I asked this political question over on politics.ie

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=29297

An bhfuil gá ann le páirtí / gluaiseacht polaitiúil Gaelach, atá 100% ar son na Gaeilge, a thuigeann cúrsaí Gaeilge, atá ina náisiúnaithe cultúrtha, a thuigeann gur tábhachtaí ár dteanga is á gcultúr ná ár saoirse is ár gcearta polaitiúla is ár dtalamh? Is é sin le rá atá dáiríre is fírinneach fán cultúr Gaelach.

An bhfuil áit ann do leagan Éireannach de Phlaid Cymru? Páirtí na nGael?

I ask the same question here but from a socio-linguistc point of view.

Can a minority language survive without strong political support?

Can a minority language survive without specific political support?

For example - Welsh and Breton were in roughly similar positions 50 years ago however whilst a mere few hundred children speak Breton as a first language thousands speak Welsh as a first language.

The difference for me is that the Welsh have a strong 'cultural nationalist' party in Plaid Cymru, Breton has nothing comparable. - Lughaidh?

The differing fortunes of Irish and Scottish Gaelic could also have a political factor in my opinion.

Ní dóigh liom go meallfadh pairtí aon ábhair a dóthain tacaíochta.

Níor éirigh go ró mhaith le feachtas Seanad Daithí Mac Carthaigh, mar shampla.

Nach bhfuil Plaid Cyrmu níos nationalist ná cultural; mar a bhí Sinn Féin i dtús an chéid seo chaite abair?

Ba chuid de ghluaiseacht níos leithe cultúir iad Sinn Féin ag an am - CLG, CnaG, 7 rl. B'iad an eite pholaitiúl iad.

Is cinnte gur ga do ghluaiseacht na Gaeilge stocaireacht éifeachtach pholaitiúl a dhéanamh, ach gan a bheith ceangalaite go ró dlúth le pairtí amháin.

In aon áit san Eoraip ní dóigh liom go bhfuil páirtí ar bith ann a sheasann ar chúiseanna cultúrtha amháin - tá baint ag gach páirtí den chineál sin leis an náisiúnachas.

Tuigim argóintí an dá thaobh ach, i ndáiríre, an bealach a bhfuil an saol ag dul, ní fheictear domh go n-éireodh go ró-iontach le páirtí Gaelach.

Chuirfeadh sé brú ar pháirtithe eile - sin buntáiste amháin - ach seans gur gá tógáil shóisialta a dhéanamh in ionad feachtais eile pholaitiúil.

Luaigh Aonghus stocaireacht níos éifeachtaí, ach cad é mar a chuirfí sin i bhfeidhm?

Gaelgannaire

Sé an difríocht is mó idir an Ghaeilge agus Breatnais ná go bhfuil neamhspléachas bainte amach ag Phoblacht na hÉireann agus níl aon saoirse sa Bhreatain Bhig ó na Sasanaigh. Tá an Bhreatnais mar chuid lárnach den cultúr agus féiniúilacht atá acu agus tá siad bródúil go bhfuil difríocht suntasach idir siadsan agus Sasana. Níl an gá chéana ag na hÉireannaigh. Tá Plaid Cymru lán sásta anois le pairlimint amháin don Bhreatain Bhig seachas a bheith neamhspléach agus ag díriú ar cúiseanna mar tithe don phobal áitiúil ar praighseanna íseal , Breatnais a choiméad beo sa Fro Gymraeg srl. Tá an cheart agat go bhfuil an cultural nationalism níos fearr ann le eagraisí atá sásta dul ar stailc ocrais, léirséail a dhéanamh agus ag dul go dtí an phriosún más gá. ' Siad Conradh na Gaeilge an t-aon eagras sa tír atá sé d 'aidhm acu an Ghaeilge a bheith athuair mar gnáththeanga labhartha muintir na hÉirinn uilig.

quote:

The difference for me is that the Welsh have a strong 'cultural nationalist' party in Plaid Cymru, Breton has nothing comparable. - Lughaidh?

