I would like to find a pronounciation key for the Irish language, in general, and one for the old Irish names used in the legends and mythic cycles.

Also, I would love to know how to pronounce Cumann na Mban.

Thank you.

"Cumann na Mban"

Yea, now those were real heros, in that mythic age before the Celtic Tiger!

I made a key for Trigger, with pictures and all as a PDF, but Lughaidh said it was wrong, but never offered an explanation. I chose to use the most sounds for the least tongue positions (slender dh, d, g, gh, strong l, strong n, t, c, s) which is what might have thrown him (as he did not know my reasons for the guide -for learning the broad and slender sounds in a few minutes) nor did I directly send it to him.

I can send it to you if you want

Don't know if this is a good idea, I'll probably be PLONKed for posting this... B) but I started out with this:

http://www.standingstones.com/gaelpron.html

This site has its own key, you might want to compare these two.

http://www.daltai.com/key.htm

I must warn that the former one is not very accurate, and it omits some points totally. It only differentiates slender and broad consonants where the difference is great (from the point of view of a non-speaker at least).

Like it says in the text, it may not be the best guide for someone who wants to learn the language, as it is better intended to DJ's etc who may want an approximate pronunciation rather than trying to pronounce stuff the English way.

And to your question about Cumann na Mban... You don't mean "Cumann na mBán"?... If you go by the first guide I suggested, roughly "Kuman na mawn".

Oh, Bhearn was quicker. His guide is good, I have it somewhere... but not on this computer.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on January 19, 2009)

Curiousfinn, I might be wrong but I think it's meant to be Cumann na mBan "The Women's League", not Cumann na mBán "the League of the White (Ones)"

Cumann na mBan /kumən nə man/ "Cumann" rhymes with "woman", the "a" in "na" is like the "a" in "a boy" "a book"; nBan is like "Mun" in "Munster", assuming you are American. (If not, we'll have to think about that last one.)

Be sure to pronounce two "n"s between "Cumann" and "na".

I am not sure how to respond. I tried clicking on the "A's" (upper right corner) to no avail.

Thank you to Curiousfinn for spelling and pronounciation of Cumman na mBán. I took my spelling from a book, The Green Flag, but I know your version looks right. I will check out the sites you gave me. GRMA (I can't pronounce those words, but I know what they mean!)

Is there no key to names for the myths, legends and fairy tales? I feel foolish reading these great works to children when I know I am saying the names incorrectly. So far, none of the pronounciation guides I've seen comes close to decoding the old Irish names.

Thanks to Bearn. I would like that PDF of yours!

Breandán, I am having trouble getting my mouth around those sounds. I have a lot of work to do. GRMA

Don't worry, a Niamh, we all had to start somewhere. ;-)

Is this your first foreign language? If so, you sure picked a doozy!

Breandán,

My family could have passed the baton. They faltered. ;-(

I know some French and Spanish--the easy ones!

Any leads of the key to old Irish names in myth and legend. I really need a jump start in that arena.

GRMA

Breandán,
you don't pronounce the n in 'cumann' and 'ban' differently then?

I'll send you the PDF if I have an address. If you have an email, a sort of throw away one for giving out on the net, then I'll send you.

You probably know this, but just tell me it as "X at y mail dot com" or else those evil bots might skull an address...

"intended to DJ's etc who may want an approximate pronunciation rather than trying to pronounce stuff the English way. "

The sounds on the daltai link are only in English, so I would not use them

Sorry, Bearn, I see what you mean. /kuməN nə man/ would be better. Just grabbed it from Foclóir Póca for a quick standard pronunciation. Also wasn't sure how useful the difference would be in the context.

Would love to see your PDF: ceol AT awyr dot com

That address already collects spam so please include "Brendan" or "Irish" in the subject and it will be filtered into the right place.

Komapseumnida.

Of course you can use use 1 broad n, but there tends to be a diphthong before the nn. I don't think that happens tho in Mayo nor Donegal.

Before I send you the PDF, I made it quick in a few hours, and my IPA codes may not be standard

"awyr" what provider is that? Can you give me their URL so I know what it is?

