I've been thinking about trying to learn Irish again. I mean REALLY learn it. As much as I'm interested in the history and development of the language...in sociolinguistics, language shift etc...I think it would be more enriching to speak it above a few token phrases.

That being said, wouldn't the language be better served if learners chose from just one or possibly two dialects? I've nothing against Corca Dhuibhne Irish or the Irish of Múscraí in Cork, Dún Chaocháin in Mayo or Déise Irish in Waterford. But as things stand now, these dialects are not guaranteed to survive even in the medium-term. They are stretched very thin due to the relatively low number of native speakers (now only numbering in the hundreds, in most cases).

As I understand it, the Caighdeán Oifigiúil has a strong Conamara bias. As does the Irish of many in the media. Is it not true that the CO has very, very few Ulster features?

On the other hand, Irish language learning products seem to have a strong Munster and CO bias. Correct me if I'm wrong. There are still obviously legit strongholds of Ulster Irish in Donegal, but with the lack of Ulster features in the Official Standard, and the sometimes massive differences in pronunciation, I'd be more inclined to focus on Connacht.

All things considered, wouldn't learners of Irish be better served by focusing on the living Irish of south Conamara, or, as a secondary option, learning "standard" Irish?

Otherwise, we'll be left with a situation where all sorts of learners will be speaking a wide variety of regional dialects. Most with a heavy Standard influence, I imagine. Surely this just hinders communication?

Since most learners will never approach the fluency of a native speaker, wouldn't it be better to have most speaking one dialect for greater mutual understanding instead of Ulster, Munster and Connacht camps (or a jumble of all three with CO influence?)

Why not leave the lesser-spoken dialects to the native speakers of those districts and to dialectologists and linguists in general?

It's like dealing with endangered species. Tigers, for example. The Sumatran Tiger is now only found in the wild on a single island (population estimated at around 400). The South China Tiger has only been photographed in the wild once in twenty years! On the other hand, the Bengal Tiger of India has a wild population of 1,400+ and a wider range, although it's under severe pressure too.

So do you try to save all the sub-species or do you focus your efforts onto the ones with the best chance of survival?

(Message edited by danny2007 on January 07, 2009)

they're all irish (ie. dialects, not separate languages). it shouldn't matter what people learn so long as they use it. too often the learner or prospective learner gets bogged down in this sort of thing and never actually gets anywhere with the language.

it's not like choosing which "dialect" of chinese one wants to learn as they're not all mutually intelligible.

It's a false dichotomy. When I learned German, I didn't have to chose between learning the standard language and learning the local dialect of Breisgau; I learned both. Neither is perfect--my Alemannic accent is noticeable on my Standard German and my Badisch is heavily influenced by the standard (which is frankly par for the course in the city of Freiburg). But I've never had any trouble with anyone understanding either.

So now that I'm tackling Irish, I'm learning to use both West Muskerry and CO, altering my speech according to my perceptions of the ability of the speaker. For instance, I respond to Lughaidh in Munster, he writes back in Ulster, and we communicate just fine. With other learners, we both shift closer to the standard in order to make things easier for them. I see the same behaviour from several others on the board.

Frankly, for all the talk about the huge divergences between Irish dialects, they're nothing like the differences I saw in German-speaking countries. My knowledge of Breisgauer Alemannic is just enough to understand much of what a person from Basel (74 km. away) says. But go deeper into Switzerland and I'm lost; I had a roommate from Bern who was so completely unintelligible when he spoke Bärndütsch, that he used to leave messages for himself on our common answer machine confident that I would never decode them. I can understand most of the song lyrics from EAV, an Austrian band, or the character of Frosch in Fledermaus but I once went to see an entire play in Austrian dialect and understood almost none of it. By comparison, Abigail's Connacht-flavoured diction isn't half the challenge.

I rather suspect the keeper-onners will keep on and the giver-uppers will give up whether we had two dialects or twenty. My experience has been that intermediate learners studying different dialects often have less trouble understanding each other's conversation than they do native speakers of any dialect, including the one they're focused on. Dialect isn't the problem; the problem is a combination of speed, complexity and vocabulary (in other words, fluency!)

This is all flapping about nothing. Why?

There simply are not enough learning books based on ANY particular dialect, so you CAN'T get lost in one!

What dialects has taken your interest Danny?