That's right. For many reasons, during a long time, Breton people felt ashamed being Breton and speaking Breton (or Gallo). So now there are no important nationalist party, and those have almost no support from Breton native speakers. There are too many differences in many ways between them and the guys of these parties. I have to say that the Breton elites have left the Breton language several centuries ago. When Brittany was independent (before 1532 AD), the last Duke of Brittany who had Breton died in 1119... So it's a long time since Breton has lost its prestige in the Breton society. In Wales, I think there has always been Welsh speaking rulers, aristocracy, writers, historians etc.

Anyway, regional nationalist parties are almost considered as terrorists stuff by the French government (it's true that some are), and I think most nationalist parties are supported by some intellectuals but not much (if at all) by other people, especially those who speak a minority language. I think most French people (whatever region they live in) consider regional nationalists as odd people...

Hi, Lugaidh!
I just react to your last post !
As far as I'm concerned , I don't consider regional nationalists as odd people . Maybe it's because I am half Irish myself - but I'm half French too .
What I don't like is intolerance . Just for this, I wouldn't like Bretons who wouldn't speak french with me or who would only speak Breton together on the very purpose I am near them (for example). I think it is a sort of verbal violence. Of course, not so serious as physical violence which I hate , and which, I think, doesn't clear up anything!
I had this problem in Luxemburg some years ago : I was there on holyday , and , in a café, people were chatting in their dialect . I saw them clearly look at me when I came in and say things over me in this dialect . I asked them if they would be so kind as to translate what they were saying: they laughed at me . I just went out of this café saying silly words (in english of course, for them to understand),...
This, I think , is intolerance and is no use in perpetuating a language .
I was in Brittany 5 months ago and such a thing never happened to me. I intend to go back there and I hope (and I think) I won't find such intolerant people.
But I dare say many people around me don't think Bretons or Basques are "odd" people .
What I am against is violence, whichever this violence be , verbal or non verbal. I don't think it can help in any ways.
Salut Lugaidh!

Jehan,

Of course in Ireland many regard Irish spoken in any circumstances to be offensive, why should a Breton be reguired to speak French if you could could could both speak in English?

I have had problems with cops trying to force me to speak English for example - I refuse, always, all they have to force me is their violence.

I have no idea what happen to you in Luxembourg but it is a familar story to me that when ever Irish is uttered in a work place people assume is offensive etc.

Lughaidh,

I admire your passion for you language.

I am reminded of the words of Saunders Lewis always in these conversations ...

"Restoring the Welsh language in Wales is nothing less than a revolution. It is only through revolutionary means that we can succeed."

Bretons and Scottish Gaels (and Irish ones!) need to heed these words before it is too late. He didnt mean violence by the way, at least not againist people.

I do not think that any revival (or survival) of Breton can succed in the absence of at least a degree of separatism / cultural nationalsim, regionalism?

Of course Welsh is the language of the Welsh nation, Wales is not a region, but I am quite sure you are well aware of that, unfortuanately I have met many people from Brittany, none of whom felt it was more than a region.

I am very interested in you opinions.

PS, I have a passive understanding of French but I have sworn never to improve it until I can at least have a basic conversation in Breizhoneg (sic!).

Cén fáth ar athraigh sibh ó Ghaeilge go Béarla, a chairde? Tá Gaeilge bhlasta agaibh uilig, nach bhfuil? Cuid den réabhlóid tús áite a thabhairt don teanga, fiú má tá daoine sa seomra nach dtuigeann ró-mhaith í. Míbhéasach, a deir sibh? Céard a déarfadh Saunders Lewis?

Ní éiríonn go maith le "one issue candidates." Cinnte go bhfuil cúpla duine ann ach sin an méid.

Roimh an toghchán cúpla mí ó shin dúirt go leor daoine anseo nach mbeadh polasaithe gaeilge ag barr an liosta s'acu agus iad ag roghnú duine/páirtí.

Tá polasaithe éagsúla ag na páirtithe ar fad, níl ort ach dul leis an bpolasaí is fearr gan amhras.
Ba mhaith liomsa rún a chur os comhair ArdFheis Sinn Féin 2008 ag cur teorainn ama nó a leithéid ar Conor Murphy reachtaíocht ceart a bheith ann do chomharthaí gaeilge sna 6 chontae.. Glacfar lem rún tá mé cinnte de.

quote:

What I don't like is intolerance . Just for this, I wouldn't like Bretons who wouldn't speak french with me or who would only speak Breton together on the very purpose I am near them (for example). I think it is a sort of verbal violence. Of course, not so serious as physical violence which I hate , and which, I think, doesn't clear up anything!

