This has probably been asked before, but can somebody advise what method is used to teach Irish in the Irish educational system? Thanks.

hope this isn't a second post on here.. sorry if it is.


Not sure what you mean Domhnall about 'method' used to teach Irish. From what i remember, keep in mind its over 20 years since I finished in secondary school (high school), I would say its what I would call a standard method.

From the early years you get those little books like you would get over here where you learn to read from. You know Jane and Tom and their dog spot. Just that in Ireland it was Sean, Maura, agus Rusty an madra (Rusty the dog) :) basic learning simple sentences with a picture book to get used to simple words associating them with pictures etc. learning how to spell the words, being quizzed on how to spell the words. learing grammar as a class repeating phrases, verbs etc over and over again Ta me, Ta tu, Ta se, taimid, etc etc. A little boring sorta thing. Teachers will ask questions in Irish and solicit responses from students etc.

All taught in Standard Irish and you're not really told that there is any other type of Irish. i.e. I never knew there really was different versions or dialets of Irish until I was out of school. from my perspective most of the teachers of Irish were fluent but I found them harsh and rigid with students who were weaker at the language

I absolutely hated Irish in my shchool years because I found it so hard to learn and was terrifeid of some the teachers before graduating because they'd ridicule you if you didn't know stuff. I kept my head down in class alot. I was particularly bad at it and felt ashamed that i couldnt even understand basic words like Ta and bhi before the age of 18 (my parents had no Irish - most of our parents left school around 15 to work so educations was limited with them) so they couldnt help.

As we got into high school (secondary) we were placed in classes that were divided along intelligenc levels (for all classes) I was in the middle one. some guys in class were good at speaking it. some were like me. terrible! Unless things have changed with the teacing of it and the teachers in particular then more studends probably have had or are having the same experiences as i had with it. funny thing is that i discovered a book in the last 4 months of my high school year (progress in Irish) I learned more in 4 months from that book by teaching myself than in 11-12 years of school Irish. Granted it wasn't hard to learn more than the approx 5 words I knew in Irish from school. but that book little book did more for my knowledge than the Irish school system could ever dream of. Outside of the Irish class room I learned to at least develop a love for the words and language (still can't speak it) but at least I want it to survive. From my experience the Irish school system almost turns you off it. AT least that was my experience and I'm hoping that my situation was not that norm but it prolly was for a sizeable number of students

but overall the teaching style isn't an immersion type of teachign or anyting like that. its books, grammar, questions to promote discussion, readers, proper spelling, how to write it how to read it sorta thing. We never were shown practical ways that Irish is used. you know, like they never showed anything in the classroom of how Irish was used in the gaeltacht or something. they coulda have used tools like video to show those things. we were told of the gaeltacht but had no great understanding of what went on there. it was almost foreign. Rich kids got a chance to go there in the summer but working class kids like myself coudlnt afford to go (I actually really wanted to go) there were more important things to spend money on (morgtage and food) than sending your kids to the gaeltacht.
hope this helps.
niall

From my experience the Irish school system almost turns you off it. AT least that was my experience and I'm hoping that my situation was not that norm but it prolly was for a sizeable number of students.

Sadly, this is what I've heard from everyone of my generation who's been through the Irish school system. One Irish woman I knew in Germany called her Irish classes "the bane of your life". Another had the same complaint as you: That they never taught you "anything useful, like business Irish". The only one I knew who was truly excited about the language was from the North!

Nowadays, there are a lot of interesting interactive materials for learning Irish available to learners. I can only pray to heaven that some of these are finding their way into classrooms!

Niall, thank you very, very much for your reply.

Lika Domhnaillin, I've also heard from the vast majority of Irish that I've met, that they had awful experiences learning Irish when they were students, many of them to the point that they came to hate it intensely -- and that they couldn't speak a word of it even after all those years of education.

That just baffles and intrigues me to no end, especially in light of the questions that were asked in the 20-year plan that Aonghus posted elsewhere in this discussion area.

Thanks again for your reply.

"Sean, Maura, agus Rusty an madra"

God, I recall them! They were on the way out when I was a gasson (I'm 28), but I recall their adventures -going to school (in shorts) in the snow. Need something for the dinner? No problem, Seán can go off on his trusty bike (shotgun over the handle bars!) and blast them away, throw the carcass on, and cycle away, blood staining the ground. If a gun is not to hand, a bata would do the job...