I love Donegal Irish myself, after that I have an interest in Corca Dhuibhne and Muskerry Irish.

Actually, not learning a dialect because it is less-used is the best way to make it die (if everybody does the same).

There's no problem in learning a less-used dialect, if it is understandable to other speakers (and I don't see any Irish dialect that wouldn't be understandable to all other dialect-speakers...).

May everyone learn the dialect(s) he wants to learn, agus sin a' méid.

If you start with Learning Irish, as I did, and then find as many sean-nós recordings from Connemara singers as you can, read novels and short stories from authors of the region, and concentrate your visits to Connemara when you do go to Ireland at least at first, you CAN immerse yourself pretty much in that dialect as I have done. And I would bet that Abigail has done something like that too. ;-)

Like-wise people who started with the old Munster-based Teach Yourself book find themselves more comfortable with Irish, songs and literature from that region.

I don't know a Donegal book myself, although Now You're Talking came close for a light introduction. Nevertheless, there are people like Lughaidh who have made Donegal dialect their specialty. Once you have the basics, you can concentrate on the Mac Griannas, etc., and other authors from the region, and there are plenty of singers up that way too, so the materials are there.

Native speakers in any language start out in their own dialect and later standardize it. It is a natural progression and as a student it is good to have a base to work from. Once you have the basics of "your own dialect" it becomes easier to keep them all apart. You know which bits belong to "your" and which bits belong to "theirs" and which bits belong to the "standard".

Having learnt Cois Fhairrge/Ó Siadhail which I learnt to "standardize" using Buntús Cainte and de Bhaldraithe, I had little trouble adjusting to understand Donegal Irish passively or making myself understood in the Donegal Gaeltacht. I could inject some Donegal-isms into my speech, and that is usually welcomed by the locals, whereas sticking too slavishly to the standard or to your own dialect is not. But I never strayed far linguistically from my Connemara base and as a visitor I didn't have to. A word here or there was enough to "meet on common ground".

People were intrigued that anyone would learn Irish to that depth in one dialect and warmed to me because of it. And it was a pleasure to be asked to sing my "Connemara songs" in Donegal. The best compliment I ever got about my Irish anywhere was "you sound like you just came in off the bog."

Given the negativity from native speakers towards the standard and expecially "school Irish", I would not recommend that anyone start with the standard.

My experience has been that intermediate learners studying different dialects often have less trouble understanding each other's conversation than they do native speakers of any dialect, including the one they're focused on.

Nach fíor sin! Nuair a thosaíos ar Ghermáinis d'fhoghlaim do dúradh liom, "Tiocfaidh am nuair a thuigfir cad a bheid siad ag rá leat agus tuigfid siad cad a bheir ag rá leotha, ach is í an fhíortheist cé acu a bheidir in ann a thuiscint cad a bheid siad ag rá nuair a bheid siad ag rá lena chéile."

Breandán, whoever you are and wherever you are from. I love your insights and observations. Have you ever considered writing a book on the subject of Irish? and the learning of the language from your experiences?
niall

p.s. intersting viewpoints of your time in Donegal. and what is it about the standard Irish that native speakers seem to hate???? I hear a lot of people say that but I never hear WHY they dislike it.

I'd say natives dislike standard Irish because it's a kind of invented dialect, which is spoken mainly by teachers and a so-called "elite" whose world is completely different to that of the Gaeltacht. I think Gaeltacht people have respect towards the other Gaeltacht dialects, but if it's a kind of Irish that's been made-up by professors in Dublin offices, they have not.

That's what I think they think, like :-) (ach is féidir go bhfuil dul amú orm...)

I couldn't agree with you more Lughaidh.
well said.

quote:

what is it about the standard Irish that native speakers seem to hate???? I hear a lot of people say that but I never hear WHY they dislike it.

I think it is similar to the way people hate English spelling. English spelling does not match any living pronunciation of English (except maybe Scottish), but no one is game to change it because it fits all dialects equally poorly.

If you changed English spelling which "standard" would you change it to? Everyone in the States would assume it would be the American standard, and most people outside would probably say British Received, and whichever you chose a lot of other people who speak neither would feel slighted.

So people are kind of happy to leave things as they are and just complain about how it needs changing, but no one really wants to change it. (Iksept miy, probabliy. ;-) )

People from other dialects may think the Irish standard is too Connemara-based. I have always thought it had a bias towards Munster, but we always notice the bits that are different not the bits that are the same. Certainly I think Donegal is under-represented.