Maybe it wasn't clear, what I meant is: Breton native speakers speak Breton with their friends, some with their family when they speak it too, but most of them switch to French as soon as there is a younger person close to them or anybody they don't know. It's just as if they spoke Breton secretly. That's why you can go through Brittany without hearing a word of Breton. They speak it when there's no "stranger" around who could hear them. And when there's someone around who doesn't know Breton, they switch to French as well. So don't be afraid, you're unlikely to meet Breton people who will switch to Breton on purpose so that you don't understand what they say. It happens, but very rarely, I think.

quote:

I was in Brittany 5 months ago and such a thing never happened to me. I intend to go back there and I hope (and I think) I won't find such intolerant people.
But I dare say many people around me don't think Bretons or Basques are "odd" people .

I've never said that. I said that most French people (in general, including Breton and Basque people) find nationalists are odd people. Most Breton and Basque people aren't nationalists, an dtuigeann tú?

quote:

I do not think that any revival (or survival) of Breton can succed in the absence of at least a degree of separatism / cultural nationalsim, regionalism?

I don't know what Breton needs, actually. To be maintained alive, I mean.
Every case is different: what works in Wales may not work in Brittany, and so on.

quote:

Cén fáth ar athraigh sibh ó Ghaeilge go Béarla

D'fhreagair mise i mBéarla ar cheist i mBéarla... Tá brón orm, ba chóir domh leanstan leis a’ Ghaeilg ar aon nós :-)

It's funny how people will commemorate independence, but it is always the 'loons' who push it forward...in a way people settle into the new country as they did the old -the find a new elite to give their power away to and then get dissatisfied when they look after themselves, not the people like the old elite did. Plus ca change...

quote:

Luaigh Aonghus stocaireacht níos éifeachtaí, ach cad é mar a chuirfí sin i bhfeidhm?

Mar seo!
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=EDJ20071206.xml&Node=H3#H3

Is gá aidhm chinnte a bheith ann, atá le baint amach i dtréimhse gairid. Agus dul ó aidhm go haidhm.

Na smaointe a nochtar i leithéidí paimfléid Mhic Shiomóin, abair, a chuir i gcrích.
http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=4283

A Lughaidh,
So much the better for me if I don't meet Breton people speaking Breton on purpose . All the same, I thought it would be so . And I think I hadn't misunderstood you . I don't think Bretons nationalists are odd people. Because even if you're French, Breton is YOUR culture and it has nothing to do with the Occitan one or the Basque one or even the one of my region (which hasn't got any noun!); and then I think it is quite good of you to speak Breton as much as you can, perpetuate your language and your traditions.

But I think I put it badly because Gaeilgannaire didn't understand quite well what I wrote .
Gaeilgannaire, I was just reporting an anecdote of a behaviour which I hate and which I met sometimes in my journeys. These guys in Luxemburg were laughing at me and that was all, but they were using THEIR language, I mean, taking opportunity of the fact I couldn't understand them, but then , making me having a bad opinion of them . What is the point ? And I think this is violence. The best thing they should have done is to greet me with their words and explain them to me ; then, I would have said : Kind people ! and what a beautiful language and funny the way you greet people in here , and so on,... good souvenirs. But that wasn't their way.
Anyway, in YOUR case, you speak about speaking Irish which is YOUR language in YOUR country: that is all very different and I can feel the utmost violence of what you may have lived ...
Thinking about Breton and Basque again, I don't think separatism would be a good thing . Brittany is really part of France , but regionalism certainly, yes; what I mean is a certain way of making the difference between Brittany and the rest of France : culture, language, food, etc... but many people do feel already like this about Brittany , so much the landscape is already different , . By the way, wasn't it the same with Welsh : Did Wales really ever separate from England ? I don't think so , but , maybe, some people here would know about that far more than me . Because, in fact, separation means (or leads to) non communication . And a language is a means to communicate . Your ideas...?

