Hi,

I'm thinking about starting to learn Irish with M.O Ss. "Learning Irish" but, since I'm a complete newcomer to the language, I have some questions for you. I read that the book teaches the Connamara dialect, that is not the standard version of the language. Will it be possible for me to read Irish poublications after completing the course. In which variant of the language are books written (for ex. the Irish translation of Harry Potter)? What about the language of the radio and the TV? It's very important to me to be able to talk to people (in this case this book would be just perfect) and to read publications. Shpuld I use something else?

Then I saw that there exist two dictionaries, I don't remember the titles, one is Irish-English and the other one is English-Irish. For Which variant are they? A lot of questions, I know....I'm sorry but, as you can see, for the moment I'm really confused.
Please, help me...........:-))
Thank you
Francesco
Pisa - Italy

There's three main dialects of Irish: Ulster, Connacht and Munster.

The "Standard" came in and standarised the spelling (e.g. buidhe became buí) for all the dialects. The problem though is that the Standard went too far and made a watered-down version of Irish which is about as mongrel as a street dog. Things like the dative case which are very much alive in Irish language in all dialects, are non-existant in the standard. Plus, ridiculously enough, new grammatical rules were brought in, while others were abandoned.

The Standard is very much a bastard child, and very few have much respect for it.

But to answer your question, if you learn any dialect of Irish you'll have no problem reading government documents and so forth. Quite the contrary, if you learn just the Standard, you'll have a little difficulty reading any of the dialects. There's actually quite a few government documents that are written in Munster Irish: http://acts.oireachtas.ie/ga.act.1927.0023.5.html

There are three dialects - But one language. I'd recommend going with Conamara / Connacht Irish as you have suggested above.

It is the predominant dialect of the irish language tv station tg4 (www.tg4.ie)
and of Raidió na Gaeltachta the irish language radio station.

If you need any help along the way, please feel free to post here and myself and others will be more than happy to help

Maith thú!

While we're making suggestions, I'd go with Munster Irish. Connacht Irish is the more simplified of the three, which is good if that's what you're after, but it's not to my taste. Ulster Irish is the odd one out, the most different, but it does have its attractions. Here they are listed in descending order of my preference:

1: Munster
2: Ulster
3: Connacht

If you have no personal reason to show preference to one dialect over the other, I'd go with Connemara for it's relation to the standard as well as being a bridge of sorts between the other two.

However, that book, while great for reference, is organized such as to make learning from it (especially without a class and teacher) very difficult. honestly, you might not do too badly to pick up Buntús Cainte (standard) and start with that. Once you have a good conversational grip, heavier grammatical stuff like Learning Irish will be easier to extract benefit from.

Ulster Irish is the odd one out

I don't agree with you. The oddest is Munster Irish, especially its archaic morphology and its rather simplified pronunciation (less phonemes than Ulster and Connaught dialects).

Don't let 'em kid you. The Caighdeán isn't as bad as all that. ;-)

It's true that it does get a bad rap in certain circles, mostly composed of learners and linguists. In my experience (which I admit isn't too broad) people who're using Irish in their daily lives don't seem to get too worked up over it. They speak their own dialect (there's no such thing as a standard spoken form - the Caighdeán is a written standard only) and when they write, there are a few things they have to write a little bit differently than they speak. Not such a big deal really.

Of course each of the dialects has its quirks, and it's worth learning as much as you can about all of them. I certainly wouldn't suggest you pick one and completely ignore the rest.

Honestly, unless you're predisposed to a particular dialect, here's what I'd recommend. Forget about choosing a dialect for now. Find classes in your area, or failing that, find a book that seems like its teaching style will work for you. Some learners thrive on rules and grammatical explanations; some prefer to learn phrases and sentences first and imitate those until the grammar soaks into their heads. Find what works for you.

Then learn whatever dialect, at whatever level of written standardization, your teacher or your book is using.

If you decide that absolutely standard written Irish is important to you, or that absolutely pure dialectal Irish is, or even that you fancy another dialect altogether, there'll be plenty of time later to set that straight. Your goal right now seems to be to get a basic grounding in the language, so you can start talking to people and reading stuff. That can be done in any dialect.

