How do you guys type Fadas? I mean, away from this message board?

I ask this because I have started using the expanded keyboard. It will type áéíóú, and àèìòù/¿/¡/ç/Ð/ã/õ/ß etc. I use it because it supports the Vietnamese alphabet, and that's the only way that I can type those diacrtics.

if you're using a mac, any english, irish or french (or just about any other) will give you a fada if you type +e and then the vowel.

Hold down Ctrl and ' for a half second, then release both and type your vowel. It takes a little practice.

Daltaí accepts HTML codes, so type &x;, where x is the code for the particular letter. For Example, to get Ó type Oacute between the & and ;. For any other vowel, upper or lower case, type that vowel in place of O. These codes work with a number of other systems.
-- Éad

Fada means "long" and it's an adjective so anyway you cannot say "a fada" in English (nor "fada a scríobh" in Irish).
These accents are called "long stroke" in English, and "síneadh fada" in Irish.

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you cannot say "a fada" in English

But everyone does, mar sin féin!

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These accents are called "long stroke" in English

Ní minic a chloistear é sin.

I'm sorry.

I had no idea. Well...

Long strokes are the grave accent, no? Maybe the acute.

HEY!!

At the bottom of the 'Add Your Message Here' It says 'Help With Fadas.' I should think that the creator of the site would know this!

I use a PC with Windows and my keyboard is set regionally for Ireland. I press the 'Alt Gr' key and the vowel at the same time. (Alt Gr is beside the space bar on my keyboard)

Same here. AltGr (right Alt key) works with a UK/Ire keyboard on a PC running XP/Vista (not sure about 2000/Me etc). If your keyboard doesn't support that, there's a (rather less convenient) method available using the (left) Alt key in combination with your numeric keypad:

á Alt+0225
é Alt+0233
í Alt+0237
ó Alt+0243
ú Alt+0250

Á Alt+0193
É Alt+0201
Í Alt+0205
Ó Alt+0211
Ú Alt+0218

Dave_gallagher: Thanks for those. The numbers aren't as esay to remember as Oacute, etc., but they work in AOL Instant Message. I'll try e-mail and some other things later.

"Long strokes are the grave accent, no? Maybe the acute."


let's see...the mnemonic I learned in French class was that ò was the grave accent, because it angles downward into the grave. Heh...uplifting, I know. That one you'd use for Scottish...it's the acute you want for Irish.

also, it helps to remember the pronunciation of élèves to tell them apart...if you already speak some French, that is...

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The numbers aren't as esay to remember as Oacute, etc.

Aontaím leat. Bheadh sé níos fusa an chéad uimhir den dá ghrúpa a chur de ghlanmheabhair, is dócha, agus ansin na hidirchéimeanna eatarthu: 0225 + (8,4,6,7) srl. Nó post-it beag a choimeád in aice láimhe, ar ndóigh.

Dave, a chara,
Want fewer numbers to remember?

Má tá tú ag scríobh in email, bain úsáid as an number pad:
á: Alt160
é: Alt130
í: Alt161
ó: Alt162
ú: Alt163

There's also Alt-144 for É, but none of the other capital vowels have 3-digit codes for fadas. That leaves out all the Irish names with Ó.
Dave: I copied the codes from your note into a Word file. It'll last longer than a Post-It.

quote:

But everyone does, mar sin féin!

Not everyone, and even though most learners do, it doesn't mean it's right!
For example, most learners pronounce broad "gh" as [g] as well... and it isn't right.

quote:

Ní minic a chloistear é sin.

As far as I know it's the 'real' name.

Long strokes can be called "acute accents" as well. Actually, acute accent is the general term (in all languages that have some); in Irish the proper name is "long stroke" because these acute accents mean the vowel is long, but in French for example, an acute accent means that the vowel is pronounced in a different way, and not that it is long.

quote:

Not everyone, and even though most learners do, it doesn't mean it's right!

Tá dearcadh an-Fhrancach agat ar "cheart na teanga", a Lughaidh. Ag caint ar úsáid an Bhéarla atáimid anois ("some of the fadas are missing"), agus cuireann an Béarla fáilte roimh núáil den chineáil seo. Is sleamhain solúbtha an teanga í. Tógann muid focail ó theangacha eile, "fada" sa chás seo, agus baineann muid feidhm astu mar is mian linn: pie à la mode (= le reoiteog), the story is full of double entendres, etc. Bíonn proscriptivists ann i gcónaí a deir go bhfuil sé seo nó sé sin mícheart, ach bíonn an bua ag glór an phobail ag deireadh an lae.

