Recently, it has been posited that a mass noun cannot be used as a count noun, especially in the formal King's/Queen's official written version of English. In particular it has been claimed that the word coffee can only have a singular form and if one wants to order more than one cup of coffee, at least if the order is written and not spoken, the phrase two (or more) cups of coffee must be used.

This theory that mass nouns cannot be used as count nouns flies in the face of English as it is used, both in its written and spoken form. I've already given the example of fire as a noun that can be used as either a mass noun or count noun. Another example is "hair." It should be patently obvious to any speaker of English that this is another example of a noun that can be considered both a mass noun and a count noun.

So, I'd like to explore other mass nouns that can be used as count nouns and more importantly whether they carry over to Irish in the same way.

So far, we have in our list of mass/count nouns the following:

Coffee caife
fire
hair gruaig (head of hair) ribe/ribí (single/plural) hair.

I thought I would start building a table of mass nouns and their counterparts in Irish. Here's a start:

Mass Noun Countable Form Irish Forms

fire fires tine, dóitean, etc.

grass grasses ?

hair hairs gruaig, ribe/ribí

people peoples (this one seems tricky)

Although I only show a few of the many mass nouns that are also countable, I know that there are some mass nouns that aren't countable, but I can't think of any. And out of respect for Do_chinniúint, I didn't list coffee above since that may be the only mass noun in existence that cannot be counted.

What I'm finding most interesting about the Irish counterparts is that there may be many words in Irish that represent the same mass noun in English. For example fire - there's quite a list of Irish words for fire - tine, dóiteán, daighear, lasair, etc. I checked the first two, tine and dóiteán, and they both have plural forms in Irish.

But then there's one of the Irish counterparts for hair, gruaig that appears to strictly a mass noun and uncountable. Another Irish counterpart for hair is ribe, which does have a plural form, ribí.

So this subject seems to be much more complex that I originally thought. But I'd like to explore in more depth the relationship between English and Irish mass nouns, and the various mechanisms and structures that come into play. I would appreciate any insight or suggestions to building this list of mass nouns, be they countable or non-countable. Also, any and all additions to the list would be welcomed.

In the meantime, if I get bored or can't handle the challenge of this project, I can always fall back on the premise that there's no such thing as a countable mass nouns and poof - this whole project goes away!

Le meas,

Student of Countable and Non-Countable Mass Nouns

Being count or mass is really a property of the noun phrase rather than the noun as such. It's hard to think of a so-called mass-noun which can't be made countable by the correct context. For most edibles, all you need to do is find a way to have them refer to servings, e.g. "I need three waters for table six!" = "I need three glasses of water for table six!" For other nouns, the plural can refer to styles or varieties. For instance, I've seen "hairs" used to mean "hairstyles/haircolours". (Consider for instance this "Vector illustration of four women with different hairs [sic]" <http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-10365328.html>.)

Using typically countable nouns as mass-nouns is a bit trickier, but can be done. We've been shopping for real estate lately, so there's been a lot of talk about "how much house" we can get for the money. I could also say "a whole lot of chair" for a chair that was especially large or otherwise distinctive.

(Séanadh: Níl barúil agam cé acu is fíor sa Ghaolainn aon rud ar bith a duart taobh thuas.)

A Student ;-)

Of course coffee can be counted, I just don't agree with the phrasing:

one coffee
two coffees
three coffees

I have no problem with:

one cup of coffee
two cups of coffee
three cups of coffee

I am not certain if it is the grammar or the personal preference that is causing the gears to grind a little in my mind.

Something that was literally just brought up to my attention by a co-worker is the "speed talk" and "shorthand" phenomenon. This has been known to create abnormal plurals also.

A Mo Chinniúint,

Whether coffee can be counted and whether "coffee" can be a count-noun are two completely independent questions. If you don't understand the distinction, then it's no wonder that other thread went around in circles as long as it did.

If you are really interested in understanding the grammatical structure of English, I can't recommend The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Huddleston & Pullum, 2002) highly enough. It's comprehensive, definitive, and extremely readable.

Agus má tá sin críochnaithe againn, cad'na thaobh ná labhairímis cuid Gaelainne arís mar athrú?

LOL...

So the fact that I have access to the Oxford Companion to the English Language is not good enough?

And the reason it went in circles is because people were not talking about the same "coffee."

Once again, there was a breakdown in semantics.

The word is useless without the meaning associated with it, and while I continued to talk about a specific meaning, others such as yourself wanted to contest it with a completely different meaning and context for the same word.