No political correctness there!

it sounds like the same kind of problem faced by American students taking their foreign language requirements in high school and college...if it is never used outside of the classroom, one may learn enough to pass the tests, but will never learn the language.

And until there's a situation where it *needs* to be used outside of the classroom, it won't be.

As an educator I can say that the answer does not lie as much in what's done inside the classroom as outside. If an improvement is to be made in the lack of usage among the youth and younger adults (those starting families), than flashy textbooks aren't the answer...real-life necessity-for-use (not even "opportunity-for-use") is...

it sounds like the same kind of problem faced by American students taking their foreign language requirements in high school and college...if it is never used outside of the classroom, one may learn enough to pass the tests, but will never learn the language.

I disagree, Antain. We're not comparing apples to apples.

In the US, there is almost a contempt for foreign language curricula, so much so that foreign language studies aren't required at elementary levels where they might do a modicum of good, but are delayed to middle- or high-school where they are treated as archaic formalities at best. By far, most people I went to school with took Spanish explicitly becuase "it was easy" and they took no more than the minimal requirement of two years. The classes were dumbed down appropriately.

In Ireland, however, the study of Irish is compulsory for something like thirteen years. Thirteen years! Yet still people manage to graduate from that school system not merely unable to use it to any degree, but with an active hatred for it. How and why that could come to pass is a mystery to me.

I am in my 50s and certainly many of my generation (and a bit younger) came away despising the language. There were many reasons for this; the teaching methods (emphasis on grammar); dour texts (Peig etc); and an association with die-hardism (if there is such a word).

When I look at my own daughters (two in their 20's and one just starting University) their attitudes are different. The youngest maintains her interest and is taking Irish as part of her degree, but the older two just think the langauage is irrelevant to their lives. They do not despise the language, they just don't need it and have no interest it.

My own interest in the langauge, long dormant, was revived when I bought a house in the Gaeltacht. It became relevant again!

The current Curricula can be found on An Roinn Eadóchais' site here

http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=17216&pcategory=17216&ecategory=17 233&language=EN

"...not comparing apples to apples..."

yes, there are differences in the two situations, although I don't think they are what produce the effects we see.

Now, many (most?) school districts in the US are now starting kids with foreign languages much earlier...in the wee grades, and there are tv shows that incorporate foreign languages into the programming for little kids. Every district I've worked in seems to start them at or before 2nd/3rd grade now.

Of course, by "foreign languages" I mean "Spanish" which, sadly, is yet the only language "worth" learning in the American estimation.

However, the attitude toward complete resentment has shifted, and most people want their kids to learn Spanish (and mayhaps learn Spanish themselves) for one of two reasons. Either, a) they see a tremendous practical value in learning the language (now or in the near future) or b) they feel "under seige" and want to learn it as a defensive measure ("so that 'they' aren't speaking a language around me i don't understand..." etc)

But here's where it's the same:
During my time teaching, I have seen numerous immigrant students with no english enter the US school system - Brazilian Port., Urdu and Polish are the students that jump immediately to mind. Within one academic year, they were fluent enough to hold actual conversations without having to fish for words, or need me to rephrase or explain words on my end. They would take (and pass) their classes taught in english.

On the other hand, many of my native US students after three (or more) academic years of Spanish could not hold even a basic, stock-phrase conversation (most colleges require two semesters of a language as well).

The difference? The ESL students *needed* to use english everywhere, not just in one classroom, once a day. The non-ESL students did not ever need to use their Spanish outside of the 40mins/day they had Spanish class.

Likewise, a student who takes Irish in school, but uses only english for the other 1400 minutes in a day, and perceives no actual practical *need* to use the langauge, will both fail to get the reinforcement they need to acquire the language as well as not want to commit the time and energy required in the first place.

Language is a real-world thing...only so much can be done with classroom instruction if the classroom is the only place it will be used. This is why I say the Irish government's resources are not best spent on developing new materials.

If one doesn't speak the langauge, one can have all the opportunity in the world (always with the safety net of english, mind you) and will still not be able to participate. This is why I say the Irish government's resources are not best spent on developing "opportunities to use Irish" (as I've heard it termed).