Jehan,

"Brittany is really part of France"

Of course some people believe(d) that Ireland was British as you beleive that Bretons are French, I don't know that is a question for them.

We Irish have refused always to accept the demise of our nation into a mere region and have fought for hundreds of years againist assimilation and for freedom.

Today, whilst the job is not yet complete, there is an Independent Irish Republic.

Of all the nations in a similar position 100 years ago in Western Europe, The Basque Country, Catalonia, Corsica, Sardinia, Wales, Scotland, Brittany? (Thats a question for Lughaidh and his countrymen? or fellow regional French men), we stand alone in this achievement.

I am sure however that Alba herself will soon join the world of soveriegn and independent states.

So I rarely dismiss any group of people as a mere region. And by the way, Wales was conquered by military force, it was and is legally separate for England.

This should not be a political forum, but perhaps it is inescapable. Anyway, the French states refusal to fund Breton medium schools makes my blood boil frankly : It is that kind of issue a Plaid Cyrmu style movement could tackle.

(Message edited by gaelgannaire on December 11, 2007)

http://www1.fa.knaw.nl/mercator/regionale_dossiers/regional_dossier_breton_in_fr ance2.htm

An interesting article. Lughaidh could perhaps verify the accuracy.

The 'no spitting or speaking Breton' signs in schools grounds disgust me and frankly I question the values of this 'Republic' which treats it its citzens with such a lack of respect for their personal liberity, or their entitlment to equality and even lacks charity and brotherhood to fund schools which seek to revive a culture so willfully and deliberity destroyed.

Vive la difference? mó thón!

It makes me wonder also, France has a huge military, a huge economy, massive international influence, nucleur weapons, the great carrier Foch and the mighty Legion Entrangere.

And yet this powerful state would apparently feel its very existence threatened by the prospect of little Breton, Basque and Corsu speaking children.

What a strange world we live in.

(Message edited by gaelgannaire on December 11, 2007)

Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité...ou la Mort.

Tá stair fada den lárnachas daingean ag an Fhrainc; i bhfad níos lárnaí ná an Ríocht Easaontaithe.

Cosúil leis na Levellers aimsir Chromail, tá amhras orthu faoi aoinne ar mian leis bheith éagsúil.

(Táim ag dul roinnt beag thar fóir, ach...)

An té a mheasas gur chuid den Fhrainc an Bhriotáin, ní furasta dó glacadh leis go bhfuil an Fhrainc in aice na Briotáine.

Lughaidh,

Mhuscáil mé ar maidin agus bhuail smaoineadh mé, más náisiúin í An Bhriotáin, tá bhur dteanga(cha) de dhíth go fóill. Tá fáth lena coinneál beo.

Ach muna bhfuil ann ach réigiúin agus nach bhfuil ins na Briotanaigh ach Francaigh Réigiunda, níl teanga de dhíth, muise is bac í. Ní leor réigiúndachas. Sin an rogha lom dar liomsa.

Ná déanaimis dearmad, tá dúnmharú agus féinmharú de dhíth chun cultúr a mharú agus tá an dá rud ann. Má tá Briotánaigh ag socrú gurb fhearr leo a bheith ina bhFrancaigh, ní labharfaidh siad Briotáinis.

Ach déan leabhar Gaeilge - Briotáinis agus tabharfaidh muidne laimhe cuidiú, cé go bhfuil neart le foghlaim ag na hÉireannaigh go fóill ar ndóigh.

A Jehan a chara,

I understand that initial feeling of "oh dear, they're talking about me aren't they." I've had that feeling before too. But then I think "well now, if I could speak something else with my friends wouldn't I want to be able to do that anywhere I liked?" And thus I just let people be. Then I think even more on it and I say to myself "If I demean these people for speaking language X in public, then it is equal to others demeaning the speaking of Irish in public and I'm determined not to be the sort of person those demeaners are and thus I will be sweet and enjoy the fact that many languages are spoken in my presence". Besides, even if people were mulling me over in their own language I don't care because I'd probably do the same to them if I spoke something they didn't. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht