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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (May - June) » Archive through May 06, 2008 » Dia duit ? Dia dhuit? « Previous Next »

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Jehan
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Username: Jehan

Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 07:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Excuse me for asking about such a basic thing!
Sometimes, you read "Dia Duit", sometimes you read "Dia Dhuit", (to say "hello" or "good morning")
Which is the best ? And how do you pronounce this "dh" which gives me some difficulty . Do you pronounce it like a HH (= to russian X? or la Jota espanola?) .
Same question for "Dia Daoibh (Dhaoibh?)"
I found both ways of writing it and cannot understand why.

Thanks a lot for answering .

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6983
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 08:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Without lenition according to the standard grammar.
With according to most speakers in the south, who accordingly write it that way (as I usually do).

I don't give advice on pronuciation, but I think it is close to spanish j.

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Jehan
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Username: Jehan

Post Number: 38
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 11:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

all right,
but if there's no lenition why is it pronounced like a spanish j ? Wouldn't it be just like a simple d in such a case.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3691
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 11:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

And how do you pronounce this "dh" which gives me some difficulty . Do you pronounce it like a HH (= to russian X? or la Jota espanola?) .

Not as the "jota española" but rather as Spanish 'g' between vowels:

aGosto
aGobiado
aboGado

Or as the gamma in Modern Greek.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 487
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 11:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Not exactly as "x" in Russian, cos "dh" is voiced. Although, if you know how we pronounce "Слава Богу" you're on the right track. (In fact you make use of the back of the tongue for the Irish "x" whereas it's closer to the middle of the tongue in Russian)

'Rath Dé agus bail Phádraig ar a bhfeicfidh mé ó éireoidh mé ar maidin go gcodlóidh mé san oíche'


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Jehan
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Username: Jehan

Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 01:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks Dennis and spasibo Piotr (excuse me, I haven't got any cyrillic keyboard)
I know how to pronounce the spanish G of aGosto and the Russian G of Slava BoGu; and I think they're practically the same (or I can't feel the difference) . Anyway they are different from the Russian X or the spanish J all right.
So, thanks for giving me the right way of pronouncing . But it doesn't still explain me why you DO NOT lenite the D after Dia , and yet you pronounce it AS IF it were lenited!!! because, this G way of pronouncing goes for "dh" doesn't it , and not for "d"!!! HELP!!

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 91.121.7.211
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 01:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Jehan, it is not a case of not leniting duit and yet pronouncing it as if it were. There is dialectal variation between the Irish regions:

Ulster: duit would be unlenited (but I gather dia duit is not used as a greeting anyway in Ulster, but duit is always unlenited anyway). So if an Ulstermen said this he would not lenite the d.

Connacht: dhuit is always lenited. The dialectal form is dia dhuit (written like that if you want to show the dialectal form).

Munster: duit is lenited after a vowel and after some r's too (eg tabhair dhom é) but not after a consonant. So in dia dhuit this would attract lenition - written and spoken like that.

Standard Irish: has gone with the Ulster grammatical rule that do and its forms (dom duit etc) are unlenited always. But the Standard Irish is less insistent on how you pronounce it - as most native speakers lenite, it is often lenited.

Note: dia dhaoibh, pronounced dia dhibh.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 233
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 01:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The preposition is "do" (not "dho"), so (according to Standard grammar) it should be "duit". So , according to Standard orthography it is spelled "duit". But it is often pronounced with lenition, especially after vowels (e.g. after Dia). And of course it is often written "dhuit".

One probably should distinguish between lenition as a mean of grammatical differentiation and lenition due to phonological processes.
- In Spanish there's only the second type of "lenition". So, Spanish "g" can be pronounced /g/ or /γ/ due to surrounding vowels or consonants.
- In Irish both exists: the first and (at least to some extent) the second type. The second type of lenition is either marked in spelling or not.

Lars

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2371
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 04:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

By the way, these are the forms of the preposition "do" (of course there are many variants according to microdialects):

Standard:
dom
duit

di
dúinn
daoibh
dóibh

Munster:
d(h)om
d(h)oit
d(h)o
d(h)i
d(h)úinn, d(h)uinn
d(h)uibh
d(h)oibh/d(h)óibh

Donegal
domh
duit/duid

daoithe
dúinn
daoibh
daofa

Connemara:
dhom
dhuit
dhó
dhaoi/dhi
dhúinn
dhaoib
dhób

Once again, Standard Irish is a blend of dialects...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 83
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 05:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh > Do we have to use the h in the Munster?