Abigail

Yes, you should definitely go with the caighdeán; it is the most consistent. And pay little attention to those who claim that any one dialect is superior to the others. That silly provincialism has dogged the language since the beginning of revival efforts, and benfits nobody.

go with the caighdeán; it is the most consistent

Why?

However, you're right to say that no dialect is superior to the others. All dialects are as interesting.

quote:

Yes, you should definitely go with the caighdeán; it is the most consistent.

Complete and utter total bullshit.

Learning a language is very similar to fighting. Sports fighters train day after day for years in the gym, learning and drilling techniques. They learn and improve a lot this way. But the real experience comes from the time they spend in the ring, where they actually have to pull everything together and just work off-the-cuff, no cue cards. They've to come under fire, take hits and still persevere and work with the scraps they're given. A fighter is judged not by how many years he's been training, but rather how many fights he's had.

I am a native speaker of English. To draw an analogy with our fighter above, there would've been no point in throwing me into the ring when I was 10 as my Irish was so poor that I just wouldn't have survived. Until the point where you can survive and compete, it's best to keep the head down learning bits of grammar, vocabulary, idioms, etc.. However there comes a point when you have to leave the nest, a point where you have to put the grammatical book down and simply converse with people and let the mistakes flow and let them unravel themselves naturally. You need to get a feel for the language which simply cannot be taught.

When you finally do this, you'll find that some grammatical rules will be abandoned (e.g. "who" exclusively instead of "whom"), or you may even find that you've to adopt new grammatical rules. Examples of the latter would be Munster's usage of "seo" Vs "so", or how they say "chuas" instead of "chuaigh mé", or "ón ngréin" instead of "ón ngrian".

The Standard of a language can be judged on many fronts. One front would be its similarity to any given dialect or group of dialects. Another front would be its "watering up" or "watering down". An example of "watering up" would be the English standard, where a distinction is made between "shall" and "will"; this distinction however is ignored in the vast majority of English dialects. An example of "watering down" would be the Irish standard, where we have "sa bhróg" instead of "sa bhróig". To make a comparison that English-speaking people here can relate to, this usage of "bróg" would be similar to us saying "Him went" instead of "He went".

To give a real life example of "studying" versus "doing", take our own Domhnall here. Domhnall's Irish has vastly improved since he first started posting here... but his prowess doesn't reak of grammatical obsession, but rather there's a hint of having a feel for the language, a feel for the language which you can only get from speaking it, from getting the hang of it. I myself might know a fair amount of Irish grammar inside out, but I lack the feel for it that some people have here.

Another great example is Abigail. Abigail's Irish is very free flowly and unhindered by thoughts of grammatical precision, her feel for the language is quite evident and refreshing.

Why does the Standard piss me off? First thing I have to mention is the whole situation of "sa tsráid, sa siúcra" -- it's just plain bastard. Really, who would come up with a standard for English and tell us to say "I ain't" and "You isn't" in the same paragraph?! Sure, these forms exist in some dialects of English, but certainly not in same dialect. No speaker of Irish can read both "sa tsráid" and "sa siúcra" in the same paragraph and not get a little itchy in the throat.

The second thing that pisses me off about the dialect is the LIES it contains, complete and utter total LIES. "sa bhróg" won't be said or written by anyone who can say more than goo goo gaa gaa in the Irish language -- YET the Standard says that this is the way it's done?!

Third thing that pisses me off is the lack of preparation which the Standard provides to any learner. Find someone who got an A1 in leaving cert honours Irish... and now get them to read a page of Munster Irish -- at best they'll puke a little bit into their mouth. They're simply not prepared to deal with the REAL language.

So basically the Standard is a pile of shit, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. If you want to learn Irish, then pick a dialect. First step is to light a big fire in your back garden and burn any books that mention the Caighdeán.

There's no need for a Irish Standard. Anyone who's half-decent at the language should be able to read and listen to all three dialects.

Gaoluinn Abú!

some points

1. Is it true to say as someone said above that Connaught Irish is a "bridge" between Munster and Ulster. I would like some examples of where Connaught occupied the mid-way point between the two.

2. I don't think Abigail's advice to ignore the dialect question is quite right. If you spend one year learning from one book, and then realise you want to study something else, you could find out like I have that you have wasted a year and set back your learning by one year, and have to start from scratch in another book. I think you should aim to understand the issues surrounding the dialects, and then make up your own mind based on what you want (what did your ancestors speak? are you interested in Ulster songs? Munster literature? becoming an EU translator one day?) and do that from the beginning. Life is too short to be wasting whole years of it.

Is it true to say as someone said above that Connaught Irish is a "bridge" between Munster and Ulster. I would like some examples of where Connaught occupied the mid-way point between the two.
I've heard that too, but I can't think of a grammatical basis for it just now. Maybe there is one...

What does happen is that most Irish speakers (natives included) will speak their own dialect, and be much more comfortable with one of the remaining two than with the other. Ulster/Connemara, Connemara/Ulster, Connemara/Munster and Munster/Connemara seem to be the usual combinations. I don't know anybody (although no doubt there are a few) who's a Munster speaker with secondary affinity for Ulster, or vice versa. Historically I imagine this was true for geographical reasons - Ulster and Munster were the farthest separated, so speakers of those would have had less contact.


If you spend one year learning from one book, and then realise you want to study something else, you could find out like I have that you have wasted a year and set back your learning by one year, and have to start from scratch in another book.

I've done the same thing! In my case I started out with Ulster books, then switched to Connemara a year later.

I didn't find my Ulster year "wasted" though. I learned an awful lot of the basics that year - verb first, adjective after the noun, lenition and eclipsis after the article, tá vs. is, prepositional pronouns, and on and on. Most of the things I learned didn't change a bit when I switched dialects. That's what I mean when I say the basics can be usefully acquired in any dialect, no matter what you ultimately end up speaking.

quote:

Is it true to say as someone said above that Connaught Irish is a "bridge" between Munster and Ulster.

NO, it is not. It is one of those misperceptions (the other one that CO is based on Munster Irish - what a rubbish!) that is doing rounds in community and is accepted as truism, although nobody has supplied any evidence for that.

As it stands now - I would say that Conamara is much closer to Ulster than to Munster. So maybe Lughaidh is right in saying that it is Munster who is the odd one out.

quote:

I don't think Abigail's advice to ignore the dialect question is quite right.

Support but for different reason. I would never agree that studying any dialect is waste of time (Abigail - I am with you on that), but all learners should make informed choices when choosing dialect that there are no regrets afterwards. And the most important reason - learner is sooner in dialectal variation than he can realise it. Remember the very basic "Dia dhuit" vs 'Dia duit' dilemma. It is exactly lack of understanding why "Dia daoibh" must be pronounced [jiv`] that has blocked me for one year. I had to delve into all this dialectal variation to emerge from it ready to tackle Irish head on. It is important to understand what is your dialect's pronunciation and what is not and being able to sort out only those pronunciations that are relevant for you.

(Message edited by Róman on June 23, 2007)

what I meant by saying Connemara was a "bridge" -
at least in pronunciation if not some grammar as well, Connemara is more similar to Munster than Munster is to Ulster. Likewise, Connemara is more similar to Ulster than Ulster is to Munster. My experience is that the other dialects aren't quite as alien to a learner of Connemara as Ulster would be to a Munster learner and vice versa. There's no way to quantify that, it's just my experience.


Another point that aided me in my choice:
When I was learning French in school, the books taught a standard dialect. When my brother learned Spanish in school, his books taught a standard dialect. When others learn English as a second language, the books teach a standard dialect (either US or UK depending on the location of the learner). Any other language I can think of the books for learners (particularly beginners) teaches some form of literary or academic standard. Hence, I have no qualms recommending the CO to someone just starting out.

quote:

When I was learning French in school, the books taught a standard dialect.

You seem to miss something, really. "Standard" French in essence is Parisian French, and "Standard" English is Oxford English. Those are influential, living dialects that you can bump into while in those countries. Parisian French was not concocted by some academics by taking a drop from Provence, a bit from Normandy and some German words to make the mix alien enough to all native speakers.

"Standard" Irish is completely different story. It has been done in secrecy by small cotterie of scholars who were rather interested in vain and glory than language restoration.

quote:

at least in pronunciation if not some grammar as well, Connemara is more similar to Munster

Any proof of that? I know more examples of Connacht-Ulster affinity:

Phonetics:

- L, N sound preservation
- lack of diphthongisation in words like "ceann", "dall"
- pronunciation of word internal -bh-, -mh-
- pronouncing word final -igh as [j]
- slender d, t realised as affricates
- stress firmly on the first syllable
- front pronunciation of "á"

Grammar:

- analytical forms in verbs
- lack of noun declension in plural
- copula forms

Now, I know only one point on which Conamara is closer to Munster than to Ulster:

- prep + article demands urú as a rule

Francesco, has all of this answered your questions?

You also asked about dictionaries... you might want to try Foclóir Póca or Foclóir Scoile.

Foclóir Póca is offered through Daltaí:

http://www.daltai.com/siopa/siopa.html

And both are offered here as well:

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/index.php?cPath=46_25

A Lughaidh,I think the Caighdeán is the most consistent as far as spelling and pronunciation are concerned. I think the dialects have their own little nuances. Connemara Irish, for example, has a lot of diphthongization which makes the simplest terms difficult to recognize. I don't believe that the others are easier; in fact, I think they're harder because they're more heavily accented.

What in the world are you ranting about a Fhir na mbróg? As others have stated, and as I know from studying other languages, it is best to begin with the standard and progress from there. I know Irish, and have no problems understanding any dialect, but I understand the difficulties with them from teaching Irish.
Your use of rude and sophomoric language does not make your argument any more convincing. Moreover, the fighter analogy is baseless: what in the world does learning to throw and avoid punches, train reflexes, etc. have in common with language acquisition?
The only thing of merit that you wrote concerns Abigail. Indeed, she is great, and she speaks the language superbly: I have heard her. And I have spoken to many other Americans who are fully fluent and a credit to the language.

(Message edited by admin on June 23, 2007)

A Lughaidh,I think the Caighdeán is the most consistent as far as spelling and pronunciation are concerned.

As far as I know, the Caighdeán has no fixed pronounciation. Tha Caighdeán is more a spelling and grammar thing.


I think the dialects have their own little nuances. Connemara Irish, for example, has a lot of diphthongization which makes the simplest terms difficult to recognize.

Munster Irish has much more diphtongs than Connemara one...

Roman, finish my sentence that you quote, I said, "at least in pronunciation if not some grammar as well, Connemara is more similar to Munster THAN MUNSTER IS TO ULSTER."

As for the dialects - while the French in my book would indeed be called Parisian French, and comes mainly from the Parisian dialect it is not the French you will hear in everyday use on the streets of Paris any more than American Standard English is the everyday language of the streets of the Midwest. It's "cleaned up," "regularized" and more rigid than people use in their everyday speech.

This sort of dialect-pandering is what prompted the CO to borrow more from all the dialects than other languages standards. Indeed, it would probably have been best if they'd just picked the largest group, or the one with the strongest literary tradition and developed a standard off that dialect alone. But they didn't, and seeing the divisions people create along dialect lines it's no wonder why. Pick one dialect - ANY one dialect and teach the damn thing. Print all the books in it - the textbooks, the newspapers...broadcast televesion and radio in it but for God's sake be consistent. In the end, it doesn't matter which one is chosen but this inconsistency from one book to the next and one teacher to the next causes no end of frustration to students and I dare say results in more potential gaeilgeoirí giving up along the way. If the chief hinderance to Irish in the 20th century was public opinion viewing it as backward and rural, I firmly believe the main problem in the 21st will be this lack of consistency in materials.

I'm sorry for the rant, but it makes me tear my hair to see such a nonsense issue become so virulent espeically in front of a student seeking help. And for those who'll say, "oh but it DOES matter, the CO is artificial" I submit the following: Spanish is probably the most studied second language in the US for english speakers. Why? Well people wanting to deal with the immigrant communities from Mexico, Puerto Rico and other New-World, Spanish speaking countries. What is the dialect most taught? Castillan. While that may not be an "artificial" dialect, it is farther removed from the "useful* dialects" of Spanish as the CO is from the "authentic" dialects of Irish.

Learn it. Use it. Spread it.

(*'useful' being defined as what most coincides with the above-stated goals of the learners)

quote:

What in the world are you ranting about a Fhir na mbróg?

"A Fhear na mBróg" is ea tuiseal garimeach m'ainm.

quote:

As others have stated, and as I know from studying other languages, it is best to begin with the standard and progress from there.

And who makes that Standard? Tom? Dick? Harry? Are you gonna let a lemming decide?

quote:

I know Irish, and have no problems understanding any dialect, but I understand the difficulties with them from teaching Irish.

You teach all the dialectal idiosyncrasies, it's not rocket science.

quote:

Your use of rude and sophomoric language does not make your argument any more convincing. Moreover, the fighter analogy is baseless: what in the world does learning to throw and avoid punches, train reflexes, etc. have in common with language acquisition?

I see you didn't get what I was getting at.

quote:

The only thing of merit that you wrote concerns Abigail. Indeed, she is great, and she speaks the language superbly: I have heard her. And I have spoken to many other Americans who are fully fluent and a credit to the language.

Give yourself a name and I might bother to debate with you.

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on June 23, 2007)

Diphthongization was used by your anonymous writer. Now who would enjoy using a word like that and stirring trouble? Mmmm
Ná bac leis.
I take the middle ground here. The standard Irish can give you the skills to understand all dialects and you can choose to immerse yourself in a dialect of your choice when you get familiar enough with the differences to decide what suits you best.
I would say that while we are passionate about the best way to learn a language, my view is always that it should be fun and if we start using CAPS too much it may sound less than fun and more like conflict.
Bíodh craic againn agus muid ag foghlaim a chairde.
Belated happy solstice to all.

I have to admit I'm wondering too now! Whoever it is, that's awfully sweet of you to say so.
(You too, a Fhir... assuming "unhindered by thoughts of grammatical precision" isn't just nice-speak for "grammatically all over the map"?)

Did we meet at the Daltaí weekend this spring then? I'm curious because I haven't spoken Irish with too many people except that weekend, or people here at Notre Dame.

That weekend made an incredible difference in my Irish. I've never spoken with so many people in Irish, on such a wide range of subjects, and had it feel so normal. By the end of it, I had the feeling I might actually become fluent some day - that it wasn't unreasonable to hope so, even if I don't manage to spend time in Ireland.

Nuair a d'fhill mé ar Notre Dame an chéad sheachtain eile, tar éis comhdhála mata i Minnesota, dúirt mo mhúinteoir liom gur airigh sí "an t-iarloinnir" orm fós ón deireadh seachtaine sin.

quote:

Indeed, it would probably have been best if they'd just picked the largest group, or the one with the strongest literary tradition and developed a standard off that dialect alone.

That is something I fully subscribe to! If that were done in due time - no dialect flame and arguments had any place now. Alas! Unfortunately they didn't polish something real and existing - they made a mish-mash that does not have neither prestige nor feeling of correctness among natives.

No, I don't get much of what you're getting at a Fhir na mbróg. Maybe it makes sense: it just doesn't to me. Are you sure that "A fhir...." is not an tuiseal gairmeach? No, it isn't rocket science, but Irish is difficult enough to learn without going into all the regional variations, and unfortunately, I'm not expert enough in Donegal or Munster Irish that I could point out what all the differences are between them and Connemara Irish. I won't give myself a name, but the one I was given is Micheál Ó Tnúthail. And I don't care to debate anything further with you on this forum.
A Lughaidh, if Munster Irish has more diphthongs than the Connemara variety, well then it's probably even more difficult for a beginner. As for the Caighdeán pronunciation, I think what you would hear on Buntús Cainte might be considered standard, and is probably closest to Connaught Irish.
A Chaitríona, henceforth I will call the term 'défhoghraíocht' so as not to stir up trouble.
A Abigail, we were in the same class at a Daltaí weekend, but I don't believe we actually spoke to each other.

quote:

if Munster Irish has more diphthongs than the Connemara variety

Tá, go deimhin.

quote:

well then it's probably even more difficult for a beginner

Ní fíor duit. It is much easier for anyone (whose native language is not Irish) to pronounce diphthong in certain position than to pronounce and hear in other people's mounthes the difference of [n] vs [N] and [l] vs [L]. So diphthongue is a nice way around to keep phonematic distinction and avoid difficult sounds.

How many learners pronounce "geal" vs "geall" correctly? I bet - quite few. However as I say myself [g`al] and [g`aul] - my pronunciation is no worse that the one of Munster natives in these words.

Francesco,

Ciao.

I know that a few people are trying to set up an Irish class in Sarzana and Carrara sometime this summer.

Look out for them and watch this space.