Oh awyr is not a code. OK I'll send it there

Hi, Bearn. I would expect the diphthong in a stressed syllable like ann /auN/ or /å:N/ but even Ó Siadhail just gives /kuməN/, with the stress on the /kum/, for cumann.

"awyr" is my own domain - just add www in front and com behind. (I haven't updated the site in years.)

I eventually worked it out when I got to your page. Thanks.

Yea, I just prefer the 4 way contrast, it makes it easier, as Munster and the north are generally predicable, but Conemara can go either way

quote:

The sounds on the daltai link are only in English, so I would not use them

And as nobody seems to oppose to using the Standing Stones guide, I take it that it is somewhat better than the Daltai guide???

Well it gives rough approximations which you can always grind down to finer shape, then it explains the basics of lenition and eclipsis, and insertion of spacing vowels if a transition between consonants is difficult... it omits the reduction of unstressed vowels (but I read Munster does a lesser job of that anyway). It doesn't explain the abh/amh/agh/adh based sounds either.

As a word of warning, I myself have been told that their advice of using English R for a slender R is wrong. I've been told to use my Finnish R (the kind of rolled R suggested for broad mode) all through; I've tried to taste the possible tongue positions for slender R, and I have a slight idea, but I'm not sure.

But some other people can probably explain these things better.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on January 19, 2009)

quote:

I made a key for Trigger, with pictures and all as a PDF, but Lughaidh said it was wrong, but never offered an explanation.

I said to Trigger it was partly wrong, I gave him examples of what was wrong while we were talking on MSN, and after I forgot about it (I've got many things to think about) so I didn't know you knew what I told him, so don't blame me if I didn't offer explanations...

Anyway I can tell you what is wrong to me when I've got time and when I get your PDF again (I've not recorded it on my pc).

Beir buaidhe

quote:

Yea, I just prefer the 4 way contrast, it makes it easier, as Munster and the north are generally predicable, but Conemara can go either way

None of my sources (e.g. Ó Cuív, 1968; Ó Siadhail, 1989) make any mention of diphthongisation/lengthening before tense consonants in unstressed syllables, only stressed ones. For instance, in Section 3.4 of Modern Irish ("Syllable lengthening before tense consonants"), Ó Siadhail says: "There are three basic rules of syllable lengthening: (a) a short stressed vowel before a boundary; (b) a short stressed vowel in a word of any shape; (c) a short stressed vowel in a word of two or more syllables."

In The Irish of West Muskerry, Co. Cork, Ó Cuív points out that ann has two realisations depending on whether it is stressed (/'aun/) or unstressed (/un/). In the compound ansan, he gives the pronunciation of this (unstressed) element as /ən/. Although he doesn't include a transcription of cumann, he transcribes the sound identically in such words as annlann [sic] /'aunlən/, olann /'olən/, tugann /'dugən/, etc.

In summary, I can find no basis for asserting that "there tends to be a diphthong before the nn" in cumann. I'd be very interested in seeing a source for that.

Tir_na_nog,

With the pronunciation of different sounds, I think there is one thing that you should train hand-in-hand with it. Understanding the basic initial mutations will, perhaps, aid you on your way, or vice versa. I found great help from learning the logic between the two.

I will now explain some points, some of which I read elsewhere, some of which I have had to figure out myself (although I probably would have found them posted elsewhere in some format) and some of which I have received as replies to my queries. Go raibh maith agat to those who took their time to explain to me! Please correct me if I got something wrong! (BTW Tir_na_nog, I would approximate that as "ga rav mah agat" but it's rather coarse).

You asked for the pronunciation of Cumann na mBan. (Or was it mBán? the accent makes a big difference, pay attention to that!)

There you see a very common initial mutation, eclipsis, where in certain conditions a consonant is replaced with a "softer" one of the same nature. In this case, an M is written before the initial B here, and the B is left unspoken.

Another common mutation is lenition: H will be added after certain initial consonants in certain conditions. This is not exactly aspiration, sometimes it changes the sound drastically.