"but in French for example, an acute accent means that the vowel is pronounced in a different way, and not that it is long."

However, all the long vowels in Irish áéíóú make the same sound as the same vowels áéíóú in French...at least so close that I can't tell the difference (and I've actually been complimented on my French pronunciation by a Frenchman...something damn-near impossible to pull off for a learner, or so it seems...)

Actually, b'fhéidir nach dearcadh Francach atá agat, ach dearcadh de l'Académie. An bhfuil "footing" (faire du footing) mícheart?? Ní mar sin a úsáidtear an focal i mBéarla, ach is cuid den Fhraincis é le tríocha bliain anuas ar an laghad.

For those using number combinations to produce fadas I'd suggest checking your Control Panel to see if you can switch to an Irish configuration (no need for post-its). If you're using a U.S. layout the only difference to the Irish layout (which I'm aware of) is the @ and " symbols are interchanged.

Come on -no one is typing in codes to get fadas! How hard can it be to set up a keyboard?

Lughaidh, think of 'fada' as a loan word into English.

No messing, but if you used the term 'long stroke' to many Hiberno English speakers they would start laughing -it sounds old fashioned ('put a longstroke on that') or something to do with an engine

Lughaidh a chara,
Language is the most democratic process there is. The people decide how it evolves by their use of the language no matter what any governing body tries to impose. The best the governing bodies can do is watch the evolution, respect it and try to make the process of learning the language manageable.
Sin é an chaoi 'na bhfuil an saol. Buíochas le Dia go bhfuil an cumhacht againn ansin ar a laghad. Nach maith leat an focal? Sure, tá neart Béarla sa Ghaeilge, nach bhfuil? Nach maith an rud é go bhfuil focail cosúil le 'fada' agus 'curach' meascaithe le Béarla agus muid ag caint i mBéarla?
Sin é an chaoi a fheicim an scéal ar aon nós.

"Language is the most democratic process there is. "

I would point out that that pointing in the direction of sophistry -first of all it suggests language is an object, independent of the social, class, economic (and so on) conditions in which it is found.

History shows that one's language is not 'democratically developed' like some sort of open source project, but is contingent on a huge number factors -one major one been the language of who is in power and how language mediates access to the pie, as it were.

We have ample examples of governments altering language habits and in shorter periods than in Ireland.

In fact language is decidedly undemocratic -we have no say in which one we learn in childhood, our families nor our region either.

Besides, democracy is not equality, just majority group rule within a formalized process. The majority then set their own leadership up to take most of the power and wealth, and experience a taste of the marginality they have set in motion. Maybe that is why members of the major ethnic group are often the poorest in a country -they are just happy to be in the majority.

quote:

Tá dearcadh an-Fhrancach agat ar "cheart na teanga", a Lughaidh.

Abair sin le múinteoirí Gaeilge ollscoil Chúil Raithin, ós uafa sin a chualaidh mé scéal "fadas" srl. Chan dóigh liom go bhfuil a dheath Francach bainteach leofa (níl Fraincis acu féin).

quote:

"but in French for example, an acute accent means that the vowel is pronounced in a different way, and not that it is long."

However, all the long vowels in Irish áéíóú make the same sound as the same vowels áéíóú in French...at least so close that I can't tell the difference (and I've actually been complimented on my French pronunciation by a Frenchman...something damn-near impossible to pull off for a learner, or so it seems...)

French has only 'é', not áíóú. French é is [e]. Irish é is [eː] or sometimes [eːə] etc. Unlike Irish, vowel length has no phonological value in French.

quote:

Actually, b'fhéidir nach dearcadh Francach atá agat, ach dearcadh de l'Académie.

Go bhfios domh, cha ndéanann an Académie ach amharc ar an teangaidh mar atá sí inniu. Chan abrann sí cad é atá ceart agus cad é atá mícheart. Is iad na leabharthaí gramadaí agus na scoltacha a ghníos.

quote:

An bhfuil "footing" (faire du footing) mícheart?? Ní mar sin a úsáidtear an focal i mBéarla, ach is cuid den Fhraincis é le tríocha bliain anuas ar an laghad.

