For those like myself who are watching the history and discovery channels more than they probably should be...one can't help but be blasted with all those Dan Brown inspired conspiracy and secrecy shows about the "Freemasons."

The last one I watched caught my attention when they spoke about the different groups in both Ireland and Scotland and I started thinking, "If these guys were the force they were said to have been, did they make have an impact on the language."

And wouldn't you know it, they have their own word!

A Freemason is a "máisiún" while a mason of any other type is a "saor + gen." For example, a stone mason (one who constructs using stone) is a "saor cloithe."

I am curious if anyone knows when máisiún entered the language? Does it appear around the 17th century which is when they were suggesting Freemasonry really took root in Ireland? Or is it a modern word.

The show also got me thinking, if a mason is nothing more than a person who constructs using natural means, I am wondering if this can be used a little more abstractly for the Irish language.

Now I am probably going to mess this up, so please correct me here, but can we create a new societal group called "An Saor Gaeilge." People who construct the future using Irish? Sign me up for that one...minus all those twisted initiation rituals ;-)

quote:

People who construct the future using Irish? Sign me up for that one...

Beidh ort Gaeilge a fhoghlaim ar dtús.

Was "saor Gaeilge" correct?

I tried to track down the origin of the word "máisiún" in Irish, but I didn't have much luck last night.

I mean I know that it is the Irish form of "mason" but the origins of the word "mason" itself seems to be a problem. There are many proposed origins and no one seems to agree on any of them.

This is just a little bit of what I kept running into last night. It was taken from on online dictionary:

c.1205, from O.Fr. masson (O.N.Fr. machun), probably from Frank. *makjo (cf. O.H.G. steinmezzo "stone mason," related to mahhon "to make;" see make (v.)). But it also may be from, or influenced by, M.L. machio, matio (7c.) which is said by Isidore to be derived from machina (see machine). The word also may be from the root of L. maceria "wall." Meaning "a Freemason" is attested from 1425 in Anglo-Fr. Masonry "stonework" is attested from c.1366.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Mason&searchmode=none

And it seems to be similar to what I saw on other various websites I saw on the web...however the problem is that words resembling "mason" with similar meanings have been found in records from much earlier times. I think what they are suggesting is that this is the first time we can prove this word containing this meaning? And I must confess, even though they were probably the more educational classes I took, I hated every etymology class I took in grad school. It seems like such an easy thing to do, until one adds an etymologist to the mix. ;-)

What I find interesting about this is that while the idea of "Freemasonry" is nothing more than a philosophical construct born from the masonry trade itself, it was important enough to warrant its own word. I mean if it was not a big deal, then why did they break from the normal pattern used for every other type of masonry?

I would love to see when this word really entered the language.

it's in dineen, but given as "a mason" with a small m and no mention of freemasonry.

it could be that there were two words, one a native saor+gen and one taken from english. over time, when a distinction needed to be made between actual masons and Mason masons a convention grew up around the two words.

another possibility is that Ireland, with the native gaelic speaking population being mainly Catholic, would have seen most Masons being "the english" - and so the english-based word came to mean Mason while the native word remained for real masons.

Both of Antaine's suggestions seems to make sense.

Also, consider that a true translation of freemason would be "saor saor," which sounds a bit silly.

If you're really curious, you should simply contact the Grand Lodge of Ireland and ask. I'd imagine they'd know.

http://www.irish-freemasons.org/

I don't have Dineen's, but I have Collin's and FGB and the separation is made in both of them.

I saw the Lodge's website, for a society that was supposed to be surrounded in secrecy, they are actually pretty open about themselves. I sent them an e-mail asking if they had any information about the earliest dates they might have for the society in Ireland.

They actually replied a few hours ago. They said that they didn't have any records pre-dating them, but that doesn't mean that there weren't any before them. They suggested I look to Scotland for the earlier records because they believed the society migrated to Ireland from there.

And yes "saor saor" may seem silly, that is a direct translation. In many languages, the word Freemason translate not directly but conceptually. The standard blurbage is that "Freemasonry was a philosphical belief that a new and better morality could be developed and utilised." The whole masonry thing was just symbology.

You might be able to create a more interpretive translation like:

saor moráltachta
saor idéalachais

Or maybe something along these lines...just suggestions.


(Message edited by do_chinniúint on June 13, 2008)

I mention dineen's because it is old and gives a fix on a date where the word already existed.