There's a third type of initial mutation, with many flavors, perhaps you have already run to a phrase with "na hÉireann" in it. In certain cases, a consonant is added before a vowel (and sometimes a non-eclipsis character before another consonant).

I'm getting back to the usual consonant mutations. There are two rules that are easy to remember.

HaLoRaN is an old hardy man who never falters.
Therefore H, L, R, and N are never lenited.

MS HaLoRaN is his sister who's beauty is never shadowed. Therefore M, S, H, L, R and N are never eclipsed.

You will notice that H is here in vain. An initial H only occurs as a mutation to a vowel.

The S.S. guide lists TS as an eclipsis combination. Yet, S does not take eclipsis. This is a rarer occurrence, that is written like eclipsis, spoken like eclipsis, but is not standard eclipsis. It happens only in certain situations which I believe are out of the scope of this posting. S.S. includes it because of the similarity; it is not a grammar guide.

There is a certain logic between the mutations inside two consonant groups.

D and G are lenited to DH and GH respectively. The pronunciation of DH and GH in modern irish has melted together.
- Danmhairgis => Dhanmhairgis
- Gaeilge => Ghaeilge

D and G are both eclipsed by N: ND where the N is spoken, D isn't... NG which is spoken as the NG noise in "king".
- Danmhairgis => nDanmhairgis
- Gaeilge => nGaeilge

Then there's the logic between labial sounds: P, PH, F, FH, B, BH, M, MH

P is lenited to PH, spoken like F
P is eclipsed to BP, spoken like B
F is lenited to FH which is silent
F is eclipsed to BHF, spoken like BH (you could think of leniting the eclipsed P although it's not written like that!)
B is lenited to BH
B is eclipsed to MB, spoken like M
M is lenited to MH

Like with DH/GH, the BH and MH are similar of pronunciation. They will produce a W or V noise depending on the quality of the surrounding vowels.

Note that the eclipsing consonant is always written in lower case, whether the eclipsed character is upper or lower case (however, if you write all in upper case, you don't need to bother making eclipsis lower case).

Also note that while the lenition combinations are spoken the same no matter where in the word they are (pun intended), the eclipsis combinations are interpreted as eclipsis only at the begin of words. In the middle and towards the end they are spoken as consecutive consonants if possible. In some cases, you will almost naturally produce a diminute transition vowel if an unvoiced transition between two consonants proves hard. This is OK and actually preferable in many cases. Look at the example of gnothach in the guide.

You may want to read this grammar guide, it explains most of this much better.
http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm

Now is a good time to point out my mistakes. I know I made some.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on January 20, 2009)

"tends"

And I used the word tends in that way, very loosely. I use 4 l and 4 n sounds as it is simpler -I want to a) do the language justice, b) learn it, c) speak with an acceptable blas. Having the 4 is simpler, not more complex. 3 is fine two, but with 2 it means having to worry about stressed and unstressed syllables, as you said


"Therefore H, L, R, and N are never lenited. "

L and N are not lenited, but their weak version can be substituted, thus acting like lenition (from a grammatical perspective), for example, leabhar [L'aur] vs. mo leabhar [mo laur]; nia [N'i@] vs. mo nia [mo ni@]

It's easy to remember eclipsis -it was originally a nasalization, and so it raises a sound up the 'ladder of sonoracy' (making it more vowel like), and can be gotten by dropping the velum as one says a consonant.

Lenition is the waring away of sounds, making them more hiss like (c --> ch etc)


Lughaidh,
I did not send a message to you on facebook as I'm aware of what your reaction would be (the IPA and positions were wrong). The guide was for to get the most sounds out of the least tongue positions and preferably, ones found in the repertoire of English, rather than a faithful representation of Gaeltacht Irish.

For example, the y in 'yes' [j] gives you slender:
c
d
dh
g
gh
strong l
strong n
pure nasal
s
t

It is very economical in that respect

Damnú orm! I forgot to include gC in the eclipsis and S/T in lenition. But those would be covered in the guide. Anyway,

C lenites to CH, spoken like that on "Loch" or German "ich" (former broad, latter slender)

C eclipses to G...

and now comes something that should have rung my bells last night...