Scéal eile ar fad. Úsáidtear "fada" mar ainmfhocal i mBéarla siocair nár tuigeadh cad é atá i gceist nuair a litríthear focal i nGaeilg:
s, c, e fada, a, l. Tuigeann toisitheoirí gur "e" + a sign called "fada" atá i gceist, nuair nach bhfuil ann ach "long e".

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Lughaidh, think of 'fada' as a loan word into English.

No messing, but if you used the term 'long stroke' to many Hiberno English speakers they would start laughing -it sounds old fashioned ('put a longstroke on that') or something to do with an engine

Tell that to my teachers. I've not invented the expression "long stroke", I didn't know it before I went to Coleraine University.

Cá bith, a chairde, is cuma liom an mbaineann sibh úsáid as "fada" mar ainmfhocal i mBéarla nó nach mbaineann, cha rabh mé ’féacháil ach le hinse do na foghlaimeoirí nach rabh ’n rud sin ceart ar tús agus gur féidir rud ineacht níos cirte a dh’úsáid ina áit.
Má bhaintear feidhm as "fada" sa dóigh sin i scriúduithe áiríd (mar shampla san ollscoil), scríobhfaidh ’n ceartaitheoir gur meancóg atá ann. Mar sin is fearr liom sin a dh’inse do na foghlaimeoirí ionas go mbeadh ’s acu.

quote:

Come on -no one is typing in codes to get fadas! How hard can it be to set up a keyboard?

To answer this question specifically, for a PC running Win XP:

Right-click on your main toolbar and select Toolbars->Language bar (ensuring the latter is checked), then right-click again on the language bar itself and select Settings (alternatively, select Start->Settings->Control Panel->Regional and Language Options and, on the Languages tab, click the Details button). This will show the Text Services and Input Languages dialog. Click Add and, under languages, select either English (United Kingdom), English (Ireland) or English (United States). Then under Keyboard layout/IME, select either United Kingdom Extended, Irish or US-International. Any of these combinations should allow you to use the AltGr (Alternate Graphic or right Alt) key to type vowel characters with síntí fada.

Something about the tone of what you wrote BRN really threw me off. Seo duit ar aon nós:
http://archive.oxfordmail.net/2006/7/21/100145.html
Troid leis más mian leat.
Tagaim ar ais ó am go ham nuair a déanaim dearmad ar an cúis gur fhág mé sibh agus ní fada go thagann sé ar ais chugham.
Is mór an trua é.

I use the US-International keyboard configuration and I like it just fine: it accomodates all sorts of commonly accented characters using simple mnemonic devices. For example, the acute accent looks generally like a single-quote mark ('), so when you press ' and then press e, the result is é. Similarly, the ` character indicates a grave accent, " indicates diaeresis, ^ indicates circumflex, and so forth.

It can cause some unintentional typos (such as beginning a quotation that begins with a word starting with a vowel), but you quickly learn to avoid these. It's a real time-saver, I find, over using the Alt+### method.

C/An Croí Ait,

I get what you mean, but I was not been confrontational -I agree that language change cannot be mechanically controlled by one group exactly -but on this site me are more used to focusing on the dis-empowerment of a linguistic group.

Also, I don't know what democratic is supposed to mean -most of the time it is nearly an empty word. Language change reflects changes in lifestyle, technology and so on and would probably change anyway given the slight differences in how each generation picks up language. There is not a great deal of consciousness in the process.

It just sounded like you were saying people had a choice in language, when there are copious counter examples, that's all

I'm still having trouble getting it to work. I'm using a PC with Windows 2000 Pro. I've tried US-International, UK-Ireland Extended, Irish.

Nothing works.

"For example, the acute accent looks generally like a single-quote mark ('), so when you press ' and then press e, the result is é." Tried that too. No luck.

I tried out the U.S. international keyboard out on Vista out of curiosity and the 'e keystroke worked for me.

I don't know anything about 2000 but did you try restarting the machine after changing your keyboard default setting?

Also, in your taskbar there should be a little keyboard icon off to the right. Mouse over it and make sure that the appropriate keyboard setting is selected.

I know that mine reverts back to standard English-US when the machine is idle for a while, and I have to reselect the US-International setting.

Alt0193 = Á
Alt0201 = É
Alt0205 = Í
Alt0211 = Ó
Alt0218 = Ú

Alt0225 = á
Alt0233 = é
Alt0237 = í
Alt0243 = ó
Alt0250 = ú

For those of you operating with Windows, these always work for me. Be sure to set your num lock key and to hold down the Alt key while you type the numbers.