I saw this topic being debated, and I use the word debated loosely, on another site a while back...and the recent topic of the census and of numbers of Irish speakers brought it back up again in my head.

I think we can all agree that the people who come here are relatively "for Irish." A person would not come here if they hated the language, or had any serious negative feelings towards it. However, it is interesting to see how people feel and think.

There are some who feel that the coffin has been closed for Irish, and we are just waiting for the stubborn to admit it. They say that while many other things before that had led to the serious decline of Irish speakers...the final "nail" so to speak was the Great Famine. After the horrible loss of life and migrations both voluntary and involuntary, the Irish language never had a chance of recovery because the majority of Irish speakers (the poor and middle classes) suffered the greatest losses. This is true.

So now we play the "what if" game...

The claim on the other site before the thread was deleted by the moderator was:
"If the Great Famine had not happened, then the Irish language may have recovered and even replaced English."

Now there are a lot of educated people at this site who I would love to hear their opinions on this topic...does this claim have any value?

Could the fate of the Irish language, which had survived hardships for over 2000 years, really have been sealed in a 5 year span? And more important...had this five year span not happened, could Irish have made a full recovery in Ireland?

The famine was not the final nail in the coffin. Of course the fate of the Irish language could not be decided in a single five-year period. Another factor you fail to mention was the hostility of the RC Church to the Irish language. [The first RC Bible in Irish was published... wait for it... wait for it... in 1980!]

The 1926 census showed that 16% of the population lived in the Gaeltacht, which was larger then than now. The nail in the coffin was the Irish government's decision to reject the Gaeltacht Commission's recommendation to set up an Irish-speaking administration in the Gaeltacht, where you would have had to deal with the government in Irish. There were enough speakers in the 1920s to consider making all schools bilingual. The attitude of the Irish government, and its cynical playing of the green card without any follow-through, was what did for the Irish language.

It is still the same today. The minister of the Gaeltacht, a native Irish speaker, is paid to manage the decline and pretend to show interest in the revival. So he has made a big show of Dingle vs. Dangle as the sign for an English-speaking town in the Gaeltacht that has 4 families in it bringing up their children in Irish. Of course, he **could** insist that all Gaeltacht schools teach in Irish, so that every pupil in the Gaeltacht left school with native competence in Irish. But: that would require exerting himself for his official salary and car. So, many schools even in the Gaeltacht teach their children little Irish (even though the teachers get a supplement in their salary in the Gaeltacht for supposedly teaching in Irish.. .). Don't rock the boat, is the motto of these "ministers" and "teachers". It is frequently stated on this site that the current Ó Cuív minister is good for the Irish language; this is untrue to the point of absurdity. The government's real policy - not the one it announces, but the one that its actions are fostering - is to wrap up the Gaeltacht in a generation.

I think one of the things the government did that did great harm was the whole concept of a gaeltacht in the first place. Once they drew a line in the sand (quite literally) it became okay to expect that Irish wouldn't be spoken on one side of it any longer. "That's the galltacht, after all, and Irish is dead there now."

The idea that Irish was going to thrive in these tiny, disjointed, impoverished (at the time) areas riddled with english speakers while being ignored in the rest of the country was doomed to failure from the start.

Originally, the curse of the gaeltacht was that due to rural poverty it was hemorrhaging Irish speakers. Now that it's become wealthy and fashionable the problem is english speakers moving in and diluting what little Irish speaking population there is.

Will it die out as the community language in a lot of the places where it is currently being used on a razor's edge? Yeah, I could see that. But what needs to be done is to have language measures that affect the whole country. For the first time in centuries I think attitudes are shifting enough to begin to make that possible.

The sense I got when I was over there is that most people I spoke to wished they could speak Irish. Now I say that they "wished" it in the sense that if they could wave a magic wand and be fluent today - or maybe even take a semester class and be fluent - they would happily do it. But more time than that and life just gets in the way.

Having people want to speak Irish is a good start, but people actually have to NEED to speak it in order to start seeing a reversal. English dominance brought Irish to its knees through ruthless policies that made it impractical to continue speaking Irish if one wanted to anything other than farm for a landlord. Irish needs to be just as ruthless if it hopes to make any headway.

the courts and all government bodies and offices need to be Irish only. Establish a plan between five and ten years for making that so (it is impractical now). Interpreters can be provided (making for more jobs) for those who only speak english - especially with the courts.

I've already put out a fifteen year plan for making all schools in the country Irish-medium on this board several times. If that can be done, in one generation the difference would be amazing. In two, we won't be having this discussion anymore.

Part of the problem with a thread like this is that we have six different ideas of what constitutes the language dying.

I have to agree with Antaine...when I say death, I do not mean that it is going to be completely gone and forgotten. I mean it will become and academic language such as Latin, where only handful of scholars might know it.

However, I think there might be some truth to this statement...

I agree that there are other major factors that led to the decline of Irish. But in the end, a language needs speakers and the Famine was the start of a massive loss of life that continued for a very long time.

If I read it correctly, the Irish population decreased about 17% from 1845-1850. This is the most severe "non-war" or "plague" related population decline in recorded history. The problem is that we don't know the actual numbers of deaths...this number may be greater or it may be smaller, this is just an estimate I found at the CSO. And due to the devastation of the Famine, what followed was a mass migration out of Ireland which eventually ended in an Ireland with roughly half the population before the Great Famine. There were an estimated 8 million people in 1845 and roughly 4 million people in 1900.

The reason I bring these numbers up is because I think this is the basis for this debate. It wasn't just a decline in 4 million people, it was a decline in the 4 million people who would have been more likely to have spoken, and continued to speak the Irish language. Irish was being kept strong by the lower and middle classes and these were the people that vanished.

And the fact that the population went down from 1850-1900, which goes against normal population patterns (especially Roman Catholic countries) is very significant because few numbers are easily influenced. The 4 million people who were left did not have the support to keep the Irish language strong, or the support t strengthen it on their own against English. Also the generations that followed never experienced an Ireland with a strong Irish speaking presence so it was easy for them to reject the revival efforts, and they continue to do so even to this day.


So I ask again, based on the topic of number of speakers and what might have been...

"If the Great Famine had not happened, 'could' the Irish language may have recovered and even replaced English."

If Irish people had not been forced by economic necessity to emigrate, mostly to English speaking countries, might they have had nore respect for their language?