G eclipses into the loNG-liNGering NG nasal (broad/slender again)... and if you aspirate those, you will come very close to broad GH/DH, and perhaps a little dull from the slender.

So again you could think you are eclipsing the lenited C or leniting the eclipsed C, but the back of your mouth should be familiar by now. Through this logic I have found sounds very close to those described to me.

Note that there are no such things as double mutations (not in this sense at least) so in real life you will never lenite anything that has been eclipsed, or vice versa.

quote:

And I used the word tends in that way, very loosely. I use 4 l and 4 n sounds as it is simpler -I want to a) do the language justice, b) learn it, c) speak with an acceptable blas. Having the 4 is simpler, not more complex. 3 is fine two, but with 2 it means having to worry about stressed and unstressed syllables, as you said

Ní thuigim rud atánn tú ag féachaint le rá. Stress is a very salient feature of Irish pronunciation. If you're not paying attention to it, then you're not speaking it with an acceptable accent.

If I heard someone say ['kumˠaunˠ], I wouldn't understand it as cumann but rather cuma ann with a stressed ann. It would make nonsense of the sentence it was in.

Initial stress generally, and attraction of stress to long vowels when appropriate is what I do.

If you want I could put up a recording of my speech to see if the stress is off like you say

Tá an http://www.daltai.com/key.htm
go h-an-mhaith.
Seo leathan math eile.
http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/january/Irish.html#stru
Slán

quote:

For example, the y in 'yes' [j] gives you slender:
c
d
dh
g
gh
strong l
strong n
pure nasal
s
t

It is very economical in that respect

Hum, I don't see the link between [j] and slender c, d, g, strong l, strong n, s and t... and I dunno what pure nasal is... When I read your sentence, I understand that slender c, slender d, slender g etc are all pronounced [j], but I guess it is not what you wanna say... but I really don't know what you meant anyway...

quote:

If I heard someone say ['kumˠaunˠ], I wouldn't understand it as cumann but rather cuma ann with a stressed ann. It would make nonsense of the sentence it was in.

Yeah, should be "cuma ann".
By the way, 'kumˠaunˠ should be phonology, so written between slashes. If you pronounce it as if it were phonetics, you get a word that doesn't sound Irish. A velarised m would have a strange sound.
So: /'kumˠaunˠ/ (but most of the time, people write /'kumaun/) in phonology and something like ['kˠɤmʷɑun̪ˠ] in phonetics.

quote:

By the way, 'kumˠaunˠ should be phonology, so written between slashes.

Nár lige Dia go ndéanfaimis an argóint seo athuair!

Ní féidir argóint a dhéanamh fá dtaobh dó sin. Scríobhtar trascríobh fóineolaíochta eadar slashes, sin an méid.

Ní féidir argóint a dhéanamh faoi toisc gur seo alt creidimh reiligiúnda leat. Dhéineas uair roimhe sin mo dhícheall chun a shoiléiriú duit cad'na thaobh ná aontaím leis agus nílir sásta mo mhíniú a ghlacadh. Fair play duit, ach déan gar dom agus lig de mhionlochtú.

Hum, I don't see the link between [j] and slender c, d, g, strong l, strong n, s and t

The guide is about tricking an English speaking tongue to articulate differently.

If you make a [j] and at the same time try to do a c, you get [c], or so is the idea...

A pure nasal here is just a term I used for /ng'/

quote:

Ní féidir argóint a dhéanamh faoi toisc gur seo alt creidimh reiligiúnda leat.

Léigh seo. Sin reiligiún darb ainm "teangeolaíocht"...

quote:

In order to avoid this confusion based on orthography, phonologists represent phonemes by writing them between two slashes: " / / " (but without the quotes). On the other hand, reference to variations of phonemes or attempts at representing actual speech sounds are usually enclosed by square brackets: " [ ] " (again, without quotes).

as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology

quote:

The guide is about tricking an English speaking tongue to articulate differently.