"If you're really curious, you should simply contact the Grand Lodge of Ireland and ask. I'd imagine they'd know. "

Well...i'm sure they'll have something to tell you about it...but then they'll also tell you they've been around since the building of solomon's temple so....

DinNeen, le bhur dtoil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_S._Dinneen

As I said, I did contact them and they said that they didn't have anything that pre-dates them.

Can someone check Dinneen's entries for the word "máisiún" and "saor?" What exactly does it say?

While Dinneen's is hardly the final authority on the language, it could suggest that the separation happened in recent times. However, this isn't proof. It could be that when they put the dictionary they didn't distinguish the two entries, weren't aware of any differences, intentionally left it out (as most dictionaries do for things like slang or vulgar words), or who knows...

Perhaps the Royal Irish Academy would be the best source for info?

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on June 13, 2008)

Seo agat iad:

http://www.archive.org/details/irishenglishdict00dinniala

http://www.dil.ie/

Well...i'm sure they'll have something to tell you about it...but then they'll also tell you they've been around since the building of solomon's temple so....

Where on earth did you hear that? I've been a Freemason for fifteen years, and I can assure you that's simply not the case.

You should know there are any number of crackpot conspiracy-theorist and lunatic religious-extremist organizations out there that love to spew all kinds of bizarre, irrational, sometimes hilariously silly crap about Freemasonry. If an assertion seems over the top... it's probably untrue.

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on June 14, 2008)

I went to the eDIL website. Found nothing for máisiún, but found some interesting things for saor or saer.

The first entries concentrated on the concepts of A) Free, Freeman B) Noble, Previleged Birth.

The second entries concentrated on the concepts of A) Artificer, Craftsmen

Hmm...well I suppose a few things can start to come out of this. Máisiún wasn't in Old Irish or at least not documented yet. So unless evidence to contradict this is found, my guess is that it entered the language later.

This actually is good thing if you take into account that some of the earliest accounts of the word come from 1200's France. (Old French masson) If this is the origin of the word then it couldn't have entered the language until after 1200 CE.

But I did see what looked like the "saor + gen" form under the second entry for saer.

I don't know the first thing about the grammar of Old Irish, but what I saw was (saóir chrainn , chloiche). I do not know if this is the genitive or another case. But the saor plus form is being shown...so maybe this proves that the saor plus form is the traditional form for Irish?

Tá faitíos orm a Fhir mo Chinniúna, go mbeidh tú ag gabháil thart ar nós an mhadaidh i ndiaidh a rubaill ar feadh do shaoil is go mbeidh tú ag cur amú do chuid ama. Braithim gur duine deas díograiseach thú ach níor mhaith liom go mbeifeá thíos leis ag an deireadh. B'fhearr duit cúrsa teanga ná a bheith ag iarraidh an teanga thuiscint ón taobh amuigh nó droim ar ais.

After a while of learning one finds that a lot of words ending in -ún ; príosún, garsún (vs. gasúr na Gaeilge) are from French, or through French, so you don't have ply the world with peeks into DIL etc. Bheadh a fhios agat ón tús nár ghá cuardach in áit ar bith. Is focal é nach gcuirfinn aon spéis ann. Ar éigean a thabharfainn focal Gaeilge air agus ar éigean a déarfainn in aon chomhrá é, ach amháin dá mbeinn ag tagairt do fhear de na máisiúin.

I feel that you could be a very fast learner if you could hold on in one direction, by using a course or some such method of railroading yourself down a straight and narrow route. I have no doubt in your zeal. If you could hone that quality, ní fhéadfaí thú a stopadh.

Guím gach rath ar do chuid iarrachtaí.

Hmm...

True, there is no doubt that I allow myself to be so easily taken off the path. But then again, if there is any truth to the saying that it is the journey and not the destination that matters...then a little side venture is worth its weight in gold :-)

quote:

then a little side venture is worth its weight in gold

Cacamas. Ní chuige sin atá muid anseo, a Chinnéidigh. (Féach "cenn" agus "étig" in DIL.)

... in DIL

Nó sa Dúil Bélrai más fearr leat é:

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/sengoidelc/duil-belrai/

Fonóta: Tá "An Saor - The Great Architect" ag Dinneen. Sin téarma de chuid na máisiúin, go bhfios dom.

