Hi guys,

As part of my post-graduate research into the use of the Gaelic languages outside Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man, I have set up the World Gaelic Survey. This is for anyone who speaks or is learning any Gaelic language.

So far the response has been fantastic, with people from the UK, Canada, USA, Australia, South Africa and even Slovakia responding.

Please help make this an even more useful piece of research by taking five minutes to fill it in.

then spread the word

Go raibh maith agaibh

Fergus

And here is the link (professional that I am)


http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ZyZhuSnaYFE0yrHYNOr0Ew_3d_3d

It's the first survey I see where people are asked to give their name ! I'll answer anyway, but I won't give my name (why would you need to know it?)

some questions were really bizarre. But I will fill in anything that might help the tongue!

Lughaidh,

did you study kernowak? Do you have any opinion formed on validity of its varieties? Which version would you recommend to a fresh starter?

You can add Switzerland to your list too!

I was at a bit of a loss which level of ability to fill in. I learned Irish at the university postgraduate level, so that's what I ultimately decided to put down - but I don't consider myself "fluent" yet (at least not when it comes to the spoken language.)

I also found the question about motives an interesting one. My own motivations for learning and using Irish have shifted rather drastically from what they were when I started. I wonder if that's at all typical....

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did you study kernowak? Do you have any opinion formed on validity of its varieties? Which version would you recommend to a fresh starter?

I think you've already asked me that question before, and I didn't know, and I don't know now either! I'm a bit lost in these many varieties, actually. I think the most recent ones are interesting (I don't even remember their names!). There are some information and links here: http://www.cornwall24.co.uk/module-pnForum-viewforum-forum-9.htm and here: http://kernowak.com/ . I'm sorry, I can't help you much with that aspect of Cornish...

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I was at a bit of a loss which level of ability to fill in. I learned Irish at the university postgraduate level, so that's what I ultimately decided to put down - but I don't consider myself "fluent" yet (at least not when it comes to the spoken language.)

I had that problem too. I am fluent, but I don't always understand Munster and Connaught dialects, so I hesitated to select the level of fluency just before "native speaker"...

I did not understand the question "How likely you are to achieve fluency in the Gaelic languages?". Of course, I could be able to become fluent in Gaelic and in Manx if I'd like to, but I don't study enough and my aim is not to be fluent in Manx and Gaelic, so... what could I answer ?

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my aim is not to be fluent in Manx and Gaelic, so..

Looks like something lost in translation. Would do you mean by that Lughaidh? looks very strange as it stands...

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but I don't always understand Munster and Connaught dialects

I always was under impression that the most complicated thing is to understand Ulster dialect. So you, a lucky person having mastered Ulster variety, should find Munster and Connacht dialect piece of joke!

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I think you've already asked me that question before

Ní cuimhin liom, ach má tá sé fíor - tá brón orm i ndáiríribh!

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I'm a bit lost in these many varieties

Everyone is, welcome to the club!

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I think the most recent ones

There is only one recently, at least I know of one - Kernowak which meant to be UC+UCR+RLC and opposed to KK. Its official name is KS (scryffa or whatever). So it looks starting this autumn we will have only KK and KS.

I am in touch with one person behind KS and he has emailed me some lessons, I will definitely start to look closely at it.

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my aim is not to be fluent in Manx and Gaelic, so..

Looks like something lost in translation. Would do you mean by that Lughaidh? looks very strange as it stands...

Sorry, I meant "I don't intend to be fluent in Gaelic and in Manx". Too much new vocabulary to learn...

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I always was under impression that the most complicated thing is to understand Ulster dialect.

Maybe because we speak very quickly...

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So you, a lucky person having mastered Ulster variety, should find Munster and Connacht dialect piece of joke!

There are too many things they pronounce in a different way, I think, so when they speak quickly I'm lost. But when they speak slowly, it's allright. When I was in Ulster, I had a teacher (nicknamed Tadhg an Mhargaidh, on englishirishtranslation forum), who spoke Connemara Irish and I would understand everything he said. But when I listen to interviews in Connemara Irish on TG4 for example, I've much difficulty to understand what people say (maybe because they speak more quickly and they don't pronounce clearly).

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There is only one recently, at least I know of one - Kernowak which meant to be UC+UCR+RLC and opposed to KK. Its official name is KS (scryffa or whatever). So it looks starting this autumn we will have only KK and KS.

I am in touch with one person behind KS and he has emailed me some lessons, I will definitely start to look closely at it.

Ok. What I would like to know is the main differences between the spellings and how to convert one in another. I have a grammar and 2 dictionaries of Cornish (plus a tiny one), and I think these 3 are in a different spelling. Actually it's not a big problem (when I know the words, I understand them no matter how they're spelt - Breton helps for that), but I'd like not to mix up spellings when I write in Cornish (even though I don't do often!).