Most people won't spend the time and effort to learn a language (required for being able to use it)if there is not a percieved need to do so. Some of them may *want* to learn it for romantic reasons, but they almost always take a back seat to practical concerns. The Irish people did not start speaking english because they liked it better, or thought it was mellifluous, or felt a kinship with english ancestors...they did not learn it because the textbooks offered multimedia materials, or Spongebob or Dora spoke english...nor was it an issue of good PR or fuzzy, warm feelings toward the language (indeed, english was the tongue of the Invader, the Stranger...the hated enemy...the eternal foe...)

In the end, they learned english (to the detriment of their native tongue) because there was an inescapable, crushing, undeniable NEED to have it and use it (at least economic and political, if not in other areas as well). Such a need would be required for revival in galltacht areas (which, sadly, does not seem to be a goal at all)...but it is also an absolute requirement for holding ground in the gaeltacht...in short, the Irish government needs to create a *need* for the language

This is Niall again to add to what i said yesterday - First of all thanks for all your comments and glad to get feedback and be of help at the same time. You know the interesting thing is that I didn't take french till age 12 when i sent into high school (secondary) and I picked that up a lot easier. Perhaps becasue it was a fresh start at a language with no mental blocks??? Plus I also saw a practical use for it outside the classroom as in I could see myself going to France someday and using it (the NEED). They actually had a tour they organized every year for students to go to France or Germany if they were taking any of those languages to see how it was used in a living real setting.

Good to hear Suaimhneas above say at least one of her dtrs is taking an active interest in it. PErhaps the teaching methods and maybe even teachers have changed for the better. Anything will help. lol :) I think at this stage any changes or new approaches to teaching or trying to help can only help the situtation. I'd agree with her that some Irish people just dont care about the language and see no need for it. That's fine and there could be reasons for that and maybe something inside them hasn't awoken yet. But i agree with the person that said there has to be a NEED. I"m not sure if there will ever be a practical need for it as such other than it being a need to retain our culture and heritage. But there might be. When i used to watch the news in Irish (Nuacht) that came on each day on tv although I didnt understand a word of it (hardly) I loved the sound and I WANTED to understand it. There was my NEED if you will. IM sure TG4 or whatever its called is helping immensley in this area. I thikn if you see the language being used it gives you more of an incentive to try or learn etc.

Even in my own home town back in IReland (Portlaoise in County Laois) which is in the midlands, and not known for its use of Irish or anything, they have a school for the young kids now that is in all Irish. This is completely new for this area. My mother and some of my sisters see no practical need for Irish (which i argue with them about lol) but glad to say my cousin has her kids going there. and I know from growing up in Portlaoise the People that I saw on rare occasions using Irish around the town were teachers or more educated people. I think as the IRish population gets more educated (as opposed to my mothers generation who grew up in the 60's) they want their kids to learn Irish. Little schools like this are probably a great way to get kids kick started into learning and speaking basic Irish from which they can progress much easier than my generation did and not feel akward or embarassed to speak it. I've heard from my family that there is a much greater interest in Irish these days and thru more Irish being on tv and radio and immersion schools like this I think we'll start to see a reversing of trends.

ONe thing I'd suggest for the Irish school system and the government (if they are serious about the language)is to have more tours organized thru schools and have kids stay with gaeltacht families throughout the summer at no cost to the student or at least heaviily subsidized for students who cant' afford it. Let them see it in a living setting. That would help them want to learn it when they got back to the classroom. THey'd know there is a use for it and it wouldnt be something some christian brother or nun was ramming down their throat.

Im happy to say that despite my trials with Irish in the classroom when i was a young fella I am now learing Irish with a group of Americans here in the Dallas area. its the first time I"ve gotten together with a group like this to try and learn as opposed to just trying to learn by my self ( a much harder task). Also to all you Americans (and others) out there. thanks for your enthuaism for the language. Its good to know that people give a damn! keep it up :)

niall

" The only one I knew who was truly excited about the language was from the North! "

Usually people in the North are more enthusiastic because of the situation up there. They were more in touch with their culture than down south seemed to be.
But now with the influx of several hundred thousand immigrant we can see lots more people realising that our culture could be eroded and now lots more 'southerners' are wanting to speak Irish.

When I was in Ireland recently I picked up a copy of the Leaving Cert textbook + CD called Draíocht and I was rather impressed. We didn't have CD's back when I went to school and - ní ag scaoileadh rúin atá mé - the audio dimension is an essential element of any language tuition especially when it contains clearly spoken hard-edged topical content.

School turned most people off Irish, it is true, but school turned most people off EVERYTHING! At least, back in the good-old, bad-old days. However Irish was always the easy target and the most popular scape-goat when parents were explaining why junior did not go along to greater things and become another Cloch-amháin. Because they failed in Irish!!
(Dúcheist: Cad é / Cé hé Cloch-amháin?).

But if the truth be known, more often than not, lack of achievement in Irish, like lack of achievement in many other things, had more to do with that dreaded "eff-word" than anything else.
(Dúcheist eile: Cad é an "eff-word" imeaglach uafásach sin?)

Maybe the Celtic Tiger has purged Irish people of their inferiority complex which was one of the other root causes of the rejection of the language.

Another problem is that those peoples who have English as a mother tongue are, generally speaking, notoriously bad at other languages. It is difficult for the native speaker of such an apparently "grammarless" language to intellectually take on the Great Inflected Ones. Simple English, which is the language of most people (sorry), is simple, but simple German, or simple Irish for that matter, are not easy at all. Some of these monolinguists even go so far as to pride themselves on their linguistic ineptitude as if this pride were the arrogance of superiority. It takes commitment and self-confidence not to bowled over by that juggernaut of ignorance.

I think a lot of people in Ireland like to kid themselves about how comparatively better the situation is regarding efficacy and hence relevance vis-a-vis the teaching of German and French in secondary school. After five years of French most people didn't even have the oul' doux ou trois mots they (hardly) had in Irish. If you want to work and live in Germany, for example, school German won't give you a head start worth talking about; in fact, I know people who could never rid themselves of the false pronunciations they picked up in the alma mater - so it turned out to be more a hindrance than a help in the long run.

You can say that Irish is irrelevant and that the National Gallery should be converted to something useful like a food-processing plant (very few would dare to say the latter), but in the end it will be the endeavours of a (hopefully) growing minority that will carry the language forward.

So much my measured analysis (or was it a tantrum?).

Concerning an "educational approach": have you ever heard the story called "Der alte Fritz und die Kartoffeln"?


Kluge Leute können sich dumm stellen. Das Gegenteil ist schwieriger. (Kurt Tucholsky)

Is féidir leis an té cliste ligean air go bhfuil sé ina dhalldramán. Is é a mhalairt atá níos deacra.

(Message edited by ormondo on September 27, 2008)

(Message edited by ormondo on September 27, 2008)

(Message edited by ormondo on September 27, 2008)

quote:

Another problem is that those peoples who have English as a mother tongue are, generally speaking, notoriously bad at other languages. It is difficult for the native speaker of such an apparently "grammarless" language to intellectually take on the Great Inflected Ones. Simple English, which is the language of most people (sorry), is simple, but simple German, or simple Irish for that matter, are not easy at all. Some of these monolinguists even go so far as to pride themselves on their linguistic ineptitude as if this pride were the arrogance of superiority. It takes commitment and self-confidence not to bowled over by that juggernaut of ignorance.

Nonsense. There's a great deal more to speaking a language than just learning morphology. The more you learn about syntax, the more you discover that the grammar of English is anything but simple. If you think otherwise, take any aspect of it--the definite or indefinite article, say, or the progressive tenses--and try to formulate a simple rule stating when it is proper to use them and when not to.

It's always a fallacy to look for explanations in the structure of a language when the outcomes are quite readily accounted for by social factors. In this case, it's the status of English as the de facto lingua franca of the world (particular the Western part of it) that's chiefly to blame. As my friend Mark Rosenfelder points out, learning a language--any language--is hard and people only do it when they have to. Native English speakers aren't under much pressure to learn other languages and haven't been for generations now; it's this basic lack of motivation which best explains the poor integration of foreign languages into the curriculum and the failure of students to master them.

quote:

Concerning an "educational approach": have you ever heard the story called "Der alte Fritz und die Kartoffeln"?