Bhí an-mheas ar an saor sa sean-am, mar sin ní hionadh gur bhain na filí feidhm as an bhfocal "saor" mar leasainm ar Dhia. Mar shampla:

An saor do shuidhigh gréin ngil...
saor do dhealbh na trí tighe...
Do chaoinsead saor a gceangail...
ní saor do dhealbh dúinne acht Dhia...

(Message edited by dennis on June 15, 2008)

Is fíor go bhfuil dhá "shaor" againn i nGaeilge, an focal a chiallaíonn "neamhspleách" agus focal eile, an ceann atá faoi chaibidil anseo, a chiallaíonn "ceardaí". De réir Vendryes (LEIA), is ó so + fer = "uasal" ó *su-uiros, a tháinig a chéad fhocal, agus ó *sa[p]ero- (cf. "sapiens, sapient") a tháinig an dara focal.

>> http://www.irish-freemasons.org/

Peace, love, charity...



Atheists need not apply?!

Ní thuigim.

(Message edited by dearg on June 16, 2008)

Cén fáth? Eagraíocht Dhiach is ea iad.

quote:

Membership of our Order is open to all men of integrity and goodwill, irrespective of colour or creed, on condition that they profess a belief in a Supreme Being.

(Message edited by aonghus on June 16, 2008)

ó http://www.irish-freemasons.org/want_to_join.htm :

"Atheism and Freemasonry are incompatible."

Tá ceist agam: "What does being an upstanding citizen have anything to do with believing in a god?"

nothing. but freemasonry is not just about being an upstanding citizen...

That you can do all by yourself if you don't believe in a supreme being, or join the Lions or Rotary International...

Cén fáth an chaint seo uilig i mBéarla faoi ábhar nach bhfuil bainteach leis an nGaeilge in aon chor? Freagra: an duine a thosaigh an snáithe seo agus a chuid "side ventures" ar dtús... agus sibh féin agus "creideamh" ina dhiaidh sin. Is íogair an t-ábhar é am ar bith agus áit ar bith. Basta.

A Antaine,

Of course freemasonry is not just about being an upstanding citizen, but those are the qualifications (from the same page I linked to before):
================

What are the qualifications?

Freemasonry is proud of its philosophy and practice of "making good men better." Only individuals believed to be of good character are favourably considered for membership. Every applicant must be 21 years of age or more and respected in his locality.

==================

A Dhearg,
Tá Aindiachaithe ann, agus Diachaithe ann, ar saoránaigh maith iad.
Ach is cuid d'fhealsúnacht na Máisiún go bhfuil An Saor ann.
Mura dtig leat glacadh leis sin, ní thig leo glacadh leat.
Ní haon leithcheal é sin.

Cosúil le haon chumann eile, ní mór duit bheith i bhfách leis an bunfealsúnacht atá acu le bheith i do bhall.

Féach, is Caitliceach Rómhánach mise. Ní shantóinn ballraíocht sna Máisiún, toisc go dtagann gnéithe de salach ar mo chreideamh. Ach ní dóigh liom gur drochsaoránach mé dá bharr!

Dearg,

Freemasonry requires that a man "of his own free will and accord..." request to become a freemason. Following that, an investigating team will be assembled and the candidate's name will be "read in lodge". Once the candidate is approved, he will present himself "duely and truly prepared, properly vouched for...."

No credit report is investigated, no governmental background investigation is initiated...it's just a congenial look at a man's reputation in his community. The only requirement....hard and fast requirement, is that a man professes a belief in a single supreme being. Within the Masonic rites, that individual is commonly referred to as the "Grand Architect" or "Great Architect".

One can be a fine, upstanding citizen and be an atheist and one can be a Bible Thumpin' Christian and still be a jerk (trust me on this one....I grew up in a church full of these). Good citizenship and a belief in a supreme being are not conjoined requirements. They are separate issues, both of which must be met.



2B1ASK1!

An taistealaí thú, a James?

I've been a Freemason for fifteen years

I ndáiríre?

Is comhrá aisteach é seo ar fad. Is cuma faoin fhocal seo.

Táim taistealaí....ag an tOirthear.

Actually...that should probably read:

Is taistealaí mé. Táim ag imeacht ag an tOirthear.

Tá an córas féinchearthaithe ar obair agat anois a James, bail ó Dhia ort! Nuair a ghlacann duine an chéim sin, is céim chun cinn an-mhór é. Tá an chuid is measa curtha díot is beidh tú in ann sult is spraoi a bhaint as an teanga le do mhisneach a chothú feasta.

Duine eile ar bhealach a shlánaithe!