I have always wondered why they don't take the average of the remaining Gaeltachtaí and revise the standard to that but that is a luxury of the present. When the standard was put down, I think Irish was in much more danger of evaporating than it is now. Something had to be put down on paper quickly to kickstart the education system and get it into the schools before the language disappeared completely, and now that the situation has stabilized somewhat people are complaining about the poor job that was done.

Standards are always targets, though, in any language. How do you feel about people who speak with posh British accents? Or Americans who try to say /hwot/ for "what" instead of plain old /wot/? Real people don't talk like that, right?

Whatever may be wrong with the standard, I still find the biggest threat to Irish is people telling others their Irish isn't right. I've seen a pleasant conversation among Irish people turn into an argument about whether beidh should be pronounced /b'eg'/ or /b'ei/.

I have had non-native speakers tell me my pronunciation was too Australian because they didn't know Cois Fhairrge people pronounce éirigh /airi:/ not /eiri:/. ( I _am_ Australian but I have had native Connemara speakers confirm my accent is correct for the dialect.)

And I've been told by Irish people whose parents were both Irish speakers that they gave up learning Irish as kids because their parents were from different parts of Ireland and would get into these kinds of arguments all the time.

I think it happens more with breac-Ghaeilgeoir and other non-native speakers. True native speakers don't go around correcting each other's pronunciations in any language. They make a mental note of the difference and add it to their passive vocab.

Non-native speakers, on the other hand, tend to think that whatever they learned is the standard and are quicker to tell people if they think someone else isn't using their standard. It masks their own inadequacies and insecurities.

Unfortunately, the situation in Irish is such that you are much more likely to meet a non-native speaker than a native one unless you search very hard.

That is just another reason to pick one dialect and stick to your guns.

And I would bet that Abigail has done something like that too. ;-)
Is tú a bheadh thíos leis dá ndéanfá. ;-)
Tuigim céard atá tú a rá agus is dócha gur rinne mé méid áirithe de sin - gan amhras gur i gConamara a thuganns mo chosa anois mé, pé uair a fhaghaim an deis - ach léim chuile shórt agus éistím le chuile shórt agus labhraím le chuile shórt, agus sin is béas liom i gcónaí. Is é an chaoi gur thosaigh mé le Gaeilge Uladh an chéad lé riamh, nó gur thit mé isteach le múinteoir de bhunadh Ceantair na nOileán. An chéad leabhar Gaeilge a léigh mé, Gaeilge Chois Fharraige a bhí ann, an dara leabhar, Gaeilge Chorca Dhorcha, agus an tríú leabhar, Gaeilge na mBlascaoidí.

B'ait liom riamh go ngabhfainn de mo dheoin fein faoi chuing seo an aonchanúnachais agus dhá dtrian den saol a choisceadh orm féin, an uair cheanann céanna is gur chóir dom a bheith ag fás is ag foghlaim is ag alpadh léinn.

Well, after saying all that I said above, Lughaidh has said it much more succinctly and concisely. ^^;;;

Abigail, I didn't mean to imply that you had limited yourself only to Connemara Irish, only that you seemed to have made your base there.

I think we should all read as widely as possible but it is less confusing to do so if you have a firm grounding in at least one dialect first.

No offence taken! I just think the conventional wisdom could stand a bit of counterpoint.

Pick a book and stick to it
(Books, books, lovely plural books)
Pick a dialect and stick to it
(Learn everything you can lay hands on)
Ignore the others till later
(Read whatever takes your fancy)
Otherwise you'll just confuse yourself
(You'll be fine, I was, this is meant to be fun!)

"I've seen a pleasant conversation among Irish people turn into an argument about whether beidh should be pronounced /b'eg'/ or /b'ei/. "

And needless to say none of them had a slender b, so were wrong anyway...

Having spoken and learnt Irish all my life -- almost trí scór go leith bliain now -- I am amazed at the preoccupation of so many learners with the dialects and with what constitutes a "native" speaker.

You certainly need to know how to pronounce words and that can be quite different from dialect to dialect but not the spelling or grammar except for small divergences. Even words that have a different pronunciation from dialect to dialect are easily understood in all dialects. Only those who know little Irish in any dialect and pretend to be native speakers have difficulty with other dialects.