Niemals. Erzähl sie uns mal.

"-the definite or indefinite article, say, or the progressive tenses--and try to formulate a simple rule stating when it is proper to use them and when not to."

Aye, I do tell people here that usage of the article and use/non-use of the progressive are very important, but to not avail...

"Nonsense. There's a great deal more to speaking a language than just learning morphology."

It's an interesting theory you quote there, but sometimes empirical evidence makes a nonsense of the best theories. My empirical evidence consists of that which people from countries that were both non-English and non-German speaking have told me down the years about the relative facility of learning the aforementioned languages after they had moved here to Germany, as well as what the schoolkids here are always saying. (German being in the same zone of difficulty as Irish, for example.)

But what I was really trying to get across, is dócha, concerns the all-important initial stages in learning a particular language.

Surmounting the initial threshold without succumbing to discouragement is easier if you encounter a language like English with very few mutations. On the other hand, for an English-speaker trying to learn another language the encounter with a hitherto unknown multiple of mutations for a particular verb, noun or adjective can be fatally daunting.

That was really my point. It is all about getting past the first hurdle or two and the morphological hurdle has been many a man's Beecher Brook.

The bottom rung on the ladder is easier to attain in English than most other languages and that works wonders as regards the encouragement it generates towards attaining a fluency in simple English. Of course, this is deceptive as regards further up the slope. For example, nearly all Germans would understand all the words in a Der Spiegel article, but only about 30% of native English-speakers could make their way through a quality broadsheet without rushing to the dictionary more times than it would be fun. And as regards the simple present tense and the continuous present tense, I think native English speakers have the secret to that one hidden somewhere in their navels - and it doesn't seem to be transferrable.

Agus cad faoin Gaeilge? An bhfuil sí sin inaistrithe?

Is cuma. Der alte Fritz wird's schon richten. Ach bí foighneach!

(Message edited by ormondo on September 30, 2008)

"And as regards the simple present tense and the continuous present tense, I think native English speakers have the secret to that one hidden somewhere in their navels"

Well I think there are a number of reliable rules as for when to use the difference, but there seems to be a mental block, for I've found people will not even listen to them -it's so profound I'm not really sure what to say when ask, but to give em a few rules

When Frederick the Great first tried to introduce the potato to stabilize the food supply the Prussian farmers refused to have anything to do with the strange tuber. He eventually came up with a plan in the form of planting big fields of potatoes and having them guarded day and night by contingents of soldiers and noblemen. The populace soon developed the suspicion, and then the firm conviction, that the potato was a very valuable crop after all. So the upshot was that 30% of the population began eating potatoes every day and 35% three times a week.

So the obvious lesson to be learned here with regards to making 30% of the Irish population native-level speakers is to be more restrictive about whom you spend the teaching resources on.

After a certain short number of years of tuition in Irish schoolkids would be tested as regards their further prospects. At this stage about 35%, I reckon, would be dropped completely from Irish tuition. Of the rest, those with the best prospects, 30% I would estimate, would be given the best resouces and be taught separately from the remaining group who would eventually have a smattering of the language.

Students in the elite group not attaining native-level proficiency after a set period and those not maintaining it once achieved would be liable to be relegated. If students wished to go to a level beneath their level of proficiency they would be free to do so. In this regard it would be voluntary, so that nobody ever again would feel compelled to believe for the rest of their tormented days that Irish was “rammed down their throats”.

The state would set up elite institutions like the École Nationale d'Administration (ÉNA) in which trilinguality incorporating perfect Irish/English bilinguality as a prerequiste would be compulsory.

From the perspective of the present moment, grantedly, this might appear to be radical, even cruel. Such a system would definitely provide the “relevance” that many find is missing under the present system. The ambition that would be ignited would outweigh any of the negatives.

The romantic dream of universal bi-lingualism in Ireland has long since been a dead duck.

You see, you'll always have the 35% who won't eat the spuds. Und der Alte Fritz wusste Bescheid.

(Message edited by ormondo on October 01, 2008)

What you need is in one word: marketing

Are you suggesting that creating a snob appeal to Irish proficiency would promote the language among rank and file Irishmen and Irishwomen?

