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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (July-August) » Archive through August 04, 2007 » Basic translation « Previous Next »

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Teanga
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Username: Teanga

Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 02:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

How would I say in Irish?

''I will knock over my sand castle tomorrow''

Thanks.

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Teanga
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Username: Teanga

Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 02:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Leagfaidh mé trasna mo chaiseal gaineamh amárach

How is that??

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 401
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 02:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Good, but you don't need the word "trasna" in there. That's "over" in the sense of "across," "to the other side of." Knocking something over is more-or-less the same as knocking it down - the Irish for either of those is just "leag", with no preposition needed:

Leagfaidh mé mo chaiseal gainimh amárach.

("Gaineamh" changes to "gainimh" because it's in the genitive case: a castle of sand.)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Teanga
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Username: Teanga

Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 03:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks

But I would like to say ''I will knock [b]OVER[/b] my sand castle tomorrow.

How would I put over there?

What word could be used?

Thanks again!

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 402
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 04:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Honest, there isn't a word to put there. The verb "leag" takes care of it.

English does this quite a lot - bring in prepositions and spatial adverbs, but use them idiomatically with no spatial meaning whatsoever. Consider how the word up is used in these English sentences:
The boy woke up early Christmas morning.
The boy ran up the stairs two at a time.

In the second sentence up has a real physical meaning; in the first one it's strictly an idiom. There's no real reason that he woke up rather than around or out; he just woke up because in English we say that people "wake up".

Likewise, the over in knocking something over is a different animal from the over in jumping over the creek. One of them has a spatial meaning, and the other one's just an idiom. The idiomatic one shouldn't be expected to translate word-for-word.

Abigail

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Teanga
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Username: Teanga

Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So other than the trasna word, my translation is fine?

Thanks. :)

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 220
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 07:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>snip< ... typo

(Message edited by domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on July 25, 2007)

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 221
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 07:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Leagfaidh mé mo chaiseal gainimh amárach.

One quick question. Why is the word gainimh not also lenited? I thought the rule required lenition for genetive... Thanks!

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Teanga
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Username: Teanga

Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 07:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can someone tell me what does ''Genetive'' mean?

Thank you.

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 677
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 08:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Probably not much help, but for a cut and dry definition of genitive, see:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=genitive

Ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scoilbe.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 405
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 08:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

So other than the trasna word, my translation is fine?


Just about! The only other thing you missed was putting "gaineamh" into the genitive case ("gainimh.")


The genitive case corresponds to several different things in English: the two biggies are possession (i.e. 's on the end of a noun) and the preposition "of."

Mar shampla:
a man's hat = hata fir (fir is the genitive of fear)
a bottle of wine = buidéal fíona (fíona is the genitive of fíon)

It's a good rule of thumb that whenever you have two nouns together in Irish, the second one probably ought to be in the genitive.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1781
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 09:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Why is the word gainimh not also lenited?

Because the noun it describes is masculine.

fear gainimh
bean ghainimh

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Diolun
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Username: Diolun

Post Number: 21
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 09:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

dia daoibh gach duine, conas ata sibh? is mise matt anseo,agus ta me i mo chonai i gCeanada, ta me ag foghlaim gaelige anois.. agus, taim tar eis bheith ag foghlaim le fada, silim go bhfuil me ag ag dul chun cinn anois.ceart go leor!
slan go foill.

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Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 407
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 09:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

One quick question. Why is the word gainimh not also lenited? I thought the rule required lenition for genetive... Thanks!


Oh, if only life were that simple!

Here's a good way to look at it: Lenition always* happens because of the immediately preceding word.

So if the preceding word is another noun, whether lenition happens or not is determined by the gender, case and number of that preceding noun.
If the preceding word is an article, lenition is determined by the gender, case and number of that article.
If the preceding word is a possessive pronoun, lenition is determined by the gender, person and number of that pronoun.
(and so on)

This is true for everything*, not just genitives. In no* case does lenition depend on the gender, case or number of the noun in question itself.

The alternative - and this is the way I've always seen it taught for whatever reason - I don't think it makes sense! - is to present a list of "Rules for Lenition in the Genitive". It's the same information, of course, but organization gets horrendously complicated: in the genitive singular, if you do have the article, then it matters what gender the second word is; if you don't have the article, then it matters what gender the first word is.

Lenition after a Noun
nominative singular: masculine doesn't lenite, feminine does*
Ex.: buidéal fíona, gloine fhíona
nominative plural: lenition after slender consonants (i.e. masculine nouns with a weak plural)
Ex.: buidéil fhíona, gloiní fíona
genitive singular: lenition after slender consonants
Ex.: praghas an bhuidéil fhíona, praghas na gloine fíona
genitive plural: no lenition
Ex.: praghas na mbuidéal fíona, praghas na ngloiní fíona

Lenition after the Definite Article
nominative singular: masculine is an which doesn't lenite, feminine is an which does lenite
Ex.: an fear, an bhean
nominative plural: na for both genders, no lenition
Ex.: na fir, na mná
genitive singular: masculine is an which lenites, feminine is na which doesn't lenite
Ex.: cóta an fhir, cóta na mná
genitive plural: na for both genders, eclipsis
Ex.: cótaí na bhfear, cótaí na mban

Lenition after Possessive Pronouns
1st person singular: mo which lenites
Ex.: mo theach
2nd person singular: do which lenites
Ex.: do theach
3rd person singular: masculine is a which lenites, feminine is a which doesn't lenite
Ex.: a theach, a teach
1st person plural: ár which eclipses
Ex.: ár dteach
2nd person plural: bhur which eclipses
Ex.: bhur dteach
3rd person plural: a which eclipses
Ex.: a dteach

(* = not quite true; there are exceptions.)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Teanga
Member
Username: Teanga

Post Number: 8
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 04:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks very much Abigail, its a beautiful language isn't it ? :D

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 04:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

And exceptions to exceptions ...except on Sundays, of course (or Wednesday afternoons in Tír Chonaill), or when the first word ends in d, n, t or l and the second word starts with d, t or s, or when there's an r (or a suspended genitive) in the month. Or just for the fun of it :o)



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