I can't imagine trying to write official documents in a dialect although I hate to see songs or poems standardised to such an extent that the rhymes are lost. That is a travesty and literature should be left in the dialect in which it was written.

Native speakers would of course claim that official documents written in Irish are too difficult and prefer the English. A glance at www.focal.ie will show why. It is a wonderful and fascinating database of new terminology in Irish.

Much of the dislike expressed by "native speakers" for the standard language is really an expression of dislike for the use of the language by anyone at all other than their own grandparents -- who probably knew no English. Very few Gaeltacht parents are succeeding in transmitting Irish to their own children. Having decided to rear their own children through English, and finding it difficult, they do not like to encounter people who are on the opposite road to themselves: learning Irish and worse still, using it. Unless of course such people are paying for their accommodation and then it is "Céad míle míle fáilte romhat".

In the early days of the Irish language revival, 1890s onwards, before the Standard language had been thought of, 1950s, it was "Gaeilge na Leabhar" that drew their oprobrium. They hated any forms of Irish not current in their own townland.

I would like to think that Raidio na Gaeltachta, TG4, Foinse, Lá, and almost 90 years of an education system that has tried to teach the language to a supposedly apathetic population -- although good enthusiastic teachers seem to get a great response everywhere -- I would like to think that the issue of "the best dialect" or "caint na ndaoine" versus "Gaeilge na Leabhar" have been buried as issues and all that remains is to learn the language. (I know the "Gaeilge na Leabhar" issue related to An Ghaeilge Chlasaiceach of 400 years earlier with its old spelling and archaic forms.)

I am not criticising learners but just advising caution against rejecting An Caighdeán Oifigiúil / The Official Standard too readily. Based on research it was prepared by native speakers, scholars, and translators, to cater for all dialects using structures and vocabulary common to most. I regard it as an additional written dialect to be supplemented by the traditional dialects of the Gaeltacht. It is used in all official documents and taught in the schools.

Like all speakers of Irish I think my own dialect is best! (My own dialect? A mixture of all! With a few "Tha go dearbh"s from the Gaidhlig of Scotland thrown in for good measure.)

Interesting discussion. I suppose most learners are going to be drawn to the stronger gaeltachtaí anyway since it provides more opportunities to use their Irish in a real way. I just think having three, four or five dialects competing can stiffle communication or even result in people getting into disputes over "correct" pronunciation, as Breandán mentioned.

I suppose my contention is that the only people who can stabilise a particular regional dialect in any meaningful way are the people who actually live in the region. Both active and lapsed native speakers above all. I'm not suggesting that certain dialects be "abandoned", but that learners (*LEARNERS being the keyword here) might get more out of the language if they chose a dialect which is more widely spoken and would thus be more familiar to them when they encounter other speakers. Clearly there are some pretty exceptional individuals on Daltaí and some pretty amazing speakers here, but I'm not sure that that's something the average learner of Irish largely confined to Dublin, for example, can match. I imagine "book Irish" and Conamara Irish are the most widely spoken in the Capital? (If not across Ireland)


Are there many comtemporary authors writing in their own dialect or is it mostly CO?

quote:

What dialects has taken your interest Danny?

Conamara. Not only do I find the sound the most pleasing, it's clearly the dialect that's most widely spoken. Combined with the strong influence on the CO, it seems like the logical choice. I can't be bothered to learn the dialect of Múscraí, for example, when it's only actively spoken by seven or eight hundred people. Nor is it the language of the majority in even one community. Something Brian Ó Cuív pointed out as long ago as 1949, and he knew better than just about anyone when it came to Cork Irish.

In my opinion, a lot of Munster stuff sounds like a native English speaker speaking Irish as a second language. Seems watered down. However, since I can only catch words here and there, my ears aren't as "trained" to the sounds and rhythms as others so admittedly I'm not the best judge. Just my initial impressions. Ulster seems practically a breed apart with many of the pronunciations.

Some say you should try and model your Irish after one individual. I might eventually do that. I've always liked the Irish of Máirtín Tom Sheáinín [Mac Dhonnacha]. TG4 and RnaG presenter. Former Corn Uí Riada (sean-nós) champ from Leitír Móir, Conamara.

quote:

When the standard was put down, I think Irish was in much more danger of evaporating than it is now.