If you make a [j] and at the same time try to do a c, you get [c], or so is the idea...

Ok, but maybe you should explain that in the guide itself...

quote:

A pure nasal here is just a term I used for /ng'/

/ŋ'/ is not a pure nasal (by the way, what is a "pure nasal"? I've never seen that expression before), it is a palato-velar nasal. It is as nasal as an n or an m.

Lughaidh, your square brackets are just another level of abstraction, it doesn't differ in any substantial way from the //-representation. It is nicely put in the Wiki article you quote:

"reference to variations of phonemes or attempts at representing actual speech sounds ..."

Yes, and precisely 'kumˠaunˠ is not an attempt at representing actual speech sounds. They are phonemes. Cuma ann is not pronounced ['kumˠaunˠ] by anybody (even learners).

"Ok, but maybe you should explain that in the guide itself... "

It was made after a request from Trigger on Facebook. It was a given that that is what you would do with it! It was never intended to be used as a guide for people generally, as they would not read the instructions anyway.

In the context of the sounds 'coming from' [j], 'a pure nasal' was referring to /ŋ'/, but there was no intent to use it within a proper terminological system. I just wrote that perhaps because it suggests nasality more. Remember that the 'ng' distinction has been lost among young people (in Ulster anyway) and is weaking in English in Ireland too. I was once asked for the 'Lonnstone Pub' in Dublin once. I only realized after, we were near the 'Longstone'...

I was just glad I found the tongue position pictures...I had more (and better ones, like for the lips etc) but wiped them by mistake.

Do people say "sinnin" instead of singing, or kinn instead of king ? It's strange if the ng sound disappears in all cases...

No, it seems sporadic (there may be rules to it but I don't know them).

WOW! There are so many spins/variations of every single sound. My head is swimming and wondering: "Will I ever get this language? I want "to get it," and I want to pass it on to my progeny.

Thanks and gratitude go to (in alphabetic order): Bearn, Breandán, Curiousfinn, Domhnailin_breac_na_dtruslog, Eochaill, Lughaidh and Peter.

Does anybody know of any in/from-Ireland grade school texts for learning Irish in sequential (baby) steps?

I am very, very serious about this request!

I have earned five college degrees, but "foreign" language is NOT my forté.

Three things: 1/ My parents could have taught me Irish. They did not! (I am really, really angry about this!!!!!) 2/ I am motivated but, at the same time, I am not learning the Irish language as easily as I thought I might.
3/ I want to be able to really understand the language from the grass roots and to pass it on to my children and beyond.

I think that I must start at the very, very beginning and hope that there are books (for children at grade levels) to support my need to take on this learning--and to foster it in others--in very small, very sure, very sequential baby steps.

"Stress is a very salient feature of Irish pronunciation. If you're not paying attention to it, then you're not speaking it with an acceptable accent."

Well here is a sound sample of me reading from a book. Maybe my stress is all over the place. I'll let ye decide:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/54668630773d773c/

A Thir_na_noig, scríobh tú:

I am motivated but, at the same time, I am not learning the Irish language as easily as I thought I might.

Well, my hopes were first far beyond reality too, but nevertheless I'm making progress. Have faith, fellow gaeilgeoir!

----------------

Well, I feel I may have done a disservice in approaching the stuff from a strange direction, and failing to spoon out the whole context when at it... perhaps as a result making this seem more complicated than it is.

Tir_na_nog, I have said this elsewhere but I'll put it here again where it is easier for you to find it:

The pronunciation guide in Mícheál Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish is excellent. The sound recordings are by native speakers. It is worth getting for that alone.

The course itself is heavy on grammar so I suggest also using a conversation course. I used Buntús Cainte but the new Colloquial Irish is in the same Connemara dialect as Learning Irish.

The latter two are much more gentle in their progression.