Well, obviously!

If the Irish and the Spansih had won the battle of Kinsale, might we all still be Irish speakers?

Well, obviously!


But what good does what if do? I'm more interested in what now!

Tagaim le hAonghus, tá sé go léir ráite cheana féin:

http://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/irlandes/an/i1/i1.html#2.1
The history of language contact in Ireland is closely related to the political, social and economic interaction between the island and its nearest and more powerful neighbour, England. Even as late as the sixteenth century the Irish language was the sole or main language used in Ireland and the English monarchy had established only a modest and tentative foothold in eastem Ireland. But the political changes which began in the seventeenth century with the Tudors had profound long-term consequences for the spatial and social distribution of the two languages. The dispossession and dispersal of the Irish aristocratic families introduced relatively large numbers of native-born English to form a new landlord class. Furthermore, the new colonists were Protestant, the dispossessed Irish and old Anglo-Norman were Catholic. The persistence of this religious divide consolidated and sustained the cultural division between the relatively small Protestant English-speaking ascendancy and the majority of the native Irish-speaking population. To the political and religious barriers, a series of legal enactments were added in the 18th century which prevented Catholics from participating in economic or political affairs. While the developments within the upper class gave a decisive impetus to the process of language shift, the role of the towns, as the main locations of British military and administrative influence, were also significant. Over the eighteenth century the shift to English spread through the urban network, diffusing more slowly but relentlessly into the rural hinterland along a general east-west axis. The first Census of Population to include a question on language was undertaken in 1851. While difficulties of interpretation arise because of the nature of the data, it has been calculated that about 45% of the population were Irish-speaking during the last quarter of the eighteenth century, but this percentage had declined to just under 30% by the mid-nineteenth century. The nineteenth century saw the gradual emergence of the Catholic majority as a powerful political force. The first half of the century was dominated politically by the struggle for Catholic Emancipation which succeeded in 1829 in having virtually all the legal disabilities against Catholics removed - and the Great Famine in the 19840s. Because the Great Famine was relatively more severe in western and poorer regions, most of those who died or emigrated were Irish-speakers. This not merely altered the demographic balance between the two language communities but the subsequent rise of large-scale emigration added a powerful new weight to the incentive to learn English. The second half of the century was dominated by campaigns for political independence and land reform. In the 1880s, both these struggles coalesced into a broad political movement for Home Rule. Although not successful, the following decades saw the growing emergence of the Irish nationalist movement. Simultaneously, as the linguistic shift to English entered an advanced phase, a movement for the preservation of Irish emerged. The most influential organisation of this type the Gaelic League (est. 1893), in fact, took the offensive, aiming for the restoration of the vernacular language rather than just simply trying to preserve it. Although the movement started very slowly, within fifteen years after its foundation some 950 branches had been established throughout Ireland. Its influence was very considerable. In the early twentieth century the language movement was incorporated in the wider political independence struggle. A military rising in 1916 was crushed, but the rebellion continued, and the sustained War of Independence in 1919-21 led to the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921 which conceded Free State status to 26 of the 32 counties of Ireland. The remaining six counties in the north-east Northern Ireland - remained within the UK. While the Anglo-Irish War was still in progress (1917-1922), the Provisional Government established a Department of the National Language. Despite the well established dynamic of decline and the unpromising contemporary pattern of bilingualism - no more than 18% of the populations were Irish-speakers, the newly independent state in 1922 launched a comprehensive strategy to reverse the process of shift towards English and restore Irish as the national language. The crucial difference between the Irish case and the language policy of other European nationstates, of course, was the fact that by the beginning of the twentieth century, Irish was the language of a dominated, peripheral minority rather than an elite group. The establishment of the Free State was followed by a civil war, which lasted until Ig23. A*.er this, the normal processes of democratic government were successfully established and maintained. Ireland remained neutral during the Second World War and in 1948 the Republic of Ireland Act was passed, removing the remaining constitutional link with Britain. In 1973, Ireland became a member of the European Communities

A chairde,

When the topic of reviving/strengthening the Irish language is being discussed, I often hear people citing the example of Hebrew in the state of Israel.

However, I think the Welsh language is a better example for an Irish language revival. It seems that Welsh is a lot healthier these days (incl Welsh-language media), and that change has been accomplished in a relatively short timespan.

I'd suggest that Irish language activists look to the Welsh for tactics and inspiration, and indeed meet with Welsh language activists to share thoughts and plans.

Is mise, le meas,
Paul

Aonghus, I agree with you completely.

But it is interesting to be able to say there may have been an actual "straw that broke the back" of the Irish language.

It was numbers that hurt the language and it will be numbers that fix the problem.

However, the Irish language seems to be circling the drain while it now has the largest number of people with the ability to bring it back in over a 160 years. Almost 40% if you accept the numbers of the 2006 census.

I think this is very interesting and says a lot about the modern Irish people.

What I want to know...and I think it was the same thing that other person wanted to know..."Was the Great Famine the straw?"

Sorry I did not see the last post...

I agree the Welsh are a wonderful example to model off of in the Celtic revival efforts.

I think this for two reasons, one they are another Celtic language trying to gain a little recognition in the modern world...

But what I think really stands out with the Welsh revival efforts is that they took the same approach as modern Irish efforts did but they didn't make the same mistakes.

They knew that the answer was in the children and younger generations, however, their primary focus was making the language something the younger generations can relate to and use in the modern world. They focused on modern and contemporary themes that appealed to children.

If I had to create a motto that compared the two different mentalities that I see happening with Welsh and Irish revival efforts then I would create a big sign that said, "Welsh is the language of today, Irish...the language of yesterday."

I am not making fun of Irish in any way...just stating that I feel that Ireland tends to rely on the appeal and glory of an Irish that was...more than the appeal of glory of an Irish that can be now.

Ba bheag meas an Chadhnaigh ar mhuintir na Breatnaise mar eiseamláirí dúinn.

An bhfuil aon chaint ar nuachtán laethúil acu, níl a fhios agam, an bhfuil?

The Basques have to be the best example of how to shift language.

A Sheosaimh, a chara,

Dar le www.ybyd.com: “Y BYD ('The World') will be the first ever daily newspaper in the Welsh language. It will be launched on 3 March 2008.”