Hmm. In what sense do you mean? If you mean the position of Irish in Ireland as a whole, then yes I agree it's in a healthier state than it was in the 1950s. If you're referring to the Gaeltacht specifically, then no. The total population then and now is quite similar. Around 80,000 then and 95,000 now. This largely due to the large population increase in and around Galway city. But in terms of the total number of active native speakers (especially those under age 20) and in terms of intergenerational transmission, they aren't really comparable. But this is something that can of course be remedied if the will is there. It *IS* being remedied slowly but surely in some areas.

quote:

Having learnt Cois Fhairrge/Ó Siadhail

Doesn't he use IPA? Did you learn it beforehand? Phonetic fun!

By "contemporary authors" do you have in mind poets, novelists or academics?

Most people nowadays write some sort of compromise - not as aggressively dialectal as (for example) Lughaidh s'againne, but not completely standard either. There are certain well-recognized, thoroughly respectable deviations - a sort of standard dialect, if you like - others that are generally confined to dialogue or poetry, and then there's your Huck Finn Irish (or your dialect study Irish, it comes down to the same thing.)

A few concrete examples from Conamara:
(excellent choice, by the way! )

"sa gcoill" seachas "sa choill" - used everywhere, practically standard
"dhom" instead of "dom" - used in dialogue or personal correspondence, but not much else (think "ain't")
"a'm" instead of "agam" - completely nonstandard, most mainstream authors wouldn't write it this way even in dialogue (think "hafta")

Novelists and poets. Any person still alive and writing. Are there many examples of writers using words which are chiefly confined to their own region?

I know Ciarán Ó Duibhín writes Ulster Irish material, for example. He has railed against the lack of Ulster features in the CO.

On the other hand, certain writers made an effort to produce works which would be easily read well before the Official Standard was introduced. I've read Robin Flower's English translation of An tOileánach. If I recall correctly, he makes reference to Tomás Ó Criomhthain and how he tried to write the book in language that would be easily understood by all. How would he have done this? I imagine the original is written in pure Munster Irish (sans words unique to Na Blascaodaí??)

Plenty of examples. Honest Injun, the CO has much less to say about vocabulary than some people suppose. A "mistake" tends to be a "meancóg" in Ulster, a "dearmad" in Connemara and a "botún" in Munster; all three words are entirely standard though. On the other hand, Connemara/Munster "amáireach" is (quite properly) deprecated as a dialectal variant of "amárach." Basic rule of thumb: you can use any word you want, just spell it right!

Actually "An tOileánach" was the third book I read in Irish. (It was meant to be the second but I made the mistake of picking up "An Béal Bocht" one afternoon in the library...) I found it interesting - but then I liked "Peig" a lot too so maybe I'm easily pleased. Anyway, yes, the Irish in it is thoroughly Munster and that took some getting used to (the first two chapters were slow going for me), but aside from dialect the story is told in a simple, natural style. Apples to apples, I think "An tOileánach" would be much easier for the average Munster reader than "Cré na Cille" would be for the average Connemara reader.

Whether you start with a dialect or the standard I think it is important to realise that you can always change course later on. I started with Connemara Irish and have come back towards the standard, at least in my writing, and have also branched out to other dialects at least passively.

Some of us like to stay focused on a definite objective and others prefer to dibble and dabble, and some choose a mixture of both. Some want to read and write, some want to sing. In the end, you have to find a method of learning that suits you and your aims.

Although I started with Learning Irish, I soon found i got bogged down with the explanations. When that happened I would go off and study Buntús Cainte for conversation or look through other texts or even try to read a novel and eventually the answer would come to me, "Oh, THAT'S what he meant," and then I could go back to Learning Irish and continue my original journey.

No one text has all the answers. No one method suits everyone. And if you want to be able to go the distance, as Abigail says, it has to be fun. (Oh, and yes, Danny, for some of us, phonetics _is_ fun. ;-) )

quote:

I am not criticising learners but just advising caution against rejecting An Caighdeán Oifigiúil / The Official Standard too readily. Based on research it was prepared by native speakers, scholars, and translators, to cater for all dialects using structures and vocabulary common to most.

