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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (September-October) » Archive through September 24, 2007 » Cúpla Riail Gramadaí « Previous Next »

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Cathal
Member
Username: Cathal

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 06:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There's just a few rules of grammar that have been annoying me recently. I know the difference between lagiolraí and tréaniolraí, but are there any specific rules for forming the nominative plural? For example, "marcach" and "bealach" are both in the 1st declension, but the plurals are "marcaigh" and "bealaí" respectively. Are there any rules or guidelines that dictate this difference?

Also, if a phrase in the Genitive comes within another genitive construction, is every noun just placed in the genitive? For example, "the man's coat" is "cóta an fhir", but would "the colour of the man's coat" be "dath an chóta an fhir", with both cóta and fear being in the tuiseal ginideach?

As well, I know about the Tuiseal Tabharthach, but is it still widely in use, or is it a more archaic form than standard use?

Go raibh maith agaibh!
Cathal

Níor Theanga Oifigiúil í Seo!!!

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Mbm
Member
Username: Mbm

Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 08:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For your first question, there is no rule and no way to predict the irregular plural of "bealach". The regular plural pattern for the 1st declension would seem to dictate that the plural of "bealach" should be "bealaigh", but it isn't. It's "bealaí", which is an exception and you need to memorize it individually.

Your second question, if you have a phrase containing a noun plus an article plus another noun in the genitive, such as "cóta an fhir", and you want to put this whole phrase in the genitive, then the way to do it is as follows: (1) leave the first noun in the nominative, (2) aspirate the first noun if possible, and (3) do NOT place an article before the first noun. Result: "dath chóta an fhir", the colour of the man's coat. More information here: http://www.cainteoir.com/Gramadach.aspx?Abhar=ainmfhocal_alt_ainmfhocal

The answer to your question about the dative case is quite simple, the dative case is not widely used and yes, it may sound a little archaic to some speakers. Standard Irish allows it but does not require it.

Mo bhlag sa seanchló Gaelach:
http://mbm.dotnet11.hostbasket.com/Cainteoir/

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Cathal
Member
Username: Cathal

Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 05:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh míle maith a't, is mór an chabhair é sin!!

Do Thír
Do Theanga
Do Rogha

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 1059
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 11:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Re tuiseal tabharthach - it exists and is widely used, just its form is very often the same as tuiseal ainmneach. When you see things like "an t-im", but "ar an im" you should realize that "im" in the first case and "im" in the second case although unaltered in form are not the same, as mutation is different. Thus, even if there were no forms of dative different from nominative - you would still say that there dative in Irish.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Mbm
Member
Username: Mbm

Post Number: 169
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 04:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, that's another and equally valid analysis of the same phenomenon.

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Cathal
Member
Username: Cathal

Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 08:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

'Sea, bhí's a'm gurb ionann an Tuiseal Ainmneach agus Tabharthach go minic, ní raibh ann nach raibh a fhios a'm faoi úsáid na hUimhreach Iolra!!

Do Thír
Do Theanga
Do Rogha



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