Níor chaith mé ach seachtain sa Bhreatain Bheag uair amháin, ach cheap mé go raibh cuisle níos láidire sa teanga sin na an Ghaeilge, ‘brón orm a rá.

Paul

Grma as an nasc sin a Paul. An Bith - Y Byd. Ní raibh a fhios agam an raibh siad tosaithe nó nach raibh.

Tá go leor ar a son, muintir na Breatnaise, ach braithim go bhfeicfimid feabhas abhus inár measc féin. Ní raibh Diarmuid Johnson rómhuiníneach roinnt blianta ó shoin nuair a mhol an tAire Ó Cuív go leanfaí conair na Breatnaise. Foinse a d'fhoilsigh an t-alt.


Beidh spéis ag Lughaidh sa cheann seo:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~cuisle1/eagran1/briotainise.htm

I'd suggest that Irish language activists look to the Welsh for tactics and inspiration, and indeed meet with Welsh language activists to share thoughts and plans.

Aontaím go hiomlán, is iad muintir na Breatnaise agus muintir na Bascaise an dá dhream is mó lenar cheart dúinn teagmháil a dhéanamh agus foghlaim uathu.

Tá am caite agam sa dá thír agus tá teagmháil agam le grúpaí Cymraeg agus Euskara. Ar ndóigh bíonn daoine sna Gaeil Óga agus Ógras i mbun imeachtaí le cainteoirí Breatnaise go minic agus is léir ó shuíomh idirlín na gCeithearn Coille go bhfuil meas acu féin ar leithéidí Cymdeithas. Ní mór teagmháil a spreagadh le Gaeil na hAlban chomh maith.

An Ghaeilge Abú! Cymraeg am byth! Gora Euskara!

A Dho_chiniuint a chara,

I'll play the what if game with you, even if others don't see it as a valid use of energy. I wouldn't say that the famine was the final straw. But I would say that perhaps it was the biggest single event to put Irish on the road to trouble, with said trouble being confirmed by economic policies against its use. Before the famine the situation hadn't reached a critical point yet but by the end of the famine's residual effects things were in lamentable shape and were getting worse.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Grma a Sheosaimh ar son an ailt sin, char léigh mé é.

Is cineál eisceachta é baile an Chapel Nevez, le fírinne. Is beag áit sa Bhriotáin ina bhfaghthar Briotáiniseoirí gomh hóg sin! Tá chóir a bheith achan Bhriotáiniseoir níos sine ná 60 bliain. Síltear nach bhfuil ach 500 duine óg sa Bhriotáin a tógadh le Briotáinis dhúchais.

Is cinnte go mbeidh i gcónaí daoiní ar mian leofa Briotáinis a dh’fhoghlaim agus a labhairt, ach síleam féin go bhfuighidh an teangaidh bás mar theangaidh nádúrtha (ie. tugtha ó ghlúin go glúin) i gcionn fiche bliain.

Maidir leis na scoltacha a bhaineas feidhm as an Bhriotáinis mar theangaidh chumarsáide, mar atá scríofa i ndeireadh ’n ailt sin, ní dóigh liom go bhfuil siad úsáideach fá láthair: níl a’ chuid is mó do na múinteoirí líofa sa teangaidh ar chor ar bith, agus chan í Briotáinis an phobail a theagasctar ach cineál caighdeáin (nach bhfuil mórán maithe ann) nach bhfuil róchosúil le teangaidh ’n phobail. Hathraíodh ’n ghramadach, hathraíodh ’n foclóir, fuaimníthear í fá mar a bheadh Fraincis ann: fágann sé nach féidir leis na páistí scoile labhairt leis na Briotáiniseoirí dúchais siocair nach dtuigeann siad a chéile an chuid is mó don am. Cén mhaith sin ? Sin an cheist a fhiafraíom domh féin le bliantaí!

Fostaíthear daoiní ar bheagán Briotáinise mar mhúinteoirí siocair go bhfuil cuid mhór múinteoirí de dhíth sna scoltacha sin, agus cha fhaghthar go leor acu, mar sin fostaíthear achan nduine, is cuma munab fhuil ach cupla focal aige... Agus dá dheasca sin, sa deireadh, ní bhíonn ach droch-Bhriotáinis ag na páistí (ie. an caighdeán a luaigh mé, labhartha le cuid mhór meancóg). Ní mar sin a shábhálfar an teangaidh...

I think the battle of Kinsale was the straw that broke the language.

After that, it was no longer the language of our rulers.

It is true that this was reversed in England (courtly French was superceded by English), but I don't know that that worked elsewhere.

http://www.obrien.ie/TitleInfo.cfm?BookID=299

This small book is short overview of all the questions being pursued here (again).

It is well worth a read.

Go raibh maith agat as an nasc sin, a Aonghuis.

Tá alt suimiúil léite agam inniu, ón NY Times,
alt dar tideal "A Yiddish Revival, With New York Leading the Way" ag NYtimes.com.

Paul

Lughaidg, I am sorry because I can't understand half of what you are saying since my Irish isn't good enough .
nevertheless, I would be very interested to know what you think about Breton .
As far as I know, I think the revival of Breton is being made in a very clever way , just because, it is associated with history, pleasure and good living . I wouldn't say the same thing about Basque (as somebody wrote it). Concerning Basque, you must make a difference between French Basque and Spanish Basque : French Basque is not very vivid because of the little number of Basque speaking people and because there is a real supremacy of French all over France. Nevertheless, it is respected and I think young generations would like to know it , but I doubt if it would ever be used in economy , etc...on the other hand, Basque is more vivid in Spain, but it is associated with rebellion and civil war. In Spain you have altogether other languages which are vividly spoken : Catala and Galician ; the fact that there are 3 other languages than Castillan make it maybe more normal for Basque to exist .
In France, the Catalan part is very little and the occitan one too . Breton is the most vivid of all these provincial languages and I really think it is because of its being associated with positive and pleasant things, and of course a deep desire of the young generations. And a revival of bilingual teaching . But Lughaidh , that's maybe what you were explaining, and far better than me since you are Breton. Sorry.
But as somebody was wondering : could anybody explain me why Welsh is so present in everyday life (or so it seems to a foreigner) and not Irish? I went once in Wales and heard (and read) Welsh everywhere. I went 2 times in Ireland and never heard one sound of Irish (of course it was not in the Gaeltacht). Being turned towards the future is a good thing but has it been sufficient for Welsh to be so widely spread and remain spoken throughout the whole country (of Wales )?

Go to page 3/4 here http://www.jstor.org/view/00167398/ap020530/02a00030/2?frame=noframe&userID=c101 646d@ul.ie/01cce4405a00501cc2071&dpi=3&config=jstor Jehan and you shall see that the land area of Welsh is great, despite the lower population density (even if it is the 1930s). Some two thirds of the people live in the south-east corner.

The rot has advanced well beyond this if one had a comparable map of Ireland by the 1930s. Here's 1971 including non-native speaker and self-proclaimed speakers! http://languages.miensk.com/Interactive_maps/Europe/Ireland.htm

In all fairness....

I think it's more realistic to look at Wales as a "Cymraegtacht" of England. It is a community on the island that has dedicated itself to resurrecting its native language. Not unlike some of the more serious and robust Gaeltachtai of Ireland.

Had Jehan visited Conamara or Ballyferriter he might (and I do seriously mean "might") have seen Irish in every day use as he did Welsh in Wales. However, the truth is that you'll hear about as much Irish in Shannon or Limerick as you will Welsh in Liverpool or London....

I do think the Welsh experience has a lot to teach us about resurrecting a language (focus on the children, etc) and I do believe that some of those lessons are being applied through TG4...ie; children's programming as gaeilge. However, from all I can gather (being non-native and educated far across the ocean) the educational approach to Irish has not changed much over the past 75 years. It's still boring, repetitive and on some levels even punitive in its delivery. Learning must be FUN, especially when the subject taught has no apparent utility.

My thoughts....sorry....didn't mean to ramble.

Gabh mo leithscéal for the color scheme and alphabet in the link above. Maidir le scoileanna, take a little bit of heart from the graph in Gaelscoil growth outside of the Gaeltacht. http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/index.php?page=reamhra&lang=gaeilge&tid=2 It's not a perfect solution but the change has to start somewhere and a Gaelscoil is still well ahead of the usual system which has failed, down the years, to produce bilinguals. The same goes for other countries in similar situations.

- Níor chaill fear an mhisnigh riamh é.

- Níl aon pholl chomh domhain le poll an amhrais.

The Welsh speaking area is not called the Cymraegtacht. It is called: Y Fro Gymraeg.

The problem is tha the gaelscoileanna are teaching in "standard" Irish, and when the gaeltacht disappears this will be the only variant of Irish still taught. I can't support a Gaelscoil movement that is passing on this type of Irish. If the CO is finally left as the only variant of Irish spoken or written by anyone in Ireland, it will be a horrible step-child of the Irish language that has not right to exist. Do Gaelscoileanna exist that teach in genuine Irish?

""The Welsh speaking area is not called the Cymraegtacht. It is called: Y Fro Gymraeg. ""

I understand that.....my point was that we should look at it along the model of a Gaeltacht in as much as it is a region of a larger country where the native language is preferred over English.

Like the gaeltacht which is a region of a country where the native language is preferred over english....


JHC!!!!! What does it take to communicate on this freakin' board!?!?!?!

Support whatever organizations and movements you like, but please do take a minute and listen to what you're saying! Let's suppose your worst fears come true, and "the CO is finally left as the only variant of Irish spoken or written by anyone in Ireland." That's patently absurd, but whatever. Suppose it does.

In other words, let's suppose that "there comes a day when all native Irish speakers are native speakers of the CO."

You're saying that when that happens, the language will have "no right to exist" any longer and we should just kill it? Ban it? Shut down the Gaelscoileanna at that point, even though what they're teaching will correspond precisely to all current native speech?

I see no earthly reason that a (more or less arbitrary) standard and (more or less organic) dialects cannot coexist in Irish. They do in most languages. Is your grievance with this particular CO, or with the idea of having one at all?

Josh comments :"The problem is the gaelscoileanna are teaching in "standard" Irish, and when the gaeltacht disappears this will be the only variant of Irish still taught. I can't support a Gaelscoil movement that is passing on this type of Irish. If the CO is finally left as the only variant of Irish spoken or written by anyone in Ireland, it will be a horrible step-child of the Irish language that has not right to exist. Do Gaelscoileanna exist that teach in genuine Irish?"
Gaelscoileanna are for 1. Middle-class
2.A system of 'Educational Apartheid '
3. Race/Ethnic Apartheid.
4.It makes the Middle Class "feel good towards the language"
How come with all these Gaelscoileanna in existence for about a decade that the standard of the spoken word is still falling.? Teaching Methods?? Teachers ability to speak the language as well as read the language?
Since our Independence, FF have been in power longer than the other parties and they don't give a MONKEY'S for our native tongue.I can read French and pronounce the words but I cannot string a sentence together and know what the words mean.I cannot teach French and NO WAY should I be allowed? The same should apply to teachers regardless of Degrees/Certs/Papers etc. Your Opinions??

(Message edited by mickrua on October 17, 2007)

Well then, I suppose not everyone around here is for Gaelscoileanna eh? I think that most of us wouldn't share a large portion of your feelings except for the sentiment that teachers need to be better at teaching the language or else the elliquence level of the students will be low and thus will bring the standard of spoken Irish down in other places potentially, though not necessarily.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Abigail, "standard" Irish is not spoken by any native speakers of Irish. It is not native Irish. It is no more native to Ireland than Esperanto. While some people have been raised speaking it, that bears comparison with "revived Cornish", another phoney language.

The solution is to introduce proper Irish into the gaelscoileanna, ie bring back the gaelchló (I don't call it seanchló), the correct spellings, the correct grammatical forms.

However, with people around who are calling for the "abolition" of lenition, eclipsis, the genitive case and the copula (like Ireland's top translator at the EU), the so-called standard (actually substandard) is going to lurch further in the direction of Esperanto.

I for one would strongly support the closure by the government of all schools teaching "standard" Irish once real Irish is gone. Schools should teach an educated variant of a language, not an artificially debased variant. Once real Irish is gone, Irish is also gone, just as revived Cornish does not mean that proper Cornish is not a dead language.

"It is no more native to Ireland than Esperanto."

It is a series of compromises between dialects and some simplifications of things like spellings. It is far from perfect, but it is not an invented language like Esperanto or Klingon.



