Looks like that the Aranmore island off the Donegal coast is on its last legs:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0912/arranmore.html

"He said it is particularly important at times like this that we focus on creating unemployment and encouraging entrepreneurship."

Actually, it sounds like they have enough unemployment and shouldn't be thinking about creating any more ;-)

jokes aside, they can appoint all the "officers" they like and it won't make a bit of difference. If the government considers the area a cultural resource worth saving, open or move an office of an Irish speaking department there...it will create employment opportunities while not encouraging the islanders to speak english to take advantage of them. If it is of sufficient size, it will also attract fluent speakers to move there (for employment in that department), boosting the population while not diluting it with english speakers.

Heh...but, of course, none of that will ever happen...

Téann díom a thuiscint go scríobhfaí 'Aranmore' agus 'Inishmann' don dá áit a bhfuil Árainn Mhór agus Inis Meáin.

Nach bhfuil sé in am a leithéid a fhágáil san áit a bhfuair tú iad a Thrigger? Inis Meáin is ea Inis Meáin agus Árainn Mhór is ea Árainn Mhór, agus feictear dom go bhfeileann siad go breá don dá áit atá i gceist leis na hainmneacha sain.

quote:

A quarter of islanders are unemployed and there is 56% male unemployment.

Tá an chuma air go mbíonn 106% de na mná ag obair más ea - sin nó go mbíonn na fir in easnamh acu. Ní saol crua go saol oileánaigh mná.

Unfortunately, Inis Meáin and Toraigh seem to be heading in the same direction which is especially sad as they are stronger Irish speaking islands than Árainn Mhór.

I was told that the fishing industry has all but collapsed on Toraigh when I stayed there. There's some resentment from people on the mainland in Gaoth Dobhair and elsewhere in the fíor-ghaeltacht due to the grants islanders get above and beyond the rest.

There are very few children and almost no single women on Inis Meáin.

That was one of the reasons An Blascaod Mór was abandoned, for example.

It would be a shame if the only Irish speaking offshore island left in twenty years time is Inis Mór.

Well Danny, the sad thing to say is to people go before its too late.

It would be a crying shame if these islands go, especially if Irish is still the main language...

If you exclude south Conamara's Ceantar na nOileán (Islands district), then there's only about three or four islands where Irish still has the upper hand. Certainly Árainn Mhór, Acaill and. Cléire don't fall into that category anymore.

The island of Inis Bigil (Inishbiggle) right across from the northside of Acaill still has native speakers. The problem is that the population is now a mere 15-20 individuals, mostly elderly people. A report on the closure of the post office was on Nuacht TG4 in the past month or so. I understand the school has been closed for awhile. Not sure if they have plans to evacuate the people per se, or just let time do its thing.

I was surprised to read in Coimisiún na Gaeltachta 1926 (bilingual book on the Gaeltacht Commission 1926..HIGHLY RECOMMENDED if you're interested in language shift) that English was widely spoken in the village of Cill Rónáin on Inis Mór even before 1900. It was attributed to many of the teachers operating there. That's according to multiple accounts given to the commission in 1925. It also talked about many kids on Inis Oírr coming to school with little or no Irish because their parents didn't want to pass it on. This is back in the 1920s ffs. On the other hand, the accounts regarding Inis Meáin seemed to indicate that English was largely unknown there at that time.

http://coislife.ie/books/academic/dich2.htm

As far as I know Cléire isn't even in the Gaeltacht, funny that Inishturk is right near Acaill and has a much smaller population and isn't in the Gaeltacht, I wonder if old people speak Irish there...

Irish is still widely spoken on Inis Mór with the exception of Kilronan as there is so much tourist the locals get out numbered.

Apparently Irish still has the upper hand in Inis Meáin, as mostly everyone speaks Irish together if not everyone. What is in Inis Meáin anyway? I am planning on going this summer, is here many shops, pubs etc? I'd love to go and do an Irish course there, if there is one...

If you exclude south Conamara's Ceantar na nOileán (Islands district), then...

Cén fáth go ndéanfá sin?

"If you exclude the regions where Irish is safe, Irish is in real trouble."
Yawn.

Is not preservation better than revival any day? Parallel to attempting to revive the language artificially it is being allowed to die naturally. Is that the story? A farcical situation!