(Message edited by breandán on January 25, 2009)

A Lughaidh, ní reiligiún disciplín agus ní dogma comhghnás scolártha. Níl ann ach coinbhinsiún. Teangeolaí is ea mise féin leis agus bíonn feidhm choinbhinsiúin atá beagáinín difriúil agam ná atá agatsa. Glac leis san nó ná glac, cuir ceartúcháin dom chuid fogharscríobh a oiread ba mhian leat ach--led thoil--ná tabhair fios a bhéasa dhom gach uair fé mar nach bheadh ionam ach amaitéarach amaideach.

Más teangeolaí tú, inis domh cá háit a bhfuaimníthear "cuma ann" mar [ˈkumˠaunˠ]...

Domhnaillín,
Rinne mé sampla duit. An bhfuil aon fhadhb leis an bhfuaimbhéim?

Is méanar domsa nach teangeolaí mé.

Maith go leor. Táimid críocnaithe le "Cumann na mBan". Cad faoi "Sliabh na mBan"? An feidir liom mo lámh a cur in san céad focal? ;)

Lughaidh,

You're so insistent on this topic, surely you can explain this:

quote:

/'kumˠaunˠ/ (but most of the time, people write /'kumaun/) in phonology and something like ['kˠɤmʷɑun̪ˠ] in phonetics.

You follow extended IPA, right? Then, your transcription states that the dental nasal is veralised just as your voiceless velar [sic], i.e. you assign the velar a secondary articulation which is by definition its primary place of articulation. The same goes for your labialised [m] which is strictly speaking possible, but rare from the typological perspective (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrernte_language ), and sure enough not found in Irish. BTW, a velarized [m] is no strange sound: you can think of it as of a voiced labio-velar approximant [w] but with a lowered velum and pursed lips (and a visa-versa reference to places of articulation). In fact, this is a sound you find in Irish.

And now compare your phonetic transcription to Domhnaillín's ['kumˠaunˠ].

Of course, if you understand all this, you can make do even without any brackets. Thanks God, linguistics does not end here.

quote:

Then, your transcription states that the dental nasal is veralised just as your voiceless velar [sic], i.e. you assign the velar a secondary articulation which is by definition its primary place of articulation.

Sorry but [kˠɑ] and [kɑ] don't sound the same way, for example. So my velarisation symbol is not superfluous.

quote:

The same goes for your labialised [m] which is strictly speaking possible, but rare from the typological perspective (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrernte_language ), and sure enough not found in Irish.

And how do you transcribe words like buí or maígh if you don't use the labialised symbol ? D. Ó Sé uses it in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne (p.11)

quote:

BTW, a velarized [m] is no strange sound: you can think of it as of a voiced labio-velar approximant [w] but with a lowered velum and pursed lips (and a visa-versa reference to places of articulation). In fact, this is a sound you find in Irish.

w is a labio-velar and broad m is followed by a labio-velar articulation, not only by a velar one since m is bilabial itself.
Pronounce broad t and broad m. Are they velarised the same way? Nope, just because the first one is not bilabial (so no rounded lips) and the second one is... Your lips are rounded when you pronounce a broad bilabial consonant, so rounding + velarisation = w.

quote:

And now compare your phonetic transcription to Domhnaillín's ['kumˠaunˠ].

See above. And think of the [u] too. This is the sound of unstressed ú (ie. shortened) in Donegal Irish. It doesn't appear in "cuma ann" in Modern Irish. Short stressed u is not [u] in that word.

(Message edited by Lughaidh on January 28, 2009)

I can see from your post that you are mixing up secondary articulation and offglides. Ok, secondary articulation takes place on the segment rather than during the transitional part from segment to segment.

quote:

Sorry but [kˠɑ] and [kɑ] don't sound the same way, for example. So my velarisation symbol is not superfluous.

Again, since you follow extended IPA, you should know that this symbol ˠ is used to indicate the secondary articulation of velarisation, which is raising the back of the tongue towards the velum. The only thing that is so special about velar consonants is that they ARE produced by raising the back of the tongue towards the velum.