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2374
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 07:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Looks like that they use the lenited form when the preceding word ends with a vowel. Those who speak Munster Irish can correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Domhnall Liaim Liaim (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 129.105.29.144
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 08:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dillon and Ó Cróinín give the 2P form as /d'i:v'/ (i.e. díbh), but I don't know whether this is specific to Muskerry or not. Otherwise their forms agree with Lughaidh's.

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 61
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 10:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

{if you know how we pronounce "Слава Богу}

I fear Бог is a bad examle, because many pronounce it traditionally [box], but some [bok]. In the declinated forms I think only the forms with [bog-] are prevalent.

But the russophones may correct me in this point.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 491
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 05:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I fear Бог is a bad examle, because many pronounce it traditionally [box], but some [bok]. In the declinated forms I think only the forms with [bog-] are prevalent.

But the russophones may correct me in this point.



I strongly doubt anyone would say “Бог” as [bok]. [bok] is “бок”, that’s the problem. As for the prevalence of the /bog/ stem in the paradigm, that’s a fair point although there are still certain set phrases (Слава Богу is one of these) in which younger speakers like myself retain the older voiced fricative allophone.

'Rath Dé agus bail Phádraig ar a bhfeicfidh mé ó éireoidh mé ar maidin go gcodlóidh mé san oíche'


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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 492
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 09:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Interestingly, my granma uses [γ] also in the words “богатый”, “богатство” although she virtually speaks Standard Russian with only a slight touch of оканье and a handful of local and просторечье things. I believe this is an example of [γ] expanding onto similarly sounding words rather than a feature dating back to the times when “Бог” (God) and “богатство” (richness) were interrelated concepts (which could be hundreds of years ago, dunno).

'Rath Dé agus bail Phádraig ar a bhfeicfidh mé ó éireoidh mé ar maidin go gcodlóidh mé san oíche'


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Jehan
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Username: Jehan

Post Number: 40
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 01:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, Thanks to all of you for these precisions.
In fact, it's all a matter of dialects .
thanks to Lughaidh for his compilation, which is precise and then helpful.

As far as Russian is concerned, I've always heard "Bog"(cyrillic) pronounced as "Box"(=Boch)(nominative) and , in other declension forms like "Bogu" pronounced "BoHHu" (I exaggerate but it's difficult to write a sound without the right keyboard).
I never heard "Bogatyi" pronounced "BoHHatyi" though.
Could I know where your grandma is from, Peter ?

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 64
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 05:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was taught only Бог in its ground form and лëгкий (and its derivations) have a г pronounced as х.

So now I am surprised to hear that you say *Слава Боху*.

Is it so only in this set phrase or also in "normal" uses like "дорога к Богу" etc.?

PS: I know God always claims to get special treatment. A simple г is not good enough for him!

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Péitseóg
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Username: Péitseóg

Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 08:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To Lughaidh,

We would pronounce it with the "h" here or at least that's how I've always heard it spoken and how i would say it. I don't ever recall being corrected on writing it that way but I could be wrong there. It's been a while since I've written in Irish.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 494
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 02:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Jehan, she is from Тейково, Ivanovo Region. She spent quite a long time in Vladimir and Syktyvkar, but then moved back to Ivanovo. This region is well-known for strong “оканье” which can be heard even among younger speakers, although it’s more of a social marker these days: particularly it’s in use among rural dwellers who still largely resort to what is left of the local dialect (say, “сестра” is pronounced as [c’астрá] or “with elderly women” is "с баушком" (i.e. с бабушками), etc.).


quote:

So now I am surprised to hear that you say *Слава Боху*.



It’s not “x” but its voiced counterpart [γ], but I’m sure that’s what you meant. I would use [г] in "дорога к Богу" but [γ] sounds ok too. Depends on the speaker, you can sometimes hear things from great speakers that really make you wonder like what the hell? Say, my other granma from Tver uses a strange form for the 3rd pl personal pronoun – [an’é] instead of “они”. Aside from this one, her Russian is more or less standard.

'Rath Dé agus bail Phádraig ar a bhfeicfidh mé ó éireoidh mé ar maidin go gcodlóidh mé san oíche'




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