Cléire is indeed in the official gaeltacht as it stands now. Ó Cuív announced plans to redraw the borders back in 2003 or so, but nothing has changed since. I imagine it would remain in the gaeltacht.

There's a pub and shop on Inis Meáin. Highly recommend you go there just to hear the Irish even.

"If you exclude the regions where Irish is safe, Irish is in real trouble."
Yawn.

The only people to blame for the death of Irish as a community language (if that indeed happens, hopefully not) will be Irish speakers themselves. American hobbyists will not decide its fate.

Ah sorry, I know Cléire is in the Gaeltacht. I thought you was talking about the Clare island!

Irish won't die out in Toraigh or Inis Meáin/Aran islands, it will only die out if the island becomes uninhabited, IMO anyway.

So much respect out there for the language. Not a fada in sight on the main webpage. Ah well. They must be following the Irish Independent's lead.

:/

Irish isn't under any threat of death. By that I mean, it's not under any threat of extinction. There will always be networks of Irish speakers as well as individual Irish speaking families both within the current gaeltachtaí and outside of it. At least indefinitely.

What is under threat, of course, is the status of Irish as the main language of communities. There must be less than two dozen remaining at this point. If we reach the point where Irish becomes a more or less private language based on families and networks, the calls for getting rid of compulsion and Irish as an EU language etc will increase tenfold.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on September 21, 2008)

quote:

American hobbyists will not decide its fate.

I never said they would. I don't think you got my point. I am just bemused, and a little bit annoyed, by this everlasting despondency which specifically excludes good or satisfactory news first, and then deplores the fact there is only bad news left. Let us be glum if we like but let us not be tautologically glum!

(Message edited by abigail on September 21, 2008)

I don't think there is any good news to be told, really...

I'm not despondent. I'm an interested observer. I'm a realist.

In fairness, my post about my travels over on IGTF includes plenty of positives. On one of my last nights in Dún Chaoin we had an Irish speaking family from Cavan which included two stylish teenage daughters who spoke nothing but Irish with their parents and amongst themselves when they weren't around. That was a great thing to hear. That's just one example.

I don't recall you ever posting anything critical of the "language movement" or the current state of Irish. Perhaps I should accuse you of being naive or in denial?

I'll gladly start a thread dedicated to discussing the positive developments.

My replies to this thread are completely relevant to the topic.

What's more, I'd say that around one third of the Irish guests we had chose to speak Irish with the warden once they realised she was fluent. They ranged from locals who dropped by, to fluent speakers, to people who came for classes in the area, to people with broken school Irish.

One third over a period of two months. That's a good sign.

Another positive from me, when I was in Derrybeg I heard a lot of Irish being used in public in the shop I heard 2 young girls speaking nothing but Irish, all the fishing men ag caint as Gaeilge, all the boat men on the harbour speaking Irish.

Same for Tory Island too, but the people who came out of the boat (holiday makers) out numbered locals in the hotel bar.

Nice. I remember you saying that you were planning on going there. Did you post a trip report or something similar here or on IGTF?

Out of curiosity, why do you refer to those places by their now-unofficial, English forms? What was the point of the Gaeltacht Placenames Order in the Official Languages Act if people continue to use the Anglicised versions? (more of a gripe about the media, not you...). What's the point of having Irish only signs if people are looking at maps that give prominence to the English forms...or only show the English version??

When the Indo refuses to print the official name of the state in the first official language correctly, you know there's a lack of respect out there. What's Eire? What's Bus Eireann? Who's Darragh O Se?

I posted a small report on IGT nothing that special.

Sorry a chara, I will make sure that I use the Irish version of Gaeltacht places for now on, I normally do.

quote:

I don't recall you ever posting anything critical of the "language movement" or the current state of Irish. Perhaps I should accuse you of being naive or in denial?

Perhaps you might - particularly when you see me going out of my way to exclude bad news from consideration and then exulting that what's left is good, all good.

In fact, I don't post very much (and hardly at all in English) about the state of the language or about the language movement. Other things to be doing, I reckon - that, and being an outsider I don't often feel particularly qualified to advise the Irish on their doings anyway.
I'll speak Irish myself till I'm blue in the face, encourage and help other learners where I can, and that'll be my contribution to her well-being.

Maith an cailín! Ná bíodh gruaim orainn, labhraimís!

Agus nach bhfuil roinnt mhaith oileáiníní gaelacha bunaithe go dtí seo ar an idirlíon agus iad go beo bríomhar?

Nach amhlaidh gur oileánrach gaelach (gaelic archipelago) é!

(Message edited by ormondo on September 21, 2008)

Fair enough. That's honourable. But I don't recall going into threads and taking little shots at you for being interested in the minutiae of grammar, for example. Unlike you.

And unlike you, I've lived, worked and traveled extensively in Ireland. I'm here now. I've spent time in various parts of the Gaeltacht. I have an interest in the sociolinguistic situation of the present Gaeltacht. I'm fascinated with the history of the language and language shift. I'm not "advising" anyone. If anything, I merely enjoy discussing the findings of people who know more about the situation on the ground than any of us here. (the recent gaeltacht study carried out by NUI, being a recent example.) Why not critise them for being glum. Why not criticise them for having the audacity of saying the entire Gaeltacht is on the verge of collapse within 20 years unless more Irish speakers get back to natural, intergenerational transmission of the language? Do I have to post something positive before discussing the topic on hand?

I don't think I should keep getting accused of being pessimistic just because I'm interested in these topics. Why not have a go at Brian Ó Cuív for saying (back in 1949) that the Irish people deserved to see Irish die if they weren't willing to support it unequivocally. Why not rip into Feargal Ó Béarra from NUI Galway (a native speaker from Cois Fharraige) for saying the following?

"The other main difference between this period of change and all others is that the Irish language is at death’s door. Some, like myself, would contend that the language is moribund. Many – such as Government ministers – will even attempt to (though they should not) deny that the Gaeltacht itself is doomed to die. Think of this: how can a language which needs its own official Act and its own Language Commissioner to protect it from the government of the State in which it is the first official language, not be doomed to die?"

"There are not enough occasions on which to interact with other Irish speakers and thereby pick up new phrases and words. On top of this, there are not enough people who speak Irish well enough from whom you would want to learn anything. This problem of lack of exposure is further compounded by the fact that there is no tradition of reading in the Irish language among Irish speakers. The only people who read Irish are academics or writers. Native speakers of Irish do not read their own language. There is no Bild-Zeitung in Irish."
http://www.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=67&p=462542

You can actually speak Irish fluently or near-fluently. You know the grammar. I don't. I can't help learners. I've no interest in speaking a language for the sake of speaking a language. Especially if I'm going to be thousands of kilometres away by next year. To each their own.

Maith an cailín! Ná bíodh gruaim orainn, labhraimís!

Agus nach bhfuil roinnt mhaith oileáiníní gaelacha bunaithe go dtí seo ar an idirlíon agus iad go beo bríomhar?

Nach amhlaidh gur oileánrach gaelach (gaelic archipelago) é


Please translate.

(Not literal)

Well done (Abigail)!

Let's not be depressed, let's speak (Irish)!

And have not a number of "small gaelic islands" been founded on the internet already?

You could call that the Gaelic Archipeligo.

''Gaeltacht is on the verge of collapse within 20 years''

They have been saying this for donkeys years though and the Gaeltacht is still here, as you been around the Gaeltacht a lot you can tell us a chara, can you see this happening in 20 years?

Well, it's all there in the report. They predict that the present fíor-ghaeltachtaí will give in to the linguistic pressure they are under and in 15-20 years time, will be similar to the "stronger" breac-ghaeltachtaí of today. Perhaps similar to places like Ráth Chairn in Meath, Árainn Mhór off the coast of Donegal or Cúil Aodha in Cork. Communities where Irish is no longer the main language, but where it's still widely spoken, relatively speaking.

http://www.pobail.ie/en/AnGhaeltacht/LinguisticStudyoftheGaeltacht/

When the modern Gaeltacht boundaries were established around 1926, they were divided into two categories. Fíor-ghaeltacht (80%+ population Irish speakers) and breac-ghaeltacht (25%-79%).

The problem was that it was based more on language ability and not on language behaviour. So what you had were certain areas which had been mostly Irish speaking around 1890 or 1900, but which were rapidly abandoning Irish in the 1920s. There are parts of the official gaeltacht TODAY which shouldn't have been left in the 1956 border revision. Over half the present Gaeltacht is overwhelmingly English speaking. It makes a mockery of the whole concept and just feeds the perception that Gaeltacht people are spongers.

There have been plenty of articles and studies relating to the decline of late.
http://anghaeltacht.net/ctg/080323foinse.html

I have a lot of respect for Donncha Ó hÉallaithe who actually tells it like it is. Sometimes it seems like there isn't a sense of urgency. It's now or never.

Personally, I think Irish can be stabilised or even strengthened if the collective will is there. There's nothing stopping people from using Irish. There's every incentive to use it.

But I think the more likely scenario is that it will largely relegated to a language based on social networks and families. It would seem there just aren't enough young families raising their kids wholly or partly through Irish. South Conamara will likely be the strongest region then as it is today.

Technically is this the only places where Irish is still spoken as a community language? (Gaeltacht 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gaeltacht_2007.jpg

Looking at the blog which is the source for this, this seems to be a map of electoral districts where more than 80 [I think] % are daily speakers of Irish according to the census - category A according to the Gaeltacht Commissions report.

It depends on your defintion of "community language".

Also, be aware that "electoral districts" are quite large, and there might be a village which speaks almost only Irish included in an area where Irish has gone otherwise - then it wouldn't show up on this map.

I think that if people are leaving for higher education and greater job oportunities, then they should build a college on the island full of Gaeilge speakers and for Gaeilge speakers.

A Shieiráil, how realistic is that for an island with a total population of less than 1,000 people? It seems to me that distance learning would be a more viable option.

quote:

Fair enough. That's honourable. But I don't recall going into threads and taking little shots at you for being interested in the minutiae of grammar, for example. Unlike you.

Here we go again. I thought I had made this quite clear above but evidently not.

It is not your taking an interest in these matters I object to. It is not your posting about them. It is the way you specifically exclude good news in order to focus on the bad. The islands of Ceantar na nOileán are not less insular or less Gaeltacht-y than the other Gaeltacht islands; there is no reason to exclude them from consideration, except that Irish is not in danger there yet. But you have your heart set on painting a bleak picture, and why let the odd scrap of good news get in the way of that? Brush it under the rug and let's get on with the doom'n'gloom. That is not "just realism", that is cynicism.

You didn't do this in your travelogue on IGT, and I enjoyed reading that very much. For some reason though when it comes to other people's statistics you seem to home in on the dire and the dreadful, and then act as if that were all the news there were. It's unbalanced, and I'm in favor of having things balanced, so I speak up occasionally.

If you feel my portrayals of Irish grammar are unbalanced you are certainly welcome to take issue with them. I'll deserve no less. Again though, at issue here is not the fact that you do take an interest in Gaeltacht sociolinguistics - everybody oughta have a hobby, and if that's yours fair play to you - but the negative bias with which you report on it. I don't have much to say about the topic myself so I don't say much about it. I do care about it though, and it bothers me to see the narrative getting so lopsided.

quote:

You can actually speak Irish fluently or near-fluently. You know the grammar. I don't. I can't help learners. I've no interest in speaking a language for the sake of speaking a language. Especially if I'm going to be thousands of kilometres away by next year. To each their own.

Sorry. I had thought you were an active learner, which is why I occasionally address simple questions to you in Irish, as above. Sorry, will try not to do that again. (It need hardly be said that general remarks are a different animal. I'll continue to post those in both languages variously.)

quote:

Sorry. I had thought you were an active learner, which is why I occasionally address simple questions to you in Irish, as above. Sorry, will try not to do that again.

Anois tá mearbhall orm. I thought the whole point of Daltaí na Gaeilge was to promote active learning. If someone just wants to discuss the sociolinguistics of Irish in English, well, there are countless other places they can do so on the Internet, aren't there? Mura bhfuil aon spéis agat i labhairt na Gaeilge, a Dhanny, cad chuige go bhfuil tú anso?

I agree with Danny2007 that South Conamara will be at the level of RathCairn or Cúil Aodha in 20 years time ie in the 50's per cent Irish speaking. Also Northwest Donegal will likely be the same percentage wise. There will be no other residual Gaeltachts left. It all boils down to intergenerational transmission. I agree wholeheartedly with Donncha ó hÉalaithe that trying to revive Irish in the Galltacht is impossible and a complete waste of time. Trying to preserve the Gaeltacht is where it's at and it's eminently possible to stabilise the current usage levels.

Ní chuireann sé sin iontas orm a Ghuevara, tú a bheith ar aon fhocal le Danny. Tá leithscéal aigesean áfach, tharla a bheith gan Ghaeilg is a bheith ar intinn aige fanacht amhlaidh. Tá Gaeilg mhaith agat féin, bail ó Dhia ort, is léir ar do chuid postanna thall is abhus, ach tosaíonn roinnt de do chuid sleachta le 'I think .. I really think ... I agree ... , sea, i mBéarla.

Is mó d'iarmhairt na sochtheangeolaíochta Gaeilge ná d'aon ní eile an duairceas so go léir agus ní léire é in áit ar bith ach i sliocht Danny a scríobh nach mbeidh sé ag foghlaim Gaeilge ar chor ar bith chor ar bith! Ní bhfaighidh sé an deis theacht go hÉirinn, deir sé.

Ní fiú a dhath galar na cloíteachta. Ní thugann sé leis ach deora, agus is beag agam an caoineadh so go léir mar is beag liom an duairceas as a n-eascraíonn sé. Molaim duit an duairceas a fhágáil in do dhiaidh agus gabháil amach ag teagasc Gaeilge istoíche nó a theacht ag cuidiú le daoine abhus murar féidir leat éalú as an teach / oifig. Tá barraíocht le déanamh le bheith ag caoineadh faoinar féidir titim amach i gceantar na nOileán, i ndeisceart Chonamara, in Oileán Árann, ar Thoraigh, i nGaoth Dobhair, i ...
Mura bhfuil tú ag cur fút i gCeantar na nOileán, cén bhrí a bheith ag cur do chraicinn díot in áit eile ar domhan faoi. Déan ar féidir leat a dhéanamh mar a bhfuil tú agus dá ndéanfadh gach éinne againn amhlaidh san áit a bhfuil muidinne, tiocfaidh tairbhe éigin as in áiteanna éagsúla.

Cuimhnigh; mura bhfuil againn ach fiche bliain nó mar sain le tionchar a imirt go náisiúnta, is mithid do chách cromadh chun oibre láithreach.
Déanadh gach aon duine againn rud éigin amháin ar a laghad don Ghaeilg gach lá!

Would Smac_muirí or someone else kindly summarise the last post. This is an interesting discussion and I'd like to keep up with it. My name is also mentioned so perhaps there are some points in there I can respond to.

Trigger/Aonghus,
I've never seen that particular map before but it certainly does seem like the Map for Category A areas included in the Report, although re-created.

"The islands of Ceantar na nOileán are not less insular or less Gaeltacht-y than the other Gaeltacht islands; there is no reason to exclude them from consideration, except that Irish is not in danger there yet."

Actually, I was referring to offshore islands which is why I excluded Ceantar na nOileán. I should have explained that at the time. The very fact Ceantar na nOileán is still a vibrant area is a positive in itself! Offshore islands face challenges that interconnected islands connected to the mainland by bridges don't.

"If someone just wants to discuss the sociolinguistics of Irish in English, well, there are countless other places they can do so on the Internet, aren't there?"

But I don't just want to do that. However, it seems to me a forum dedicated to the Irish language would be an ideal place. Presumably everyone here is interested in Irish in some form. Of course Daltaí is about learning to speak the language above all else. As it should be. But I don't see why discussions relevant to Irish should be off-limits. Would you rather try to silence people?

"It depends on your defintion of "community language".

Also, be aware that "electoral districts" are quite large, and there might be a village which speaks almost only Irish included in an area where Irish has gone otherwise - then it wouldn't show up on this map."

True. Although most ED populations as far as the fíor-ghaeltachtaí are concerned have populations well under 2,000. In fact, most of the EDs in the whole official gaeltacht have populations 3+ of under 1,000.

"I had thought you were an active learner, which is why I occasionally address simple questions to you in Irish, as above."
Well, I guess they are still too advanced for me. I suppose I was an active learner earlier this year. But after some months I decided it wasn't worth the time, money and effort to become fluent in a language with so few speakers. Sin é. Keep in mind that I'm not someone who will be living out their days in Ireland. If I was, I would keep at it for however many years it would take to become reasonably fluent. The idea of a virtual language community doesn't do it for me. So I suppose you could say I'm not working towards an end goal of full fluency. More the basics.

"It is the way you specifically exclude good news in order to focus on the bad."
Examples? And perhaps you could include some recent good news from the Gaeltacht.

If, for example, the majority of the "news" regarding Irish in the Gaeltacht is negative, then that should be reflected. But I've certainly posted some positives on other threads here and on IGTF. Not sure that I won't to post them each and every time I discuss something which could be construed as being negative.

Feel free to post more positives for my benefit.

Of course Daltaí is about learning to speak the language above all else. As it should be. But I don't see why discussions relevant to Irish should be off-limits. Would you rather try to silence people?

Many thanks for that classic illustration of an either-or fallacy. If I dare to question why you, who by your own admission no longer have any serious interest in learning to speak Irish, are hanging around on a board whose primary mission is to promote the learning of Irish, well, then, I must be in favour of censorship, right?

Like most of the people here, I didn't seek out the Daltaí site so I could talk about Irish but so that I could talk in Irish. That doesn't interest you. Fair enough, I guess--until it starts to interfere with stated purpose of the board.

Is a forum dedicated to the Irish language an inappropriate place to discuss the Irish language? Any suggestions for a more appropriate place? You mentioned "countless other places" earlier on.

As for interfering, I've never butted into a thread about grammar, vocab etc and started posting about the state of the gaeltacht. Nor will I be doing that in the future.

"Welcome to the Daltaí na Gaeilge ***Discussion*** Boards."

I wonder how many threads will pop up if I search for words like "compulsion" "gaeltacht" or "traditional music"?

They all have their place.

Seem reasonable?

From the welcome page:

Fáilte go dtí ár gCláriomrá. Tá an t-acra seo curtha ar fáil ag Daltaí na Gaeilge chun an Ghaeilge a spreagadh; agus tá súil againn go mbainfidh tú taitneamh as. Má's tosaitheoir, cainteoir líofa nó cainteoir dúchais thú, glac páirt agus fáilte.

Welcome to the Daltaí na Gaeilge Discussion Boards. The Discussion Boards are provided by Daltaí na Gaeilge for the enjoyment and advancement of the Irish language. Whether a novice, advanced or native speaker, feel free to join in.

Would Smac_muirí or someone else kindly summarise the last post.

-- Cén fáth? ...



This is an interesting discussion and I'd like to keep up with it.

--- Ní leor sain le go gcuirfinn Béarla ar an méid a scríobhas i nGaeilg thuas. Fút féin atá glacadh leis i nGaeilg nó iarraidh ar dhuine éigin eile a aistriú duit.



My name is also mentioned so perhaps there are some points in there I can respond to.

--- Fút féin atá. Nuair is cuma leat an teanga ann nó as i do shaol féin, cén fáth a mbeinnse buartha thar do cheann i dtaca le hábhar suime duit? Cuideod le foghlaimeoirí Gaeilge mar a chuidíos cheana.

quote:

Is a forum dedicated to the Irish language an inappropriate place to discuss the Irish language?

I never said it was inappropriate. I'm only questioning why someone with no interest in speaking Irish beyond the cúpla focal specifically wants to discuss it on a website aimed primarily at speakers and would-be speakers of Irish.

quote:

Any suggestions for a more appropriate place? You mentioned "countless other places" earlier on.

It's a subject that comes up with reasonable frequency in the online linguistics communities I participate in such as linguaphiles on LiveJournal and the Omniglot form. But it seems to be a perennial topic on any board dedicated to Irish culture. Being a linguist rather than an Irishman, I'm not as familiar with these, but I've come across these sorts of discussions regularly on the People's Republic of Cork site and www.boards.ie, among other places. Gan dabht d'fhéadfadh postóirí eile cinn breise a mholadh.

(Message edited by Domhnaillín_Breac_na_dTruslóg on September 24, 2008)

I have no problem with having Danny2007 around and I think he has a right to be here. He has always been nice to me and hence I'd never speak against him unless I had a good reason which I currently don't. Some people who frequent the boards are a puzzle to me and so hence I know that other people hold the same opinion of others as well. But I think kindness and consideration and helpfulness should be the order of the day, not to say there aren't times when I get riled. Because I do indeed get riled with folk and I won't fake like I don't. But the front page never says anything about limiting linguistic census discussions. We tend to respond to things we are interested in and so the opposite is also common, we don't respond to things we aren't interested in. If one doesn't like this topic then they don't have to write on it.

A Sheosamh, Cen chaoi bhfuil tu? Ta tu gairgeach le Danny i mo thuairim.

Trans. You are harsh with Danny in my opinion.

Beir bua agus beannacht

After a lengthy discussion in the thread "Question regarding forum etiquette", the bulk of the respondents agreed that people should be able to post in Irish or English as they saw fit. Those who hard trouble keeping up with the discussion would be more than welcome to request a translation.
http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/35054.html?1220466064

"If someone posts a reply which includes a sentence or a phrase that someone else doesn't understand, be it in Irish or English, it only needs a polite follow-up request for a translation."

The reason for creating the thread was due to what I felt were cases of people responding in Irish to threads originally posted in English only. I felt it was occasionally being used as a weapon of sorts, to exclude people. It would seem that's occuring again.

I've politely asked for a translation but all I've received from Smac_muirí (someone who has translated before), is responses in Irish which again seem DIRECTED at me. I wonder if this is being done on purpose as a way of "sticking it to me"?


Would Smac_muirí or someone else kindly summarise the last post.

-- Cén fáth? ...



This is an interesting discussion and I'd like to keep up with it.

--- Ní leor sain le go gcuirfinn Béarla ar an méid a scríobhas i nGaeilg thuas. Fút féin atá glacadh leis i nGaeilg nó iarraidh ar dhuine éigin eile a aistriú duit.



My name is also mentioned so perhaps there are some points in there I can respond to.

--- Fút féin atá. Nuair is cuma leat an teanga ann nó as i do shaol féin, cén fáth a mbeinnse buartha thar do cheann i dtaca le hábhar suime duit? Cuideod le foghlaimeoirí Gaeilge mar a chuidíos cheana.

And these:

"Fidléireacht níor samhlaíodh liom go fóill a Danny."

"Ní chuireann sé sin iontas orm a Ghuevara, tú a bheith ar aon fhocal le Danny."

"Ní chuireann sé sin iontas orm a Ghuevara, tú a bheith ar aon fhocal le Danny."

So once again, Smac_muirí, would you (or someone else), please translate your posts so that I can at least respond?

Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh,

My presence here doesn't run contrary to the Daltaí welcome message you posted.

Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg,

You've answered your own question.
"a website aimed primarily at speakers and would-be speakers of Irish."

Thanks for the links you provided. I will definitely be checking them out. That said, if you're hoping to drive me off this forum because I've posted things you disagree with, you're out of luck.

I may not be working towards full fluency, but there's still more for me to learn. I tend not to post much in the language learning threads, but I definitely read them and take down certain bits.

Riona,

I agree. Thanks for that. There has to be a middle ground. People shouldn't be made to feel unwelcome just because they post certain things that others might disagree with. As long as it's relevant to the Irish language and doesn't descend into personal attacks, all should be welcome. Nor should the language be used as a stick to beat others with. For example, responding in Irish only to specific requests for English translations by beginners. That only reinforces the worst stereotypes of gaeilgeoirí spread by the enemies of Irish. Something I'm not!

At the same time, I'll be more mindful of posting more positive developments about the language.

"If someone posts a reply which includes a sentence or a phrase that someone else doesn't understand, be it in Irish or English, it only needs a polite follow-up request for a translation."

I remember that exchange. I think it was pretty clearly implied that somebody who's actually trying to learn the language would be accommodated with an English translation, upon request. I believe by your own admission, you're not trying to learn Irish, correct?

Once gain, per the main page:

Welcome to the Daltaí na Gaeilge Discussion Boards. The Discussion Boards are provided by Daltaí na Gaeilge for the enjoyment and advancement of the Irish language. Whether a novice, advanced or native speaker, feel free to join in.