Ok, short guide to Cornishes (so ironic, 100 speakers at best, and 4 varieties!).

The first thing started in the beginning of 20th century was UC. Till 1986 there was no other variety, that was THE Cornish. Whatever its shortcomings the spelling was based on actual manuscripts, so after studying UC you could reasonable well read Middle Cornish manuscripts. Late Cornish used English spelling, just like Manx does.

By 80s of the last century many people started to realise that UC might be wrong on some aspects, by that time real linguists took interest in Cornish revival and criticized UC fiercely. A period of uncertainty started.

Then on the scene pops up Mr Ken George who by some magic usage of computer (he still doesn't show how, all we know after 20 years - it was a program written in FORTRAN) claims to have established true phonology of Cornish as of 1500. He proposes complete break with spelling tradition and spelling everything phonemically. Many people being under pressure of UC (see above) think that Kernewek Kemmyn (KK - that was the name of Ken George's child) is a way forward. Without due process, hastily UC is abandoned and KK endorsed. Many people don't agree and the Great Split begins.

Some stick by UC, some (aware of its criticism) try to devise a better system. As a new basis of standardisation Late Cornish (with its English spelling) is proposed, so that is how Revived Late Cornish appears (RLC). However, because of strange and confusing looks the system never catches on widely.

Then in 1995 a linguist Nicholas Williams publishes a now famous book "Cornish Today" which thrashes KK to powder. Ken George is cornered and tweaks the spelling of many words because the criticism is impossible to refute. Nicholas Williams himself proposes going back to UC and changing some of its questionable spellings. That how Unified Cornish Revised (UCR) appears.

So how can you know which spelling is which?

RLC - looks like Manx with all those /ee/, /ea/, /oa/ not present in any other variety of Cornish. Anyway you are not likely to see much materials in RLC, as it is the toughest system to master and many people resign in despair before then can read anything.

KK - looks as something never found in any manuscripts. You will see /k/ (instead of /c/) and /kw/ (instead of /qw/), /hw/ (instead of /wh/), /eu/ (should be /ue/), /oe/ (does not exist in other varieties) all over the place. Other feature - a lot of geminated consonants. Egregious example is place name /Kammbronn/ which was always spelled /Cambron/, so that is why many people don't think KK is any good, as it would mean all name places in Cornwall have to be respelled.

UC and UCR - I don't think you can distinguish those between themselves, just some finer points have been changed. Hallmarks of this spelling system - /wh/, /qw/, /ue/, no doubled consonants.

p.s. I used // to denote spellings, daltai does not handle broken brackets for some reason, anything between <> disappears from the screen

Thanks a lot for that summary.

I'm pretty sure that KK spelling conventions have been made under the influence of some Breton spelling. Especially for hw, kw, no c, eu and some geminate consonants (mm, ll, nn, rr). I saw a grammar written in KK at my university once, and I thought that spelling had been much influenced by Breton. Maybe George wanted to bring these 2 languages closer in the orthographic point of view, given they are so close to each other in the linguistic point of view... It would take much more time to say what is similar in the grammar of these 2 languages, than to say what is different. It's a bit like Scottish Gaelic and Irish, you see.

Lughaidh,

Yes you are right, Ken George is delighted by Breton spelling having studied in Rennes and Brest. However, (now I say other people's opinion, I can't judge myself) - he has gone over board bretonising Cornish. Many native Cornish things have been brushed aside if they didn't fit Breton pattern, e.g. word /chy/ "house" has suppletive plural /treven/, but KK insists on /chyow/ - because as I understand this is what is found in Breton etc.

Cornish and Breton derive from the same source, alright - but they have split long time ago. You can't just apply simplistic formulas like Breton -d = Cornish -s, and just import Breton words by busload. Anyway Breton has a fair share of French influence, and Cornish had English influence - and that makes Cornish at times closer to Welsh, than to Breton. If the whole point is to use Cornish phonetics on Breton grammar and words - I don't see any point in Revived Cornish. People would be better off studying Breton rightaway, ersatz is never as good as original.

Yeah I agree with you.

Houses = tier / tiez in Breton.

Maybe he's chosen "chyow" just because it's more regular...

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Maybe he's chosen "chyow" just because it's more regular...

To be completely frank - he invented the word, based on certain logic, but invented nevertheless. The only attested form is /treven/ (singulative of tref).

Was reading a bit about Cornish last night in reviving the celtic languages, still havent got my head completely around it.

I think Irish speakers should learn Cornish (a bit of it at least) out of solidarity. kernowak community is so minuscle that every single person counts.

Well, I'm afraid most Irish speakers don't care at all for the other Celtic languages...

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daltai does not handle broken brackets for some reason, anything between <> disappears from the screen

<does it?>

< & > look like html delimiters to the board program.

FERGUS

An bhfuil sonraí teagmhála agat?

Do you have any contact details?