Consider that snob appeal may not be as universal as you may think it is!

Seems to me your proposed approach would go over like gangbusters in England. In Ireland, maybe not so much. Just a thought.

"As my friend Mark Rosenfelder points out, learning a language--any language--is hard"

One thing that is not often entered into this discussion is the impact of brain development -the baby has billons of unwired neurons and over time these gt more fixed; also, different sets of neurons in different part of the brain become mylinated -unmylinated, and they can't operate as such. They mylinate in sequences too.

Such things must have an effect in comparison to adults

I'd love to see a country where exclusivity is not considered special, a Dhomhnaill!

The evidence of fee paying schools in Ireland (even though free secondary school do academically as well or better in most cases) shows that exclusivity does attract a premium.

I agree with the broad sweep of Ormoondos approach - and I'd like to see a consolidated Irish medium education system from preschool to post doctorate level.

I intend to tell the Minister so on 14 Oct in Buswells!

In order to maintain the standing of the Irish language as the oldest written vernacular in Europe it is necessary that two things happen.

1) The Gaeltachts will endure.

2) A community of 500.000 - 1.000.000 native-level / near native-level speakers will come into existence throughout the rest of the island.

I imagine that 1) will be the case if 2) becomes the case. It's eventually a choice between the rest of the country being either a terminally eroding or a benignly reinforcing influence on the Gaeltachts.

The opportunities exist for the language to climb the slope to remaining the oldest written vernacular in Europe. However, the only passable routes upslope might be the heretical ones - from today's perspective.

There are plenty of statistics available to aid in the decision-making process.

"Among the total 55,589 candidates who took the Leaving Certificate this year, only 44,660 sat a traditional Irish exam and, of those, only 13,994 took the subject at higher level." (Gaelport.com/Gearrthóga Laethúla/Indo)

The hitherto employed Gießkannenprinzip has proven itself to be a downslope stategy. It is better to focus resources, thereby developing incentives and creating the buzz of achievement.


The Government is in the happy position to effect direct action in two areas:

1) The School System
It's simply a waste of time trying to teach Irish to that portion of schoolchildren who, for whatever reason, will never learn it. Concentrate the resources on the willing and able. Give them real and tangible incentives like better opportunities and recognizable status - after all, not alone in Irish but in other subjects, will the cream of the crop come forth from within their midst. Shield them in the initial stages from the demotivating and negative influence of the unwilling. And, in the process, spare the unwilling from the torment of the effort (the "eff"-word) of learning Irish - it might engender some tolerance.

2) The Public Adminstration
Make Irish the principle language of administation and English the auxiliary language. Set time limits (not target dates) and start from the top and work down (mar is eol: the best upslope strategy).
"As from 01.01.2014 candidates for the positions of Head of Department etc will possess native-level bilingual functionality and will conduct everyday business through the medium of Irish." Voilà!

Irish is the principle langauge of the civil service (Which is neither!)

Making it the principal language will be trickier.

Seán Ó Cuireáin suggested adopting something like the Patton principles for the PSNI - recruiting fixed quotas of fluent capable Irish speakers to the civil service to redress the damage of removing the Irish language requirement.

Ormondo, caith súil ar an bplécháipeis agus cuir do thuairim faoina mbráid.

http://www.plean2028.ie

Cad é an difear idir principle agus principal? - níl ann ach caighdeánachas!

Ach i ndáiríre, is é príomhphrionsabal agamsa litriú ceart a úsáid.

Táim buíoch as an nasc.

As to what method is used to teach Irish in the Irish Education system, if the question refers to the teaching of the language in government schools you'd have to wonder.

I've just read Daithí Mac Cárthaigh's speech to the CnaG Ard Fheis in Tralee. His comments about the enmity of senior civil servants within the Education bureaucracy itself to the language are disturbing to say the least. After 80 or so years of political independence it seems there are still civil service mandarins who regard the holding of an Anglocentric contempt for the traditional language as being compatible with loyalty to the state that employs them. Is it any wonder then that the Gaelscoil movement has flourished?

Seanfhear

"the enmity of senior civil servants within the Education bureaucracy itself to the language are disturbing to say the least. "

The civil service can be seen as an extension of the past into the present, from the Anglo-Irish state into the present. The reality is that the same old script of Anglo-centric prestige is being played out.

At the end of the day, what has happened over the last 80 years is a disgrace

As to what method is used to teach Irish in the Irish Education system, if the question refers to the teaching of the language in government schools you'd have to wonder.

My question did center on the teaching of Irish in the government-run educational system. I should have made that more clear at the outset.

"At the end of the day, what has happened over the last 80 years is a disgrace"

This is precisely what prompted me to ask this question to begin with. It's unimaginable that an entire country could be going on a century of independence with Irish as the titular "first official language" and still be graduating students year in and year out with Irish proficiency such as it is.

Now, having come out with that remark, I need to apologize instantly because I'm emphatically not trying to start a row, or much less be some kind of hypocritical pontificator -- given my status as an American and the fact that my own Irish still sucks after years of on-again-off-again effort, I'm obviously in no position to criticize. I'm truly just trying to understand dynamic at play here.

quote:

The Revival failed, in my opinion, because it was an aspiration rather than a realistic objective.

quote:

It is too easy to blame the State for the failure of the revival. That the state was negligent, unimaginative, authoritarian, obstructive, piecemeal, hostile and downright stupid at times, is beyond question. Even if it had been the opposite of all those things, the revival would have failed because the people in English speaking communities did not want to revert to Irish.

- Donncha Ó hÉallaithe

Yes, the did not want to revert to Irish...but the thing everybody forgets is that they didn't want to adopt english, either.

but the brits created a society in which people "wanted" to switch to english - and I put want in quotes because even that wasn't true desire...they *needed* to switch to english in order to have a decent life (but the "choice" was theirs)

The same could be used (and i would argue that anything short of it would be doomed to failure) to create a bilingual Irish-english, Polish-english or Mandarin-english society today.

There just needs to be the political will and "liathróidí" (béarlacas used on purpose) on the part of the government to do it...

Ormondo's elite approach is interesting, I won't say anything for or against it currently but it is interesting. I do still however agree with the Antaine method, adding a new year of Irish medium schooling to each learning establishment each year starting with the kindergardten equivelent or earlier and moving from there. This is a more equality-based approach and, at least in public school, equality is crutial. Private schools naturally have more leeway to do what they like, take who they want and encourage particular skillsets.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

Ormondo's elite approach is interesting...

The elite part of the "elite approach" would be solely an expedient and has nothing to to with convictions of elitist per se.

(Message edited by ormondo on October 07, 2008)

Oh, I got that, too. I don't think she meant it in a pejorative way. Focus limited resources on the elite to get the biggest bang for your buck and provide competition and perception of higher value along the way.

I think Ormondo's on to something... focus resources to those that wnat to learn it. put money into all irish schools from kindergarten up...

Ta an ceart ag Antaine, I didn't mean any pejorative things at all, just called it that because other people had and it was quick and easy.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Níor bhain mé míthuiscint as. Ní raibh mé ach ag soiléirú ionas nach mbainfadh té eile míthuiscint as an focal "elitist".

You're right, it's the handiest way to describe it.

My main point, I suppose, is that after all the experience gathered over the best part of a century it should be dawning on some people within the educational system that learning Irish as a second language requires more than a certain percentage of the learners hitherto are able, or willing, to invest in it. It's a high performance zone requiring dedication and interest even as prerequisites.

Even more is required if the language is going to retain sufficient post-school momentum to create and sustain a survival-bearing minority of viable size. And incentives and reward are the legitimate fuels of any successful booster rocket.

After all, what is and has been the whole point of the exercise? Back in the 1920s it might have been perceived to be unreasonable, even unjust, not to attempt to have everyone "relearn" Irish. Well, that hasn't worked and the "idealism" has proven counterproductive.

Is it the case that a sort of pious martyrdom of a language doomed to terminal decline because the heirs and potential bearers thereof refuse to jettison a too-good-to-be-true idealism long proven as feckless as it could be fatal is preferable to fresh and radical approaches from outside the comfort-zone?

The type of system that I would propose would, after all, be no way as brutal as the elitism that has always been practiced - and accepted - when it comes to sport and selecting the school teams.

Is maith liom a bhfuil le rá agat, Ormondo.