I agree with you on gaelcló/seancló - I use it myself and find it easier to read than romanized Irish. However, my understanding of the situation is that prior to the CO there was no unified standard spelling system - so which "real" spelling would you like to see? I do have to say, however, that many of the "old, cumbersome" spellings are actually easier because they follow patterns in conjugation etc.



On the subject of gaelscoil Irish being illegitimate - While there are many people in the Gaeltacht who care about the language, many more (most?) obviously do not care enough to do what it takes to pass it on to the next generation adequately. This means parents controlling the TV, business people refusing to compromise and speak english, people only purchasing Gaeilge newspapers and the whole nine yards. Instead what happens? People get tired, and they give in and follow the path of least (english) resistance. THAT is what got Irish into the state it's in today in the first place. Before it was giving into the situation created by the british, and now it's giving into the same situation perpetuated by modern Irish society. If the native speakers (and I don't mean the minority that do such things, but I do mean the rest) don't "care" enough to do those things I mentioned above then the future of the language does not lie with them, but with those who are willing to learn it and adopt it as their own.

A thousand learners who will become fluent (even in Gaelscoil Irish) and pass the language on to their children will do far more for the Irish language than all the road signs in Kerry.

Antaine, you are wrong. Dinneen's dictionary published in 1927 was seen as standard.

You say:

"Before it was giving into the situation created by the british, and now it's giving into the same situation perpetuated by modern Irish society."

Actually, this is not quite right. No one forced the hedge schools to teach in English under British rule. The Catholic Church chose to teach in English in the 19th century, for the same reason as pertains today, because it was seen as denying a child opportunities in the economy to teach him only Irish. The same thing applies today: if there were a suggestion to ban any teaching of English at all in the Gaeltacht, there would be uproar, because it would cut off the opportunities for those children.

You said:

"A thousand learners who will become fluent (even in Gaelscoil Irish) and pass the language on to their children will do far more for the Irish language than all the road signs in Kerry."

Well, no, they might as well be learning Esperanto.

Let me clarify, Antaine. What I wrote above is just a personal view, and so should be respected as such, but I understand others may not agree.

I would not be happy if the following type of English were taught in schools:

I ain't got nuffink in the 'ouse except ta'ers to eat, coz I ain't bin down the shops yet. I fink I should of brought sumfink last week to go wiv the ta'ers.

[ta'ers = potatoes]

The only difference is that the above paragraph is much closer to good English than the CO is to good Irish (=the Irish of Peadar O Laoghaire, Dinneen etc). If the above paragraph were being taught in school as "standard English", I would say, it is time to throw in the towel.

It is only a personal view thought. De gustibus non est disputandum.

Is cás caillte eile leis an rómánsachas Fíor-Ghaeltachta thú a Josh, is eagal liom. Níl aon mhaith ann. Dá mbeadh milliún aonteangach Gaeilge ar an saol, bheadh stuaim le do thuairim, ach níl ach roinnt céadta gasúr á dtógáil le Gaeilge le glúin anuas. Naíonraí Gaeilge a theastaíos sa gcuid is mó den Ghaeltacht, faraor, leis an nGaeilge a chothú ann feasta, mar gur nós le cuid mhaith mhór de mhuintir na Gaeltachta le fada, a ngasúir a thógáil le Béarla. Ní hé sin amháin é, ach cruthaíonn cuid acu naíonra Béarla dóibh chomh maith.

Is furasta an cainteoir dúchais Gaeilge a aithint thar an gcainteoir Gaeltachta. Is é sin, an té a bhfuil sí aige as an gcliabhán seachas an té a thóg leis í as an gcomharsain ar an mbealach abhaile. Casadh dom beirt inné as an nGaeltacht. Bean amháin a tógadh le Gaeilge agus an bhean eile a thóg óna cara í. Déarfadh an darna bean leat gur cainteoir dúchais Gaeilge í. Is fearr go gceapfadh sí sin, ach ní fíor. Is cainteoir Gaeltachta í, nach cainteoir dúchais Gaeilge. Is iomaí duine dá cineál, cuid acu ag láithriú cláracha. Níl le déanamh ach éisteacht oíche ar bith leo.

Ní léir duit a laghad cainteoirí dúchais Gaeilge atá fanta sa nGaeltacht. Is dream ar leith iad a bhfuil meas acu ar an oidhreacht a bronnadh orthu. Tá siad sin timpeallaithe ag daoine isteach, agus ag muintir na háite a bhfuil a n-úil amach. Tá siad in ann méid áirithe tionchair a imirt, ach is treise fórsaí an stáit agus an aineolais choitinn ná iad. Tuigeann siad a thruamhéile is atá an scéal agus cuireann sé cumha orthu nach bhfuil ach mionlach sa tír ag iarraidh teacht roimh an mbuille cniogtha.

Ná dall thú féin ar a bhfuil ar siúl sa nGaeltacht ná san Iar-Ghaeltacht. Tá obair le déanamh agus ná cuireadh éinne againn am amú le daille.

Josh,
have you any first hand experience of Ireland or the Gaeltacht?

Aonghus, can you deny anything I have said? Apparently not!

Are you denying that the CO is a departure from historical Irish? If you can't speak to this theme, I think you should open a different thread.

I do deny it.

Despite all the carping here, the CO was devised as a sensible compromise by a team of eminent scholars, most of whom were from the Gaeltacht.

It is no more a departure from "historical" Irish than current German orthography and grammar is a departure from the good German of Goethe and Schiller. Committees of scholars were involved there too.

It is true that the CO did not emerge organically as other standards did. That issue has been discussed to death here. But it fulfils the requirement for a standard, and does not in any way imply that living dialects are substandard.

I asked the question above in English, since you are clearly unable to follow or respond to Seosamh's more comphrehensive statement.

(In the context of your castigating the Catholic Church, I find it ironic that both your examples for good Irish are Roman Catholic priests....)

My three ha'pence worth.

None of my family spoke Irish when I was growing up. I therefore learned school (standard) Irish. That and a three week stint in Arannmore Island in 1968 was my only exposure to the language.

I am now one of those people who are "diluting the Gaeltacht" as I have had the good fortune to be able to buy a house there. My current work situation precludes me from living there full time but I'm there as often as I can

I can communicate with my Gaoluinn-speaking neighbours with my (somewhat weak but improving) standard Irish. They are happy for me to do so and I have never been made to feel that they would prefer me to use their dialect (or to use English).



The fact is we communicate and that is all that seems to matter. My experience with Gaeltacht people is that their language is their language - natural, dynamic unselfconcious, full of loan words - and outsiders can take it or leave it. It is a living language as natural to them as breathing, and I feel priviledged to be a part of it when I can.


The important thing for me is that more and more people develop an interest in using Irish and are not made to feel inferior because their Irish is not dialectic.

To coin a phrase in this context

Is fearr Gaeilge an Chaighdean ná Bearla cliste

Is fearr.

Scríobh Aonghus ... That issue has been discussed to death here. ...

Áiméan a deirim. And death echoes around that whole angle. Purism is up there with elitism and is a road leading to one person in one townland in one parish on their own refusing to listen or talk, lánstad. Gheobhaidh an Ghaeilg bás in éineacht liom, Eoghanaidh Eoghanaidh Eoghanaidh, mar gur mise an Dying Gaul of Irish. (Ba cheart taighde a dhéanamh orm, dála an scéil.)

Tá an saol róghearr agus an Béarla brocach róghar don chnámh le beith ag cur is ag cúiteamh faoi nithe a socraíodh fadó. 'Ar cheart séimhiú thall is urú abhus', nuair is cuma mar ba chuma mar a chéile míle bliain ó shoin nuair a chéadbhuail Turgésius a chuarán ar Chéibh an Adhmaid.

Tá bealach eile leagtha amach romhainn. Táimid le gabháil chun tosaigh le séimhiú nó le hurú nó dá n-uireasa, ach nílimid le stad.

quote:

Tá bealach eile leagtha amach romhainn. Táimid le gabháil chun tosaigh le séimhiú nó le hurú nó dá n-uireasa, ach nílimid le stad.

Áiméan a deirimse freisin! Is suimiúil an rud é nach cainteoirí líofa iad na purists seo den chuid is mó, ach daoine thar lear atá ag foghlaim na Gaeilge -- nó ag smaoineamh ar í a fhoghlaim! Dála an scéil, tá mé réasúnta cinnte gurb ionann an "Josh" seo thuas agus duine eile a bhíodh ár gcrá faoin ainm "David Webb" tamall ó shin.

Having read the comments of others here, I am certain my thoughts are going to upset someone however...

I have always thought the CO gets a very bad reputation in general. People tend to reject it on terms of being "artificial."

But the truth is, I feel that the CO is going to be the salvation of the language. I honestly believe that there is nothing wrong with it, that it allows for an Irish medium of communication that English will never be able to provide ;0)...and whether we like to admit it or not...the CO just might be the new Irish.

I think that those of us who are set in our ways on the "dialect vs CO" debate need to accept that the coming generations of Irish speakers are not coming from the Gaeltachts and that their Irish has to...and is going to...relfect that.

So bringing this thread slightly back on topic ;0)

"If people overcame the dialect differences which for some reason do seem to be a factor with the Irish language for people...could that be enough to seriously turn the numbers around for the Irish language."

An-léirsteanach a Dennis. D'fhéadfadh sé gurb ea.

B'fhéidir nach bfhuil se ach sé a josháil linn

josháil = focal ársa Gaoluinn ó baile fearainn scoite i gCorca Dhuibhne

Do-chinniúint .... "If people overcame the dialect differences which for some reason do seem to be a factor with the Irish language for people...could that be enough to seriously turn the numbers around for the Irish language."

Táimid slán, nach mór, ó thosaigh RnaG. Ar a laghad ar bith, ní tharlaíonn easaontas den chineál so ach i measc mhuintir an Bhéarla, don chuid is mó, mar a luaigh Dennis thuas.

Ar bhuail éinne agaibh leis an bhfocal "deois" riamh? Inclination of the head is ciall leis, de réir FGB: deois a chur ort féin.

Níor bhuail. 'Goic' ar a mhuineál, nó chuir sé 'goic' air féin, a bheadh agam féin.

Though I do think that dialects are a bit more desirable than CO, I don't think CO is evil or horrible or a shame to the language as Josh does. I think he needs to settle down.

And Josh, don't be rude to Aonghus, he is very much one of the cleverest ones here and he asked a very legitimate question.

Aon bhaint ag an 'geois' agatsa le 'geolbhach'? Sílim gur chuala mé, tamall ó shoin, fear aneas ar RnaG a raibh 'geoiseach' / 'geosach' aige ar eagán circe.

Níl ann ach 'sílim'.

Excuse me for my question which could be regarded as silly : what is CO?
I'm not quite sure to understand but I think it has something to do with the french Académie Française.
But do tell me if I'm right.
And, if I can add a cent here :
The Académie Française is not that bad in France . It helps having a certain unity in the language, ; it is a reference and if ever some one is doubtful about the way a word or a phrase has got to be pronounced or built up , he or she can look in a dictionary and have an answer which has been elaborated by a group of grammarians and professors (not that bad...) I think , we must'nt despise such a thing , which is just a reference and doesn't help French people from speaking in other ways in other times if they want it, with the respect of other regional dialects.
But there is a standard french which is guaranteed by this academy .
It helps maintain french a vivid language , it permits foreign words to be either rejected or aprooved and francicised (with a given way of pronouncing them). Well I think it's very helpful . And then it makes french stay a modern language .
And if you read old french or even french of the 19th century, you discover a lot of differences. Things have had to be settled down and be decided for once . And the Académie Française has had a great role in there (even if many people do deny it).
So, maybe , it is not that bad if CO (in the way I understand this word) tries to settle down and unit 3 Irish dialects . The trouble is that it is certainly more difficult than French because these 3 dialects seem individually very strong .
I don't go for a simplification of the writing . French is difficult in its writing , ;
on the other hand, if you look at Russian : The spelling has been changed after the revolution of 1917; it has been simplified . Some letters have just been taken away . And though they had a grammatical or etymological reason to exist . What if it had'nt been simplified ? I don't know .
Well, I leave it to you of course . I just intended to give you my point of view .
Personnally, I love the ancien spelling of many words in Irish but I must admit that it is far easier for me to learn the new spelling system .
So, if it helps Irish to live ...

An Caighdeán Oifigiúil, a standard and generally agreed form of written Irish, which allows for dialect. Scottish Gaelic wasn't included in the reappraisal. There have been additions to it, the last five dative words took a quiet bow out about 1994 or so. Any others from then on I haven't noticed. One may still use datives for any reason one feels like and I often do.

Jehan a scríobh: .... Personnally, I love the ancien spelling of many words in Irish but I must admit that it is far easier for me to learn the new spelling system .
So, if it helps Irish to live ...

Sin é go díreach.

Nílimid ag déanamh chomh dona sin, d'ainneoin místuaim uimhreacha féintugtha:

Census (Volkszählung)
Zahl der Irisch-Sprecher

1861 ------ 1,077,087
1861 ------ 1,077,087
1871 ------ 804,547
1881 ------ 924,781
1891 ------ 664,387
1901 ------ 619,710
1911 ------ 553,717
1921 ------ 543,511
1926 ------ 540,802
1936 ------ 666,601
1946 ------ 588,725
1961 ------ 716,420
1971 ------ 789,429
1981 ------ 1,018,413
1986 ------ 1,042,701
1991 ------ 1,095,830
1996 ------ 1,430,205
2002 ------ 1,570,894
2006 ------ 1,656,790

http://www.linguae-celticae.org/Gaeilge.htm

Is de réir a chéile a tógadh na caisleáin agus is de réir a chéile a bhrisfear iad.

We are tending to beat up on each other over things that can't be altered. The Caighdeán Oifigiúil is no more and no less 'legitimate' than is the official standard of any language, it just happens to be relatively new. Most of the European states we are familiar with today, took deliberate decisions to revive and/or standardise their languages back in the 19th Century when the great powers were breaking up. Look at the history of Norway, Finnland, Rumania, Hungary, even Greece, etc, etc. Irish was unfortunate in being much later and in having the world's most powerful language pressing in on it from all sides, from both Britain and America.

Someone once said a language is a dialect with an army and navy (and I suppose you'd have to toss in an airforce as well nowadays). All of the languages that dominate the world are standardised amalgamations of local dialects. Standardisation in pronouncation, in spelling, in grammar, in meanings, was a process of centralising governments in the formation of the state. Language is a process of communication that is continually changing and without artificial constraints like an education system and a legal system none of the languages we have today would be co-terminous with the states that regard them as their 'national' language or 'native' tongue.

Mar focal scoir, I'd say look at English. It is almost unrecognisable today from the language of Shakespeare, certainly insofar as the sound of it is concerned, but we can still love his language and study it and even criticise his plays using our modern English to do so. Its not a zero sum game, we need not throw out the old to embrace the new. I've attended many conferences and seminars and summer schools (even one or two winter schools..brrr) and after a couple of hours was so swept up in the rush of lectures, talks and casual conversation in Irish that I clean forgot to notice if people were speaking in 'genuine' dialects or in CO Irish.

Seanfhear

quote:

Someone once said a language is a dialect with an army and navy

Is teanga canúint a bhfuil stáitseirbhís aici!

Seanfhear,

It is true that we continue to bring up and debate about issues that are more than beyond any of us to change and control, however, it is through this process that change eventually happens.

Just as we are doing it here at this forum, so too are the politicians on the political level and the scholars on the academic level. And while it may seem like we are doing nothing but going around in circles and accomplishing nothing, the truth is we are actually doing something very important. We are keeping the fire burning that helps fuel the motivation for change and improvement on the upper levels that have the influence to do something. Who knows it make be the debates here that someday inspire a future political leader to take action for the language...

The other thing to think about is that we continue to bring up and debate the same issues...why? Because these are the same issues that are causing the same problems when it comes to people and the language. And if they are causing issues with us, they are probably causing similar issues with those who are not here.

Looking at past posts and threads, what is are some of the serious concerns of every beginner of Irish? Dialects!!! Why? If it is true that in the great scheme of things, dialects don't matter, then why bother to mention them at all? If the CO was not a problem, why would it be causing so many people to complain about it? And the list of issues goes on...

That's why I like these types of threads. Yes it is true that they don't solve any problems, and someone always gets upset in them. But a "what if" thread allows for people to throw out their thoughts both good and bad, and through the course of debate we can hammer out their strengths and weakness.

Again, is this really doing anything? I don't know. But it could be and that's the point.

A Sheosaimh,
Thanks for your explanation of what CO is;
The figures you write down in the following paragraph can give us hope for the future; even if they don't reflect reality and so far must be reduced a little, they show that the interest in the language is far from decreasing.

A Dho_chiniuint a chara,

And How! (for those not familiar with this expression it means "I theroughly agree!" I really enjoy these threads because people are passionate about these issues and I think debate and discussion is a healthy and constructive activity, even if we aren't in charge and so technically can't change any of it on our own. I enjoy watching the dynamics between people as a curiosity, seeing what makes people get riled and why. I must confess that I don't completely understand the workings of what pushes people to get upset over things said on this forum but it is interesting to watch and be here to express my ideas.

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Riona,

I think you already said why people get upset about things "written" on this site...passion.

The average person might see this website, look through it, and then move on. The people who continually visit and participate here are not "average" people. For whatever our reasons, we are passionate about a common topic, the Irish language. Maybe we were all Irish speakers in another life...who knows ;0)

But there is something about this language that we connect with on a very deep level. I think the problem is that we are human beings ;0)

We all have very different ways of viewing the Irish language. And because we tend to view the language differently, we tend to concentrate on different aspects of the language. And often, we get upset because we feel that people are concentrating on certain things that we do not feel are worth the time and effort. Instead we would rather see this time and effort be spent on the things we think are important about the language.

Also, I put "written" in quotations because we cannot be there when a person posts something, so we can't know what they really meant when they wrote it. We can only assume a meaning and that is dangerous because we might take it the wrong way.

If you saw this sentence "I think anyone who learns Irish is crazy." You do not know exactly what I mean by this. I could be saying this negatively, or I might be making a positive joke. I think a lot of fighting starts because people do not check their posts for comments that can be taken differently than they were intended to mean. I think a good majority of the bickering could be minimized if people checked their meanings along with their spelling and grammar...LOL

Showing what I mean is why I put smileys next to any sarcastic remarks I might make, thus hopefully getting the message across that I'm playing or being silly. I can't, off the top of my head, think of a time that someone became upset with me because of misunderstanding my sarcasm. The only times people get upset with me are when I say something that I really mean and people take offense to it. Either this or people just don't tell me when their upset with me because I'm just the website's resident "touched" one :) :)

If I'm going to say something controversial I usually preface it with some sort of a warning like "you may find this undesirable but..."

The funniest time that I was ever misunderstood by another was that time I expressed the opinion that the Wild Geese should have never left because it wasn't a brave thing to do and Bearn freaked out and told me I was a horrible person because I thought all people who had ever left Ireland at any time were cowards. Reading posts theroughly really helps, as he sheepishly learned that day.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I've enjoyed reading the posts and learning from other peoples points of views. I thikn it does help to put these issues out on the table.

When I was going to school (1975 to 1988) whatI dreaded most was "Irish". The teachers were so boring, rigid, and almost terrifying. Also, becasue my parents knew little to no Irish it was very difficult to pick any of it up and so this compounded the problem. I'd have to say looking back on it I developed a hate for Irish in school. Besides some of the teachers were not that good and not that accomodating to those of us that were 'slow' at picking it up and this added to the hate/fear of the language.

It wasn't until I was 17 or so that I started wanting to learn Irish on my own. I got a book from the library and in the space of a few short months I learned more Irish by myself than I did in the previous 11 or so years in the school system. I hope they have changed how it's taught or at least in the process of changing it otherwise they'll turn countless thousands off the language. Since then I've developed a love for it (still can't speak it) but now I wnat it to live and survive. I have to admit that learning from books and tapes of natives speakers seems worlds away from the standard Irish that I did learn in school and I'd have to wonder if i learned standard Irish could I even understand a native speaker? Personally, I think anyone would have great difficulty in that but an earlier responder said she had no problem in that so maybe im wrong (I hope I"m wrong) I'm not sure what the answer is to keeping it alive but I do know that Irish people want it to live they just dont necessarily know how to keep it alive. I think most IRish people who konw a little Irish almost feel embarassed trying to string a few words together and maybe failing in the process. I think people want to learn, there's just not enough good learning tools for adults to learn.

One of the greatest hopes for keeping it alive is to start up more schools and teach the young ones via the immersion process. Its the only way to learn it 'easily' from an earlier age in my opinion. I wish I had that when I was a young fella.

I dont know if I've helped or added or just rambled but its my two cents worth. hope it helps the discussion.
God Bless,
niall q

The native speakers should bring up their childern through Irish, and that's the only solution. I've been learning English for more than 20 years now, and I want to learn it and to be fluent in it. I also hear it every day in movies on TV.
But the problem is that I never speak it in my everyday life, I never have any opportunities to be told or asked anything in English and to speak it. So my English, at least when I speak, is light years away from the English of a Londoner or a New Yorker, or of a person who speaks a standard variety of English...

On the other hand, sometimes when I say something in my own language and think how I'd say that in English, I simply don't know. I also don't know how I'd explain some expressions of my language to a foreigner...

The only way is immersion in a language. But how on earth could you immerse 4 millions of English speaking Irish persons in a Gaeltacht of 28,ooo or so?
Daithí

Daithi,

I was just thinking of immersion for the school children from an early age in all parts of Ireland. Or at least the opportunity for those kind of schools alongside regular English speaking schools so that people would have a choice. I know a descent percentage of parents would do that. Irish has apparently become trendy amongst some parents and that's okay with me. I've heard they've started opening those schools in IReland and that's a great start if that's happening. I think it will be a slow process though and take generations to reverse any declinging trends.

Also, hopefully the Gaeltacht families will realize how important it is to keep the language alive in their children and hopefully the rest of us can catch up some day and learn further from the our brothers and sisters in the Gaeltacht areas.

The Gaeltacht is probably the life of the language but we need to think outside the box and stop looking at Irish in terms of gaeltacht versus non-gaeltacht. Otherwise people will think along the lines of "irish is spoken in those areas only" the Gaeltachta will take on a sort of Indian Reservation status (if they havent already done that) in the minds of those living inside them or outside them. It shouldn't become a them versus us thing. Maybe the Gealtacht needs to be a mindset in the consciousness of Irish people and our foreign friends more than any particular locations in the Western parts of Ireland?

If English speaking children who live in the Gaeltacht attend, say, an Irish language kindergarten where lots of other children speak Irish among themselves, these English speaking children should learn as good Irish as is that of the native speakers - of course, if they are encouraged by their parents and other people to speak it. They also have to develop a positive attitude towards it and this is something that has something to do with sociology...

Where I live (a town in Croatia) there's quite a large Italian community but you can't hear people speak Italian in the street. It's used mainly at home or among people who have it as their mother tongue when they speak to each other. But there are Italian kindergartens and scools of all levels which are attended by some Croatian children too. These children soon learn to speak it and you can tell them from the native speakers for the most part.
On the other hand, Italian is taught in all primary schools of this region as a non-compulsory subject and most pupils take it (from the second till the eighth grade!). However, most of them never acquire fluency.
Daithí

Síleann muintir na hÉireann gur acu féin amháin an deacracht sin: .... On the other hand, Italian is taught in all primary schools of this region as a non-compulsory subject and most pupils take it (from the second till the eighth grade!). However, most of them never acquire fluency. Daithí

Ach is é an scéal céanna ar fud na cruinne é (Voces Diversae: http://www.linguapax.org/en/newang.html )

Ní in Éirinn amháin a tharlaíonn na deacrachtaí agus an cur i gcoinne, an Dingleachas daoirsiúil sin leis an teanga shotail.

Daithí's experience locally in Croatia is good example of an aspect of language inability which is NOT unique to Ireland or to An Daingean. Whether the oppressed language is taught as a compulsory or a non-compulsory subject, it still fails against the oppressing language. Gaelscolaíocht is the only way to any measure of success.

* Ní leor Gaelscoileanna cé gur bunchlocha iad.

* Pobail úra ar leith atá de dhíth mar a mhól Bord na Gaeilge sna hochtóidí sular cuireadh ina dtost iad, mhól Ó Cadháin, Fishman an rud ceánna mar a mholann BAILE inniu.

* Chomh maith leis sin, mar a deir an tOllamh Ó Baoill, Ollscoil na Banríona, - tá 'militant intellectualism' de dhíth.

Children should be encouraged to speak Irish among themselves and to the teachers. That's how they can learn the language and develop a feeling that speaking Irish is something usual and not limited to the classroom. But there always has to be a certain number of native speakers among them. That's the point.
Learning Irish as a foreign language a couple of hours a week can't change anything.
Daithí