I fail to see how the Irish language is advanced by posting, in English, a steady and negative drumbeat about its inevitable demises, on a website that's dedicated to its perpetuation.

What is your goal in being here, if you have no use for Irish and perceive it to be at death's door? (For what it's worth, that's not a snarky question; I'd genuinely like to know.)

Do you think the language is advanced by people trying to stunt a discussion by posting lengthy responses in Irish to questions/translation requests in English? That's childish.

You're wrong on a number of points.
I've never said I have no use for Irish. I've never said I'm not trying to learn Irish. I just posted half an hour ago that I've got more to learn! I'm just not working towards full fluency. There is a difference. I've never said Irish is at death's door either. I did recently post a quote from Feargal O Béarra of NUI Galway who said it's moribund, however. I'm not Feargal O Béarra.

My goal of being here is to discuss the Irish language with other people who are interested in it. People can join in or ignore as they see fit.

Today the results of the Plean2028 questionnaires and public meetings were released. Aonghus posted about it in the other thread. Those are the types of discussion I enjoy.

There has to be *some* posts in English relating to Irish because most of the people who speak Irish have English as a first language. I don't think the use of English is the issue here. You clearly have a problem with people who express differing viewpoints.

Hope that answers your questions.

Gach beannacht

You clearly have a problem with people who express differing viewpoints.

Oh, please. Honey, retract the claws, will you?

I have no problem with people posting differing viewpoints. However, I do have a problem with people who seem to be trolling around a website dedicated to advancing the Irish language, posting a steady, relentless drumbeat of negativity, seemingly in an effort to cause people to despair and just give up.

Like it or not, that's how you come off. If we're mistaken on that score, then hey, thanks for setting us straight and by all means we'll look forward to your future opinions, and take you at your word that they won't be all be about gloom, despair, and agony.

A Dhanny,

quote:

Thanks for the links you provided. I will definitely be checking them out. That said, if you're hoping to drive me off this forum because I've posted things you disagree with, you're out of luck.

Seems you haven't let go of that either-or fallacy you seized upon earlier--and now you've compounded it by begging the question, assuming I disagree with what you've posted based on no evidence whatever that I can see. (Since I'm not Irish, not living in Ireland, and not planning to in future, I don't really have a dog in the fight to save the Gaeltachtaí. I'll do what I can from afar to support others who are making a sincere effort to learn the language, but what happens in Ireland is for youse to sort out.)

For the record, I'm not trying to "drive you off" and I don't see that anyone else is either. Like Domhnall Ó hAireachtaigh, I simply had questions about why you continue to post here if you can't parse Abigail's basic phrases and--more importantly--aren't willing to try. You've provided a partial answer to those and I suppose I'll be content with that.

Seomsamh's posts are difficult reading and I freely admit I don't comprehend them fully myself. For that reason, I don't feel qualified to attempt even summaries. Moreover, here and in the other thread, he's made it quite clear that he's actually too busy doing things which actually support the maintenance of the language to want to waste any time translating his remarks for an idle pessimist, and I respect that.

You are mistaken. And I'd question the commitment of anyone who gives up because of something I post.

Forgive me for posting about my impressions of the state of the gaeltacht islands I stayed on. The subject of this very thread started by trigger. Are All Irish learners that thin skinned?

Forgive me for discussing the findings of the Sociolinguistic report on the gaeltacht which paint a rather bleak picture. I suppose it's easier to shoot the messenger.

But like I said, I'll be more mindful of posting more positive developments about the language

Sin é.

Well, it seems you've provided a partial summary of his remarks.

It's unfortunate he took the time to reproduce my remarks in English and then respond only in Irish. I guess that's his childish way of getting back at me. Classy. It would have been better if he had just not responded to them at all.

What you consider Abigail's basic phrases, others might consider a challenge. Keep that in mind. When I was attending Oideas Gael I was in the absolute beginners group.

quote:

Oh, please. Honey, retract the claws, will you?

Isteach leis na crúibe tusa féin, a dhriofúr! Ní theastaíonn uaim a bheith ag fidléireacht leat choíche!

quote:

You didn't do this in your travelogue on IGT

IGT? Cad é, led' thoil? Tá suim agam san cur síos atá déanta ag Danny

Irish Gaelic Translator.

www.irishgaelictranslator.com/