Don't worry about the dialect thing!!!

quote:

No, I don't get much of what you're getting at a Fhir na mbróg. Maybe it makes sense: it just doesn't to me. Are you sure that "A fhir...." is not an tuiseal gairmeach?

It works like the genitive:

the man's coat = cóta an fhir
the postman's coat = cóta fhear an phoist

quote:

No, it isn't rocket science, but Irish is difficult enough to learn without going into all the regional variations, and unfortunately, I'm not expert enough in Donegal or Munster Irish that I could point out what all the differences are between them and Connemara Irish.

What has to be realised though is that everything is a regional variation. "shall" and "whom" are peculiararities native to Oxford for instance, regardless of how heavy a rubber stamp they're given by the English Standard. They exist in a few other English dialects also, but for the majority of dialects it's "will" and "who" exlusively.

quote:

I won't give myself a name, but the one I was given is Micheál Ó Tnúthail. And I don't care to debate anything further with you on this forum.

Very defensive language. I've no desire to attack you, but I do intend to attack your idea that the Caighdeán is anything more than a bastard.

quote:

A Lughaidh, if Munster Irish has more diphthongs than the Connemara variety, well then it's probably even more difficult for a beginner. As for the Caighdeán pronunciation, I think what you would hear on Buntús Cainte might be considered standard, and is probably closest to Connaught Irish.

There's no such thing as the Caighdeán, it's no a living dialect, nor is it an extinct dialect, so there's no worth in debating its pronunciation -- in fact there's nothing much at all about it worth debating. I've more respect for the extinct Roscommon Irish.

Hi, I was just trying to get registered to take part in your discussion again. I met some difficulty and I've just been mailing Caoimhin about that .
here's what I wanted to add :
I think (but FnmB , you don't agree with that) that a standard language with a standard grammar is compulsory if you want to understand how a language "works", and if you want to remind you of something !!! That's why I like "Teach yourself Irish" because I understand what I am trying to learn... ,
On the other hand, I'm not to keen on Buntus Cainte (though I think it is a reference!) because , with such a method, you learn sentences an sometimes the link between two grammatical constructions is not evident (and not explained!). So I think it sets your memory more than your understanding in action, and as far as I'm concerned , I need to understand things to be able to remember them.

The dialects point : I learnt Munster irish when I was a little boy and I forgot A LOT of it. But, I could say that's part of my conscient memory!!! I explain myself: I THINK I forgot a lot , and , in fact, I am really incapable of speaking correct Munster Irish , but I tried to learn another dialect (ULSTER)and I found it tremendously hard . Even if I practically forgot all of my Munster Irish , I have some difficulty in learning another dialect! . Munster seems familiar to me . So, I certainly have sort of a cerebral print ("Munster print", I should say)and I cannot do otherwise!
What I mean is : it is really difficult to go from one dialect to another, so if you are a beginner, choose one dialect and try to stick to it till you are VERY VERY good at Irish.
But now the question is : which dialect ? and I must say I absolutely can't answer to that ...

quote:

I think (but FnmB , you don't agree with that) that a standard language with a standard grammar is compulsory if you want to understand how a language "works".

Tá fáilte romhat anseo a Jhéin!

What I argue though is that there's no such thing as grammar. "Grammar" is an attempt to reverse-engineer a language in an attempt to see how it works -- when in actuality, it needn't follow any rules. It's like taking apart a car's engine only to find that the water floats above the oil because the laws of physics don't apply in there. I can give you dozens of examples where typical grammars simply can't explain what's going on in a particular sentence. I can give even more examples of where these grammars try to pretentiously correct the speech of native speakers. However grammar can be useful for two kinds of people:

1) Learners: They can try make patterns and figure out how to say stuff without having to simply ask a native speaker
2) Posh gits: They can hyper-correct what they say so as to make it more "proper". This, however, frequently backfires.

There are quite a few things in Irish that I just wouldn't bother dissecting, such as:

1) Usage of emphatic pronouns: mise, tusa...
2) Use of cleavage: "Fear mór a chonaic mé" Vs "Chonaic mé fear mór".

It's far easier to let the person get a feel for these things themselves than to try dissect them. The first one I mentioned, emphatic pronouns, simply can't be dissected nor taught, the learner can only get a feel for it. Similarly with the second one.