh. That is, if the stem of the verb ends in b, d, g, bh, or mh, it will be devoiced to p, t, c, f, and f, respectively, when the future and conditional endings are added due to the "f" in those endings.

The same devoicing occurs when the past particle endings -tha or -the are added to stems ending with b, d, g, bh, or mh, and in some cases the official spelling has been changed to reflect that scríobhtha > scríofa, and in others not fágtha, scuabtha.

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I thought 'bhf' was pronounced as /w/, as in 'bhfuil'?

Only at the beginning of words (eclipsis of /f/ by /v/)
That's something different:
fear -> bhfear: /f´ar/, written fear -> /v´ar/, written bhfear.
scríobh -> scríobhfaidh: /s´c´r´i:v/ + /hə/ = /s´c´r´i:vhə/ -> /s´c´r´i:fə/

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since /m/ is a nasal stop.

But "mh" /v/ is a bilabial fricative.
Unlike "bh" it may nasalize vowels next to it (depending on dialect, perhaps).
And so I guess there should be nasalized vowels next to "mhf" /f/
e.g. snámh /snã:v/, snámhfaidh /snã:fə/

Lars

Sinn Héin seachas Sinn Féin an leagan ceart dá réir, an ea?

Nach 'Muid Héin' a bheadh i mbéal na ndaoine?

Deireann daoini "sinn féin" in aiteacha (go hairid i Mumhain) agus daoini eile "muid féin" (i gConnachta agus in Ultaibh).

Gan amhras, déarfadh an chuid is mo do na cainteoiri Gaeltachta "muid héin", ach déarfai "sinn héin" i gcupla ait do Chuige Mumhain fosta, agus sinn féin, sinn féinig, srl.