That's not true. The CO has quite a lot of features that don't exist in any living dialect. For example : the ending -amar in the past 1pl : in Munster people use -amair (with slender i) and in the other dialects, people use the analytic form of the verb (with muid). And why using -amar if you don't use -abhair and -adar, etc?
For vocabulary, looks like nobody says "litir". I think people say "leitir" in Munster, Connachta and Ulster.

quote:

Most people nowadays write some sort of compromise - not as aggressively dialectal as (for example) Lughaidh s'againne, but not completely standard either.

Aggressively dialectal ? What is aggressive there?

quote:

Plenty of examples. Honest Injun, the CO has much less to say about vocabulary than some people suppose.

In theory. But actually, in learning books and official texts, there are words that aren't used. They never say "don't use these words", but... they don't use them themselves...

quote:

A "mistake" tends to be a "meancóg" in Ulster, a "dearmad" in Connemara and a "botún" in Munster; all three words are entirely standard though.

But will you find "meancóg" in a learning book or in some official text ?

quote:

On the other hand, Connemara/Munster "amáireach" is (quite properly) deprecated as a dialectal variant of "amárach." Basic rule of thumb: you can use any word you want, just spell it right!

Why would amáireach be wronger than amárach? Why this time, the Connachta word hasn't been chosen for the CO while most of the CO is Connachta Irish?...

Ní focal chomh láidir sin é "aggressive", a Lughaidh.

Ní trodach atá i gceist. Díograiseach, b'fhéidir.

quote:

But will you find "meancóg" in a learning book or in some official text ?

Gheobhadh - sampla:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories-ga/taisteal-agus-aineas/gluaisteana iocht/scruduithe-tiomana/driving_tests_for_disabled_drivers?set_language=ga

I find this competition that often seems to go on between the dialects saddening and downright ludicrous.
All the dialects will sink or float together.

I personally have concentrated on the Munster dialect, not because I consider it superior to the others but simply because it is closest to what I became familiar with in school (e.g. 'ao' pronounced /e:/, terminal -idh & -igh pronounced /g'/ etc).
That said I don't see any point in restricting myself to forms found only in the Munster dialect and considering everything else off limits. I feel free to use 'meancóg', 'dearmad' and 'botún' along with any other word or phrase usually associated with one of the other dialects.
Why shouldn't I? It's Irish I'm learning not 'Munsterese'.
There's no point in me desperately trying to sound as if I was born and bred in Rinn Ua gCuanach or Muscraighe.


I would like to see the day when all dialects are enriched by exposure to each other and move closer together. And surely this is precisely what would happen if the language was ever re-established across the country.
To hell with petty, devisive nonsence like "Oh, you can't use "fosta", that's Ulster Irish. You have to use 'leis'"
Perhaps there was a time when "also", "too" and "aswell" were associated with different regions of England but this is no longer the case and now the speech of all English speakers is richer for being able to select any of the three.

(Message edited by James_Murphy on January 09, 2009)

Lughaidh, I meant "aggressive" in the nicest way possible, but I did mean it. :-) Ní náir duit an troid más fiúntach leat an chúis.

Do you really mean "words" that people don't use (i.e. etymologically or semantically distinct), or "spellings"? I don't consider (say) "éigin" and "eicínt" honest-to-goodness separate words any more than I do "color" and "colour".

Yes, as Aonghus says you do find "meancóg" sometimes in official documents. I've run across it myself before (in some information leaflets I was asked to proofread once) and I didn't "correct" it - why would I? - so I expect it's still there.

"Amárach" is the historical form.

From where I sit the CO looks like an extraordinary balancing act between internal consistency, living dialects and historical forms. Lots of people critique it only as a compromise between three living dialects and completely ignore the other factors; that's where I think they go wrong.
(Incidentally I'd love to get hold of Niall Ó Dónaill's 1951 pamphlet "Forbairt na Gaeilge", where he discusses reasons for some of the specific choices that were made. I've found extracts from it online but not the whole thing.)

quote:

Lughaidh, I meant "aggressive" in the nicest way possible, but I did mean it. :-) Ní náir duit an troid más fiúntach leat an chúis.

Bhail, is dócha go bhfuil cialla dearfacha (?) ag "aggressive" i mBéarla agus nach bhfuil ar eolas agam... I bhFraincis níl ciall dhearfach ar bith aigen fhocal a dtig a chómhaith Bhéarla as...

quote:

Do you really mean "words" that people don't use (i.e. etymologically or semantically distinct), or "spellings"?

words.

quote:

I don't consider (say) "éigin" and "eicínt" honest-to-goodness separate words any more than I do "color" and "colour".

Although they must come from the same original word, éigin and eicínt are different forms. There's no rule that says that a -g- between vowels becomes c and that the e must be shortened and that the i must be lengthened and that a t should be added...

quote:

Yes, as Aonghus says you do find "meancóg" sometimes in official documents. I've run across it myself before (in some information leaflets I was asked to proofread once) and I didn't "correct" it - why would I? - so I expect it's still there.

Ok but it is so seldom used...

quote:

"Amárach" is the historical form.

Aye but why would it be better than "amáireach"? If only the historical forms should be used in the CO, why is the language called Gaeilge (genitive form) instead of Gaeidhealg (actually I dunno how you'd spell it in a modern spelling, maybe Gaelg -- looks like Manx!) ? And there are so many examples of forms that have be chosen, we just dunno why.

quote:

From where I sit the CO looks like an extraordinary balancing act between internal consistency, living dialects and historical forms. Lots of people critique it only as a compromise between three living dialects and completely ignore the other factors; that's where I think they go wrong.

It is not a compromise between the 3 dialects anyway because it has almost no Ulster features... And about the historical forms, why including them in the standard language if they aren't used anywhere today ? Do we want to use Modern Irish or Pre-Modern Irish (or Classical Irish?) ?
Another funny example : "I will do".
Standard: déanfaidh mé
Ulster: ghéanfaidh mé or gheánfaidh mé
Connachta: díonfaidh mé
Munster: deinfead

So... why should we use "déanfaidh mé" ???

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(Incidentally I'd love to get hold of Niall Ó Dónaill's 1951 pamphlet "Forbairt na Gaeilge", where he discusses reasons for some of the specific choices that were made. I've found extracts from it online but not the whole thing.)

Aye, must be interesting. Dála 'n scéil, nár Ultach Niall Ó Dónaill ? 'Tuighe nár cuireadh níos mó tréithe Ultacha sa chaighdeán má bhí Ultaigh i measc na ndaoiní a chum é?

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But will you find "meancóg" in a learning book or in some official text ?

Níl a fhios agam anois cá bhfuair mé an focal sin, ach tá sé agam le fada, bainim úsáid as sách minic, agus ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé in áit na leathphingine maidir leis an gCO. Níl lipéad i mo cheann ar chuile fhocal Gaeilge atá agam ag rá cad as dó (nó cá has é). Níl suim dá laghad agam, mar atá a fhios agaibh uile faoin am seo, in íonghlaine canúnach.

The only books I have are from the Buntús Cainte series. Standard spelling with Conamara pronunciation from the 1960s??

I don't really see how one can say that all the dialects will sink or float together. Is anyone learning the Irish of Reachlainn or Ó Méith or Cill Chaoi in 2009? Some dialects survive. Some don't.

Personally, I think a far more pressing issue is the creeping anglicisation on the Irish of many learners especially in terms of English syntax and phonology. Can the Standard be blamed for this? Surely these are issues which can impact someone regardless of whether they are learning straight CO in school or if they're trying to speak the Irish of Ros Muc or Baile na nGall. It's partly why I've held off learning the language in a meaningful way in the past because I wondered if I'd even be able to overcome these influences and speak Irish worthy of the name.

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The designers of the standard enunciated a number of principles, such as 'two dialects out of three' and 'simplicity', and if those principles could be taken at face value, it would be possible to believe that the official standard is 'finely balanced'.

A closer look, however, shows that Munster forms have been chosen over forms common to Ulster and Connacht, e.g. rabh, nuaíocht, ceannacht, cuartú, cliú, áirid, cistineach, foighid, páighe. South Connemara crua was preferred to cruaidh as found everywhere else. I know of only one instance, amárach, where the Ulster form prevailed over the combined might of Munster and Connacht.

- Ciarán Ó Duibhín, Irish News, 17 April 2004

All the correspondence regarding the Standard v Ulster debate can be found at the link below. Includes letter headlines like "Treatment of Ulster Irish is a matter of shame", "Irish language has blossomed since standardisation" and "Standard Irish has done little for the survival of the language."

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/mcq/ulsterirish.htm