Can anyone help me with a question concerning the genitive and indefinite noun clauses that have four or more nouns?
I'm unsure as to how the nouns and which of them are governed in the genitive if there is four or more in the clause.

As I understand it this is a matter of debate and dispute, because these kind of constructions are atypical of Irish, rising for the attempt to put good Irish on English meamraiméis.

An Coiste Téarmaíochta recommends looking at the meaning:
http://www.acmhainn.ie/tearmai/seimhiu.htm

Aonad trí ainmfhocal éiginnte
Má thagann trí cinn (nó níos mó) d’ainmfhocail éiginnte go díreach i ndiaidh a chéile, moltar iad a scagadh ó thaobh bhrí na n-aonad mar seo thíos:


1. Nuair is aonad brí an chéad phéire ainmfhocal agus go gcáilíonn an tríú hainmfhocal an t-aonad cuirtear na gnáthrialacha i bhfeidhm: scoil phobail – scoil phobail chathrach


2. Más aonad brí an dara péire ainmfhocal agus gur ainm briathartha nó focal gníomhaíochta an chéad cheann díobh sin, cuirtear sa ghinideach é:

lucht múchta tine, fear rite ráis, fear inste scéil, fear díolta páipéar, scéim rangaithe sonraí, córas bainistíochta sonraí, clár próiseála focal, Modh Anailíse agus Deartha Córas Struchtúra, treoir chuardaigh tábla


3. Más aonad brí an dara péire ainmfhocal agus nach focal gníomhaíochta an chéad cheann díobh sin, ní dhéantar infhilleadh ach ar an ainmfhocal deireanach, is é sin, más úinéireacht nó cineál ruda atá á chur in iúl:

bata fear siúil, beannacht bean siúil, doras teach ósta, díon teach pobail, sclátaí dín teach pobail, sos deireadh seachtaine, teach ceann tuí, sciorta ceann easna, geansaí muineál turtair, riarthóir bunachar sonraí, córas bainistíochta bunachar sonraí

Ach más feidhm aidiachtúil atá á cur in iúl, is é sin cineál ruda á shainiú, leanann séimhiú ainmfhocal baininscneach sa chéad áit:

léine bhean siúil, scoil cheann tuí

Thank you so much for your help.
Would it be possible for you to show me some examples of some much longer noun clauses. I understand that they are governed by the same rules, but some examples would be great.
Also,how do compound words work in these constructions?

Sorry, that would be out of my league.
I tend to make more mistakes when I try to construct such examples. I work on instinct! And, as I said, these are atypical constructs.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking but I'll try explain my own understanding.

A word is generally said to have two forms, its normal form and its genitive form. For instance, with a word like "bean", the genitive form is "mná".

The genitive form is used for:
1) Using a noun as if it were an adjective (e.g. school bag)
2) When you own something (e.g. The boy's shoe)
3) A few other things

There is a thing in Irish though called the "suspended genitive". Firstly, here's an example of the genitive case with a "definite noun", e.g. it would have "the" before it in English:

bróg an bhuachalla = the boy's shoe

Note that "buachaill" has become "buachalla", even though "boy" is definite. Now the way the suspended genitive works is that only the very last definite noun changes to its genitive form, the intermediate definite nouns remain unchanged.

So we had a definite noun "the boy" = an buachaill.

Now, with "the boy's shoe", we can treat that entire expression as a definite noun. Now let's try to say "the damage of the boy's shoe". Normally, "bróg" would be "bróige" in the genitive case, but because it's definite here, and because it's not the very last definite noun, it remains unchanged. All that happens is that it gets a séimhiú. So you have:

dochar bhróg an bhuachalla

This can be interpreted as:

[dochar] [bróg an bhuachalla]

Let's try another one. How about "the boy's school bag". This time, we start off with "school bag" being an expression on its own before we go on to talk about the boy, so it's:

[mála scoile] [an buachaill]

instead of:

[mála] [scoil an bhuachalla]

Therefore, to put it in Irish, "scoil" changes to "scoile" just like any other indefinite noun, so we get:

mála scoile an bhuachalla

I'm not quite sure if that's what you're asking about, but the "suspended" genitive is the only case I'm aware of in which you'll see a noun unchanged even though it's used to describe another noun.

If you're dealing with just indefinite nouns though, the changes go on forever:

dath bróige bige buachalla charad seinnteora

I don't know if you're aware, but adjectives change for the genitive as well. Thankfully for the learner, the changes to the adjective pretty much mirror the changes to the noun, for instance:

an bád glas -> an bháid ghlais

an bhróg ghorm -> na bróige goirme

Thanks Tomás for your help,
I am familiar with the functional genitive, which exists in certain cases concerning the definite noun when it is one of three nouns coming together:

Hata fhear an tí
Cóta mhac sheáin

I'm also aware that it is the usual rules of the genitive that govern three nouns coming together, if none of the three are definite

Fear inste scéil

Scoil phobail chathrach (Though I am a little unsure as to why "cathrach" takes a "h". I didn't realise that the third noun in this type of construction was ever lenited with a séimhiú)

My original query is concerned only with the indefinite clauses where there are more than three nouns occuring after one another and how they are governed. I'm pretty sure this is probably a translational thing and depends on meaning??????

quote:

Ach más feidhm aidiachtúil atá á cur in iúl, is é sin cineál ruda á shainiú, leanann séimhiú ainmfhocal baininscneach sa chéad áit:

Hmm ...
doras teach tabhairne = a door of a pub
doras theach tabhairne = a (typical) pub door
Ceart?

Lars

Is dóigh liom gurb é sin atá á mholadh ag an gcoiste, ceart go leor.

Can anybody explain to me why 'cathrach' takes a 'h' in the above construction.even though it is the third noun in the clause?

B'fhéidir mar gur scoil chathrach í an scoil phobail chathrach.
The antecedent is scoil which is feminine.
So both attributes (pobal and cathair) are lenited.

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on August 05, 2008)

I was thinking that was a possibility Lars, but can't recall ever seeing this elsewhere.

I found one other possibility:
As “New Irish Grammar” states:
“Note: The following rule is helpful: when a common noun is preceeded by a masculine noun, the initial consonant of the common noun is not, as a rule aspirated unless the final consonant of the preceeding noun is made slender by inflexion e.g.

ga tí soluis
ach
Bord iascaigh mhara

Any thoughts on this?