And for the record, I have a pretty good grasp of the grammar of English.

So the fact that I have access to the Oxford Companion to the English Language is not good enough?

If what you are looking for is an understanding of the underlying grammatical structure of the language, then no. There's a significant difference between a "companion" to a language and a "grammar" of it. Is a missal a substitute for a Bible? Can a Baedeker's take the place of a municipal law code?

And for the record, I have a pretty good grasp of the grammar of English.

I don't doubt it. But known of us knows so much about the subject that we can't benefit greatly from an expert resource.

Well you're right about needing an expert resource to keep one in check, and you are also correct in that the companion may not go into the depth needed. But it is rather surprising the range to which the companion covers.

quote:

Of course coffee can be counted, I just don't agree with the phrasing:

one coffee
two coffees
three coffees

How many sugars do you take with your coffee?

I had a terrible pain in the shoulder the other day and when I called the doctor she told me to take two aspirins and call her in the morning.

I was tempted to correct her and tell her that she should have said "take two tablets of aspirin" but then again her advice was spoken and not written.


(Message edited by student on July 17, 2008)

A Grumpy, you bring up an excellent point...

However, sugar falls into the same but different realm as coffee. Sugar falls under the particle/grains category. Many noncount nouns that fall under this category can also be, or used as, count nouns.

However, again you have to remember that in the past a unit of measurement was assigned to this word such as teaspoon or cup. Again one would then count the number of units of measurement and not the sugar itself. As it become more used in our language, we again dropped the unit of measurement because we just assumed it was in one. But you cannot count sugar by itself. You are actually saying "how many teaspoons of sugar do you take, how many cubes of sugar do you want, how many packets of suger do you take..."

And Student, I wouldn't take this too seriously ;-) It is just an interesting aspect of the language I think. If we have officially crossed the point where we are going to just say things like two coffees, two sugars, or two asprins then so be it. The point is going to be understood as someone said before. It is just the manner in which we choose to say things.

A Do Chinniúint,

Go raibh maith agat as an chomhairle, ach níl sé riachtanach.

I do plan on studying mass nouns and how they can be used as count nouns in Irish. I'd like to thank you for sparking this interest with your caife thread and keeping that thread on a nice, even keel.


Mass Noun / Countable Plural Form / Irish Forms

fire fires tine, dóitean, etc.

grass grasses ?

hair hairs gruaig, ribe/ribí

people peoples (this one seems tricky)

sugar sugars siúcra

I notice in FGB that there is no plural listed for sugar in Irish. I understand that there will be some mass nouns that don't have countable, plural forms, say like gravel, but I'm wondering how to say what Grumpy asked above in Irish - How many sugars do you take with your coffee?

FRC - GRMA

(Message edited by student on July 18, 2008)

quote:

vI notice in FGB that there is no plural listed for sugar in Irish. I understand that there will be some mass nouns that don't have countable, plural forms, say like gravel, but I'm wondering how to say what Grumpy asked above in Irish - How many sugars do you take with your coffee?

'Cé mhéid siúcra a chaitheann tú i gcaife?'

'Siúcra' doesn't have a plural in ordinary speech, but 'siúcraí' is used in chemistry etc. when referring to different sugars.

'Caife' (coffee) doesn't have a plural either: 'two coffees' = 'dhá chupán caife'.

Whether it has the sanction of a dictionary or not, I say 'caife' for 'coffee' and 'caifé' (plural 'caiféanna') for 'café'. I don't think I've ever heard 'caifí' in my life.

Go raibh maith agat as an freagra, a Grumpy.

I'd also be interested in how mass nouns developed to the point that some, if not many, are used as countable nouns. I have a notion that there may have been a similar development in English. That is, I can almost hear Victorian-era speakers insisting on "cups of coffee" and in My-Fair-Lady style, just a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down, the medicine go down. I sense that English at some time in history went through a change with mass nouns where speakers and writers no longer insisted that the vessel or other initial count noun was needed when describing a number of items containing an amount of a particular mass noun.

One mass noun that I'd like to offer as representative of how a mass noun became clearly a countable mass noun is the word "rock." I don't think there's anyone on this forum who would argue that "rock" isn't a mass noun. But all of us have probably at one time or another come across this well known mass noun being used as a count noun, in both its singular and plural forms. So, I wonder if other, older languages than English, and in particular Irish, had a development stage where mass nouns also became countable nouns.


(Message edited by Student on July 18, 2008)