Ergo, it does not make any sense whatsoever to assign velar consonants the secondary articulation of velarisation, which of course no-one normally does out there. If you suggest that [kˠɑ] and [kɑ] are different then we have to understand your [kɑ] as lacking velar articulation, is it really what you're trying to say?

quote:

And how do you transcribe words like buí or maígh if you don't use the labialised symbol ? D. Ó Sé uses it in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne (p.11)

Again, we're either talking about secondary articulation that takes place on the segment or offglides that occur during the transitional part. I presume here you're refering to the w-ish offglide (although I've never seen the book your quote), rather than labialisation which is, again, a secondary articulation of a consonant. If so, there's a serious flaw in your notation because you show both glides and secondary articulation in one and the same way.

quote:

w is a labio-velar and broad m is followed by a labio-velar articulation, not only by a velar one since m is bilabial itself.

Again, you're mixing up secondary articulation and offglides. The broad [m] is not "followed" by a velar articulation, but rather a velar articulation takes place on [m] parallel to the primary articulation. The fact that there is a rounded offglide following [m] is due to coarticulation with [m] and so has absolutely nothing to do with "labialisation".

quote:

Pronounce broad t and broad m. Are they velarised the same way? Nope, just because the first one is not bilabial (so no rounded lips) and the second one is... Your lips are rounded when you pronounce a broad bilabial consonant, so rounding + velarisation = w.

There ARE velarised in the same way. Velarisation is pretty straightforward - it is a simple articulatory gesture - the dorsum goes up and bingo! The fact that [m] is bilabial does not prevent it from being velarised in just the same way as [t].

quote:

See above. And think of the [u] too. This is the sound of unstressed ú (ie. shortened) in Donegal Irish. It doesn't appear in "cuma ann" in Modern Irish. Short stressed u is not [u] in that word.

Now this u-thingy is a red herring. I'm pointing you to Domhnaillín's transcription because it has none of your fallacies.

Ok, I see what you mean now. You may be right on some points, thanks for drawing my attention to that -- it's by making mistakes that people learn :-)

But then there are things I don't understand.
When I hear a broad m (not followed by a front vowel), I don't hear the same velarised quality as in a broad t or another broad consonant like that.
To me, a broad m is rather a m pronounced with rounded lips. Seems like I hear an extrashort w sound after broad m's (and b's, p's...). And I still don't know how a velarised m would sound.
So I'd like to know more about that. Are there clear recordings of these sounds somewhere?

quote:

If you suggest that [kˠɑ] and [kɑ] are different then we have to understand your [kɑ] as lacking velar articulation, is it really what you're trying to say?

I don't know anymore!. Just when I pronounce French "cas" and Irish "cá" I don't hear the same thing : sounds like the Irish c is more velarised or something. And at the end of a word, a French /k/ doesn't sound like an Irish /k/. However, according to you it's the same [k]. I think the Irish one has something more. So far I tried to indicate that with the velarisation symbol. I dunno if it is right or not, you say it is not, but then how would you write the difference ?


Now, on the u, I'm sure it can't be the sound heard in "cumann" in Irish. Anyway.

About Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, it has been republished and it's available on DIAS website :

http://books.dias.ie/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=8_20

It's a brilliant book.

A Lughaidh

Is there aural support for the Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne? What impresses you so much about it? I tried to find reviews online, but they were all in Gaelilge.

There's no aural support, as far as I know.
I'm impressed because it gives an almost comprehensive description of the dialect (except for vocabulary, not all Corca Dhuibhne words are given of course, since it isn't a dictionary) : grammar and phonology and phonetics.

I read a review from a specialist of that dialect (that was available on a yahoogroup), who also said it was really brilliant, probably one of the best descriptions of an Irish dialect so far.

Now we have "the Irish of Iorras Aithneach", which is brilliant and even more comprehensive (but that has 4 expensive volumes...)

Thanks for that info. If I may, would you know of a general aural resource for that particular dialect?

GMA

Ó Bhéal an Bhab, más taifead de chainteoir dúchais atá uait.

http://www.cic.ie/product.asp?idproduct=269